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*NEW* matchup discussion week #9: Fawks!

Denzi

Denzi

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Fox this week guys.



Fox McCloud, another animal from space. Does this mammal beat our bird?



Discuss!



(I'll try to update as the the discussion advances.)
 
DEHF

DEHF

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I think the match up is pretty even. It's difficult for both players to camp each other so they're forced to play pretty aggressive. Falco can rack up damage quickly with his chain grabs and other things and doesn't have much trouble killing Fox since he's pretty light. Fox can also rack damage pretty well, but not as well as Falco and Fox can kill Falco much quicker than Falco can kill him. In terms of edge guarding I would say Falco has a slightly better edge guarding abilities than Falco.
 
M@v

M@v

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Yes, Falco definitely edgenguards better than Falco.

=P



anyway, I'll be making a big writeup for this one. I used to main fox for a long time, and have a huge amount of experience with this matchup from both Fox's and Falco's viewpoint. I strongly believe this matchup is 55:45 Falco. Expect the writeup tomorrow night or Thursday.
 
Typ_Ex

Typ_Ex

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60:40 falco

falco has a standing chaingrab on fox til about 48% and then could get a laser lock off if lucky. if memory serves me correctly, the spike will work starting at 36% but could be done at around 48%. and there are numerous gimping possibilities. if you miss though, youre screwed. Fox's dair doesn't have a lot of priority and you can see an u smash coming from a mile away.
 
Typ_Ex

Typ_Ex

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do you mean rising fair or firebird or fox illusion in terms of recovering?
 
#HBC | ZoZo

#HBC | ZoZo

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55:45 for falco. I actually discussed this mu on the fox boards, check their thread over there. Fox is gay to play against
 
E

Elyssa Xey Hexen

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As DEHF said, camping is strictly a no no in this match-up. It's simply too difficult to out right camp the other. Fox can turtle in a way inside making you have to approach. Although, I doubt any fox actually does this anymore. It's too risky given fox is stuck stationary while you have access to a long distance range attack (phantasm). Also, fox can mimic falco with the SHDL method. It's useful because of fox's speed and falling speed that he has very good mobility while being able to space and camp at the same time.

You can try to reflect them, but really it's pointless to reflect fox's lasers back at him. The range on them is very small meaning you would not likely see fox's lasers hit him back. And if Fox is SHing all the time, you would only reflect like one laser at a time. Reflector simply has too much lag that fox can capitalize on, so do not try to reflect the lasers.

Falco's Ground Game > Fox's Ground Game. Pretty much Falco has the safer defence against fox, while fox does not have much of a defensive game. We have a silent laser that combos into other attacks, and more range in terms of the jab and grabbing range too. Fox simply has more mobility and strength in his attacks.

What really makes the match-up difficult is fox's SHing about. The speed he has can achieve some pretty good mix-ups that can get by falco's defences, and when that happens it's a juggle/edgeguard game against us which we are pretty bad at.


I say that if you take your time, and try to make sure Fox makes the first move, you will find you can punish a lot of his antics. 60-40/55-45 Falco. Overall, nothing really has changed since the last time we looked at this. I think that Fox's simply learned to abuse their mobility and options out of SHDL instead of outright run away and fire a blaster away.

Oh, and the utilt chain is really avoidable. You just have to SDI the hit early on and you will land on the ground. Roll away shortly there after to avoid a grab or something like that.
 
G

gunterrsmash01

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I'm pretty sure Fox can just illusion again after the laser, cause thats what falco can do in dittos
 
G

gunterrsmash01

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Xonar said:
Fox falling speed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Falco's
Click to expand...
oh well since shooting a laser at falco doesn't stop him from reaching the stage, i think shooting a laser at fox's illusion would force him to go the edge. Don't think he'll have to use firefox though, must try it out
 
#HBC | ZoZo

#HBC | ZoZo

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I think it does, I spam grounded lasers when fox's are recovering and occasionally get a gimp from it because they have to firebird, they might just do it wrong though.
 
Bloodcross

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BleachigoZX said:
You can jab Fox out of Firefox.

Not sure if it can be done to Falco though.
Click to expand...
No way Bleach - regarding the Fox jab on Falco.

Yeah I spam grounded lasers against Fox when he's offstage as well - Falco dittos too.

Just a theory/question but, can Falco's UpTilt be used in the same way against Fox as it is used against Wario? Like can we halt Fox's Dair like we can against Wario's Dair when he's in the air (shining) preparing to Dair?
 
Jon?

Jon?

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Jab combo is a very easy way to rack up lots of damage. Since Fox is a fast faller, he can't get out of it as easily as other characters.
 
erick gm14

erick gm14

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DARNIT DENZI make me wanna watch There Will Be Brawl again xDD

our tilt>their dair

this MU is 55-45 or 6-4 us, just as long as the falco isnt stupid to get shine gimped, or greedy. wen it comes down to kills, they both suck, whoever shields a smash wins w/ oos smash.. falcos ftilt>>fox ftilt =P
 
BleachigoZX

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Bloodcross said:
Just a theory/question but, can Falco's UpTilt be used in the same way against Fox as it is used against Wario? Like can we halt Fox's Dair like we can against Wario's Dair when he's in the air (shining) preparing to Dair?
Click to expand...
Yeah it works, but Fox can shine stall the uptilt and come down with the Dair anyways.
 
Viperdev

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BleachigoZX said:
Yeah it works, but Fox can shine stall the uptilt and come down with the Dair anyways.
Click to expand...
yea i never liked being directly under fox no matter what char i'm using, cuz if you get faked out with the shine u can expect a dair to god knows what

so normally when i'm falco and i do get under him i would get off to the side a little to where i'm not directly under him but he's still is in my range and then immediately do a nair off a full hop so if he does do a shine to fake u out ( and most likely he will) the rising nair will still hit him and even if he doesn't shine and just dairs u'll b out of his range but he'll still b in range of your nair (but you prolly just won't hit him with all 3 wings)

but i assume it can b punish by fox using his double jump then doing a dair (or maybe even a b or fair if your out of range) so i would say don't get predictable otherwise they won't do if as much.
 
M@v

M@v

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Played this matchup at the smashfest yesterday. The grounded laser works sometimes. If you time it right as they are using rising fair, they WILL have to firefox. If they are close enough they can land on stage....right into my fsmash x)
 
Conviction

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Augh...... Only (Fox) in here is M@v.... I'll just link the others to here.

I'll agrue later. Got a soccer game.
 
Teran

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Even though Fox is extremely light, he's a super fast faller Usmash will kill slightly later than you think.

Of course this doesn't mean Fsmash him often or something because that's laggy and risky but just saying that the comparative KO potential on them is a lot different than an average character.

Also Fox has the ol' space animal recovery. We can edgeguard him just as well as we get edgeguarded. Makes you :) and :( at the same time.
 
swordsaint

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Terans posts make me :).

postives
I think we go 60/40 to Fox. Potential zero death, and the fact we can edge guard him [almost] as well as he us, is a real positive. As long as we're not throwing out dumb attacks his smashes shouldn't hit, and neither hould a drill smash due to being able to clash with dair, even though most of the time we'll get out the way instead, because taking no damage is still better than clashing. Fox's fast falling, means a slightly higher chance of laser locking from the usual set ups. because of his weight, jab combos should be slightly more effective too, so if he's keeping on the pressure a lot, 2 frame jab ftw. His similarly weak recovery means we have a bit more kill opportunities.

problems in the match up
Unable to force the approach on fox with lasers, because of reflector
dangerous smashes to watch out for.
half decent combos from fox
shine spiking

to me, the whole idea of this matchup is to control the stage and keep the pressure on up close. make sure he doesnt room to get fancy
 
DEHF

DEHF

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Laser locking fox isn't as good as most characters, you can only get about 5 lasers.
 
swordsaint

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first I'll ask why

then I'll say, well what does it matter when 5 lasers means he's probably close enough to follow up on
 
Teran

Teran

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Hey DEHF what about platform laserlock?
 
Typ_Ex

Typ_Ex

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the laserlock that works on fox and some other characters usually doesn't involve a platform. Also with about 5 lasers the only thing you coudl really follow upw ith before fox gets up is like a bdacus or somethign.
 
M@v

M@v

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xIblisx said:
Augh...... Only (Fox) in here is M@v.... I'll just link the others to here.

I'll agrue later. Got a soccer game.
Click to expand...
What others? j/k.


But seriously my opinion on this matchup has stayed the same since my fox maining days...
 
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