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Matchup Re-Discussion: Ike

KayLo!

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Pikachu vs. Ike
( Link to central matchup thread. )


Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 57:43 in Pikachu's favor
Can we CG him?: Yes

- 0% - 67% + regrab
- Fthrow x 10 > grab

- 0% - 62% + regrab
- Dthrow x 9 > grab
*First 4 regrabs are escapable with a footstool.


Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181254
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=192160 (no ratio provided)

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Ike Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202837

Summary:

In progress.
 

Pikabunz

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I'm starting to think that this MU might be even. It's just so hard to approach him with his massive range and quick jabs. If you can ever grab him, cg him to the edge of the stage and pummel till you grab release him off the stage then do your best to edgeguard/gimp him. If he tries to UpB to the ledge and can QA through his sword and grab the ledge before he can and he will fall to his doom!
 

King~

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im thinkin its his favor, which is what im hopin to figure out from this disscussion

anyway i agree hes one of the hardest charcters to approach and his range is a huge issue. jab is ridiculous, even when he just does the whole thing. its so effective with getting you out of his space, and racks damage to easily.

however i just started gaining MU experience v ike so maybe im overestimating him.

40:60 ike He spaces like marth, hits harder and dies later(maybe 45:55)
 

altairian

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I'll try to get some games against San this weekend so I can get the MU fresh in my mind and make a post. I'll also ask him to come to the thread and give his perspective because he has a lot of experience against pikapika. Couple quick points though:

Tjolt camping DOES NOT work against Ike. He can just pshield and chase you around with that ridiculously long sword.

Ike is NOT slow. His run speed is balls but his dash attack covers a lot of ground, and his neutral air has an amazing auto-cancel.
 

The Phazon Assassin

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his neutral air has an amazing auto-cancel.
Ike'S Nair has very little land lag, it doesn't autocancel, but you're right. Nair has low lag, SH'ed Bair autocancels I think, and his jab is just ******** good.

As much as I play KayLo, I don't think I've ever done this matchup with her.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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For me, different kinds of t-jolts help a little more (mix of aerial, and ground, and air>ground t-jolts). Remember that one landed jolt is about 8% which for a long range projectile is pretty hefty. Pika can space while t-jolting too so even if Ike PS's, use the time to plan your next move (Full-hop t-jolt>retreat backwards>autocancel>QaC 2 units across Ike and reverse t-jolt works for any Ike not used to QaC and not jabbing the instant after he shields).

One of my crewmates plays Ike really well, and I feel that once you get a feel for when Ike is in retreating mode and advancing mode (direction of his jumps) pika can get in there and do a ton of damage. All of Ike's moves (other than b-air) take some buildup time to hit anything beside or below Ike, so if you in Ike's face, you'll have it easy.

The hard part is getting straight in Ike's face (when he's NOT on the ground... stupid jabs/grab -_-).

I'd bait Ike into the air with different t-jolts mixed with QaC (offensive and defensive QaC's). And kill him in the air.

If the Ike is smart, then he'll do his best to whoop you on the ground with jab-cancels to grabs to wierd dash attacks and b-airs. If that's the case, you'll just have to "work hard" in that case: read him, rush in with shield or an attack if he hops towards you, if he hops away, try to run PAST his landing point and u-air/u-tilt/punish him; shield poke him with spaced f-airs and b-airs (if he's on a platform), and never let a chain-grab go to waste.

I always love racking damage when Ike's below the stage doing up-b (he's does it so that the sword blocks the ledge). I use t-jolt at the right time so that Ike just constantly runs into the grounded t-jolt and has to do up-b all over again, and again, and again. Most of the time i get in an extra 40+% easy.
 

KayLo!

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@Kyoshi: You're gonna have to do a bit better to convince anybody that it's in Ike's favor, especially if you're saying it's as disadvantaged for us as 40:60. I do think a lot of people previously overestimated the MU in our favor, but imo, it's still around 55:45 for us. I could see even as well.

Everyone's said the basics, so I won't reiterate those much..... however, LDPK brings up a good point when talking about Ike's startup lag in particular. I see a lot of people talk about how to punish Ike (implying his cooldown), but when he's in the air, everything he does takes a while to come out besides bair. Use that + Pika's much faster aerial startup to your advantage. Just be cautious at higher percentages, because a surprise RAR bair will kill you.

To get in close to Ike, you're gonna have to rely on your pshield game a lot. Punishing him OOS is ridiculously hard if he's spacing well, because we have pretty bad range + meh air speed, and most of his moves have a lot of shield push. Running underneath him and pivot grabbing or otherwise punishing from behind are also good. (LDPK touched on that as well.)

@Prime: I didn't know we could QA through his up b..... I thought our hurtbox stretching + the disjoint of his sword would make it hard to do. Is the timing strict?

I'll go invite the Ikes!
 

san.

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You can get an early lead on Ike provided you space your jolts well and get that single grab in. From the start, Ike most likely will have to approach.

However, an Ike plays this matchup correctly by powershielding those jolts and zoning you with jab and nair. Ike should not use fair that much onstage in this matchup, unless some necessary requirements are filled (you being offstage, or if you're on a platform or a position that would be hard to punish us).

Because Ike can zone pikachu fairly well with nair in the air and jab on the ground, pikachu must be very patient with timing QACs and relatively conservative when you decide to pressure us with aerials. 1 Jab could land anywhere from 16-->30+%, which puts pikachu at a disadvantage when he is trying to get the kill himself. Outright, jab and nair provides a solid defense against the majority of Pikachu's arsenal. Relying on well timed and quick approaches to breach this wall may prove to be quite challenging.


When you try to space your jolts, Ike would be ready to chase you to the far end of the stage. He will try to outprioritize you whenever you get close. On neutral stages with a platform or multiple platforms, this aids Ike immensely.


Offstage, pikachu has some tools to gimp Ike. Against a good Ike, tjolt should not gimp us, but it does guide us along a predictable path so you'll have a good guess of where and how we're going to aether.
If you're in a nice position, you may be able to tjolt Ike out of the apex of his aether. Otherwise, you should
1. Grab the ledge and hope he lands onstage or dies
2. Grab the ledge and quickly nair Ike while he is ascending with Aether (more effective at lower %s)

Even if Ike does not get gimped, he should still have fairly a hard time trying to recover if he is ever put into such a position (bad DI or good read from a CG). Unfortunately, you may be in this position only a few times in a set as long as Ike maintains proper DI, but that may be enough for you.

If the Ike avoids gimps, killing him amidst his jabs and neutral air could prove quite the challenge, especially if you wish to avoid getting killed at early percents. I think pikachu handles punishing Ike for his stronger smashes pretty well, so he may have to rely on tilts, aerials, and jabs, for much of the match. Because Pikachu can't easily pressure Ike with aerials, the Ike would know that you probably won't directly challenge him, otherwise... bad things may happen.

Ike loves platforms and smaller stages. He will probably ban FD or a similar stage. He will try to CP you Brinstar, Delfino, Battlefield, and other similar stages.

tl;dr version

From the start, avoid direct confrontation with Ike. Keep your lead and momentum over him. Go all out whenever he gets hit offstage, otherwise you may have to endure quite a frustrating match whenever any of you get close.

Hmmm.. I think the matchup may be slightly in Ike's favor.
 

King~

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i dont see why not, specially considering the marth MU ratio<.<

the fact that approaching is such a hassle, and even if we force him to approach he outranges us makes this significantly harder imo. its nto racking damge thats the problem, its actually getting in and staying in to do so. simply put we dont have an approach and our camp game isnt as effective as it could be.

turn around jab is cool

meh ill just have to be content with trying to run time, and just waiting on mistakes.
 

KayLo!

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@Kyoshi: Our camp game isn't great, but his approach game isn't stellar either, and at least we have a projectile to most likely make him come to us. One successful tjolt, and you have a free pass to play extremely lame and campy so that he's forced to go on the offensive.

You're assuming that we have to approach him when the fact is that it'll probably be the other way around, especially if you can get the CG.

However, you're right that Ike doesn't suffer as much as from our camp as some other characters do, especially considering his weight/power, which is why I think it's closer to even. But still slightly in our favor.

EDIT: Also, comparing Ike to Marth is..... lol. Marth has much better mobility, a whole different kind of zoning (with his tipper bull****), better shield pressure, and generally more options than Ike has. They're pretty different, so you can't even begin to base your opinion on the Ike ratio off of the Marth one.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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In terms of equally high skill players, I do agree partially with San when he says he thinks it's in Ikes favor slightly. My opinion (biased... just letting everyone know) is that the match may more likely be in Ike's favor, but I can't say anything definitive about the matchup (the rest of the pika's can decide).

My reasoning is: Ike's lower tier so more good Ike mains have seen AND faced the full spectrum of gay, cheap, surprise, and stupid than some pika mains. They number their every attack and oftentimes track their spacing by the pixel (pretty much). Mentally and experience-wise, they've been hardened and sharpened by a lot more stuggles and retraints.

So I feel that a majority of medium to GOOD pika's understand Ike's moveset and playstyle a lot LESS than how good Ike players understand pikachu players.

Matchup? I'd rather not get flamed by any of the other pika's or Ike mains (I deeply respect both characters).

I just know that I hate facing Ike's at short-hop and ground level and hate shielding Ike on platforms (I drift off and pika's fall-off animation is weirdly sucky).

Find the best, learn from the best, beat the best, and be the best. ^_^

--LDPK, Legendary Pikachu
 

KayLo!

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I can't even begin to decipher what you just said..... except that Ike players will generally be better prepared because they're lower tiered, so they've been better shaped by their struggles?

That's a pretty unfair statement. We're supposed to be comparing the characters, not their players, and having the mindset that the Ike player will be somehow better prepared because he's lower tiered and had experience being gayed because of it...... is a weird assumption to make in a MU discussion.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Either way, let's try to keep this very matchup-based and not get into player philosophy unless it's really helpful info. No offense. :urg:
 

Legendary Pikachu

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I can't even begin to decipher what you just said..... except that Ike players will generally be better prepared because they're lower tiered, so they've been better shaped by their struggles?

That's a pretty unfair statement. We're supposed to be comparing the characters, not their players, and having the mindset that the Ike player will be somehow better prepared because he's lower tiered and had experience being gayed because of it...... is a weird assumption to make in a MU discussion.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Either way, let's try to keep this very matchup-based and not get into player philosophy unless it's really helpful info. No offense. :urg:
Oh, yea.... My apologies on straying away from "matchup" discussion ^_^;

You'll have to excuse me... long time no post (^_^).

What you can take away from my discussion above (matchup-wise): Yes, I agree, on a platform defending againt Ike sucks (at least for me).
 

san.

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So I feel that a majority of medium to GOOD pika's understand Ike's moveset and playstyle a lot LESS than how good Ike players understand pikachu players.
I confirm and understand PikaPika has not learned the Ike matchup with pikachu given a year and a half's time =D. lol I kid, I kid.

Since there are 3 pikachus in my region, that's where I put most of my opinions/experience. I even 2nded pika for a while. It's up to you guys whether you interpret my/other people's opinions as well as your own as 45:55 either character, 50:50, or other tbqh.
 

King~

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i can!!!!! lol

too me saying we dont have an approach and we cant effectively camp(sans just running away in general), this isnt in our favor. theres a good chance its even or slightly in ikes favor to me(clear overexaggeration from before lol)

to move on with the disscussion, how do most pikas score their kills(from both points of view plz)
 

KayLo!

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Awwww, PikaPika!, lol. It's okay. *patpat*

But uhhh, sad emo feelings aside, do you have any actual advice on the MU?
 

Legendary Pikachu

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how do most pikas score their kills(from both points of view plz)
For me, (i admit, i've never faced [BUT WOULD LOVE TO FACE] San yet) most of my kills result in:

1) that "from edge, drop, sour nair when Ike is up-b'ing from below" --you are most definitely right, San

2) Landing thunder super hitbox and u-tilt/u-smash>thunder when Ike is forced to side-b.

3) Trapping Ike in my lil' cycle of t-jolts under the stage is how I sometimes get lucky kills.

Any kind of gimp if you can help it.

The other ways are pretty much normal: damage and land the kill.

Criss-cross Ike's shield with f-air (prime spacing) and read what comes next right. If he buffers a turn around jab, an u-air > N-air maybe a potential kill if you can do during the gap from shielding to jabbing. If Ike does b-air, shield it and n-air out of shield. That's a n-air kill, so that would require Ike to be around 130+% percent at the very minimum.

That's about as far as my experience goes for the quicker kills. Easy kills against a grounded Ike are close to none.

--LDPK, Legendary Pikachu

PS. To San: By the way, my Ike-maining crewmate ABSOLUTELY LOVES YOU, and ryko, and ninjalink, and couple others.
 

Scissors Sir

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You have to play this matchup a little slower than usual.

If Ike takes to the air and you're not close enough to close the distance And shield b4 that nair falls... Don't try it!

Jolts only really help in this match if the Ike player already committed himself to an attack. You can use them to bait a shield for a grab oppurtunity.. But even that can be risky against Ike at times.

Dtilt or low angle ftilt for close quarters if you're ever able to get in close enough.

Instead of trying to camp the entire match, I find it beneficial to stay at a dash and a half distance. Basically far enough away that you can dash in and space safely on jabs and still be close enough to close in on Ike for those ever-so-pesky nair assaults

throw jolts to condition the ike to shield so that you can mix-up dashing in at different distances.


There's two distances you need to keep in mind when you dash towards Ike

Nair punish distance and jab punish distance

for a nair punish, pika has to already be somewhat near to Ike to close the gap quick enough. (safest punishes after successfully closing the distance on nair w/ shield up are: nair OoS, grab, upsmash OoS) any other punishes would be too character position specific


To punish jabs, you want to dash right outside of ike's jab range but not close enough to get grabbed.

Once pika's in this range, Ike will either try a:
1) retreating nair (highly dependant on how well you've punished nairs in the match thus far)

2) jab (expecting you to drop your shield since you're out of grab range)

3) grab attempt

4) other (lol how explanatory)

the good thing in this matchup is that even for his great moves (nair, jabs) once he does something he's pretty much committed to it.


Watch out for nair timings as well. Experienced ikes will lull you to sleep with a couple slow nairs and then whip out faster falling ones that are harder to punish but not impossible.

You'll want to throw out jolts alot in the opening seconds of the match.

But when you do, try to be in an area of the stage where if you get a grab off, you can get a decent number of grabs in b4 you reach the stage's edge.

Matchup ratio??

Inexperienced Ike 60:40 pika

experienced Ike 50:50

if both players are equally good at punishing, it will come down to who can work the clock better and I think pika does have the slight advantage in that area. Shielding a jolt allows pika to QA overhead to the other side of the stage w/o worrying about an aerial OoS from Ike.

This is an annoying match for both parties involved though that's for sure

btw San did you go to polybrawl? Next tourney we're both at we gotta have some friendlies
 

KayLo!

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All right.... taking into account everybody's opinions, I'm gonna change the ratio to 50:50.
 

PZ

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All right.... taking into account everybody's opinions, I'm gonna change the ratio to 50:50.
Hold up Klo I really dont think its 50:50 it probably be a little in pikas favor like 52:48 but definetly not even since we can cg him to a good %60 but his uair *****. I was facing a cpu using that uair I couldnt find anyway around it
 

M15t3R E

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Hold up Klo I really dont think its 50:50 it probably be a little in pikas favor like 52:48 but definetly not even since we can cg him to a good %60 but his uair *****. I was facing a cpu using that uair I couldnt find anyway around it
That's a good point. Don't forget about the CG. Ike is basically Marth but has sacrificed speed for power. It's much more practical to approach Ike than Marth, and get in the CG early and almost half his stock is done. If you don't get f-smashed into oblivion early on, there's no reason why a Pika should struggle against Ike.
 

Syko_Lemming

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That's a good point. Don't forget about the CG. Ike is basically Marth but has sacrificed speed for power. It's much more practical to approach Ike than Marth, and get in the CG early and almost half his stock is done. If you don't get f-smashed into oblivion early on, there's no reason why a Pika should struggle against Ike.
Cause he can short hop nairs that eat what we've got to approach with. among other things
 

altairian

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That's a good point. Don't forget about the CG. Ike is basically Marth but has sacrificed speed for power. It's much more practical to approach Ike than Marth, and get in the CG early and almost half his stock is done. If you don't get f-smashed into oblivion early on, there's no reason why a Pika should struggle against Ike.
I'm not sure you've played a truly good ike =\

His jab (and associated jab cancel shenanigans) is extremely hard to work around. It's hard to grab Ike if he doesn't want you to. It's true Ike is slower than Marth, but his sword is just as long (longer?), his jab is WAY better, his aerials are all strong kill moves except nair, which has no landing lag so you're not gonna punish the landing on it ever, and he only needs to land a few hits to get us to kill %.

The only thing that makes the MU not as bad as the Marth MU to me is the fact that Ike's recovery is easier to gimp/not going to straight up kill you if you challenge it and mess up. Personally I'd say 55:45 in Ike's favor, but I'm not gonna argue with 50:50.
 

PikaPika!

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Be careful of jabs and retreating fair into jab and nair into jab, while offstage watch for aether gimps, dont fall into stupid **** like air dodging to his smashes, jolt camping is basically useless if he holds A, watch out for jab to uptilt or dtilt if near a ledge, bair will be his most used kill move
 

KayLo!

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but his uair *****. I was facing a cpu using that uair I couldnt find anyway around it
Airdodge through, QA/QAC away, or fastfall + beat it with a faster aerial. His uair is pretty slow (frame 15), and it's usually fairly obvious when he's going to use it.

Saving your second jump is best, though. =P
 

Syko_Lemming

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Maybe you can time your approaches to get through it.
It would be very hard to do, he can mix up the nairs with fairs and jab shinanigans.

If you do get caught in a jab, try to DI out, if the ike gets greedy you can get out and do something. At high percents it can kill, and good ikes expect people not to DI out, so if they start getting greedy, you might wanna try it, but it's risky.
 

altairian

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You have to fastfall before airdodging in order to not get hit by Ike's uair. If you're slowfalling the hitbox lasts long enough to still hit you after the airdodge ends.
 

KayLo!

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Airdodge=fail
You have to fastfall before airdodging in order to not get hit by Ike's uair. If you're slowfalling the hitbox lasts long enough to still hit you after the airdodge ends.
What alt said, lol.

Also, it depends on which side of Ike you're on. The hitbox starts behind him, moves to his front, then ends behind him again..... so if you're at his front, it's much easier to airdodge through.

However, like I said, saving your second jump is best. You're taking a gamble with any other option.... although QA'ing away is pretty reliable since his uair lasts a while, and Ike isn't exactly speedy movement-wise. You should be able to recover from QA's cooldown before he can get to you.
 

gamesuxcard

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let me go more in depth.

throw more tjolts. di all the way through jab. make sure you don't get greedy. win.

<3
 

PZ

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let me go more in depth.

throw more tjolts. di all the way through jab. make sure you don't get greedy. win.

<3
<.<" DI through jab ALL THE WAY" very helpful you obviously never faced a good ike. SHFF Nair ***** hard its like marth spacing with fair basically its hard to find a opening but its possible since ike is the lagier marth.
 

gamesuxcard

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i play arturo randomly. he seems like a gud ike. di through the jab so you are behind him and sheild if he's going to try to get this said nair. before the nair comes out I usually go make a sandwich. okay, nair is out now. dammit i didn't get a drink. okay, so now i have a sandwich and my drink and nair is almost done. it's almost over, oh man kk slider is playing tonight. there's the cooldown. okay cool, do any move.
 
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