Match-up Export #11: Pikachu | In-Depth Discussion

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

Match-Up Export

Fox vs. Pikachu

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Things to keep in mind while discussing!

Code:

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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Pikachu

KEY POINTS

Advantages

Disadvantages

Summary

IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Pikachu Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Code:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Pikachu Bans
* To Be Classified:

Code:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Pikachu Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Code:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries

Videos & Other Outside Resources

VERDICT ??:??

MATCH-UP DISCUSSION GO!

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

This will be the last discussion until others have been finished >.<

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 3, 2010

Pikachu >>>>> Fox at least 65:35

Your speed makes it difficult get a grab on, but once we do it is literally death. Our fair can lead to grab and our upair to lead to fair that can lead to grab. We die pretty quick to U-smash, but pikachu shouldn't really be playing too aggressive since our match revolves around the grab. We will probably be shielding a lot so you could actually get a few grabs, but don't get predictable with them because pika will sidestep grab and then start the reDUNKulous chain grab.

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

Isn't there a % where the CG can't be started lie 45% or something?

Also we know Pika>Fox but we wanna know how much Pika>Fox

Uzima (Uzi) · Mar 3, 2010

70>30
if not worse
x.x

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

Anything past 70:30 actually sounds off to me Uzi....

Uzima (Uzi) · Mar 3, 2010

maybe, its still freaking terrible and one of the matches that keeps fox in C tier -.-;;;;

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

The only I think....besides Shiek

Uzima (Uzi) · Mar 3, 2010

ice climbers >.>

Code Lyon · Mar 3, 2010

Opps I forgot >.<

mercy · Mar 5, 2010

Pause, press L + R + A + START, pick Marth, then profit.

Code Lyon · Mar 5, 2010

mercy said:
I'ma Crackbaby.

Got anything useful to tell us?

Sosuke · Mar 5, 2010

If you're not going to contribute, don't post.

Code Lyon · Mar 5, 2010

Don't make Sasuke use his...
Banner Hammer: Banning Jutsu

Lightning93 · Mar 6, 2010

At Fox's death percentage I believe we can escape Pika's CG with proper DI. I mean, it does a ****load of damage, but I don't believe it's 0>death...

I mean even without the CG, our AC Bair and Fair is taken away due to Pika's height making it instantly harder for us to combo. Lasering correctly becomes a problem (especially if Pika is QAC), but we still have our trusty Nair and Dair. I dunno, I'll wait for some more responses before continuing.

Roller · Mar 8, 2010

This matchup really is just god awful for you guys. Camp a lot while at low percents if you can. Don't get grabbed obv. If you are going to approach make sure you do something that will end up leaving you behind pika so he can't just shieldgrab you. You have to play patiently and be careful. Don't just haphazardly run in hoping to pull off a combo.

And do not cp a small stage.

I'd agree with 30:70 in pika's favor.

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

Rollerking540 said:
This matchup really is just god awful for you guys. Camp a lot while at low percents if you can. Don't get grabbed obv. If you are going to approach make sure you do something that will end up leaving you behind pika so he can't just shieldgrab you. You have to play patiently and be careful. Don't just haphazardly run in hoping to pull off a combo.

And do not cp a small stage.

I'd agree with 30:70 in pika's favor.

Would you reconmend running in and shield grabbing Pika to discourage shielding? Also wouldn't it be a good idea to eat the Jolts until 30%-45% so the chaingrab is rendered useless?

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

Honestly, the running in to shield grabbing sounds like a terrible idea. If you do end up grabbing pika, congrats. But that's only 9-10 damage with dthrow plus possible combos in the air. Pika's quick attack could get him waaaay out of air combo range in a heartbeat, though. Now let's say that you didn't end up getting the grab, and he read your dash>shield and grabbed you first. We all know what happens after that, and it is definitely not worth the risk. Taking damage from the random spurts of jolts, on the other hand, isn't that bad of an idea. Not that I would do it on purpose or anything. But I would definitely take 45-60 percent and be able to use Fox to his fullest potential, than not take any damage and camp the entire time while thinking "If I mess up just once, I could get 100 damage and possibly even die from it." 45% sounds awesome in that case. If possible, always cp pika on stages with platforms. Pika, seriously, cannot do a single thing about a campy Fox, covering multiple platforms. You definitely won't get grabbed, and it will be easier to use Fox's speed for random surprise attacks. This fight is pretty much just running away > Laser cancelling until pika messes up. So for normal Foxes, I think this fight is 30:70. For patient Foxes, 40:60 if not better. Not saying the matchup is easy. Just saying it's a lot more doable than people think.

P.S. Ice Climbers are not that bad guys.

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

QA widely enlargens pikas hurtbox.

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

That's true. What about it?

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

We could bait it so we take adv. of the hitbox enlargement, after Dthrow.

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

That could work. IF you could predict where pika was going to go. If he's in the air, it's nearly impossible to do so. Plus, in addition to guessing where pika was gonna go, you'd have to time your attack perfectly in order to punish him for it. Don't forget that pika still has it's jump after dthrow to, so trying to figure out when it's actually going to qa will be the biggest hassle. But if you do end up guessing right, congrats on that for sure lol.

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

But the Pika has to come down or landing land punishment. He has three ways to come down. Down and the daigonals pika is still in a bad position.

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

I see what you're saying, but that doesn't take away from the fact that you would have to guess correctly where pika was going to go. It's not like it only has one option. Pika could QA straight across (in the X axis) just after coming out of hitstun, then diagonal even further away, making that specific instance impossible to punish. Now lets say you guessed correctly. If it was a good pika, they would QA cancel for no lag and could do literally anything after the cancel, rendering Fox's efforts useless.

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

Lol ok shoot lasers XD

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

There you go dude!! That works lol.

Code Lyon · Mar 8, 2010

I say our best CP is SV

Virgman · Mar 8, 2010

That's a good stage against pika. Simply because of the platform, IMO. To me, I think the best CP is BF. Simply because the stage is covered with platforms from edge to edge, so there's never a time where you can't get away from pika. And if it tries to follow you, jump up to the next platform. A stage that's split into three levels and covered with platforms. What more could you ask for?

gamesuxcard · Mar 10, 2010

Don't get grabbed.

Trying to be serious, I mean, this matchup is bad for fox. We're tiny so you can't really do your aerial setups around us. Camp us and shine our tjolts. Umm, it's not really safe to get in close so only do so if you're punishing a move that's already happening. I'm sorry fox boards, I wish there was more I could put on the subject because I play a lot of Fox myself but I can't think of much. Be safe.

ashark8doom · Mar 11, 2010

I've been playing quite a few pikas lately and have found that in most cases the best strategy is patience. Deal out % when you can with laser and shine the bolts. By doing this I have been able to keep my % low while chiseling away at theirs. Then it just comes down to punishing them when you can and if your going to approach be sporadic and random about it... I guess most of this has been covered, but thats just my two cents

C.R.Z · Mar 17, 2010

i have nothing much to add. except that fox should be nair -> JJC alot, and use well spaced ftilts when pika approaches from the ground, fair when approaches from the air. just keep them away while you camp and punish.o and dont get grabbed lol

65-35 pika's favour

Lightning93 · Mar 17, 2010

Yeah basically, our best options in this MU are limited even worse due to Pikachu's size and pressure game. But, we can at least but up a decent fight.

Leafplayer452 · Mar 18, 2010

This matchup is 35/65 Pika in my opinion, now let me explain

- Pika's chaingrab to usmash really cant auto kill you for a 0-death (especially if you DI near correctly), if I'm not mistaken Fox could jump out of Pika's CG after a certain percent (Dont know which exactly though)

- Fox could outcamp Pika, with lasers, and using reflector to save yourself from Thunder and sometimes his Thunder Jolt (neutral b attack)

- Fox could juggle Pika pretty easily, using Utilt combos at low percents on Pika could rank up to around 20-30% quickly and safely, could go up to 40-50% if you play it smart and read the Pika's reactions

I recommend you use alot of autocanceled aerials in this matchup, also to be safe, dont use Dair on Pika til he is at 50%

***In all, Pikachu could easily win this matchup if you don't know what your doing or if the Pikachu reads you and follows up the read with a good counter to throw you off track, attacks like Nair or his Thunder could do so.

EDIT: Best type of lasers for this matchup:

1. Short Hop Triple Laser
2. Short Hop Double Laser (especially if Pika jumps alot)
3. Short Hop Single Laser (for sheild pokes, but Triple Laser is better in the MU)

RPK · Apr 19, 2010

Im not sure what stuff you can Upsmash punish...I forget...I do however know that if Pikachu flies by with a Nair, we can dash upsmash that...I wonder what moves of Pikachu's you can punish

Rizk18 · Sep 16, 2010

isnt this MU 65-35 or 70-30 with the cg? how about w/o the cg?

XxAlphaxXGhaxCrew · Sep 16, 2010

Hmmm I would probably agree with leafplayer...by just camping with the lasers, its easy to rack that damage.
BUT as far as fighting pika, keep a good distance away to at least take 30-45% that way the cg is useless.
I know the pika cg is a pain in the *** but its just like fighting ice climbers...picking the right stage can also play a big role...
The matchup just takes time.

Bascially, 65:35

@RIZK18: haha without the cg i would probably say 55:45 fox, but just an opinion.

C.R.Z · Sep 20, 2010

to prove lazer camping works, i timed out a pikachu on saturday lol

KillerJawz · Sep 20, 2010

C.R.Z said:
to prove lazer camping works, i timed out a pikachu on saturday lol

Okay now to tell the full story.

Teran went Pikachu in order to gay Cloud, despite having NEVER touched Pikachu before. Teran played the entire match fishing for a grab, doing literally NOTHING else.

Conviction · Sep 20, 2010

KillerJawz said:
Okay now to tell the full story.

Teran went Pikachu in order to gay Cloud, despite having NEVER touched Pikachu before. Teran played the entire match fishing for a grab, doing literally NOTHING else.

Okay now to prove a point.

You can't just pick Pika randomly and expect an auto-win.

KillerJawz · Sep 20, 2010

Pika is one of the tougher characters to play, especially in such a... fast paced MU.

Match-up Export #11: Pikachu | In-Depth Discussion

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