Matchup Re-Discussion: Lucario

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 44:56 in Lucario's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201329
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Lucario's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221578

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Lucario Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211488

Summary:

In progress.

yay first post!

alls i can say is, i dont think ive ever played a gayer campier spamier MU in my life. its like camp or be camped especialy in this MU. Ive found that theres a few important things here.
1) dont be above him...........ever. his usmash is out there for years and and low % that utilt can be a ***** gettng trapped in.

2) when he gets at higher %'s, be careful. idk how many times ive had him at like 120 or so and been egging for that kill and end up getting hit twice and lose the lead. Lucarios moves dont stale essentially cuz even when they do his bs aura brings em back to fresh.

That said, the MU is in his favor, we cant outcamp him so dont even try. our strings of little combos are still viable here unlike the weegee MU -_-, so throw as many of those as you can in ur game. his dtilt has pretty good range but im not sure if it outpaces our dtilt, (check me on that kloz). he's def got more range then us but then again almost everyone has more range than us. as always watch the aura ball, when he is hurt that thing can hit for up to 40%, and that is never fun.

In my opinion the best thing to do wld be try for that early thunder KO setup because the longer you beat his *** the stronger he gets and the harder it gets to kill him. since pikas kill moves all force you to get in fairly close that thunder setup wld save alot of pressure time trying to kill him when he gets strong.

The one nice thing about this MU is that if the lucario is recovering low, he/she dosent deserve to main lucario. his recover is junk if hes going for the ledge since he dosent damage. A good thing ive found is to hog the ledge then as soon as u see his extreme speed come out get up off that ledge and punish wth fair, dair, or w/e u can get off. Thunder edgeguarding works well too, just be careful of those aurballs as they may try to spam em to keep u away.

At 0 % i THINK fthrow to running usmash hits wth the tip of the tail, but im not 100% sure since hes so floaty.

also watch for the stupid 2 jab to grab/side b. if you see the jab start di back, its super slow and shldnt be a prob if u just mash that stick. Just be careful cuz if ur beating him up to like 130 and he grabs u fthrow can kill if u dont di right.

Lucarios roll..............and his roll can get him behind you from what would seem like an impossible distance, so be ready avoid that. rolling, spamming, camping. thats how most lucarios i play do it, just watch for those 3 things and it shldnt be to bad...............but then again it IS lucario and hes notorious for being the comeback king.......hes like rocky.....cept without the speech impediment.

Thats all for now! if i think o anythng else ill post. ^_^

2'nd for the win!

Source: Because my brother mains Lucario. DX

Will edit this post if I think of anything more.

I think that the more important thing to remember about Lucario is that you can't win an aerial fight with him. His aerials are better than ours because of their slight disjointedness, and don't try to come up under him with an Uair because if he predicts you, he'll Dair you in the face. Likewise, all of his others are better than ours. Stay out of the air. Our ground game > his ground game.
If you are eating a barrage of Fairs, and he is pushing you to the edge with them like a Ken Combo of sorts, then DI towards and below him. This will get you behind him so you won't be trapped in his manslaughter and you could punish if you think you can, or go for something else.

If he's coming down from atop you with a flurry of Dairs, and he is far enough away, thunder him. I don't think he can stop and DI away in time to avoid it, and the Thunder lasts too long to airdodge it.

My brother likes to charge an aura sphere as he's recovering back to the stage and launch it at full power right at the edge to get you away so he can recover. It's annoying. And it's ESPECIALLY annoying when he spams it. I like to jump over his ballz and wait for him to stop spamming, and then he approaches me when he is fed up with me camping him with Tjolts. But that might just be his poor playing. Also, be aware that when he's charging his AS, it can damage you and possible trap you. Be ready to jump/powershield it if you get trapped and he rolls, because he will probably fire it.

His jab is relatively slow. if you manage to shield grab him out of it, which is relatively easy, make sure you try to thunder setup like Zero suggested. I think its a very good idea to kill with thunder. Unlike other characters, Pika has to kill Lucario fast and early because he gets stronger. And pika's light weight is bad for this.

It's also very important to know that if he is far away enough from the stage, EDGE HOG HIM. His Uspecial does no damage, so just hang there and wait for him to die. If he trys to use it near the edge, jump and Nair/any aerial him. He will go right back off. Also, if he is recovering from above, THUNDER. If he extremespeeds around or over it, punish him out of his special fall. If he airdodges, then get away. You will most likely eat a Dair again. If he is forced to use his Uspecial, move in to punish. He also has a bit of cooldown time for hitting the ground during his Uspecial animation, so just go up and Fsmash or grab him lol.

If you get trapped in his Utilt, mash your analog and C stick like mad. He won't stop his madness until you get out of it.

I would not suggest rolling around Lucario either, because a lot of his moves cover a large area, such as Dsmash or Utilt, or even his Nair, because he will get you. If your gonna roll anywhere, i suggest rolling away unless you are sure he won't hammer you with the Dsmash or something stupid.

Also, lots of Lucario's smashes are a little delayed, so keep in mind that spot dodging might be better if you are a little delayed. His Fmash has slammed me countless time because I spot dodged too early. Also, his jab is not good to spot dodge either.


Recovering with skull bash is a bad idea, because you will get punished with yet another Dair to the face. Use quick attack to zip around him, he will more than likely not hit you. Now the thing to watch out for is the AS off the stage. When you are recovering, always be watching him because he will probably try to slam you with AS from the edge. This is certain doom for Pika.

I have fought Lucarios that, when recovering from below the stage, will cling to the edge of the stage and wait, then jump to recover. If this happens, then just Tjolt him. I think I've gonne two or three good gimps from this because of his punishable Uspecial.

If you manage to FF Fair Lucario, I would suggest an immediate grab or some tactic that is just as fast. This is because my brother ALWAYS utilts me when I try to utilt him straight out of it. It comes out faster than our Utilt, and is not fun to be hit with.
I would reccomend Usmash out of the Fair, but looking at the hitbox frames (Lucario's utilt hitbox comes out on the 5'th frame), I wouldn't do it unless you are sure he won't utilt you. I just was hoping it would be faster so you could set up for Thunder at higher percentages for the KO or something.

Also, I like this post from the original thread. Thanks a lot Mister_E!:

Mister_E said:

Oh dear Lord. I hate fighting Lucarios.

Lucario is naturally a beast at spacing. His aura will shoo you away if you try any one of Pikachu's many approaches.
There is 1 decent way to approach. It's too fast for Lucario and really any other character as well. QAC, QAC, QAC. Oh yeah, and more QAC. QAC again. Then QAC some more.
The spacing and timing problem that is hard to overcome against Lucario, you can make up for in blistering speed.

Also it should be noted that your t-jolt cancels out his small-medium sized aura sphere, but not his larger ones.

In the air, it's again all about spacing and timing. He has more range than you in the air.
Don't go all ferocious DBZ-style aerial combat on him. You'll fail every time against an experienced Lucario.
Instead, try to drop down fast and mindgame him into thunder or d-smash.

If the Lucario is very aggressive, and most Lucarios are not, then d-tilt, t-jolt, and grabs will do wonders for you.
Fortunately, on the ground you can FF fair combo him easily if you can just initiate it by hitting him with the FF fair. But his spacing is naturally godly and it will require some advanced mindgames and great timing.

Lucario > Pikachu

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(More to come later definitely. When i think of it.)

I don't have a lot to say about the matchup because I haven't played a lot of lucarios, but like most any matchup: make him approach and play smart.

When I say make him approach it's really short for once you get any sort of a lead, I don't care if it's one percent, make him approach you. Get to the other side of the stage, double jump dem tjolts so they dont get eaten by aura spheres and don't use pikas cool mobility stupidly and get hit by one. Once he's in he'll probably wall of fair, wait for another aerial and punish it. Fair isn't worth trying to punish.

getting into him, sheilding his junk, and getting a uair/utilt, and getting out. I guess I should have said something along that. But uair/utilt is what I feel most comfortable doing when a lucario is close, but only as a punish to his aerials, if he's just coming down on you and sees it you'll get daired. ;_;

other peeps should suggest what they like to do to poke in a few percent.

note. as i found yesterday ur dair can actually cancel out an AS.......it was medium sized one i THINK so dont try that crap on a fully charged one. just be careful when playing him as isaac and xero said....since he can space so well if u CAN get a lead, force an approach, but wth lucario that can be tough cuz hes hard to get in on, just dont go agro on a luc.....dont go agro ever really lol, pikas style has been misinterpreted as agro by some when its actually very passive and based on reading and deciding when to get in. our range is crap, reading is our life.

ah lucario, probly my most practiced MU next to R.O.B and Marth

its odd that the new MU disscussions i play alot but i cant say what im thinking(i cant form words or something)

just a ratio 4-6 lucario, if i can figure out what i want to say ill post more

at higher percents if ever gets above you, just runaway and hide

Salutations, Pika mainers.

Aura Sphere is amazing as it beats a lot of Pika's stuff.

This pretty much means that we beat everything you can normally expect to hit with when we are at killable %s.

Assuming fully charged Aura Spheres at the same stock.

ruined said:

Pikachu:
dtilt:49(16)
skullbash, uncharged:58(17)
ftilt:68(18)
nair:104(21)
dair:104(21)
usmash:117(22)
fsmash:129(23)
fully charged skullbash:never

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John12346 said:

29% beats Pikachu's Thundershock.

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(14%)

Aura Spheres that do 14% shut down your Thunder Jolt. Be wise with it or else!

Smart Lucarios will bait your QAC and punish you for it. I like to sometimes throw out a random utilt when I suspect a Pika is gonna try to QAC me. Even if we hit each other Lucario will do more damage.

Also, at low % uncharged Aura Spheres might go under your Thunder Jolt resulting in both characters hitting each other.

If you're in the air we can and will try to punish your landing lag with Aura Spheres.

With your agility and wise use of QAC you might be able to get around some of our stuff.

Offstage/at edges don't expect to really catch good Lucarios with your Thunder much. We can just use DAir and stall until we can properly recover. Also make sure you're not open to get smacked around by our Aura Spheres too... Thunder's cooldown is meh...

Anywhere we can easily camp is bad news for you.

We Lucarios have some advanced techniques we still gotta research too, which would make this match-up potentially more favorable to us. If you whack our shield with a USmash or a FSmash we might hit you with a rising DAir that can move horizontally (I call it Air Walking). Makes us even more dangerous, no? Again though this is still in research and hasn't been fully tested/understood.

If I were to guess at the numbers I'd say this is Lucario's favor 60:40.

Once we have good % were going to camp to you.

We can charge and powershield Tbolts and outcamp you.

Your Quick attack also has problems getting through our huge hitboxes so use it with caution [I'm still pissed its a better move then EXTREMESPEED in this game <<]

Its hard for you kill us, but then again its sometimes difficult to land a kill move on pikachu, you're pretty light though so once we're high enough you'll GO FLYING.

Go bother Stauffy or Auto about this MU they know more then me.

I just know its a solid advantage for lucario.

our export kinda outdated though
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=237213


Also No smart lucario will ever get hit by that bull**** japanese combo with thunder + grabbing unless they don't know about it.

King Yoshi said:

ah lucario, probly my most practiced MU next to R.O.B and Marth

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This is good to know.

Our Dair doesn't go through his fair?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZghDI-AcKJc

i believe this vid should help....

or just make you more depressed... in depends.

as you can see, Lucario's range is pretty beast. Your going to have to be quick as a mouse to avoid getting *****.

Well...I have a couple of questions and I apologize if they were already answered:

1. Down Throw> Upsmash - Legit Combo on Lucario at Mid percent? Or can Lucario jump out or Dair?

2. Does Pikachu have any moves that out priortize Lucario? Would these be upair, up tilt, and down tilt or moves like back air/fair?

I don't think we can mid percent down throw upsmash, but I could (and hope to) be wrong.

I don't mean to be a pencil pusher, but I am curious what numbers you guys would give this now.

Well....to be honest I always expect the dair even at lower percents because you can sheild grab it pretty easily. After that if they air dodge away i just try to run and regrab or pivot grab for a free throw.

So down throw>upsmash isn't legit at all on lucario? (Hmm)

Since I haven't seen anybody say this...

The place you want lucario in this MU is off the level. Use T-jolts to force his DJ or a weird angle for recovery, and drop off the ledge with nairs/fairs/bairs so trap his up-b. His up-b has no hitbox, so it is easy %. Make sure you don't let him wall cling and then bair you if you are too slow. This MU basically depends on how much you can get him off the level with our pressure game. Even if lucario outspaces us, once we get in (Don't use moves that pop him up, use more D-tilt/f-tilt/grabs) we have to push him to the edge. If the lucario is camping when we are losing, if one hits him we have to close in like a bat out of hell. Don't be too careless though, ledgehop fair would beat basically everything, but you can outspace that with a D-tilt to keep him off.

So yeah...ledge game is important.

Urban Menace said:

Well....to be honest I always expect the dair even at lower percents because you can sheild grab it pretty easily. After that if they air dodge away i just try to run and regrab or pivot grab for a free throw.

So down throw>upsmash isn't legit at all on lucario? (Hmm)

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I think it works at like 0%, but that's pretty much it.

I agree with the above poster's info, the best position for Pika is edgeguarding lucario, although imo he has to do it differently (thunderguarding's nearly useless, Lucario can dair stall just out of pika's thunder and not lose too much vertical distance) and Lucario more often than not recovers from above usually, t-jolts are great for trapping him if he gets too low, but I think your best bet is like fair and uair/nair shenanigans, old-school edgeguarding aerials.

After I learned to play this more like the Luigi MU (never let the little bugger get close to you, and aerial wall away), I can see Lucario's tangible advantages in the MU.

Uair footstool is god for edgeguarding. It really works :D (At least it works on lucas, it should work on lucario too)

Is fthrow off stage> QA through to take the jumps too risky of an edge guard against lucario?

This might ruffle some feathers but here it goes...

I started to think about when I would do well in a matchup against lucario and how, and for some reason what came to mind was a decent amount of powershielding and blocking/not getting hit. So I went to check the frame data and came to realize that lucario is a fairly slow character in comparison to pikachu. Even his movement on the ground and in the air seems slow. So in that sense, I think this is a matchup that generally gets better as you become more familiar with lucarios moves and especially depending on how well you can powershield and patiently block or dodge his attacks (aside from dair, that move is freakishly fast and good).

Granted as mentioned that doesnt matter unless you can actually get in to attack him, but powershielding and dodging auraspheres to move in is even easier than dealing with tjolts, its just important to be patient. Once youre close if you are patient about his range you should be able to rack up some damage, and while there using pikas fast attacks and amazing walking speed should get the job done. Overall I think this is an easier version of fighting marth, but could end up being like fighting game and watch as far as getting hit by things you shouldnt (consequently that makes this matchup impossible on wifi, lol). No one will agree with me, but I think this mu is maybe slightly worse than even.

I dont disagree with any of the problems mentioned. But yeah, I was basing it off recent experience and looked at the frame data to confirm it. I know it sounds like a copout to say to powershield and block, the only reason I emphasize it is because to me it did feel like a make or break point in this matchup (same with Toon Link) and its a fairly decent weakness for lucario vs pikachu (Not to say that lucario is abnormally slow). This is as opposed to say Luigi, who outranges us and can nearly match us in speed, making it much more difficult to the point of it being nearly impractical to try and powershield his stuff.

lol everyone says that about Lucario, the truth is that it doesn't hinder him as much when he has good relatively safe moves with large hitboxes and transcendent priority on his side, I'd frankly make that trade esp. with aura at high percents.

Then again, if he didn't get transcendent priority, he'd be such a bad character, everyone could cancel every attack of his at low percent with a faster but weaker attack lol.

I'd have to say that when it comes to stages, I avoid Halberd and PS1.

Yeah, Im not trying to play down lucarios strengths. It was just an important factor in this matchup that hadnt been brought up yet.

By the way since you mentioned transcendent priority, which of lucarios moves on the ground or in the air able to stop jolt (AS aside)?

I think jab is his most reliable.

The way Lucario hitboxes work is that the aura bursts (the flames) don't clash with anything, but if you hit the hurtboxes (which are also hitboxes) they do interact with a given attack. I think jab is honestly our easiest attack to stop t-jolt just because the hitbox is pretty straight forward in terms of direction and to time it (unlike utilt, which could be awkward), and it's one of the few moves we can fan projectiles with on the ground semi-reliably.

That being said, most don't fan merely because it isn't worth the effort in some scenarios.

Urban Menace said:

Is fthrow off stage> QA through to take the jumps too risky of an edge guard against lucario?

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yes it is.