Matchup Re-Discussion: Marth

KayLo! · Mar 8, 2010

Pikachu vs. Marth
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 37:63 in Marth's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180440
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 35:65 in Marth's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=196247

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Marth Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825

Summary:

In progress.

King~ · Mar 8, 2010

35:65? seriously

oh well, there will be no convincing *shurg*

Leaf. · Mar 8, 2010

T_T Marth...there has to be SOMETHING to better the odds...

Well...the only ground move I can think of that can at least tie his range is a D-tilt...but that's only one way and he would probably come from the air.
Something I did this weekend was walk up and cancel his smash with a tilt and then hit with it again...it's not the safest thing to do, but it worked well enough. Is marth fast enough to get through? Maybe a dolphin slash could, but only if it was seen coming.

When it came to the air...well, I just try to avoid that.

Legendary Pikachu · Mar 9, 2010

Leaf. said:
T_T Marth...there has to be SOMETHING to better the odds...

That something is the skill level of the pikachu player. Look at it this way, Marth is a human character right? He just has a sword.... *emphasis on sarcasm*.

We play pikachu. We freakin evolve, man ^_^! It doesn't take bazillions of years or dozens of generations for us to evolve or advance our abilities.

All we need is:

1 lifetime,
1 stimulus (thunderstone, or for a player... it could be "determination to win, earn money, revenge, or get fame")
1 and the courage/drive to use it (the thunderstone, or your determination) ^_^

*********************
/end philisophical Poke'talk
/start reasonable Smash'talk

Well, I will face Dr. PP's marth a dozen times (He said he'll train me to beat marth ^_^) and then get back with REAL results. But with my small handful experience against Dr. PP, HRnut, and Kadaj's marth thus far, I'd have to say:

Don't get tipped. If you are gonna get cut anyways, choose how you get cut. You want mere flesh wounds.... No sliced arteries or jugulars today... ^_^

Don't take too many sword dances. DI out of up and down variations. Shield all of it and punish, or grab/SH f-air during pauses and openings. Don't let a "dancing prince" kick your ***.

Don't let Marth get back onto the stage. Jolt his recovery paths, Thunder wall him, Stay out of ledgehop f-air range and shield>spotdodge ledgehopped nair or his weird landing u-air/up-b. He's just a prince, but you are the king of that hill.

Don't get up-b'ed in the face when at 140+%. Don't make the same mistake that Sagat (streetfighter) made. Unlike Sagat, You won't even have a cool looking scar that you can brag about.

Learn how NOT to get chaingrabbed into gay tippers. Pika is no beat up plush toy. (just have a good marth do it to you for practice or friendly and get used to dealing with it)

If you shield the first F-air of marth's, PLAN AND DO YOUR NEXT MOVE BEFORE MARTH DOES! Marth's sure as heck planning something else, so you should too ^_^.

Don't get stagespiked or ken-comboed. Tech all of them and dodge the "ken." Stay below marth more of the time and u-air any mindgamed spike chances or footstool. Pika is not a volleyball--Jigglypuff is.

If you get "shield breaker'ed," just put down the controller and let the marth do his thing. You won't be waste your strength or time getting out of the stun, and you'll look like a cool, seasoned veteran while doing it.

Watch out for weird crap: n-air sour>d-smash/u-smash; jab>tipper; b-air>reverse spike; SH f-air>u-air; d-tilt>f-air fury. You worry more about the crazy psychopaths than rational thinking killers.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

Be all that you can be, fellow Pikas.

--LDPK, Legendary Pikachu

Toby. · Mar 11, 2010

Legendary Pikachu said:
If you shield the first F-air of marth's, PLAN AND DO YOUR NEXT MOVE BEFORE MARTH DOES! Marth's sure as heck planning something else, so you should too ^_^.

--LDPK, Legendary Pikachu

Marth has frame advantage if he FF Fairs the opponents shield properly.

Edit: Of course feel free to still listen to LDPK's advice, just keep in mind that such shield > punish shenanigans require him to be finishing the fair in the air, or too late to retain frame advantage.

And leaf I'm surprised the first move you thought of was dtilt. Fsmash out disjoints marth's fsmash. The lack of disjoint on dtilt makes it sort of problematic.

Oh wait sorry I'm a pokemon trainer main what is this I don't even goodbye

KayLo! · Mar 11, 2010

Toby. said:
And leaf I'm surprised the first move you thought of was dtilt. Fsmash out disjoints marth's fsmash. The lack of disjoint on dtilt makes it sort of problematic.

Actually, the end of Pika's tail is disjointed.... if you're far enough away, it'll clank with Marth's sword when you dtilt/utilt.

Granted, if you're at that distance, you were probably going to whiff anyways.

Once we get a bit more discussion going, I'll invite the Marths.

LooftWaffles · Mar 12, 2010

Talking about grounded range....... Fsmash is actually pretty useful in this matchup. NOt for killing, but for tipping him out of his approaches.

Nicholas1024 · Mar 14, 2010

A few do's and don'ts that I try to follow...

1) DON'T stay on a platform above marth. You will get U-smashed, and die.
2) DON'T stay in the air above marth. Move or QAC back to ground, unless you like being U-aired.
3) DO spotdodge F-smash instead of shielding it. When you shield, you're pushed too far away to punish.
4) That said, DON'T spotdodge the dancing blade. It won't end well.
5) DO edgeguarding with just T-jolt and thunder. If you go out for the N-air, you'll eat an F-air or a Dolphin slash.
6) DO keep marth above you. His D-air is a weakness in his game. So, when you do grab him, and you're out of combos (D-throw to N-air and F-throw to U-smash don't work any longer), U-throw or B-throw might work.
7) DO remember that U-move to thunder is always awesome, if you can pull it off.
8) If he whiffs with an Dolphin slash on-stage, DO punish quickly. I personally like to jump and N-air.
9) Basically, if he's up really close, DO shield. Usually he'll Dancing blade or Dolphin slash.

A quick question...

Given how ridiculously large Pika's QA hurtbox is, is it possible for Marth to guard the ledge? Once I took a fully charged shieldbreaker while QA'ing to the ledge. It wasn't fun. I want to know if that was user error on my part, or a tactic the Marth's could use...

Scissors Sir · Mar 15, 2010

This matchup is so bad against a marth that knows how to fight pika

if you get caught with your shield up you're gonna feel a dtilt.

If you let two dtilts hit you, you might as well drop your shield because a dsmash will pierce right through at that point

pika's dtilt/ftilt/utilt can all cancel marth's A attacks (not sure about dsmash) but this isn't a 100% reliable way to deal with marth up close. USE SPARINGLY!!!

Try to bait marth into using db. If you're just out of range to be hit. Do a short hop retreating jolt

trying to attack from above is pointless most of the time. Marth has several options out of shield to handle what you may land on him with. If you try to do a rising aerial, you'll get swatted out of the air as well

pika's only real hope against marth is fighting one that has little experience in the matchup.

Tips in this match
-run forward and shield after fthrows to try and bait dolphin slashes (which can lead to some free damage sometimes)

-back throw and up throws are your friends.

- punish b moves with b moves
on stage
jolt - missed dancing blades
off stage
thunder - dolphin slash

Want more advice? Have a secondary for this matchup

Don't get the wrong idea.. I'm NOT saying that is going to connect. I'm just sayi

KayLo! · Mar 15, 2010

Good stuff so far, guys. Inviting the Marths now.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 15, 2010

If you are shielding DB, you can shield grab after the 3rd one. He can't get the 4th one out fast enough.

LEARN HIS LAG! If you think he has more lag than he does you are gonna eat an UP-b to the face.

If we F-throw at 0%, we can't get a U-smash. However, if we F-throw him at 0% then he Up-b's away, the next time we F-throw him (assuming no more than 10% more is done) we can land the U-smash.

Edgeguarding is the easiest part of the match-up. Whether he be off the level and you are T-jolting to when he is on the ledge trying to get back on, Pikachu definitely has the advantage at that part. If we charge a F-smash his ledge hop nair misses us so he eats it. If he tries to ledge hop up-b, we should be out of range (hopefully). What I personally do is FH T-jolts that will hit the ledge or cling, depending if it hits him on the edge or not. It is extremely difficult for him to get back on.

I think 60:40. I would help if I had more than 1 marth experience. Sometimes I feel like I know the player and not the character.

Shaya · Mar 16, 2010

Strong ff game (as in not remaining in the air with lagbecause pikachu is so small and cute and will happily dash under you for a grab/upsmash/uair/nair) helps out.
If pikachu hits you towards the end of an up b you can uair him immediently to punish.
Marth supposibly has a dthrow cg on Pikachu, but this isnt true (from the testings I did, Marth is 1 frame off from being able to do it if he were to perfectly buffer, as in Pika will need to spot dodge as fast as possible to avoid a regrab). However Marth can dthrow to fsmash tipper pikachu up until tumble occurs (so fthrow x2, dthrow, fsmash = 33%).

Marth ground game involving dtilts and jabs to completely block out tjolts is good. Nair can be used to hit a tjolt and then have the second strike come in and swipe pikachu (good way of increasing your chances of the super 4th strike of nair that kills Pika stupidly early).

Edge guarding Marth with pika is only stupidly lame once Marth is over 100%.
Most marth mains would feel awkward (I know I do, Im working on it) with Pikachus faster than normal edge lag, but Marth can effectively outspace and punish all of Pikas get ups just with jab. And if you get tippered by a jab that can combo into fairs... even fsmashes... Generally safer to ftilt though.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 19, 2010

You just have to be very patient. Running is stupid in this Match-up because you will be caught in your dash when you can't shield. Walking is the best against marth because you can shield it and punish or at least put pressure oh him.

Scissors Sir · Mar 19, 2010

The only time you should run in this matchup is after a throw. There's enough time to sidestep or shield a dolphin slash.

Other than that you should walk and jump (mainly in retreat)

if you get in trouble where marth is directly under you and trying to follow you in the air, fall to the left or right to force marth to commit to following you further. Once he does this, use a QA angled in the opposite direction an then down. Always keep the max height off the ground in mind to do this at. After a couple times of doing that you can switch it up with fast fall airdodges.

gamesuxcard · Mar 22, 2010

I beleive this to be one of the matchups we have to be the most patient in, top three for sure. Esam covered the fthrow stuff, MIX IT UP. Past ten percent you can bait out or t jolt or whatever, if you're feeling balsy and you're playing a set wihere you've been mixing up your early f throw follow ups go for another grab. Punish his air game with up smash out of sheild, but make sure he doesn't make you or you'll just get sheild poked from his up b. Esam is again right on with his nair game coming on to the stage being punished with f smash, it's so good. I'll update some more tomorrow, sleepy time.

TheOriginalSmasher · Mar 22, 2010

The best thing against a Marth, is the QaC. MINDGAMEZ PEOPLE! i've played with many Marths before, (some at tourneys, others on wifi) and as long as you can QaC well enough to keep out of his hitbox range, and then get a nair in, its gold.

[FBC] ESAM · Mar 22, 2010

QAC is horrible against marth. If he sees that you do it, he can just throw out ANYTHING and hit you out of it...

Zolga Owns · Mar 22, 2010

ESAM is right. If you QAC within Marth's range(and we all know how fun that is) you will eat pretty much any attack in his arsenal. Most of the time a Fmash should be expected(in my experience).

For this matchup I'd suggest juggling Marth with lots of Up-air, downtilt to grab upthrow after you run out of moves into grab, and uptilt and ftilt angled up. Marth's down air is a weakness here.

M15t3R E · Mar 22, 2010

I used to play against some great Marths in VA, such as Kadaj and Neo. Against them, you must use all-out guerilla warfare. Be satisfied with one or two consecutive hits at a time, and back away. Oh, and use lots of t-jolt. They hate that. :D A tip: it is noticeably easier to defend against an approaching, sword-flailing Marth than it is to approach him.

Scissors Sir · Mar 22, 2010

Did that guy say QAC within range of marth for a nair? What marth players are you playing? That should only work on:

- new marth player
- overall scrubby player
- marth players who may be good but have never played a pika before
- Betty White's marth

gamesuxcard · Mar 22, 2010

I think multiple posters here have already come to the conclusion that qac spam is a bad idea.
DON'T GET GRABBED EARLY PERCENT HE CAN CHAINGRAB TO TIPPER AUUUUUGH

will post moar after school

KayLo! · Mar 22, 2010

isaccard said:
DON'T GET GRABBED EARLY PERCENT HE CAN CHAINGRAB TO TIPPER AUUUUUGH

I know he can fthrow > tipper, but he can't CG before it, can he? I thought that was disproven..... all the Marths I play do only one throw.

In any case, general question: how do you get off the ledge vs. Marth?

I had to play my crewmate's Marth in tourney on Saturday, and a good chunk of my damage came from trying to safely get back onto the stage. His sword goes through EVERYTHING. Mindgaming him into moving, then QAC'ing through him seemed to be the only thing that worked.

TheOriginalSmasher · Mar 22, 2010

unless the Marth can actually play fast enough to out play your QaC. im not saying you shold ONLY QaC, but from my experience, it just works for me anyway.

I have never seen anyone be able to grab a pikachu in mid QA.

KayLo! · Mar 22, 2010

TheOriginalSmasher said:
I have never seen anyone be able to grab a pikachu in mid QA.

It happens. QA's really not that fast.

It doesn't happen a lot, but TUSM's done it to me on occasion with DDD.

TheOriginalSmasher · Mar 22, 2010

KayLo! said:
It happens. QA's really not that fast.

It doesn't happen a lot, but TUSM's done it to me on occasion with DDD.

you mean during QA? or at the beginning of it? like, before you move.

KayLo! · Mar 22, 2010

During.

I generally don't start QA close enough for someone to grab me out of its startup. =X

gamesuxcard · Mar 22, 2010

KayLo! said:
I know he can fthrow > tipper, but he can't CG before it, can he? I thought that was disproven..... all the Marths I play do only one throw.

If they buffer correctly they can get one regrab guaranteed(might be two i don't really remember), tell your marths to learn to grab.

Getting off the ledge vs marth is tricky. Honestly, plank. Mix it up when you're getting off the ledge. Ledge hop, normal get up, get up attack, dont do something twice. That's all you can really do. He can space the hell out of you with fsmash and aerials. Plank to make him get away or just to make it hard to predict when you're going on the stage. If he's really hugging the side if you're on a stage where you can wall jump bair it's not such a bad idea. Don't be predictable with it because he can just step back and tipper you. On some stages like SV you can even jump into the stages side and get a uair, which usually makes them aggravated enough to just give you space and fight the ground battle again.

The Original Smasher, it sounds like you're playing marths that don't know the matchup very well.

TheOriginalSmasher · Mar 22, 2010

Evidently.

gamesuxcard · Mar 22, 2010

Just camp them and space your junk correctly and you'll take them all by force and make them get better

KayLo! · Mar 25, 2010

Inviting the Marths again..... because Shaya was the only one who contributed, and we could use more input from their side.

Legendary Pikachu · Mar 26, 2010

Dr. PeePee the late NC #1 PR is supposedly retiring from brawl after Herb 3 this weekend. He says it'll be his last brawl matches, but promised all of NC that he'll make sure we KNOW the marth matchup inside-out.

After Herb, hopefully i can get a few dozen all-out matches against his Marth, and get back with my experiences. From what I can see, what Mister E says about marth is VERY true. Beyond that, what separates the big boys from teh little ones is just being able to switch things up and read marth's choices.

My experiences: Kadaj, HRnut, Dr. PeePee, Mister E's Marth secondary (lol.... but true), Aizen's Marth (secondary @ the time), and Lord Karn.

KayLo! · Mar 26, 2010

The only thing I have to say against what E said concerns the tjolt thing.

A good Marth will not let you tjolt camp. They don't get annoyed by it, because guess what? His sword cuts through jolts like ****ing butter.

He can do pretty much any move he wants to counter tjolts, and he's fast enough to close in + zone Pika out so that you can't tjolt safely. I don't know why people keep saying "tjolt lots."

I'm not saying tjolt is useless in the MU..... it does make him approach to some degree (but again: he doesn't have to come the whole way), and a jolt here or there is definitely helpful. But if I see one more person bring up projectile camping or using "lots of tjolts," I swear to god I will e-scream.

Shaya · Mar 26, 2010

Pikachu is one of those match ups Marth does not get to play often.

The most successful pikachus happen to be in regions without successful Marths.
Like I know there is Z on west coast... but is he in Cali with mikehaze or las vegas? Not sure
Anther has no successful Marth mains to fight :\
And PikaPika Im not sure if he gets any experience either.

There is Xisin who used to be reasonably vocal on the pika match up... but I am not sure if he is still active/anyone with contact with him they should go yell at him.

I think its above 60:40 Marths advantage... but 65:35 seems a bit too much of a stretch.

PikaPika! · Mar 26, 2010

50:50 MU end of discussion

gamesuxcard · Mar 26, 2010

I think it's around 60:40 or 55/45, but in the pikachu boards the numbers usually go like 57.37/42.63. It's just another waiting game, like the wario mu with more fairs and airdodging on our part.

pikapikas post make me smile.

KayLo! · Mar 26, 2010

Shaya said:
Pikachu is one of those match ups Marth does not get to play often.

That's how Pika vs. anybody is. ;; We need more rat power.

PikaPika! said:
50:50 MU end of discussion

PikaPika!...... don't make me go back to the old days where I infracted you every time you posted. =P

Jkjk. <3

Toby. · Mar 26, 2010

I play shaya now and then with pikachu. I'm hardly a top 'chu but I can probably get some matches recorded if it will help the pace of the discussion a bit.

Although I will say that it is extremely unlikely that the matchup is as close as 55:45. Marth has some nasty stuff on pikachu.

isaccard, why do you think we should be using a lot of fair in this matchup? Seems foolish to me.

gamesuxcard · Mar 26, 2010

Toby. said:
I play shaya now and then with pikachu. I'm hardly a top 'chu but I can probably get some matches recorded if it will help the pace of the discussion a bit.

Although I will say that it is extremely unlikely that the matchup is as close as 55:45. Marth has some nasty stuff on pikachu.

isaccard, why do you think we should be using a lot of fair in this matchup? Seems foolish to me.

My bad, I meant fairs on their part and airdodging on ours. I was reading your post thinking "why am i talking about fairing marths?" haha.

Toby. · Mar 26, 2010

Ah that makes sense.

The problem with air dodging marth's fairs consistently is that he has substantially faster horizontal aerial mobility than us, so we aren't really gaining a positional advantage in that exchange. Furthermore, this has a significant chance of putting us in an even worse position if we land in range of his sword...which is quite likely.

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying.

gamesuxcard · Mar 26, 2010

If a marth is coming in with a fair towards me I usually don't just airdodge in my current place in the air, I try to position myself on the ground to sheild it, or just just my double jump and buffer a jolt out of it. I should have been more clear Toby, I suck =P. When I say that this matchup is kinda like playing against wario I meant you can't really approach, and a way of baiting a marth to coming towards you is spacing a baited airdodge where you know you can do something to punish/get away/mindgame/mix it up by the time the marth is coming over. You can also make him approach you with sum jolts but he jabs those away so fast you usually end up at a disadvantage once he's close enough. aim for the head suckas! treat jolts like a move, not just a projectile you feel safe spamming.

however, if i ever do airdodge a fair in place i try to ff it and jump with a uair afterwards. uair vs marth seems like a lot of our game D:

then again, uair is a lot of our game in general.

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