Match-up Re-rediscussion: ZSS

Meru. · Mar 7, 2010

Yes, are rediscussing Zero **** Samus again. The previous rediscussion didn't go so well. Little contribution was made, especially from ZSS' side. It seems that many still don't know this match-up well.

We also don't know the ratio yet. Some say it's ZSS' favour (most of the time they are ZSS players), some say it's Peach's favour (most of the time those are Peach players) and some say it's even.

So let's re-rediscuss ;D. But first, tha rules (copyright of Rickerdy-doo-da-day):

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
As the number of characters left to discuss in the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread begins to dwindle, I've have decided to start up topics for rediscussing characters who I feel may need to be covered again. This is primarily due to potential changes in the match up, new discoveries, new tactics and how they may have affected the match up. Also, for some characters, because they were discussed a long time ago, they may be out of date

Now because I can't trust some of you on this board, I'm going to copy/paste these rules on all of these rediscussion threads:

-SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EXAMPLES/EVIDENCE/THOUGHT/VIDEO. Do not say "Snake beats Peach" or "Peach owns Wolf" or something out of the blue without explaining why, you are just wasting thread space. Keep intelligent discussion.

-We are here to learn, not fight. We're all trying to become better Peach players, so please don't get into over heated discussions - learn and be reasonable.

-This thread serves two purposes. A) To determine how the matchup goes for Peach. B) To determine how to handle the matchup. So not only post why you think it goes (see guideline below), but post strategies and what you do that works.

-Feel free to add really good tactics you discover of a character already discussed. New tactics are helpful and don't think just because its already been discussed not to add anything, or we will never get better information on the matchup as the meta game progresses!

- PLEASE let me know if you want me to highlight anything from the thread discussion into that respective character's "summary" on this page. I'm not always sure whats the best advice and whats not so help point it out to me for me to highlight

- Attempting to ridicule someone to prove your point will not be tolerated. It disgusts me when people try to do this. If someone struggles with something and you don't or if someone thinks the match up is such and such because of this and you think 'well you can do this and this, why are they saying that?' for the love of god, explain to them your viewpoint. Insults such as 'well your air game must suck if you find this hard' are pathetic, childish and I will mostly likely disregard whatever else you have to say

I wish I didn't have to feel the need to do this as it clusters up the OP of each of these topics and someones going to have a cry about me putting this but sadly, I can't trust some of you. I don't care about personal feuds or the like. Keep the discussion match up related ok?

Zero **** Samus

~~I'm the inferior blonde~~ Is that all?

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 7, 2010

Only those who need to state the opponents inferiority are inferior, Yaay.

solecalibur · Mar 7, 2010

ZSS' favor even though I get outskilled by the peach player in my area I still see how zss can wreck them to 60 /40 55/45 MU

Our characters are both blonds and females in this game get over that

Supermodel From Paris · Mar 7, 2010

Grrl power

edit: Wow I was infracted for this post. =/

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Yeah supermodel, **** noob peaches infracted me too.

I'll post something useful once I done my zss vs peach mm with yaay

Meru. · Mar 8, 2010

solecalibur said:
ZSS' favor even though I get outskilled by the peach player in my area I still see how zss can wreck them to 60 /40 55/45 MU

This argument is very, very flawed. Please bring the ZSS'es who wreck (or think they can wreck) Peaches.

Xonar said:
Yeah supermodel, **** noob peaches infracted me too.

I'll post something useful once I done my zss vs peach mm with yaay

I'm not that knowledgeable in this match-up, and I'm not even a good player, so that wouldn't be a very good idea. ;p

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Playing the matchup gives you an overall view on abilities of the characters.
Besides, you're pretty good, you just play a crappy character.

Corrupted · Mar 8, 2010

Peach's float destroys ZZS zoning game.
Peach's shield pressure ***** ZZS due do lack of fast grab.
A ZZS utilt on our shield means a sweetspot hyphen smash for the kill after 60% or a dair to more **** at low%.
Peach can edgeguard ZZS much better than most characters.
Peach can jab oos vs a well spaced landing ZZS bair.
Peach can glide toss OoS vs ZZS side B.

ZZS juggles Peach sometimes.
Dsmash ***** ground appoaches besides glide toss from far away.

55-45 Peach at least.

Xyless · Mar 8, 2010

Corrupted said:
Peach's float destroys ZZS zoning game.
Peach's shield pressure ***** ZZS due do lack of fast grab.
A ZZS utilt on our shield means a sweetspot hyphen smash for the kill after 60% or a dair to more **** at low%.
Peach can edgeguard ZZS much better than most characters.
Peach can jab oos vs a well spaced landing ZZS bair.
Peach can glide toss OoS vs ZZS side B.

ZZS juggles Peach sometimes.
Dsmash ***** ground appoaches besides glide toss from far away.

55-45 Peach at least.

Zero Zoot Suit.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Corrupted said:
Peach's float destroys ZZS zoning game. Wrong
Peach's shield pressure ***** ZZS due do lack of fast grab. True
A ZZS utilt on our shield means a sweetspot hyphen smash for the kill after 60% or a dair to more **** at low%. It also means snakes fsmash when we do it to snake, thats why we are careful?
Peach can edgeguard ZZS much better than most characters. So oh so wrong
Peach can jab oos vs a well spaced landing ZZS bair. wrong
Peach can glide toss OoS vs ZZS side B. WHICH ZERO USES THAT MOVE

ZZS juggles Peach sometimes. every second of every minute of every hour of every day
Dsmash ***** ground appoaches besides glide toss from far away. true

55-45 Peach at least.

Let's factor in that theoratically you are dead every time you use upb to recover as it is possible after hours days months of practice to dsmash peach in the upb to footstool gimp.
what about the fact that zero's item game is better then peach's?
Peach aint got that much besides shield pressure on zero, which is actually really really bad for her so that's a lucky thing right there.

Razmakazi · Mar 8, 2010

if u go as low as u can and if u stall w/ float then that whole dsmash thing is definitely unreliable.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

you cant go that low and still close to the stage without getting hit by a spaced sideB tbh

Corrupted · Mar 8, 2010

Dsmash doesn't work vs our ub B. Hotgarbage did some research.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9558336&highlight=ledge#post9558336

myth busted

Peaches turnips force a reaction and peach can punish any reaction due to low ending lag.

Peach can DI to the side of the stage offstage to avoid getting under you and fair if you try to fair/bair her.

Peaches jab can punish ZZS bair I think you're underestimating its range.

And @ the rest of the stuff w/e ZZS's are different. I just think Peach has some tools that can really upset a ZZS. Not having to appoach from the ground and not having your landing predicted are 2 things ZZS needs to prey on. When you factor in fair beats her aerials and shes in trouble when forced in her shield she looses a lot of options.

Razmakazi · Mar 8, 2010

like that slow *** move can't get airdodged lol...even characters w/ gayer sidesteps can sidestep it on reaction so avoiding side b w/ airdodge/toad/float shenanigans/double jump when we see it start-up shudn't be a problem.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Razmakazi said:
like that slow *** move can't get (peach's)airdodged lol...even characters w/ gayer sidesteps can sidestep it on reaction so avoiding side b w/ airdodge/toad/float shenanigans/double jump when we see it start-up shudn't be a problem.

olololol.

BTW corrupted, I'll ask some of my zero buddies, I don't know maybe it is different on FD.
btw zero's bair has more concrete range than marths fair, and except if your jab has more range than marths fair (LOL) then i call major bull**** on you.

its zss not zzs btw.

Razmakazi · Mar 8, 2010

well zss or any other character shudn't rly try to space bair on peach if she's on the ground anyway b/c she has rly good anti aerial moves like ftilt/fsmash, stutter-step fsmash/powershield to nair/retreat fair.

and yes xonar, don't be ********, peach's airdodge dooes work for stuff, it's still an airdodge and yes, zss side b IS slow.

that bein' said, recovering vs zss is tricky and that's rly the hardest part of the match-up against coz she can just follow u waay out there.

onstage though, peach is probably a bit better since powershield ***** zss and peach turnip camp and rly put pressure on zss. it depends. like if side b comes out we can just sh fair right into it and the hitbox misses us while peach hits zero suit. idk there are just a lot of little things.

i think it's also rly key for peach to hold shield vs zero suit and wait for her utilt to come out if you're in the middle of pressuring her with bair/dair.

idk, i think this matchup is even.

Corrupted · Mar 8, 2010

Doesn't matter how well you space it. Peach can jab OoS marths non tipper fair np, tipper fair most of the time (more shield push), can't vs tipper marth nair. Also note zss her bair landing animation exends her hitbox.

And the core of what razmakazi was talking about is true, we can just float above the hitbox and dair on reaction or just time a powershield.

And people should stop exaggerating peachs airdodge. You shouldn't be using those extra invincability frame anyway. Airdodging in general is bad too when your floaty.

Meru. · Mar 8, 2010

Xonar said:
olololol.

BTW corrupted, I'll ask some of my zero buddies, I don't know maybe it is different on FD.
btw zero's bair has more concrete range than marths fair, and except if your jab has more range than marths fair (LOL) then i call major bull**** on you.

Well that's good news, because her jab has more range than Marth's fair. I'm not 100% sure about jab1, but jab2 definitely has more range.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Corrupted said:
Doesn't matter how well you space it. Peach can jab OoS marths non tipper fair np, tipper fair most of the time (more shield push), can't vs tipper marth nair. Also note zss her bair landing animation exends her hitbox.

And the core of what razmakazi was talking about is true, we can just float above the hitbox and dair on reaction or just time a powershield.

And people should stop exaggerating peachs airdodge. You shouldn't be using those extra invincability frame anyway. Airdodging in general is bad too when your floaty.

ZSS has no real landing animation on her bair, I don't know the frame data but I think her bair has like -5 advantage or something. Btw, oos jab against marths fair is impossible frame data-wise, just sayin'

and about the airdodge thing - it's already easy to juggle floaties with zss, having a bad airdodge is not really helping, that's the point.

Even sounds good, will see though.
response to yaay:

a bit small, but it gets the point across. you can also watch the hitbox vids?

Corrupted · Mar 8, 2010

We have a -11 advantage vs a bair hitbox one frame before landing. This doesn't really happen so it could be more.

Marth fair is -5 but normally a bit more with some air frames inbetween hitbox and landing.

Peach can jab OoS zss landing bair. end of story.

Meru. · Mar 8, 2010

Eeeh, can we first cover the more basic parts of Peach vs ZSS?

MORE PEOPLE NEED TO CONTRIBUTE, CALL YOUR FRIENDS!

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Corrupted said:
We have a -11 advantage vs a bair hitbox one frame before landing. This doesn't really happen so it could be more.

source? we have no frame data lol

Razmakazi · Mar 8, 2010

corrupted is one of our frame data guys. he IS the source. and if not him, he got it from hotgarbage whose our other frame data guy.

and if you have no frame data why would you go around making assertions about how peach can't jab oos your bair? ugh, so dumb.

pch can jab or dash atk oos most moves in the game just so ya know.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

let him get zss bair frame data then

btw on the peach jab, it's because that thing cant be punished out of shield, that i know from experience. 100% SURE. and like I said before, peach's jab doesnt have enough range.

'UGH SO DUMB'

Razmakazi · Mar 8, 2010

honestly, just shut the **** up.

-sigh- at least snakeee visits these boards so he'll have something not ******** to say.

deepseadiva · Mar 8, 2010

I remember Dark had one really good tip on shielding a ZSZ bair. I'mma find it.

Otherwise, Xonar, that graphical explanation comparing Marth's fair to Peach's jab was horrendous. They're like, completely different sizes. xD

There was a video comparison I remember seeing. I'mma find that too.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

shield drop is 7 frames.

i know jab is 2 frames, dash attack i dunno but i guess like 4? sorry, no.

Nicole · Mar 8, 2010

Xonar said:
Playing the matchup gives you an overall view on abilities of the characters.
Besides, you're pretty good, you just play a crappy character.

L-O-L
Zamus is one of THE most overrated characters in the game. Peach is extremely underrated. You have no room as a ZSS player to be calling Peach crappy.

Meru. · Mar 8, 2010

He was joking ;p. Don't worry about it, it was probably because I called ZSS inferior ~~because she is~~.

But once again: more global stuff people!

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Ironboots33 said:
L-O-L
Zamus is one of THE most overrated characters in the game. Peach is extremely underrated. You have no room as a ZSS player to be calling Peach crappy.

my location said:
Holland

A ****ING MAP said:
Holland is in Europe

that same map said:
France is in Europe

Leon lives in France.
Srsly you guys are so easily trollbaited

hiROI · Mar 8, 2010

I think this match up is 50-50 or 55-45 Peach.

Peach can dashattack through Side B and just in general beats ZSS on the ground.
If ZSS bairs on our shield, we can Turnip OoS or, like Dark mentioned before, we can fair before she does another bair.
We can pressure her shield

But I give ZSS juggling us for a long time, and if not careful, she can send Peach high up and kill us with her Nair, Uair, etc. And as a Peach player, we should be able to use your items effectively if we get a hold of them.

I also played Nick.Riddle not to long ago and we went even through out our set. I had a chance to play him this past Saturday, but he was too busy to play a friendly with me

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Hiroi is pretty much correct in all of his post. I don't know for sure about the turnip throw and how that would work with an uair, but that's not confirmed anyways. Only thing I had to say is that zero's nair pretty much doesnt really kill, we'd get you with either a fair bair or uair.
Beside that, Peach does have a good item game, but one of Zero's true advantages in this matchup is mobility, and that helps a lot with item game, a Zero who knows his item stuff can really get far with turnip control.

Zero · Mar 8, 2010

Ironboots33 said:
L-O-L
Zamus is one of THE most overrated characters in the game. Peach is extremely underrated. You have no room as a ZSS player to be calling Peach crappy.

BS. Peach is trash and you're just too blind to see it.

Us ZZS mains however, fully accept the trash that is ZZS.

Dark.Pch · Mar 8, 2010

Looks like I am late for this lil ******** party.

Xonar, why in the world are you making these post when I already gone clear up all that bias talk you made in the ZSS boards. Corrupt hit you with Frame data and back up his stuff. you bring nothing and say silly crap. Havent you leanred anything? And for this player above me, quit being an idiot. The only thing that is trash is you are your character crap. You 2 clowns brought nothing to the table at all and acting like morons.

You know what I think, you people actually never fought a Peach that knows the ZSS Match up well. And stuck in the Peach mindset of" Oh she sucks, she can't kill well, crappy air dodge, gets ***** in the air, etc" Thats shows how ******** you all are.

I taught both HiROI and Kyon ZSS. Then we had Rickniddle (how ever you says that dudes name) being cocky thinking he would not lose to a Peach. And Kyon whooped him after telling him what to do. And Kyon had no clue how to play ZSS at all. Stop being bias toward Peach and your own darn character. If you can't bring a solid debate, dont post stupid ****. cause it just shows you know nothing at all.

Oh and to shut your dreams, I spoke to snakee at VC. He thinks that Peach is actually a better character than samus. And he is much better of a ZZS player then both of you childish fools. Now when you clowns stop acting like this, then I'll post something about this match up. But I refuse to talk to walls. So you 2 and other ZSS players that come in here, quit the BS or dont post in here. Your character is seriously not good and fails under pressure hard.

NickRiddle · Mar 8, 2010

Not going to argue this again.
Can a Peach please MM me?
Any amount, any tournament I'm at.
MLG Orlando?
$50?
I'll do it.
ZSS vs. Peach.
Also, Kyon has beaten me in friendlies, never in tournament.
YAY FRIENDLIES!

Oh wait, I shouldn't post here, because I'm a clown, and a fool.
Sorry Dark.Pch.
I'll just leave this here though.

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Dark.Pch said:
Looks like I am late for this lil ******** party.

Xonar, why in the world are you making these post when I already gone clear up all that bias talk you made in the ZSS boards. Corrupt hit you with Frame data and back up his stuff. you bring nothing and say silly crap. Havent you leanred anything? And for this player above me, quit being an idiot. The only thing that is trash is you are your character crap. You 2 clowns brought nothing to the table at all and acting like morons.

You know what I think, you people actually never fought a Peach that knows the ZSS Match up well. And stuck in the Peach mindset of" Oh she sucks, she can't kill well, crappy air dodge, gets ***** in the air, etc" Thats shows how ******** you all are.

I taught both HiROI and Kyon ZSS. Then we had Rickniddle (how ever you says that dudes name) being cocky thinking he would not lose to a Peach. And Kyon whooped him after telling him what to do. And Kyon had no clue how to play ZSS at all. Stop being bias toward Peach and your own darn character. If you can't bring a solid debate, dont post stupid ****. cause it just shows you know nothing at all.

Oh and to shut your dreams, I spoke to snakee at VC. He thinks that Peach is actually a better character than samus. And he is much better of a ZZS player then both of you childish fools. Now when you clowns stop acting like this, then I'll post something about this match up. But I refuse to talk to walls. So you 2 and other ZSS players that come in here, quit the BS or dont post in here. Your character is seriously not good and fails under pressure hard.

Oh yes Snakeee is a better ZZS player than me.

Dark.Pch · Mar 8, 2010

NickRiddle said:
Not going to argue this again.
Can a Peach please MM me?
Any amount, any tournament I'm at.
MLG Orlando?
$50?
I'll do it.
ZSS vs. Peach.
Also, Kyon has beaten me in friendlies, never in tournament.
YAY FRIENDLIES!

Oh wait, I shouldn't post here, because I'm a clown, and a fool.
Sorry Dark.Pch.
I'll just leave this here though.

Your the defense to explain how this match ups is the way you call it is weak. Same with the others. Quit flaging money to show off or state how arrogant you are. No one gives a damm. You and the rest failed in this debate and well as me being a one man army on your boards and failing that one. The wanna make post like this to cover up your lack of brains on the match up like the person above me. Right now you got nothing. ZSS does not win. And so have not proven anything in here. The other Peach players have with info and even frame data. Corrupt alone killed it. None of us want any of this arrogant bias BS here, so if you can't explain anything, just bounce. I honestly don't know why the mods are be light on you jokers.

Zero · Mar 8, 2010

Dark.Pch said:
Looks like I am late for this lil ******** party.

Yeah man, Peach boards can't hold a good party to save their lives!

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Mar 8, 2010

Ffs guys get on discussing the actual bloody match up, give two ****s about spelling later and actually follow hiROI's example and post...ooh, I don't know, useful stuff?

Edit: This isn't just for you guys outside the board, this is for everyone

I thought ZSS' D Smash didn't reach Peach provided she sweetspotted the ledge correctly. You want to mainly watch out for her Bair and Uair juggles, try to mix up getting back on the ground as much as possible. Be extremely wary of her Side B as well, that move hurts a hell of a lot. Judge your spacing when shielding it as to whether you can punish it or not. Try to have a Turnip in hand when zoning in on her as it makes it much easier to OoS counterattack her stuff. Can someone remind me of ZSS' main kill move, I've got a nagging feeling that it isn't Side B. Armour pieces hurt, if they're giving you more grief than they are helping get them offstage asap. Rememeber - only go to pick up an armour piece she's thrown when its stopped bouncing. If its still bouncing then you take damage if you crash headlong into it. Powershield it or I think you can jab it to stop it? I honestly can't remember

To cut the long story short, use Turnips wisely and OoS attacks wisely, combat her aerials and stuff with Fair, throw in the odd Dair...this all sounds extremely familiar lol

One final note about ZSS' D Smash - 99% of the time she'll use it twice if she uses it at all. Capitalize on a potentially accidental buffer (probably not very often) but if you do get hit, you can either DI up or to the side. Its a guessing game (I think?) as to whether she positions herself in a place to hit you or miss a follow up

#HBC | ZoZo · Mar 8, 2010

Lol @ dark peach being frame data dependent on mu's and then giving corrupt credits for saying peachs jab oos beats marths fair on shield

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