NEW matchup discussion week #7: Pika-pika!

Denzi · Feb 28, 2010

Alright, on to that annoying little lightning rat.

How do we beat this thing!?!?

But really, Pika is considered by most to be the only true hard counter for Falco in the game. Is there anything we can do to save ourselves?

Points:

Pika's favor:
-high mobility and small size make lasers less awesome
-Counter projectile hurts them even more.
-CG from 0-120%

Falco's favor:

-We CG Pika
-Reflector for thunder and Tjolt

Jon? · Feb 28, 2010

If you play against a plank/camp heavy Pikachu, I find it very hard to get anything accomplished. It's just like MK planking cept the little sh*t can shoot thunder bolts at you.

CG is **** on Falco. Our CG on Pikachu is hard to get off in the first place, since they will be camping and QACing away from you. I have very little experience in this match up. Only thing I know what to do in this matchup is camp with lasers and reflect thunder bolts. Jab works wonders in this matchup.

Typ_Ex · Mar 1, 2010

Jon? said:
If you play against a plank/camp heavy Pikachu, I find it very hard to get anything accomplished. It's just like MK planking cept the little sh*t can shoot thunder bolts at you.

CG is **** on Falco. Our CG on Pikachu is hard to get off in the first place, since they will be camping and QACing away from you. I have very little experience in this match up. Only thing I know what to do in this matchup is camp with lasers and reflect thunder bolts. Jab works wonders in this matchup.

I imagine they'll be busy trying to grab us as well. maybe its just me but i find it easier to grab pika first.

as for the pika projectiles, jab stops them so no need to be in shield so they can do stuff. jabs can probably also stop the quick attack if its done often enough.

id say even if not in our advantage, but i have yet to also fight a good pika.

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

Typ_Ex said:
I imagine they'll be busy trying to grab us as well. maybe its just me but i find it easier to grab pika first.

as for the pika projectiles, jab stops them so no need to be in shield so they can do stuff. jabs can probably also stop the quick attack if its done often enough.

id say even if not in our advantage, but i have yet to also fight a good pika.

No way is this in our advantage or even. If Pikachu gets a grab at about 20% he can down throw chain grab us, if we're below 20% he can foward throw chain grab us and then follow up with the down throw chain grab. Once he does his final chain grab to get us to 100%, he can follow up with either a nair or u smash and if we DI incorrectly we lose a stock. If we don't die from that he can kill us with thunder if he up smashed us or kill us if he edge guards us correctly. If we somehow manage to live through that we're at kill % anyways.

It is much easier to grab pikachu than it is for him to grab us since we have a bigger grab range and our side b. If we spike him off the stage he'll most likely come back since he can recover multiple ways with his up b. Pikachu's thunder bolt really isn't much of a threat when we're off stage since it has a lot of start up lag and can be power shielded easily, he'll most likely be using this as an edge guard.

I'd say this is Falco's worst match up and is about 65-35 or 70-30 Pikachu's favor.

erick gm14 · Mar 1, 2010

fight this like Icys, dont get grabbed, dash attack, ftilt and jab are great... but pikas chain grab is the factor... *agrees wiff Dehf** 3-7 or 35-65...

J4pu · Mar 1, 2010

I'm somewhat amazed
DEHF thinks falco has a disadvantaged match-up
is the apocalypse upon us?

lolz anyways, pika's grab range is awful, QAC stores landing lag for the next time they land
If you get hit by a FF-Fair while on the ground they get a grab, if you shield it (and they land in front of you) you get a grab
QAC has 0 priority basically 0 hitstun and extends Pikachu's hurtbox into oblivion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Egx0bgALiA#t=3m20s

thunder lasts deceptively long
if you don't tech you can get QAlocked > jab lock (theoretically> QA to other side > jab lock the other way) >thunder or charged Fsmash
most of pika's ground attacks have short range (dtilt is long-ish and Fsmash is disjointed and long)
if a pika SH rising Uair's you around 20-35%, pray you SDI'ed it so it doesn't get turned into the Uair>FS>QA reset>repeat/QAlock
pika has a ton of lag time after using thunder jolt but retains a lot of aerial mobility if used in the air

that's mostly everything I've got

Typ_Ex · Mar 1, 2010

DEHF said:
No way is this in our advantage or even. If Pikachu gets a grab at about 20% he can down throw chain grab us, if we're below 20% he can foward throw chain grab us and then follow up with the down throw chain grab. Once he does his final chain grab to get us to 100%, he can follow up with either a nair or u smash and if we DI incorrectly we lose a stock. If we don't die from that he can kill us with thunder if he up smashed us or kill us if he edge guards us correctly. If we somehow manage to live through that we're at kill % anyways.

It is much easier to grab pikachu than it is for him to grab us since we have a bigger grab range and our side b. If we spike him off the stage he'll most likely come back since he can recover multiple ways with his up b. Pikachu's thunder bolt really isn't much of a threat when we're off stage since it has a lot of start up lag and can be power shielded easily, he'll most likely be using this as an edge guard.

I'd say this is Falco's worst match up and is about 65-35 or 70-30 Pikachu's favor.

Heh, I can't wait to play a good pika than. This gives me a couple of ideas.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 1, 2010

Yeah...this is a fun match-up for pikachu. We literally don't have to try in this matchup. If we duck lasers can't hit us, so we can crawl forward and stop when we see a laser coming. Since Falco is paranoid of us getting grabs, it is easy to predict Forward-b and then we can get the sweet sweet chaingrab. The best at the CG can literally look at your controller to see which way you are DIing to choose either nair or U-smash. Also, the CG doesn't go to 120, it goes to ~105, but then the nair or U-smash basically brings it to 120. So once we get a CG that leads to either death or a lot of %s, we can literally wait at the other side of the stage and duck the entire match. We never have to approach at this point, and falco really can't do anything. If you approach us we can roll behind you and grab you (assuming you commit to anything SHDL or jab/f-tilt) and that either leads to another CG or a nair or something to kill you.

Falco's CG doesn't effect pikachu that much. Its something like 35% and then a spike, but no matter what we can recover, even if we lose our jump. If we do slight angles (345/15) we can land on the stage every time. So now you have a % lead, big whoop. We can FH T-jolts that pressure you to shield or shine, and then we can run in and grab you. If you >B away, we can always just crawl to you and pressure you and make you <b into us.

Killing is hilarious. Pikachu shouldn't be dying until at laest 160% against you guys since your kill moves are pretty telegraphed (Yay playing falco to understand this). The only way falco should be killing is baiting an Airdodge or something to U-smash us. On the other hand, Falco should never be surviving higher than 140%. I'm pretty sure D-smash beats <B when you guys are recovering, so that eliminates a big option. We can probably react to your <B and D-smash on the level. That would totally make this matchup unwinnable for you guys.

IMO if the pikachu knows the CG falco should never ever ever win this. It is Pikachu's easiest applicable matchup BY FAR and you guys can't really do anything against it. You don't quite have the speed to cope with it. All you have is <B and that can get predictable after a while.

Wulfy07 · Mar 1, 2010

DEHF said:
No way is this in our advantage or even. If Pikachu gets a grab at about 20% he can down throw chain grab us, if we're below 20% he can foward throw chain grab us and then follow up with the down throw chain grab. Once he does his final chain grab to get us to 100%, he can follow up with either a nair or u smash and if we DI incorrectly we lose a stock. If we don't die from that he can kill us with thunder if he up smashed us or kill us if he edge guards us correctly. If we somehow manage to live through that we're at kill % anyways.

It is much easier to grab pikachu than it is for him to grab us since we have a bigger grab range and our side b. If we spike him off the stage he'll most likely come back since he can recover multiple ways with his up b. Pikachu's thunder bolt really isn't much of a threat when we're off stage since it has a lot of start up lag and can be power shielded easily, he'll most likely be using this as an edge guard.

I'd say this is Falco's worst match up and is about 65-35 or 70-30 Pikachu's favor.

Are you insane? The Pikachu boards have this match up right: It's 55-45. First of all, their chain grab is really hard to get off on falco, and we can just spam the jump button. There chain grab (to work) has to be buffered in, so we can't lost the jump as a result of the grab and we'll jump off of pikachu more often than not around 60%-if not earlier. Pikacam says it's near even, and so does virtually every pikachu I've met. IC's are our hardest counter by the way. Having just saw elev8 and Kismet go at it, starting to think that might still be 60-40 and Pikachu is 55-45 easy.

iFudge · Mar 1, 2010

Wulfy07 said:
Are you insane? The Pikachu boards have this match up right: It's 55-45. First of all, their chain grab is really hard to get off on falco, and we can just spam the jump button. There chain grab (to work) has to be buffered in, so we can't lost the jump as a result of the grab and we'll jump off of pikachu more often than not around 60%-if not earlier. Pikacam says it's near even, and so does virtually every pikachu I've met. IC's are our hardest counter by the way. Having just saw elev8 and Kismet go at it, starting to think that might still be 60-40 and Pikachu is 55-45 easy.

Dunt be callin the best falco insane :chuckle:

Jon? · Mar 1, 2010

Jab breaks through thunder bolt? I never knew that. That is something I will need to try out sometime.

@Wulfy07 - assuming both players are of top level and of the same skill, the Pikachu never misses the CG. Matchups are not determined by how hard it is for someone to pull off a certain move or series of moves.

What are our options against QAC/thunder bolt camping?

Master Raven · Mar 1, 2010

This matchup's a ****ing tragedy ROFL

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 1, 2010

key point in this mu is to remember the QAC added lag, if you capitalize on it you can take advantage of their 'mobility', it's still hard though.
bair is pretty darn legit here though..

i play this mu with zss, so i cant really say what theratio should be.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 1, 2010

Most good pikachus don't QAC unless they know itll work, so don't use the phantom lag as something that is amazing.

Wulfy07 said:
Are you insane? The Pikachu boards have this match up right: It's 55-45. First of all, their chain grab is really hard to get off on falco, and we can just spam the jump button. There chain grab (to work) has to be buffered in, so we can't lost the jump as a result of the grab and we'll jump off of pikachu more often than not around 60%-if not earlier. Pikacam says it's near even, and so does virtually every pikachu I've met. IC's are our hardest counter by the way. Having just saw elev8 and Kismet go at it, starting to think that might still be 60-40 and Pikachu is 55-45 easy.

You realize that that thread is from before we knew about the buffer chaingrab? That old CG only went from like 0-50%. Now we have a guaranteed one from 0-110~. You can't jump out of it if the pikachu does it correctly. Hard to get off? Rofl any decent pikachu should be able to get the CG since it is an essential part of pikachu's game. Maybe you should actually play a pikachu or watch a vid of one against falco before making ridiculous assumptions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8EaoeRKvdw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ppCjpItEwHM

BTW the reason i die in the 2nd match is because i messed up and didn't realize i lost my jump, so don't go saying that i die from your CG.

Typ_Ex · Mar 1, 2010

we should probably get on the same page about what thunder jolt and thunderbolt is

down b=thunder bolt, cant jab out of
b= thunder jolt, can jab to clank.

ive been told that getting the chain grab w/ pika is easy.

also, i could be wrong, but i believe the cg goes to around the high 30's lower 40's. ill look into it later.

exdia_16 · Mar 1, 2010

wat i do to beat pikachu is start off with laser game to make him think that i dont want him to get close but all i want to do is get him to think that and switch up my game and play kill the rat than work my way around his game then hello three stock

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 1, 2010

i agree wit this man. jus start off with laser game to make him think that i dont want him to get close but all i want to do is get him to think that and switch up my game and play kill the rat than work my way around his game then hello three stock.

machup discusion done? jus do my tactic.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 1, 2010

>_> If you play close-game you are 100% gonna get Chaingrabbed to death. Not a good idea...

Lord Chair · Mar 1, 2010

ESAM said:
>_> If you play close-game you are 100% gonna get Chaingrabbed to death. Not a good idea...

i tihnk dat peeple overreeact to flaco clos egame phail, i maen really he does just pfew dtilt adn kill at 50% tis eazy

It's Eazy. From this moment on you shall no longer reply to trolls.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 1, 2010

down b is actually thunder. makes more sense and easier to remember then thunderbolt.

if we DI away we can dair and hit you guys out at 35ish

Wulfy07 · Mar 1, 2010

Of course pikachu should never die from CG to spike. But the real outrage is the idea that Pikachu is harder than Ice Climbers. If their chain grab is perfect, it kills.

Are you really suggesting Pikachu is harder than IC? I don't believe it.

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

Believe it!

Wulfy07 · Mar 1, 2010

Could you explain why? Reading your last post I see a bunch of things that I already knew, but I still don't see why Pikachu is harder than ICs. (I tried finding videos of you versus Pikachu to no avail, and I found one of you versus ICs (Fiction) where you lost the set.) Though, you did pretty much wreck his Wario's face.

So maybe you can shed some light because (and I'm not pretending to have a better Falco as I really don't know) but he looked like he ran into grabs. It could've been some amazing mind games, but some of those grabs were just caused by stupidity.

Side note: One should ban FD against Pikachu right?

Typ_Ex · Mar 1, 2010

pikas cg is easier than IC's, and they have more killing options, and they're faster than IC's.

stealth what are you talking about? DI and dair out of what?

Stealth Raptor · Mar 1, 2010

falcos CG. if you hold away and cstick down, at around 35 we will hit the ground with dair, and the shockwave will knock you back. sometimes if you arent perfect we will get it before then, but you will grab armor it.

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

One of the reasons Pikachu is harder than ICs is because he has much more mobility and unlike ICs, you can't separate and/or kill Nana to make his chain grab useless. Usually if ICs make a mistake it can result in your killing Nana and getting rid of the chain grab. If Pikachu makes a mistake he'll take damage, but the threat of his chain grab is always there. Even if we do have a chain grab on him theirs does much more damage and can put us in a much more dangerous position regardless of where we're chain grabbed.

The stage you want to ban is Halberd since their chain grab will most likely turn into a 0-death on that since the ceiling is lower. Pikachu does better than falco on most counter pick stage so we don't have many options for counter picks or bans. The best stages for Falco to play pikachu on are Smashville, Lylat, and possibly brinstar. These stages have things that can interupt the chain grab.

J4pu · Mar 1, 2010

iFudge said:
Dunt be callin the best falco insane

but i do it all the time, sometimes his mu ratios are hilarious

Stealth Raptor said:
down b is actually thunder. makes more sense and easier to remember then thunderbolt.

lightning would make a ton more sense

DEHF said:
The best stages for Falco to play pikachu on are Smashville These stages have things that can interupt the chain grab.

remind me again, what on smashville interrupts CG's?

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

the moving platform stops the chain grab on smashville

J4pu · Mar 1, 2010

falco really flies that high during the CG? cuz that platform is pretty high

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

No, if you get chain grab on the platform he can't do it depending on the direction it's moving.

Typ_Ex · Mar 1, 2010

Stealth Raptor said:
falcos CG. if you hold away and cstick down, at around 35 we will hit the ground with dair, and the shockwave will knock you back. sometimes if you arent perfect we will get it before then, but you will grab armor it.

hm, interesting. ill try that out later. i thought i got you higher htan that in our friendly(s?) at NK v2. but i could be wrong.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 1, 2010

i dont remember if i was trying that or not. the dair thing is pretty old, dunno how accurate it is nowadays, but i do get out sometimes doing it. i dont know exactly how perfect cg effects it

Bloodcross · Mar 1, 2010

Use MK gg

kkkkkk

Denzi · Mar 1, 2010

ESAM said:
We can probably react to your <B and D-smash on the level. That would totally make this matchup unwinnable for you guys.

IIRC Dsmash isn't at all hard to SDI out of.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 1, 2010

i think the point esam was trying to make is we can easily punish your recovery by dsmashing. regardless of DI, we will hit you at least once if we dsmash your phantasm

Denzi · Mar 1, 2010

Stealth Raptor said:
i think the point esam was trying to make is we can easily punish your recovery by dsmashing. regardless of DI, we will hit you at least once if we dsmash your phantasm

Well tbh it doesn't have much of a factor in the matchup. MK can do the same thing x10 with tornado, and that MU is still 50:50.

Stealth Raptor · Mar 1, 2010

we can also skullbash it and it will interrupt it, but i dont think its a major factor in the matchup. i dont think he was implying that either. the CG and other factors matter way more

erick gm14 · Mar 1, 2010

*sigh* good thing i knew about platform camping...i think id do wat BC sayz and go mk, this MU is practically impossible.. id prob lean towards marth since hes my secondary...

also if falco plays SUPER safe/Gay with side B n lasers could he have a chance on sv?

DEHF · Mar 1, 2010

If you stay on the platform of smashville it'll be very hard to get chain grabbed. if you're going to laser/side b camp fd or bf would be better.

Ambient_Horizon · Mar 1, 2010

I honestly can't see how Pikachu is harder than ICs. Even after reading all of this. I have Lain and Anther in my local smash scene and both matches are ******** but in different ways.

ICs shuts down most of our options. Can't really camp them when there's two of them. Ice Block is going to negate it. They outrange us in most cases. They can 0 to death us easily. Falco is not hard to IC CG once you've got him.

I feel like I'm running in fear the entire time except I can't camp them much and they're just pressuring me until I'm cornered. The only hope you have is separating them. Which is hard for Falco. Not impossible but we put ourselves at risk everytime we try. Which results in death if you mess up. And even so a SoPo can still keep you out of his face for a while.

Pikachu is an ******* too.

He has an easier CG but yet again to me this doesn't matter I have the best Pikachu and ICs in my scene. But Pikachus CG ***** regardless.

But after the CG there is some hope you have to play REALLY GAY and camp like there is no tomorrow. And we can at least CG him to rack up some damage. But it harder to kill Pikachu with its good recovery. And Pikachu badgers our recovery much better than ICs which is really just adding insult to injury.

And then there's the other point DEHF brings up with his mobility. Its REALLY annoying because he can get some quick hits off you and retreat. QAC isn't that hard to adjust to though.

Honestly I think both matches are even. Evenly ******** that is.

*NEW* matchup discussion week #7: Pika-pika!

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NEW matchup discussion week #7: Pika-pika!