Match-Up Rediscussion: Fox

I played one last night and I'm sure that dair is the way to go in this match up.

Pharaoh.Pch Kyon said:

I played one last night and I'm sure that dair is the way to go in this match up.

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Even though I agree at low %'s dair would be the way to go but would highly expected from Peaches.

We can counter this tatic with SH Fair which will reach a peach floating over us.

I'm pretty sure Fox outcamps Peach.

Of course I don't mean that dair is the only thing we do in this match up. That would be stupid. We also have short hop dair lol
Gimps are also very good and don't seem hard to do ether since float nair at the ledge is beast. Wish it was melee when you can use bair insted lol

Pharaoh.Pch Kyon said:

Of course I don't mean that dair is the only thing we do in this match up. That would be stupid. We also have short hop dair lol
Gimps are also very good and don't seem hard to do ether since float nair at the ledge is beast. Wish it was melee when you can use bair insted lol

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No I quite understand Dair isn't the only thing that you guys would do. Like the discussion way back like in late 08 or something I was basically restating Fox's Fair combats most of peach's aerials. (or the harder to land Bair)

Also gimping Fox's is not as easy as most would think. If we are above and offstage we can shinestall to mix-up our recovery,another common thing most people believe is Fox ALWAYS has to illision on stage. If we are below and offstage Rising Fair usually does the job to leave it up to us to either prolong our recovery with some shinestal or illision onstage or to the ledge or FireFox onstage (which is not a good idea) or to the ledge.

I'm not saying peach won't gimp Fox but we do have a versitale recovery.

Now I do believe gimping is Peach's favor but, peach struggles with vertical recovering right? Dsmash or a good drillshine offstage should mean bye-bye Peach. Now the problem for us would be your horizontal recovery. I say that the most viable thing for Fox do to do is to Hard Nair if you are at higher %'s or Soft Nair Peach if at lower %'s, I don't considered Bair to be viable as a gimp move it could hit but it's tooooooooooo situtional.

I read on the first discussion that Peach outcamps Fox? How? No Fox SHOULD EVER REFLECT the turnip if it can PS'd relatively easy at mid-range, also we own the long-range camp because of the obvious laser reach.

Last thing before I let you respond, the common Utilt string is two Utilts before you guys can Nair out. It puts Peach in a bad position to expect to Nair if Fox starts to Utilt because the second Utilt if you Nair we shield and follow up with a grab or OoS, if you airdodge a stuffed SH Nair ***** Airdodges, if you just DI away without doing anything that's just dumb, if DJ will just follow you....you see where this is going it's just like if you where tech chasing you but it's in midair.

Ok I'm done and waiting for your response.

Thanks again for doing this Yaaay, my workload is nearly coming to end (thank god)
Lets get some outside input guys!

Fox's lasers don't force approaches cause they have no hitstun
And thus, the trap is set


Being slightly more serious, Fox is pretty fast and has a very strong, very slidy Up Smash that needs to be watched out for. His Dair will often put you in a very vunerable spot if he manages to hit you completety with it so do your best to avoid that

Erm...use Turnips, Dair, Fair and the occasional Bair? Yea I don't know a right lot about Fox

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:

Thanks again for doing this Yaaay, my workload is nearly coming to end (thank god)
Lets get some outside input guys!

Fox's lasers don't force approaches cause they have no hitstun
And thus, the trap is set

Being slightly more serious, Fox is pretty fast and has a very strong, very slidy Up Smash that needs to be watched out for. His Dair will often put you in a very vunerable spot if he manages to hit you completety with it so do your best to avoid that

Erm...use Turnips, Dair, Fair and the occasional Bair? Yea I don't know a right lot about Fox

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I hope what is in red was a joke.

It adds %....

Usmash being our strongest kill move isn't isn't our only one, Dsmash,Uair, Fsmash(Don't try to Fsmash too much lol),Fair off the top but that's too situtional, or Bair.

Peach's Fair is easy to move around.

.....oh wait you said you don't know much about Fox lol my bad homie >.<

*returns to the Great Fox*

I hate fighting Fox. He makes me feel incredibly slow.

Anyways, we definitely can't outcamp Fox - that's why this matchup is annoying. Fox is sooooo much easier if he comes to you, but a smart one (or at least one that knows the Peach matchup) won't.

Fox isn't gimping Peach. Her umbrella is too good. If Peach sees Fox coming at her off the ledge, Up B. He's got nothing to go through it. Peach is only rarely gimping Fox. Both these characters have solid recoveries and neither of them has incredible gimping tools. Peach's turnips will come in handy, but unlike Falco, who can get absolutely wrecked by our turnips, Fox's Up B...doesn't suck, plus, let's not forget rising Fair, which covers quite a bit of vertical distance. If we hit him out of his phantasm, even with edgehogging, he can very often make it back to the ledge. Not that we shouldn't try to gimp him, but we definitely shouldn't be citing gimping as a surefire way to kill Fox.

Fox Usmash goes through our Dair. Fox can jump above us and Dair us to whatever move he wants (since in the air, thanks to hitstun, we don't get to the ground fast enough to be able to shield). Which means that it's best to not be floating much this match. SH dair is a great way to punish whiffed moves or spotdodges like always (but especially so for Fox since he's easy to combo), anytime he dairs, shield and you can punish OOS pretty easily, our Bair goes through most of his aerials, our Fair outranges his aerials. The thing that keeps this matchup in our favor (as I do think it is in our favor) is that Fox is rather limited in what he can do to us. If we play correctly, he will not be able to rely on his usual combos and won't be able to land as many kill moves as he'd like. Peach can avoid his Usmash quite well, and his dair combos also -if- she stays mostly grounded for this.

Oh yeah, and shinestalling is totally gay. Whenever Fox is doing that above me, I just run off to the side. **** shinestalling. I've gotten punished after Utilts thinking 'dur, Fox iz a fastfallr, so i can tOTaLly get him!!1!' - only to get Daired into whatever he wants to do.

I think it's 55:45 us. I've played a bunch of friendlies with Zeton who is incredibly good, gets at least top 8 at most tournaments I've seen him at, he goes ALL Fox, 'cept for Pikachu.

PS - IF we ever learn to do the Uair chain correctly, it would be like, 85:15 our favor

I say it's 50:50

I have one thing I disagree with somethings.

1)Our Dair isn't THAT LAGGY you can OoS our dair if you tried I'm sure Fox's could either jab/utilt or just shield your OoS.

2) We could bait your umbrella but jumping offstage to shinestall and get around around it.

3)We have a thread on our combos on all that work on all characters...sorry peach doesn't get any special privilages just some precent number changes. I'll be back with the link.

Also it feels so good to get that Nair>Usmash on people.


EDIT: Here it is http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228287
It says Mario but it has vids of people other than mario.

I like the Peach boards, something about main-ing mid-tier characters gives the players a sort of open and logical view to the game. (Well in general at least.)

As it's been stated lasers are Fox's best option in this MU. However, Peach is one of the better characters to corner us once we run out of camping space, as she can cover both our air and ground escape through floating.

Also, it's not that the usual combos don't work... they're just annoyingly more difficult to start. Peach's ability to float, her ability to space with Fair, and her Jab combined with the occasional Toad makes it not only hard to approach, but hard to punish as well. Her turnips alone aren't a nuisance of themselves, but when you're forced to dodge a turnip AND a Fair things can get tricky. Not to mention Peach's forward glide toss is commendable, and her Jab surprisingly outprioritzes or outspeeds (lol fun word) a lot of what we can do close range.

It's a godsend Fox is so fast and that he has good kill moves, otherwise I'm afraid we wouldn't be able to keep up.

The dthrow CG is annoying, but nothing too gamechanging.

I occasionally play against a really good local Peach at the tourneys I attend, and I would say it's about even. Peach has some really great options, but if she slips up even once (in addition to the laser damage she's taken) she could lose a stock.

Light make me an amazing sig.

Code Lyon said:

I say it's 50:50

I have one thing I disagree with somethings.

1)Our Dair isn't THAT LAGGY you can OoS our dair if you tried I'm sure Fox's could either jab/utilt or just shield your OoS.

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Peach can always jab OOS before Fox can do anything if he lands in front of her. If you land behind our shield, we can Nair OOS. Both of these attacks are 2 or 3 frames. There's no way Fox can avoid getting hit if we shield all of his Dair and don't sit in our shield for longer than we have to. But I agree that Fox's Dair isn't very laggy.

Ironboots33 said:

Peach can always jab OOS before Fox can do anything if he lands in front of her. If you land behind our shield, we can Nair OOS. Both of these attacks are 2 or 3 frames. There's no way Fox can avoid getting hit if we shield all of his Dair and don't sit in our shield for longer than we have to. But I agree that Fox's Dair isn't very laggy.

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All jumps in brawl take 4 frames.

It takes 7 frames for shield to drop. (just looked it up)

Your Nair actually would come out on frame 7. Time for us to shield I believe.

I don't disagree with Jab OoS though.

EDIT: I'm starting to think OoS Jab is no good.

Frame 9=Jab OoS

Anyone disagree on this MU being 50:50?

So... can anyone do the 0-Death Uair combo yet?

So... can anyone SDI?

Lol but yea if you are going for that death combo your gonna punished for it since there is only one way to set it up.

SDI was proven to be ineffective against it. That's why it works.

Also, our second easiest move to land, behind turnip, is the set-up. >_>

Besides several other set-ups.

What are the several other set-ups?

hotgarbage said:

How do you set this up?
Punishing laggy attacks, punishing read spotdodges/rolls, doing it out of a dair, or simply hitting someone with it in the air. Basically you just have to connect with a floated uair or sh/float dair in a certain percent range.

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Basically, anything that gives Peach enough time to perform an eight frame move.

Combo works at all precents or becomes ineffective around %'s like 30?

Can we agree on verdict here?

50-50 I'm pretty we hit everything in a short amount unless you wanna go into depth of certain things.

Kbizzle is right buffered jabs or grabs are guranteed at all times other moves become viable as your precent goes up.

Nair is guessing game too. I can go into detail if you would like.

EDIT:
Peaches make me

I think it would be dumb to blatantly ignore a 0-death combo and still call it 50-50.

Thing is, barely any Peaches have mastered it, and even fewer actually play high level Foxes. We should prolly rediscuss this at a future date to actually have it be accurate, otherwise we're left with this outdated "non-combo" match-up ratio.

So uhh, 50-50 for now.

Meno the ZSS MU has a 0-death on Fox and it's still even.

Yeah Lyon and KBizzle bring up a good point. I would be fine with either 55:45 or 50:50.

If both sides think it's 45:55 for either character it should just be 50-50, I think 55-45 is just a silly MU number anyways >.> (thanks for knowing calling your past husband the wrong name T.T)

I know it's you, Iblis. But... I mean I moved on to Moon Doggie until he just abandoned me. I've been going through a dry spell since nearly 5 months ago and...

Wait nvm, wrong discussion.

Anyways, I think most of us here have enough experience in the MU to form some sort of semi-consensus.

I would say 55:45 if only for frame advantages and lasers on our part.

Lol whateva i guess 55-45 Fox is ok but I still think the whole (55-45) is stupid.

At 0-20 you can jab before he can grab (and it won't be grab armored). From 100% he can dair usmash.

50-50 because peach can edgeguard fox hard and play it very safe avoiding the usmash.

I can 0-death him and it makes the match up a whole lot easier because of how evasive he can be. With the 0-death its easily 55-45 peach.

Can you actually hit the 0-death uair string on foxes?

Lol yeah. I can also 0-death the whole cast with uair string to foot stool to bair lock finisher (dthrow turnip weak bair glide toss usmash).

still don't get the turnaround freepull though =/

If you ever get the time make a video of it. Even if it's not a tourney match, I just need to see the dthrow -> weak bair glide toss.

Are you smash throwing the glide toss and then buffering the upsmash? Or weak throwing the glide toss to usmash?

Are there any really good videos of this match up?

The only videos I find are from 2009 and the Peach doesn't know the matchup too well, they get wrecked.

You can watch them at the Fox boards' video archive. Just search for peach.

Can we just say 50-50? 55:45 on either side doesn't make any sense. I love this match because like the ZSS MU I feel to is purely who outplays who, also you can tell when someone doesn't know the MU they get ***** like it was Melee or somethin lol.

It's even if the Peach just stays her *** on the ground. If she plays in the air a lot w/ hops and floats then it becomes a lot easier to tag her w/ AC fair, nairs, and drills and triple/double lasers. When you're in fox's face though after you approach on the ground then it becomes harder for fox coz of Peach's ground range and speed and the threat of having to deal w/ her float and aerial shenanigans in close range. Just keep in mind that his bair is somewhat safe on shield but if you stay grounded u'll easily fsmash/ftilt him as soon as he decides to jump anyway. If you mispace on the ground though he can get ya w/ jab jab cancel grab or buffered nair oos or somethin'.

Oh, and Fox rly has trouble dealing w/ spaced float dair on his shield. Especially if you force him to the edge. All he can rly do about dair is drop shield and run away or he can roll away. AC fair oos shuuuuud miss if you space your float right. But yeah, Fox is just gonna try to run and tag u w/ lasers if you actually manage to hit his shield w/ float dair.

Hmm...turnips would also be good for approach and are important for punishing his airdodge landings. Dash atk would also be good for dealing w/ frame abuse shenanigans as well.

Oh, and be aggressive with edgeguarding. Getting back onstage isn't that easy. Especially with the landing penalty he gets from his up b and side b to the ledge.

anyway this matchup is even. Fox is gonna get his damage in b/c peach is so horribly slow. She's laser bait kinda and Fox kinda makes jumping bad. You gotta work your ground game and adjust your float height so you can make it back into your shield safely. Basically, legs at head height.

being in the air is how he'll kill ya so idk, every time i play my fox vs a pch i feel like i have to camp them so hard.

but yeaaaaaaah, 50/50.

I wouldn't mind using OoS Usmash if Peach is Dairing my Shield I say it's a nice trade.

I think this matchup is clearly in Peach's favor. 60-40 Peach. The two exceptions are Halberd (70-30 Fox) and FD (60-40 Fox)

One thing that is crucial to this matchup is that Fox cannot shield down air. His shield has an abnormal weakness in that it is extremely easily poked near the top of the shield. if you down air his shield at the tip, it will shield poke unless Fox has both a full shield and angles it slightly up. If his shield isn't full and he angled it, he will still probably be poked. Don't believe me? Try it. This means you can be incredibly agressive versus Fox. Do NOT take your time to think about what to do. Aggressive dai rhis shield. If it DIDN"T poke for some reason, simply float away to avoid any out of shield counter he does.

Also, in the air, you must always approach and attack with bair. It will trade hits or beat all of Fox's aerials even if you time it wrong because of how wide the hitbox is from Peach's hurtbox. This will ensure aerials are traded. You will win such a war because if you knock him far away enough you can edgeguard him.

Fox cannot edgeguard peach if you recover from really far down low, save your float, or save your double jump, sweetspot the ledge. When you UP B from under the stage.

As for Fox, he has a lot going for him. His upsmash will kill you early, and he has a couple of movies that make you trip and he can extend his combos for a long time. He can follow your recovery very easily with his speed, and can tech chase you into upsmashes. His down smash will come out fast and surprise you, disabling you from using many of your ground game attacks. Shine can throw off your turnip game too.

WHATEVER YOU DO, always rush him. This is the extreme key to beating Fox if you have a GREAT combo and aggression game, I do not see Fox have the defensive tools to be equipped to handle Peach, except on FD where he has space to get away. Smashville lets you use the platform and even under the stage to approach, and battlefield is very easy, the platforms make it REAL tough for him to use many of his laser and aerial approaches.

Also, on large stages, he can camp the **** out of you and you can do almost nothing about it without taking a bunch of damage. That's why you ALWAYS ban FD if the Fox player is closer to your skill level, because the camping will push him over the edge. If the Fox player is a lot better, just ban Halberd, because he's already better, so the camping won't help him that much on FD. Camping helps decent Foxes beat good Peaches, but it won't do much benefit to a great Fox playing a great Peach.

SUPER PROTIP: Best way to edgeguard are VERTICAL turnips. Throw them up, throw them down. It hits him at the angle that sends him downward, where he will be put in a position to have to use Firefox, this is very bad for him. Also, vertical turnips really scare him and for some reason make him Fox players mess up a lot while recovering. It makes them nervous seeing that thing up in the air.

I just think Peach has too many options to lose this matchup with consistency. 60-40 Peach.

Note: I have played good Foxes since this game came out. I used to play Gamble, and I beat him like 3 times in tournament. I beat Uchiha's Fox everytime I play him, he doesn't even bother. He goes Marth. I've beaten Champ's Fox in tournament, and he prefers going Sheik against my Peach. I played TKD in tournament once, and he went Marth. On his counterpick (3rd match) he picked Fox, on FD (The stage I claim to be a 60-40 Fox advantage) went down to the last hit despite him camping with lasers the entire match. Basically I have more Fox experience than any Peach, and I have more experience playing Fox than any Fox out there has playing Peach. There is no way in my perspective that this is Fox's advantage, I've never been convinced of any matchup more in my entire life. Of all the matchups in the game, I know this one the best. #1.

Tl:Dr; Fox's shield is easily poked at the top. Down air it as much as possible.

^ **** move homie only thing is could you go a little more into detail rushing down Fox? Also the options you have when you both go to the aggression?

Also since you were naming stages what stages would Peach ban other than FD?

Also in the past couple of months we have been finding some **** stuff Fox can do on Battlefield.

Ah, you should enlighten me on Battlefield. I'm unaware of the new stuff. I acknowledge that I'm behind on Fox's metagame for, probably, the past 3 months. I will go into more detail tonight when I discuss this with Champ.