Snake vs. King Dedede

Underload · Mar 1, 2010

Discuss the King Dedede matchup in here. Discussion is open indefinitely. Don't be afraid to post.

Bulletpoints:

Don't get grabbed. Dedede has a chaingrab that works at any percent, and he will take you across the stage and put you in the worst position possible. (in the air)
Don't get cypher grabbed. Dedede has fantastic grab range, and if you decide to cypher too close to the stage, you'll get grabbed out of it and fall to your doom.
Approaching is a huge no-no. It's what gets you grabbed. If you can't already, learn to be a mobile camper, and keep a good distance between yourself and Dedede at all times.
Dededes love to grab you out of your ftilt. Don't throw moves out randomly, or you'll set yourself up for a grab. Running is almost always the best option.
When you're trying to recover against Dedede, always recover high and fast. This will help to avoid his fair and bair edgeguarding options. If you fail to recover fast enough, you could be looking at an additional 30%.
Mix up your landings. Wavebouncing grenades is acceptable at times, but don't land with them; they'll make you sluggish and easy to grab once you hit the ground. Spotdodging is also advised against.
Punish D3's recovery well. Try to force him into Up-B'ing. He'll either go high above the stage, where you can hit him in the air or punish his landing, or try to fake you out and cancel his Up-B by the ledge. In this case, just grab the ledge and watch him fall to his doom!
You'll always be banning either Rainbow Cruise or Delfino Plaza. Both are amazing stages for D3, and subpar for you.
The matchup seems to be in Dedede's favor, 45:55. Argue if you don't agree.

Notable Posts:

Yumewomiteru said:
Don't ban FD, it works to your favor because you can survive a bit longer and it takes away some of his recovery options.

Platforms don't help all that much since he can bair/utilt you. You shield grab his bair if he spaces it poorly, but Dedede can bait the shield and bair you when it gets too small to protect you. if he utilt your shield and you fall off and miss the tech he gets a free dsmash on you. Snake's best bet is to stay on the ground and keep the penguin in the air.

His utilt also have invulnerabily frames so even if you have a nade out he wont get blown up if he space it right. You never want to land on Dedede when recovering, his utilt has stupid power (kills snake at 120-130 depending on DI), priority (Invincibility frames), range and duration (his whole entire body minus the arms and stays out quite a while). You best bet if you happen to be falling on him is try to footstool him, course it wont work if he does it early enough. you can air dodge through it if your falling at the right angle and are precise with the ad.

Mines, hmm... they dont really save you that much, plus he can cg you to the mine, at low damage he can regrab you after you hit the mine, at high damage the mine can kill you. If you do place a mine make sure you can somehow get Dedede in between you and the mine (hard because you have to go through him or above him).

This is just a response to that post, i'll put up a legit summary soon with a ratio.

Yumewomiteru said:
I'd ban rainbow cruise against Dedede, though I'd prob allow it and switch to MK lol.

So other than that I say Delfino. I think its worse than Castle siege because there is less room to camp and space. And because it transforms "up" while Castle Siege transforms "down", Delfino tends to put you in a worse position than Castle Siege does. And the 2nd part of CS isn't that bad since there are 4 platorms you can camp on, and even if he destroys 2 of them you can still run/fly between the two tall one with no problem, since he can't chase/juggle that well.

Maybe Brinstar is a candidate for banning too, but I never play that stage vs DDD so idk.

Underload said:
I can't see Brinstar as a good stage for Dedede. At all. I mean, utilt kills sooner, but that's pretty much the only positive. It's near impossible to get a grab, small platforms are good for Snake, and Snake will have an easier time killing D3 thanks to the tiny boundaries.

Sinz said:
ALWAYS BAN RAINBOW CRUISE VS D3.

Believe me. It is really. Really. REALLY. Bad times.

Bizkit047 said:
I can be shakey on this matchup, but I know about it well. It basically is a match of patience. If Snake approaches, he will probably lose. Sorry in advance for the massively long post, but there's a lot to know about this matchup. The little details make a HUGE difference in the outcome.

Snake Pros:
Can consistently live very long vs DDD
Can out camp DDD very easily
Can tech chase DDD well
Can punish DDD's recovery well

Snake Cons:
Easily grabbed by DDD
Can get gimped pretty well
Utilt KOs Snake fairly early
Snake has trouble approaching

First let's start with stages. Personally, I like FD Vs DDD. You have so much space to camp DDD to death. If you're an aggressive player, don't go here or you'll just get CGed all match. So it's up to you as a player. On the other hand, you have BF where it's small but platforms help you get grabbed less and slightly help with landing options. SV also, IMO, is okay vs DDD. Not so sure about YI/Lylat. I would imagine Lylat could be tricky for DDD due to hidden explosives. For CPs, it's either RC or Delfino you wanna get rid of. Up to you which you think you'll do better with. Delfino has the dangerous walk offs and wall infinites, RC has a couple wall infinites and favors DDD too.

For the actual matchup, camp DDD to death. I personally am not patient enough to really do this, but if you're in the lead, why approach? Nades give DDD some trouble. Beware of DDDs throwing the nades back, try to anticipate and strip the nade.

Some basic notes of the matchup are do not widly ftilt DDDs in front of you. They LOVE to grab your ftilts and then you take crazy damage. Even having a nade around you for safey can backfire against smart DDDs. Your best bet is to just not ftilt unless you're 100% sure it'll connect (which is tough to say). It's also a good idea to figure out how the DDD grabs you. Does he go for the grab immediately? Or does he wait in shield? Or does he sidestep? Find out the pattern, if any, and avoid and punish. DDD's sidestep is REALLY hard to punish, but learn it so you can.

This is the important part. If you grabbed, count on being CGed. What you DO NOT want to do is spam buffering nades to hope one will pop out in time. This is easily baited by smart DDDs and they'll literally charge an Fsmash and there goes your stock. Sidestep buffering is also a bad idea, as that means you'll eat a powerful dash attack at the ledge. Rolling isn't a great idea either. Personally, I find just holding the controller away from DDD the best method. If he messes up, you walk away from him. Simple as that. If he doesn't mess up, you wouldn't get out of it anyway.

The next part of getting CGed is dealing with the ledge. At high %'s DDDs love to Dthrow to Dtilt you at the ledge for an easy KO. There's not much you can do about this, but anticipate it and DI upward and towards the stage so that you don't die early (you can survive it at 170%+ I believe). Another popular trick is to Dthrow and then ftilt you as you try to double jump to the edge. This ruins your double jump attempt, and forces you to Cypher, which means you're probably losing your stock. Yet another option is for DDD to fall off stage with a Fair (or Bair in some cases). Learn all his dthrow ledge options and how to counter them. Mix up your reactions to the Dthrow over the ledge.

Recovery is a problem against DDD. It leads to getting grabbed easily or utilt KOed earlier than Snake is used to. When you're getting off stage, recover fast and high. If you stall for even a second, DDD will chase you off stage with Bairs and Fairs and add a ton of damage or KO you. If DDDs are smart to your high and fast recovery, they will often wait on the stage for you to helplessly fall right into a grab or utilt. Mixing up things are very important here. I would recommend almost never landing an aerial against DDD ever, that's just grab material. Instead, mix up pivot nading. It's tougher to land on a stage like FD with no platforms than other stages, but not much you can do about it.

Let's talk now about punishing DDD. Waddle spammers are great. If you're anywhere in dashing distance and DDD throws a Waddle, shield and dash attack him. Waddles have so much lag for DDD, they generally shouldn't be used in the matchup. You can even go up for a grab. Which leads to dthrow tech chasing. You can punish DDDs rolling from tech chasing pretty well, and get up attacking is an easy re-grab. Beware of them getting up and going for a grab. Jab to ftilt/grab works on DDDs that don't move immediately after a dthrow. Punish DDDs landing. Like you, he has trouble landing. If DDD is out of jumps and landing in front of you, he has only one option to not get grabbed, and that's neutral B. If he doesn't, you can grab him. Charging an Fsmash is a neat punish for DDDs that land in front of you. If the DDD likes to be in the air a lot, a surprise Nair works fairly well, but don't overuse it.

Punish DDD's recovery too. If DDD Up Bs after his last jump from below the stage, you can GRAB it. Dthrow and utilt for a KO if he's at 150%+. If not, jab him and he'll be forced to Up B again, where you can punish. If he Up Bs from far away, you can hit him with any aerial. Uair/Bair are the best choices and easiest to land. If you miss all of that, you can always just punish the landing lag of his Up B on stage. The last option is for DDDs that try to be sneaky and cancel the Up B and grab the ledge. Predict this and you grab it instead and the DDD falls to his doom.

DDD's kill moves are basically going to be either gimping, Utilt, or Bair/Fair edge guarding. Fsmash/Dsmash/Usmash are pretty laggy so they won't be used. Bair/Fair can KO pretty well over the edge but that's about it. Expect to be KOed by gimps or utilt mostly. Likewise, it's tough to kill DDD. Utilt won't kill him with good DI until 140%+ usually. And of course, avoid Dedeciding. Sometimes they'll swallow you out of cypher during recovery if you recover too low, beware of that.

Last few notes are about your C4/Mines. I wouldn't put Mines on the stage. You'll just get CGed into them most likely. Instead, put them on a platform. And C4s I would not recommend using at 0-100%, as you risk getting gimped. Last but not least, find ways to get up from the ledge that aren't easily grabbable. Get up attacking is a bad idea from the ledge. DDDs can pivot grab from the ledge and snag most of your options sadly, but jumping is an option too. There's more to this matchup really that I'm forgetting, but these are the "basics". It's a messy matchup with a lot of tricks you need to know.

Summary:

Don't get grabbed
Don't get cypher grabbed.
Camp DDD as much as you can, don't approach
Don't ftilt carelessly
Don't jump aerials at DDD while he's on the ground
Avoid CG to edge guard options from DDD
Recovery high and fast, mix up landings
Punish DDDs recovery, Waddle spam, and sidestepping/rolling habits

Overall...I'm not quite sure. It's either 50-50 or 55-45 DDD IMO right now.

TwentyTwo said:
Uh, I'm pretty sure brinstar is a bad stage for DDD, I mean when I cp'd it against Atomsk, he switched to MK. Could have been he was just messing around and didn't care, but I mean looking at it, it's a small uneven stage, acid can save you from gimps, and the platforms are placed for your nair basically, and you can separate the stage if you do want to camp, and even though it makes it harder for him to chain grab, it makes it easier for us to dthrow tech chase.

As for FD vs BF it's preference as mentioned earlier. FD is nice because, it doesn't boost DDD's air game, but it also gives us landing options. BF will mean you get grabbed less to go off stage, and you can put land mines on the lower platforms, and DDD will get hit if he CGs you under it, but then he'll just start throwing you at them.

His standing options out range us in like all ways, so you'll have to mix it up, this however brings me to my next point. I personally don't like to do it, but honestly, you should ***** and whine to get port 4, because him getting sent into the air from exploded grabs, makes your life so much better. So you can throw a nade at him and then approach, or something alone these lines. Grenade grab out ranges his dash grab, but most DDDs don't even use the dash grab, well not against Snake at least.

I find myself punishing with utilt a lot in this matchup, and killing with ftilt, it's kind of odd really. Just him landing, and utilt's disjoint doesn't get shield grabbed, as far as I know, not saying he can't punish, just not with a shield grab.

You can full hop dair and hit DDD because he's freaking huge, so put's good shield pressure, and is solid in punishing. If he swallows a nade, I'm pretty sure you can fsmash him if you're close enough, idk if frame data supports it, but I did it in tourney lol.

He can bair mortars pretty easily, but punish him for it if he's high enough, if he's low, he'll probably bair the mortar and you . So, I personally like to bounce grenades and up toss/soft toss up at the edge, and maybe shoot one mortar.

At the end of it, the CG sucks, but remember, at some point it's just percent, it isn't necessarily killing you. I know percent build up kills you, but I'm saying the dthrow CG itself isn't going to kill you, so don't get too discouraged, try and back away, if you end up off stage, do your best to mix up and recover.

Bizkit pretty much ***** in his write up, but I'll have to disagree with the ratio, I'm thinking in the ball park of 55:45-60:40. Probably 55:45 his favor I'd say though.

shmot said:
i typically avoid BF. i dont ban it, but its not somewhere i want to be. recovering is made extra hard here. at kill percents, his basic aim will be to throw you off, the utilt during your landing lag when landing on a platform. SV is the best of the neutrals, or lylat/yi (if they are considered neutral). FD is ok, but getting grabbed hurts (ie stay near the edge).

putting it simply, i dont like this mu at all. i think if the d3 is good with edgeguards, its borderline unwinnable for snake. snake does outcamp d3, forcing him to slowly and reluctantly approach. so far so good. in approaching, d3 should take some damage; but when he gets to you, what then?

he approaches slowly, deliberately. he walks right up to you, and waits for your next move. anything you have, despite spacing, can be punished with a shield grab. unless you wanna try and jump over him lol. you can only avoid the grab if you trick him, or mindgame him. but the onus is on the snake player. snake is put in a situation where has to gamble, and losing can be tragic.

you can try to dash attack/mortar slide/pivot grab/ftilt/utilt/nade/jump/bair/dair/nair/grab/dash grab. all can work. but most are punishable on reaction. if d3 gets through youre camping and places himself in front of you, you should be in trouble.

so basically, your camping consists of a lot of running away. use nades to push him into the air, or to force him to shield, then punish if you can or get the hell out of there. snake runs, d3 chases. if d3 messes up, he'll probably get hit by a nade. thats about 13%. and he lives longer than you anyway. if snake makes a mistake, 9 times out of 10, he'll be (shield) grabbed.

and what's so horrible about getting grabbed? the initial damage is pretty negligible. it's the fact that he puts you off the edge in a low position that makes it horrible. it's basically a tech chase, except getting predicted once will often mean huge amounts of damage or death, and d3 can punish hard even without any prediction.

if you attempt you jump back to the stage, he can wait and grab you, forcing you to use c4s or cypher to get back afterwards. if you go for the ledge, you eat bair and get stage spiked (a tech really shouldnt save you... unless you do 6 of them). use cypher straight away and get WOPed. use c4 and get WOPed.

it's a pretty horrible situation, espc at low damage. c4s will take a while to get you back, and he can keep edging you back with weak hits. getting grabbed at mid-high damage is still bad, but not as dangerous.

safest option is generally to dj then cypher immediately, and use a c4 at the peak of your cypher. moving backward at the same time and you may just manage to distance yourself away enough to avoid a WOP or gimp. try not to get predictable though.

low c4s generally dont work, but at high percents, sometimes you have to. if he knows you need to tech to survive, prepare to be footstooled or baired. not too much can be done in this situation. dont get grabbed, i suppose.

oh, and dthrow to d3cide is really hard to avoid. it's almost guaranteed. don't lose the first stock.

naturally, use wavebounces and explosions to make landing easier. avoid landing on top of platforms if he's below; utilt will **** your landing. when edgeguarding him, mines and ledgehogging are an awesome combination. nades work too if you're low on time.

and just by the way, if he misses a grab from your spotdodge, you probably won't have enough time to punish it. you need to dodge the grab right at the end of your invincibility (not sure of the frame data) to even punish with a jab. i generally run back at this point. and his spotdodge is god.

all that being said, snake can win. it requires a lot of running and avoiding, and any mistake he makes will be punished worlds harder than he can punish d3. don't make a mistake, and you can win. freakin difficult to not make a single mistake in 8 minutes, though.

60:40 or 65:35 depending on stage. probably our worst mu (not sure if i think olimar is that bad anymore).

rofljont said:
At this point I think this is something like 55/45 D3

Spacing ftilt is pointless cause they can get the shield grab like every time, so its best to always have a grenade next to you.

D3 on the ground beats you in the air for sure no matter how tricky you are,
the best way to do this is to go super camp mode and try not to make any mistakes

also at high percentages dtilt out of a grab can kill, but if ur trying to smash DI the D3 can just not do anything and just wait for your arial for the easy kill.

keeping him in the air is good as well

6Mizu said:
Here's something I know about this MU.
King DDD can F***ing grab any move Snake can "throw out". It's really annoying. >.>

xDD-Master said:
Nade Cooking > DDD

Thats it, carefull Ftilt and Grab Mix Ups also work well against DDD, but if you fail, you get punished hard, so only us it if you can be 100% sure you wont get grabbed afterwards, or there is something that messes up his CG (Like a stage change on PS1/Delfino etc.)

As for Numbers, its even.

Stage: Really I think, the stage doesnt matter vs. him. I think FD works best in terms of getting out of his grab range since there is a lot of space to go. Platforms... well, you can camp on them, but remember DDDs Up-Air, Bair und UpTilt are nasty too.

Usualy I play the match-up like this:

Staying near the edge and cooking nades. When DDD approaches I try to punish. Works well, I'm not spamming Utilt to get the kill like in some other matches, I just wait for it (Snake really has enough other kill options)

RedHalberd said:
I'm really good at this matchup but personally I think it's probably close to 60:40.

Toolwise both characters are adequately supplied to counter each other, but when you play good Dededes (Seibrik/CO18) it's really gay and frustrating when you get grabbed out of dash attacks/dashgrabs. This makes a lot your mixup game just running up to their shield and sidestepping. The alternative is dashgrabbing, which just isn't safe by itself.

The matchup is mad close because snake has ridiculously heavy hitty moves like Dair and Nair but they're also extremely high risk high reward. Snake risks more with every step in this matchup and his reads have to be far more on point, which is why I say 60:40.

Yumewomiteru said:
Alright time to write a few thoughts on this cute yet annoying fat penguin clown. Rather than putting a regular matchup, I'll write a summary on how to fight King Dedede.

I believe this is our worst matchup, because both his ground game and his air game is better than ours.

If you have not faced an experienced Dedede player, you will most likely get wrecked hard. Because of his ridiculous grab range, you will be punished for things that your not used to being punished of. First thing you need to do is learn the range of that grab, its huge.

Both Snake and Dedede should rely on punishing in this matchup, cept Dedede can do it better than we can because of the cg and edgeguard. Your best chance of winning is to camp him until you find an opportunity to grab him or knock him in the air. Then you should do everything you can to keep him in the air and not let him reset. This is not easy however, as he has a few good options when hes above you:

1. Bair, never Usmash him, he will ff bair to outprioritize the mortar AND hit you in the ending lag, that move lasts a looonnggg time, longer than our air dodge iirc.

2. Double Jump Dair, you can shield it on reaction, and punish it with OOS uair if you are fast enough, Dair's hitbox doesnt last as long as its animation, so learn when its gone so you can punish it.

3. Stall with multiple jumps, because of his 5 air jumps, you cannot predict his landing as easily, so just stay under him and wait for him to land, dont hold shield because he can hit you when your shield gets smaller.

4. FF AD, Dedede falls like a rock, he can land on the ground really quickly this way, and if you dont react fast enough he can buffer a grab and grab you when he lands. It's best for you to stay on the ground, because if you jump, he can land before you can and punish you.

5. Inhale, Basically a grab that he can start in the air, it has some startup lag so you should be able to react to it. As long as you are playing it safe and not running into him you can punish it. Know that it has a grab hitbox and a wind hitbox that draws you in, you can shield the wind hitbox, then roll away from it or sometimes roll behind him.

Aside from keeping him in the air, you should try to put him offstage. When he's at high percents and you sent him off stage to the side, nikita immediately, if the nikita gets to him before he gets to the stage, he will have to airdodge it and use up b to recover. When he uses Upb he will either have to land on the stage or cancel it to grab the ledge. If you predict he will grab the ledge, get there before him and take that stock. If hes going for the stage you can time a uair/utilt or shield the hitboxes and punish his landing. You can also nair him, but he can get out with good SDI. Or if hes coming from really low, grab him as hes coming up, then dthrow ->ftilt and force him to upb again.

Thats pretty much it for keeping him in the air/offstage, I'll write summaries on what you should do to recover and what to do when your both on the ground laters.

btw, I think this matchup is 60:40, but I'm willing to take 55:45 if assuming that I'm a worse player than my playing partner DaWall.

As for stages, you don't want to play him on Rainbow Cruise, Delfino isnt good against him either. Other than that it's preference, none of the other stages doesnt really sway the matchup that much.

Yumewomiteru said:
Personally I don't really like Halberd as a CP vs Dedede. First off, the reason Dedede's cg hurts us so bad is because it puts us off stage, each dthrow deals like 4% after its staled a little, so the damage is not that big of a deal. I rather have a bigger stage so I can land better against him, plus that platform in the middle hurts because if we land on it it puts us in a bad position. So no on Halberd imo.

Btw, forgot to mention something, when you hit Dedede offstage, dont immediately snakedash and dont stay too close to the ledge. Dedede can Dedecide you if you're not careful, and he can ledgehop Dedecide you if you are too close to the ledge.

RedHalberd said:
This is what happens when Snake knows the matchup and Dedede doesnt'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQgMDcOhEP0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9UBNSHnlDw

It's still definitely in Dedede's favor, though reads still play a huge part in the matchup and other than Dedede's grab range there aren't any gimmicks.

-NaPPy said:
I cant see this being even at all. Snake may have a few things on DDD, but eventually you're gonna **** up and get sent into the air or Chaingrabbed into being sent offstage, where you might as well be ****ed into taking tons of damage or just losing your stock. He's probably the worst when it comes to juggling snake IMO, and he builds up damage sooo fast.

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

Relevant Matches
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyLoHw55ZdU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fi6goP10_2Y

C.J. · Mar 1, 2010

Ban FD. Jump around on platforms dropping C4 and nades. If you get grabbed cypher away from the stage and C4 yourself high. Keep mines out in case you do get CGed to save you. Stupid penguin....

Yumewomiteru · Mar 1, 2010

C.J. said:
Ban FD. Jump around on platforms dropping C4 and nades. If you get grabbed cypher away from the stage and C4 yourself high. Keep mines out in case you do get CGed to save you. Stupid penguin....

Don't ban FD, it works to your favor because you can survive a bit longer and it takes away some of his recovery options.

Platforms don't help all that much since he can bair/utilt you. You shield grab his bair if he spaces it poorly, but Dedede can bait the shield and bair you when it gets too small to protect you. if he utilt your shield and you fall off and miss the tech he gets a free dsmash on you. Snake's best bet is to stay on the ground and keep the penguin in the air.

His utilt also have invulnerabily frames so even if you have a nade out he wont get blown up if he space it right. You never want to land on Dedede when recovering, his utilt has stupid power (kills snake at 120-130 depending on DI), priority (Invincibility frames), range and duration (his whole entire body minus the arms and stays out quite a while). You best bet if you happen to be falling on him is try to footstool him, course it wont work if he does it early enough. you can air dodge through it if your falling at the right angle and are precise with the ad.

Mines, hmm... they dont really save you that much, plus he can cg you to the mine, at low damage he can regrab you after you hit the mine, at high damage the mine can kill you. If you do place a mine make sure you can somehow get Dedede in between you and the mine (hard because you have to go through him or above him).

This is just a response to that post, i'll put up a legit summary soon with a ratio.

Attila_ · Mar 1, 2010

just wanna mention that utilt only has invincibility on the frames that it is hitting. so if it misses, there's no invincibility or anything... but this does made nade countering doesn't work at all.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2010

stage ban is very preferential in this MU IMO, from what I've seen some snake's like/do well on FD and some don't. in all likelyhood, delfino is probably worse, though.

Yumewomiteru · Mar 1, 2010

I'd ban rainbow cruise against Dedede, though I'd prob allow it and switch to MK lol.

So other than that I say Delfino. I think its worse than Castle siege because there is less room to camp and space. And because it transforms "up" while Castle Siege transforms "down", Delfino tends to put you in a worse position than Castle Siege does. And the 2nd part of CS isn't that bad since there are 4 platorms you can camp on, and even if he destroys 2 of them you can still run/fly between the two tall one with no problem, since he can't chase/juggle that well.

Maybe Brinstar is a candidate for banning too, but I never play that stage vs DDD so idk.

Underload · Mar 1, 2010

I can't see Brinstar as a good stage for Dedede. At all. I mean, utilt kills sooner, but that's pretty much the only positive. It's near impossible to get a grab, small platforms are good for Snake, and Snake will have an easier time killing D3 thanks to the tiny boundaries.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2010

CS isn't too bad because you can platform camp the **** out of the walkoff part. I don't really dislike RC that much and as you noted, CPing that stage is just asking to get the batman involved

idk about brinstar but I'd think it'd be a very awkward stage for BOTH characters, I don't think either *really* wants to go there...brinstar is also an amazing MK stage for those of us that secondary him, team of brokenness lmfao

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

ALWAYS BAN RAINBOW CRUISE VS D3.

Believe me. It is really. Really. REALLY. Bad times.

Yumewomiteru · Mar 1, 2010

Sinz said:
ALWAYS BAN RAINBOW CRUISE VS D3.

Believe me. It is really. Really. REALLY. Bad times.

Or go MK and make it really really really bad times for the D3 lol.

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

Thing is, this is a Snake vs D3 discussion. Not Snake/MK vs D3 discussion.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2010

Sinz said:
Thing is, this is a Snake vs D3 discussion. Not Snake/MK vs D3 discussion.

true, but advocating having a good secondary for bad stages so that you can't really be stage CP'd is good advice anyway

Underload · Mar 1, 2010

etecoon said:
true, but advocating having a good secondary for bad stages so that you can't really be stage CP'd is good advice anyway

He's got you there, Sinz.

Bizkit047 · Mar 1, 2010

I can be shakey on this matchup, but I know about it well. It basically is a match of patience. If Snake approaches, he will probably lose. Sorry in advance for the massively long post, but there's a lot to know about this matchup. The little details make a HUGE difference in the outcome.

Snake Pros:
Can consistently live very long vs DDD
Can out camp DDD very easily
Can tech chase DDD well
Can punish DDD's recovery well

Snake Cons:
Easily grabbed by DDD
Can get gimped pretty well
Utilt KOs Snake fairly early
Snake has trouble approaching

First let's start with stages. Personally, I like FD Vs DDD. You have so much space to camp DDD to death. If you're an aggressive player, don't go here or you'll just get CGed all match. So it's up to you as a player. On the other hand, you have BF where it's small but platforms help you get grabbed less and slightly help with landing options. SV also, IMO, is okay vs DDD. Not so sure about YI/Lylat. I would imagine Lylat could be tricky for DDD due to hidden explosives. For CPs, it's either RC or Delfino you wanna get rid of. Up to you which you think you'll do better with. Delfino has the dangerous walk offs and wall infinites, RC has a couple wall infinites and favors DDD too.

For the actual matchup, camp DDD to death. I personally am not patient enough to really do this, but if you're in the lead, why approach? Nades give DDD some trouble. Beware of DDDs throwing the nades back, try to anticipate and strip the nade.

Some basic notes of the matchup are do not widly ftilt DDDs in front of you. They LOVE to grab your ftilts and then you take crazy damage. Even having a nade around you for safey can backfire against smart DDDs. Your best bet is to just not ftilt unless you're 100% sure it'll connect (which is tough to say). It's also a good idea to figure out how the DDD grabs you. Does he go for the grab immediately? Or does he wait in shield? Or does he sidestep? Find out the pattern, if any, and avoid and punish. DDD's sidestep is REALLY hard to punish, but learn it so you can.

This is the important part. If you grabbed, count on being CGed. What you DO NOT want to do is spam buffering nades to hope one will pop out in time. This is easily baited by smart DDDs and they'll literally charge an Fsmash and there goes your stock. Sidestep buffering is also a bad idea, as that means you'll eat a powerful dash attack at the ledge. Rolling isn't a great idea either. Personally, I find just holding the controller away from DDD the best method. If he messes up, you walk away from him. Simple as that. If he doesn't mess up, you wouldn't get out of it anyway.

The next part of getting CGed is dealing with the ledge. At high %'s DDDs love to Dthrow to Dtilt you at the ledge for an easy KO. There's not much you can do about this, but anticipate it and DI upward and towards the stage so that you don't die early (you can survive it at 170%+ I believe). Another popular trick is to Dthrow and then ftilt you as you try to double jump to the edge. This ruins your double jump attempt, and forces you to Cypher, which means you're probably losing your stock. Yet another option is for DDD to fall off stage with a Fair (or Bair in some cases). Learn all his dthrow ledge options and how to counter them. Mix up your reactions to the Dthrow over the ledge.

Recovery is a problem against DDD. It leads to getting grabbed easily or utilt KOed earlier than Snake is used to. When you're getting off stage, recover fast and high. If you stall for even a second, DDD will chase you off stage with Bairs and Fairs and add a ton of damage or KO you. If DDDs are smart to your high and fast recovery, they will often wait on the stage for you to helplessly fall right into a grab or utilt. Mixing up things are very important here. I would recommend almost never landing an aerial against DDD ever, that's just grab material. Instead, mix up pivot nading. It's tougher to land on a stage like FD with no platforms than other stages, but not much you can do about it.

Let's talk now about punishing DDD. Waddle spammers are great. If you're anywhere in dashing distance and DDD throws a Waddle, shield and dash attack him. Waddles have so much lag for DDD, they generally shouldn't be used in the matchup. You can even go up for a grab. Which leads to dthrow tech chasing. You can punish DDDs rolling from tech chasing pretty well, and get up attacking is an easy re-grab. Beware of them getting up and going for a grab. Jab to ftilt/grab works on DDDs that don't move immediately after a dthrow. Punish DDDs landing. Like you, he has trouble landing. If DDD is out of jumps and landing in front of you, he has only one option to not get grabbed, and that's neutral B. If he doesn't, you can grab him. Charging an Fsmash is a neat punish for DDDs that land in front of you. If the DDD likes to be in the air a lot, a surprise Nair works fairly well, but don't overuse it.

Punish DDD's recovery too. If DDD Up Bs after his last jump from below the stage, you can GRAB it. Dthrow and utilt for a KO if he's at 150%+. If not, jab him and he'll be forced to Up B again, where you can punish. If he Up Bs from far away, you can hit him with any aerial. Uair/Bair are the best choices and easiest to land. If you miss all of that, you can always just punish the landing lag of his Up B on stage. The last option is for DDDs that try to be sneaky and cancel the Up B and grab the ledge. Predict this and you grab it instead and the DDD falls to his doom.

DDD's kill moves are basically going to be either gimping, Utilt, or Bair/Fair edge guarding. Fsmash/Dsmash/Usmash are pretty laggy so they won't be used. Bair/Fair can KO pretty well over the edge but that's about it. Expect to be KOed by gimps or utilt mostly. Likewise, it's tough to kill DDD. Utilt won't kill him with good DI until 140%+ usually. And of course, avoid Dedeciding. Sometimes they'll swallow you out of cypher during recovery if you recover too low, beware of that.

Last few notes are about your C4/Mines. I wouldn't put Mines on the stage. You'll just get CGed into them most likely. Instead, put them on a platform. And C4s I would not recommend using at 0-100%, as you risk getting gimped. Last but not least, find ways to get up from the ledge that aren't easily grabbable. Get up attacking is a bad idea from the ledge. DDDs can pivot grab from the ledge and snag most of your options sadly, but jumping is an option too. There's more to this matchup really that I'm forgetting, but these are the "basics". It's a messy matchup with a lot of tricks you need to know.

Summary:

Don't get grabbed
Don't get cypher grabbed.
Camp DDD as much as you can, don't approach
Don't ftilt carelessly
Don't jump aerials at DDD while he's on the ground
Avoid CG to edge guard options from DDD
Recovery high and fast, mix up landings
Punish DDDs recovery, Waddle spam, and sidestepping/rolling habits

Overall...I'm not quite sure. It's either 50-50 or 55-45 DDD IMO right now.

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

etecoon said:
true, but advocating having a good secondary for bad stages so that you can't really be stage CP'd is good advice anyway

So then are we going to just switch our character discussions to just switch to metaknight?

Underload said:
He's got you there, Sinz.

It's stupid. Choose a character and just play that character. You will do better that way. Incase you didn't notice the (majority) top players play 1 character competitively in tournament. Ally(the instant his MK failed he went to Snake and *****), ADHD, M2K, Lain, Larry, and many of the other top players only play 1 character. They learned everything about that character and use it well.

o-Serin-o · Mar 1, 2010

...Do I really wanna do a writeup on this matchup?

Spelt · Mar 1, 2010

ally didn't drop MK.
also lain mains both ICs/DDD.

ninjalink plays a lot of characters.

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

I would appreciate it. It looks like it would only be me who would appreciate it since everyone else is going to go MK on D3 apparently.

I thought Lain rarely plays D3.

Ninjalink goes Diddy when it matters.

Spelt · Mar 1, 2010

lain stated somewhere that he co mains both of them.
probably on the ICGD or something.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2010

lain also uses DDD a lot, and there are lots of other examples of top players that use 2-3 or even more characters competitively. you might be right that this is off topic, but counterpicking isn't a bad thing when your alternative is something that is nearly futile or stupidly disadvantageous. yea there's no point discussing that MU here or going into in depth, but is "_____ as a CP character limits your bad stages in this matchup" really bad advice? it doesn't have to be MK either, like falco is a great pocket character especially if your region allows japes. it shouldn't replace matchup discussion, this is still about snake vs DDD, but I don't see why recommending a secondary as well is totally off here

edit:

Sinz said:
I would appreciate it. It looks like it would only be me who would appreciate it since everyone else is going to go MK on D3 apparently.

I thought Lain rarely plays D3.

Ninjalink goes Diddy when it matters.

it depends on the matchup, he also uses ROB as a serious character and maybe another one or two. he goes diddy especially vs MK which is smart because diddy has the best matchup with MK aside from MK, he's an example of counterpicking working

Spelt · Mar 1, 2010

ninjalink also uses ice climbers and pikachu, probably more but that's all i know of.

lain also rarely uses MK for MK dittos.

Sinz · Mar 1, 2010

etecoon said:
it depends on the matchup, he also uses ROB as a serious character and maybe another one or two. he goes diddy especially vs MK which is smart because diddy has the best matchup with MK aside from MK, he's an example of counterpicking working

Actually no. Snake does better vs MK than Diddy does. Its just that MK's haven't learned the **** match up. Dojo did look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVV_2JawBgc

Watch that set.

TwentyTwo · Mar 1, 2010

Uh, I'm pretty sure brinstar is a bad stage for DDD, I mean when I cp'd it against Atomsk, he switched to MK. Could have been he was just messing around and didn't care, but I mean looking at it, it's a small uneven stage, acid can save you from gimps, and the platforms are placed for your nair basically, and you can separate the stage if you do want to camp, and even though it makes it harder for him to chain grab, it makes it easier for us to dthrow tech chase.

As for FD vs BF it's preference as mentioned earlier. FD is nice because, it doesn't boost DDD's air game, but it also gives us landing options. BF will mean you get grabbed less to go off stage, and you can put land mines on the lower platforms, and DDD will get hit if he CGs you under it, but then he'll just start throwing you at them.

His standing options out range us in like all ways, so you'll have to mix it up, this however brings me to my next point. I personally don't like to do it, but honestly, you should ***** and whine to get port 4, because him getting sent into the air from exploded grabs, makes your life so much better. So you can throw a nade at him and then approach, or something alone these lines. Grenade grab out ranges his dash grab, but most DDDs don't even use the dash grab, well not against Snake at least.

I find myself punishing with utilt a lot in this matchup, and killing with ftilt, it's kind of odd really. Just him landing, and utilt's disjoint doesn't get shield grabbed, as far as I know, not saying he can't punish, just not with a shield grab.

You can full hop dair and hit DDD because he's freaking huge, so put's good shield pressure, and is solid in punishing. If he swallows a nade, I'm pretty sure you can fsmash him if you're close enough, idk if frame data supports it, but I did it in tourney lol.

He can bair mortars pretty easily, but punish him for it if he's high enough, if he's low, he'll probably bair the mortar and you

. So, I personally like to bounce grenades and up toss/soft toss up at the edge, and maybe shoot one mortar.

At the end of it, the CG sucks, but remember, at some point it's just percent, it isn't necessarily killing you. I know percent build up kills you, but I'm saying the dthrow CG itself isn't going to kill you, so don't get too discouraged, try and back away, if you end up off stage, do your best to mix up and recover.

Bizkit pretty much ***** in his write up, but I'll have to disagree with the ratio, I'm thinking in the ball park of 55:45-60:40. Probably 55:45 his favor I'd say though.

etecoon · Mar 1, 2010

Sinz said:
Actually no. Snake does better vs MK than Diddy does. Its just that MK's haven't learned the **** match up. Dojo did look at this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVV_2JawBgc

Watch that set.

when dojo was more in practice he also ****ed up pretty much any snake as well, including beating ally in a MM at genesis, don't see what that's supposed to prove. snake is arguably better vs MK but a better argument could be made just from that snake has more "MK slayers" than anyone, he's the only character with that much of a trend showing that he does well vs MK.

either way MK beats both of them, but less so than other characters, so this is pretty irrelevant. I have reasons for believing diddy does better in that matchup but this isn't the place for it

Berserker. · Mar 2, 2010

Due to Bizkit's and 22's summary, I'll throw out somethings:

Don't go near DDD. His u-tilt is broken. Always pull out a grenade all the time just in case you get grabbed.

And plus, most of the summaries says only 55:45 DDD or 50:50 even but I'm for 60:40-55:45

Attila_ · Mar 2, 2010

i typically avoid BF. i dont ban it, but its not somewhere i want to be. recovering is made extra hard here. at kill percents, his basic aim will be to throw you off, the utilt during your landing lag when landing on a platform. SV is the best of the neutrals, or lylat/yi (if they are considered neutral). FD is ok, but getting grabbed hurts (ie stay near the edge).

putting it simply, i dont like this mu at all. i think if the d3 is good with edgeguards, its borderline unwinnable for snake. snake does outcamp d3, forcing him to slowly and reluctantly approach. so far so good. in approaching, d3 should take some damage; but when he gets to you, what then?

he approaches slowly, deliberately. he walks right up to you, and waits for your next move. anything you have, despite spacing, can be punished with a shield grab. unless you wanna try and jump over him lol. you can only avoid the grab if you trick him, or mindgame him. but the onus is on the snake player. snake is put in a situation where has to gamble, and losing can be tragic.

you can try to dash attack/mortar slide/pivot grab/ftilt/utilt/nade/jump/bair/dair/nair/grab/dash grab. all can work. but most are punishable on reaction. if d3 gets through youre camping and places himself in front of you, you should be in trouble.

so basically, your camping consists of a lot of running away. use nades to push him into the air, or to force him to shield, then punish if you can or get the hell out of there. snake runs, d3 chases. if d3 messes up, he'll probably get hit by a nade. thats about 13%. and he lives longer than you anyway. if snake makes a mistake, 9 times out of 10, he'll be (shield) grabbed.

and what's so horrible about getting grabbed? the initial damage is pretty negligible. it's the fact that he puts you off the edge in a low position that makes it horrible. it's basically a tech chase, except getting predicted once will often mean huge amounts of damage or death, and d3 can punish hard even without any prediction.

if you attempt you jump back to the stage, he can wait and grab you, forcing you to use c4s or cypher to get back afterwards. if you go for the ledge, you eat bair and get stage spiked (a tech really shouldnt save you... unless you do 6 of them). use cypher straight away and get WOPed. use c4 and get WOPed.

it's a pretty horrible situation, espc at low damage. c4s will take a while to get you back, and he can keep edging you back with weak hits. getting grabbed at mid-high damage is still bad, but not as dangerous.

safest option is generally to dj then cypher immediately, and use a c4 at the peak of your cypher. moving backward at the same time and you may just manage to distance yourself away enough to avoid a WOP or gimp. try not to get predictable though.

low c4s generally dont work, but at high percents, sometimes you have to. if he knows you need to tech to survive, prepare to be footstooled or baired. not too much can be done in this situation. dont get grabbed, i suppose.

oh, and dthrow to d3cide is really hard to avoid. it's almost guaranteed. don't lose the first stock.

naturally, use wavebounces and explosions to make landing easier. avoid landing on top of platforms if he's below; utilt will **** your landing. when edgeguarding him, mines and ledgehogging are an awesome combination. nades work too if you're low on time.

and just by the way, if he misses a grab from your spotdodge, you probably won't have enough time to punish it. you need to dodge the grab right at the end of your invincibility (not sure of the frame data) to even punish with a jab. i generally run back at this point. and his spotdodge is god.

all that being said, snake can win. it requires a lot of running and avoiding, and any mistake he makes will be punished worlds harder than he can punish d3. don't make a mistake, and you can win. freakin difficult to not make a single mistake in 8 minutes, though.

60:40 or 65:35 depending on stage. probably our worst mu (not sure if i think olimar is that bad anymore).

rofljont · Mar 4, 2010

At this point I think this is something like 55/45 D3

Spacing ftilt is pointless cause they can get the shield grab like every time, so its best to always have a grenade next to you.

D3 on the ground beats you in the air for sure no matter how tricky you are,
the best way to do this is to go super camp mode and try not to make any mistakes

also at high percentages dtilt out of a grab can kill, but if ur trying to smash DI the D3 can just not do anything and just wait for your arial for the easy kill.

keeping him in the air is good as well

Kunx990 · Mar 4, 2010

Well timed Usmashs helped me escape a grab.

Teh Future · Mar 4, 2010

Snake boards: omg snakes terrible 80-20 D3s advantage also mks broken

6Mizu · Mar 4, 2010

Here's something I know about this MU.
King DDD can F***ing grab any move Snake can "throw out". It's really annoying. >.>

Bizkit047 · Mar 4, 2010

rofljont said:
At this point I think this is something like 55/45 D3

Spacing ftilt is pointless cause they can get the shield grab like every time, so its best to always have a grenade next to you.

D3 on the ground beats you in the air for sure no matter how tricky you are,
the best way to do this is to go super camp mode and try not to make any mistakes

also at high percentages dtilt out of a grab can kill, but if ur trying to smash DI the D3 can just not do anything and just wait for your arial for the easy kill.

keeping him in the air is good as well

Spacing ftilt works if the DDD doesn't powershield it, as it can push him back out of grab range.

Oh, and something to note is another trick you can use against DDD is just run up and grab him, as most may expect an easy shield grab attack.

Mister Cadaver · Mar 4, 2010

I agree with 55:45 or 50:50. It's tough. In D3's favor btw. ;x lulz

Yumewomiteru · Mar 4, 2010

Bizkit047 said:
Spacing ftilt works if the DDD doesn't powershield it, as it can push him back out of grab range.

Oh, and something to note is another trick you can use against DDD is just run up and grab him, as most may expect an easy shield grab attack.

He can react to that by grabbing you before you reach him.

If you are close to him that is a better to go for a grab, though he can spot dodge it and punish.

Berserker. · Mar 5, 2010

Teh Future said:
Snake boards: omg snakes terrible 80-20 D3s advantage also mks broken

No time for joking! That's too exaggerated!

_____________________________________________

Time for my full input:

Snake's advantages:
We are better in terms of camping than DDD. We also have a variety of long ranged attacks and powerful kill moves. We can punish DDD's landing fairly well and D-throw is good against DDD. Snake can punish DDD's recovery and tech chase DDD pretty well. Also, we're heavier than DDD and DDD is more of a fatter target but we're a tall target.

DDD's advantages:
Chain grabs of course. This is his main advantage against Snake. If he gets hold of Snake, it won't get well for Snake though grenades solve this situations but sometimes, DDD's just CG away from the grenade. Another advantage he has is his gay u-tilt. It's VERY gay and it can kill Snake at an early percent. I know Snake's can kill too but it's just that DDD's is somewhat better in my opinion. Oh, one more obvious advantage. DDD's aerials are way better than Snake's.

What to do:
Camp hard. Keep a distance away from DDD. Always have a grenade near you when DDD is near you. Whenever he's going to grab you, quickly pick up a nade and hope that it can explode on time. NEVER approach DDD. There is a chance of you gettnig shield GRABBED. F-tilt will serve as your spacing tool due to it's long range. DDD's f-tilt however has VERY LONG RANGE but it's pretty weak but still, you be careful.

DDD's air games are good in general. His b-air can make a wall of defense and it can kill moderately well. His n-air can outprioritize your up-smash bullet and his d-air can easily rack up damage. U-air is the same is d-air and f-air can damage a lot. Luckily, DDD has the LOWEST air speed in the game so you should take advantage of that.

Recovering against DDD may be difficult. His f-air and b-air can spike you out easily and he can grab you out of cypher. Just mix up your recovery with some b-reversals. His d-throw grab is his chain grab, his b-throw is his powerful throw, u-air isn't really that useful and f-throw works like b-throw. They both have equal range and power but since DDD can rack up damage with his CG, I'll give the edge to him.

Overall, the key to this match up is defense, camping, mix up and punishment. It's very important to net get grabbed by DDD even though you might get grabbed since Snake is not flawless but still, try your best to not get grabed more often. If you don't wanna get CG'ed or ***** by DDD, you better watch on what move your using and camp really hard.

Overall ratio:
55:45 DDD

Lol, my input was ignored xD

iFudge · Mar 5, 2010

Any cp's vs ddd? they usual ban bf,

Berserker. · Mar 5, 2010

I don't know.

BF is ban or CP but I'm gonna lean to ban since their are annoying platforms that increases DDD's favor -_-

iFudge · Mar 5, 2010

no i mean any good stages to cp vs ddd. all the d3's i played ban bf.

Yumewomiteru · Mar 5, 2010

As for neutrals I like to CP FD, but thats only my preference, so CP w/e you want for neutrals.

As for others... This may sound weird, but I do my best against Dedede on PS1 and Castle Siege, Just watch out for the wall infinite on PS1 and the walk-off on Castle Siege.

iFudge · Mar 5, 2010

on neutrals i do good at sv cause of the platform. But on my cp's i get ***** But yea i guess Castle seige should be good, f-tilt could pull a early ko :D

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