Pokédex Entry: Metaknight!

Alright, first up is Metaknight. We all know this is a pretty bad match-up, but let's try to keep this productive. What do we have to do to stand a chance.

Reserved for...me :-)

Yay Kith ^^

Add me on AIM or something... let's talk about how to do this.

MK is a 20:80 with planking...

Thanks for doing this, Kith.

I'll post my thoughts on the MU soon.

You guys can start the discussion now. I'm going to throw in my two cents later tonight, and try to set up how exactly this thread is going to be set up :-)

My matchup ratio opinions:
Squirtle: 30-70
Ivysuar: 15-85
Charizard: 35-65

Start with Charizard/Squirtle

Squirtle:
Matchup explained in one sentence: Squirtle has trouble getting past mk's translucent hitboxes because of his poor range.

MKs moveset:

Mach tornado (nuetral b): All aerials except upair can beat mach tornado at the top of the tornado, but you wont always have the time to get above him. fortunately squirtles shield is good so you it can survive alot of Mach tornado hits. On the bad side of things squirtles dash grab is extremely bad so its harder to punish a metaknight that travles far away. If you react fast enough you can start chasing him after he starts to run away, just be careful if the metaknight decides to head back towards you. If it looks like you aren't going to get the grab just do a dash attack, its better than nothing. Although you shouldn't do a dash attack at very low percentages because its punishable on hit.

Grounded Shuttle Loop (up B): Probably the most common way MK will be getting his KO's on you, at around 100 - 120% depending on the stages you should start to play more carefully because there really isnt much you can do to prevent a MK from KOing you with tihs move. Use empty hops with airdodges and side steps and rolls to approach. If you do shield or dodge a shuttle loop jump towards him and do either a fair, bair or dair. Dair is useful because the first hit will clank with the glide attack and continue to hit if you are too far away for a fair or bair.

Airborne shuttle loop (up B): A general tip, when falling back to the stage hold up when going against metaknight, shuttle loop comes out to fast to react to, or at least for me it does, in the air the most common moves you will be hit with is the up B, dair, uair, and nair. The MK will usually throw one of these out at you when you are up there, try to predict which one and do the appropiate counter. For up b, the safest option is just air dodge through it. If you airdodge through it its very difficult to punish the upB afterwards if they dont do something stupid like cancel it right after a miss, just ignore it and reset the situation, if you are able to punish it somehow itll most likely be through a upangled ftilt or a fair / bair. If you chose not to air dodge dair can sometimes beat a shuttle loop if you are in the right position (I think its directly above him) but itll lose to uair and just reset the situation.

Drill Rush (side B): This move isnt normally used as an offensive measure, but it can sometimes be used if they plan to cancel it on a edge, really you should just shield it if it happens. This is more likely be used to recover, not as often as metaknights other options to recover but it does happen sometimes. If you see it happen jump off and hit him with a dair, it cleanly beats drill rush and can help you gimp (Yes gimp a metaknight) him

Dimensional Cape (Down B): This move will really only come out for recovering, and theres not much you can do about it if you are even a small distance away from him while recovering. if you are close enough to the ledge you can attempt to edgehog him but it will rarely ever happen. Really just always keep this move back in your mind in case it is ever used to KO you and just react fast enough and you should be fine.

Fair: This is a stupid move, properly spaces theres nothing you can do about it, but however if he does get go a little bit farther then hes suppoes to you can punish it with a short hopped fair. Its also smash DI able but it is extremely difficult to do on reaction. Theres not much to say about it, its probably the main reason this matchup is so bad. If you have an asnwer to this move by all means tell me.

Nair: This move is done mostly out of shield, if you are careful in your spacing you should see this move come out to much, however it does alot of damage and can create combos at low percentages. It is also used as an edgeguarding tool, if the metaknight has just recently grabbed the ledge, he can use some of that invincibility added to his nair. You should try to let the metaknight use his invincibility frames before attempting to recover if you are that low.

Uair: The only move in squirtles moveset that can beat this move is withdraw, Uair usually comes out when you are trying to get back on the stage, so when you find yourself in this situation, you should try to get as far away from metaknight as possible, because the only other way out of it is to air dodge through it, which is free dair for the metaknight which will probably knock you off stage again.

Dair: This is another move that there just isnt much squirtle can do against, if he gets really close and misapces his dair you can land an aerial on him but thats about it. Dair can beat waterfall if spaced correctly so it can be trouble to recover against metaknight. If a metaknight starts to approach with retreating dairs just shield it, roll away and reset the situation.

Uptilt: This a rare but still good move, it can be used to KO and has a huge hitbox. Nothing but withdraw beats it so just airdodge through it and punish. They ill more likely upB oos instead of uptilt to stop your aerial approaches.

Ftilt: This move is SDIable but it is extremely difficult to do. If you shield it you can then punish it with either a jab combo or a ftilt, dont attempt grabs because itll miss, especially the dash grab. Watch your opponent because alot o them wont go for the third hit, if it seems like hes not going to you have to punish it early.

Dtilt: Angle your shield downwards and after a dtilt if he is close enough do either a jab or ftilt, if they continue to just spam it you should easily be able to punish it.

Fsmash: They'll most likely attempt this move as you are landing. Learn about upB penalty and know when it is not safe to land with it. Up B penalty is a weakness squirtle has, if he grabbed the ledge with his upB the next time he lands he will have landing lag, which is quite atrocious. Start remembering about up penalty and just do an empty hop next time you are safe to do so to get rid of it. You can also have landing lag if you fast fall from a high distance. You can use b reversal water gun to land safely or just regular old water gun to push him away from where you are landing. You should only attempt to punish this move if you powershield it, as it is a safe move any other way.

Upsmash: Because of squirtles lightweight this move becomes a threat, its fast and can be hypen smashed. DI it and it can really help your survivibility. You can also SDI this move but once again its extremely difficult to do on reaction.

Dsmash: Unless you powershield this attack or are extremely close to it when you are shielding, do not attempt to punish this move, if you are extremely close to him, go for a jab combo, otherwise jump away, if he attempts another dsmash out of habit then you can punish it with a bair, if he doesnt jump away and reset the situation.

you can punish dairs with uairs if you are very quick or predict it

but yeah you are going to be using jab a LOT in this matchup

i disagree with 3/7 MK at this point, i think it's 35/65 because you can punish MK's fairs with your own fair OoS or if you are close enough. same with dair and your uair/fair (depending on position). it's way easier for MK to wall you on the ground than in the air, simply because of the stupid ftilt. if they realize this, then it becomes a matter of punishing with jabs and trying to force MK to misspace his stuff with your mobility. squirtle has a good roll so you can mix that in a bit but be careful because you can get punished with a dsmash or something if they start reading that. punish shielded/missed shuttle loops with uairs/dairs if you can. pay very close attention to the distance between you and MK if they are gliding. this will determine whether or not you can punish it or not. MK's dash attack is very quick and lame and can catch you as you are landing from afar so watch for that.

you can fsmash/withdraw/waterfall tornado. none of them is a reliable answer because fsmash is too slow (thus easily baited and punished), withdraw is dependent on how much room you have behind you (you don't want to miss MK and ricochet offstage) and waterfall is SDI'd on reaction, although it's more difficult if you get them in the meaty part right next to squirtle. if there's a platform above you, waterfall out of shield is usually your best bet (aside from shielding it and not even getting to punish the ******** auto canceling version). it's harder for MK to bait waterfall successfully since you will be moving toward him with a pretty large hitbox.

for reference:



might be larger than the entire tornado itself.

shuttle loop is lame, don't do anything really unsafe on shield when you are at 135+ or you will likely die. if you punish it a few times with a dair or uair (into uair!) MK will be less likely to throw it out randomly. and remember that your grab range is really nice so if they don't space it well on your shield, you can probably grab it.

also if you are above MK as you are recovering, withdraw is a pretty good option. don't use it without saving your second jump because a shuttle loop will probably mean death anyway.

i can see it being 3/7 "hard counter" in the future but for now, it's just a tough matchup for squirtle.

**** ivysaur

charizard cannot operate on small stages in this matchup at all imo.

Squirtle's maneuverability comes in real handy in this MU. Be as unpredictable as possible. Mix up empty short hops, shellshifts, walking, and pivots to keep MK guessing. Let's face it, this is a character a scrub can pick up and use little to no mindgames and still be a very difficult character for us in general. It's been mentioned already since it's such a good tactic here: Jab, jab, jab. I also like to throw out a lot of ftilts so my opponent doesn't get the timing down for perfect shielding Squirtle's jabs. Nair's pretty solid here and there, as you can go straight from that into more jabs or an ftilt. If their shield is low, I sometimes like to dtilt them to pop them up for an upair--I find that a lot of people don't ever expect this. Short hop dairs are also a pretty solid way of killing MK. I'm finding that (at least in TX and LA) a lot of top level players don't realize that Squirtle's last hits of dair have KO potential.

All in all, play smart. Rack up damage really quick and then get outta there. Mix it up and keep the MK on its toes.

Ivysaur's garbage in this MU unless the MK is really, really, realllllly bad. Don't try it.

I go back and forth on Charizard in this MU. He can't keep up with MK in the air like Squirtle can, but Charizard's still fully capable of holding his own. I usually try to stay grounded as much as possible since Charizard's jump is atrociously slow, especially compared to MK. I tend to do a lot of grabs and Rock Smash in this MU. More than other MUs, I'd say. If MK tries to Mach Tornado you, Rock Smash him. If he's stupid enough to try again right after he fails, hit him again. And again if he continues. For some reason, MK seems to be rather easy to Rock Smash. Short burst Flamethrowers here and there can be handy to whittle MK's shield down from time to time so Rock Smash will pierce his shield; just don't use it often, as MK can punish it easily.

And of course, you should just about never go offstage against MK with any of the Pokemon. Going off a few times during a match, though, can lead to some unexpected KOs on MK. Just keep it unpredictable.

And like Steeler said, with planking, this MU becomes much, much, much harder. Fortunately for MK mains, this MU is still hard enough without planking.

Squirtle 35:65
Ivysaur 15:85
Charizard 30:70

We should also discuss stages to ban, strike, and take MK to. Off the top of my head, I'd strike Battlefield. MK's very good at controlling the stage. Normally I like Battlefield for Squirtle, as the platforms offer more ways of getting around for mixups, but MK can really annoy Charizard here.

Just for reference: (source)

Dash speed:
6. Meta Knight (1.85)
7. Charizard (1.80)
17. Ivysaur (1.50)
28. Squirtle (1.37)

Air Speed:
7. Squirtle (1.08)
14. Charizard (0.99)
36. Ivysaur (0.75)
36. Meta Knight (0.75)

So his dash speed is slightly better than Charizard's (which is pretty **** fast), and his air speed is tied with Ivysaur's.



<hr>

Matchup:

Squirtle needs to play patiently - a defensive Metaknight will wreck an aggressive Squirtle. The posts above explain how to do that better than I ever could =P I'm generally pretty comfortable with venturing offstage as Squirtle if it's rewarding given the circumstances. A d-air offstage at decent percents can get you a kill, and as Magik said, it'll beat Drill Rush cleanly.

IDK about Charizard... feels like he gets ***** by Tornado the same way DK gets ***** by Tornado, except he can sometimes hit him out of it. Take advantage of his slow air speed and your fast dash speed to land grabs. A lot of his moves tend to activate the Rock Smash counter, which can help you keep up with him. Playing patiently is a good idea here too. Tack on small damage and stay safe - remember you have a fresh Squirtle coming in to get the KO. I agree with Steeler about small stages being bad, and platforms make this matchup really difficult as well. I'll be much more likely to use Charizard if the stage is FD or Pictochat than if it were Lylat Cruise.

All in all I like these ratios: Squirtle 35:65, Ivysaur 15:85, Charizard 30:70. Overall 30:70.

Why have I never seen people use Waterfall to go through Tornado? I'm gonna try it out next time I play. On that note, maybe we should discuss/compile a list of ways to deal with Tornado with all three pokemon?




<hr>

Stages:

From the stage CP discussion:

Stage Strike: Smashville, Lylat Cruise
Counterpick: Final Destination, Pictochat, Green Greens, Pirate Ship
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon

This was before Baton Passing was discovered. I would say Smashville and Final Destination are the best choices out of the 5 starters (PS1 is all right too if it's a starter in your region). I don't see why you would strike anything other than Yoshi's and Lylat in any case. I still agree with FD and Pictochat as good CP's. I know some of you don't like Green Greens, but I still stand by that as well =P




<hr>

Starter/Switch Order:

From the Choose Your Starter thread:

Starter(s): Squirtle Charizard

Summary:
Squirtle- It's commonly known that Metaknight is a difficult and tricky match up for just about all players. For this you will need Squirtle and his skills in speed, agility and aerial games. Jabs and tilts are you best friend and they are a good and quick way to rack up some damage. The main thing you want to remember is the avoid using Ivysaur, it is strongly recommended you avoid using Ivy. When Squirtle has done his fair share and taken enough punishment, switch to Ivysaur and do what you can with her until she get's KO'd; who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and be the first one to take a stock. After that proceed to blast him away with your Charizard game.

Charizard- To reiterate, the key focus the starting out well against Metaknight is to reasonably avoid having Ivysaur out. Charizard has proven that he can take on Metaknight and do quite well. Alot of his attacks can disrupt the rhythm of just about any Metaknight game. He can also take alot of punishment and give just as much back to reciprocate. Just be mindful that Metaknight can juggle Charizard like he was nothing so be careful when you attack or you will be punished. Aside from that, you have the advantage of throwing out a fresh squirtle to take on the second stock and do whatever you find best from then on. If you manage to, get to Charizard from Squirtle on that same stock and repeat the process. That would be a little tricky but only do it if the situation is right which will vary on the skill level of both players.

I think the Squirtle > Charizard > Squirtle is the best order for this matchup. If you're on a stage with lots of opportunities to Baton Pass, I might try for Squirtle to Charizard on all three stocks. Otherwise, one possibility is Charizard first stock, Squirtle second stock, skip Ivysaur, Charizard third stock -> Squirtle when fatigued, but I'd only try it on a stage where I felt comfortable with Charizard.

Can Ivysuar pivot grab out of metaknight's nado? (all characters can but you have to be frame perfect, Im talking about practically)

Never take an MK to Green Greens. He can scrooge easily under the stage to the point that we can't do anything about it. He can get off 2 upairs after grabbing the ledge, and he'll still be invincible, meaning he can easily go through blocks, where we can't. All PT has is Flamethrower can explode blocks from a distance. That's it.

This MU is much worse if MK planks, and a good MK will plank you HARD on Green Greens.

if the MK is going to plank, it doesn't matter where the hell you go because he can plank on any stage...except brinstar kinda, which absolutely destroys charizard anyway. you can hope that halberd's hazards will help you out, i guess, and some of delfino is unplankable...but the main platform is plank/shark city.

I've never seen Squirtle's Waterfall beat tornado. I have been practicing (as Zard) fast falling into tornados and Up-B'ing out of them. It's pretty nice, but pretty situational.

Not much to say besides what has already been stated. Squirtle needs to play patiently here, playing a really good spacing game. I know a lot of Pokemon Trainers don't implement much of Squirtle's sliding stuff, but it really helps a lot here. For some reason, Hydrojab - reverse crawls will bait a lot of dash attacks. As with everything though, being predictable is bad, and I don't recommend just throwing it out. D-smash will still punish you easily. Also, always have a watergun charged. It can mess up MK's spacing some times, allowing you to punish. You want to keep it charge too...juuust in case MK starts hanging around...



Watergun towards the ledge. MK's will usually reverse shuttle loop in that situation. That's a nice free stock. It doesn't happeen often, but we gotta take what we get right?

Don't use Ivysaur. Switch him out, even if it means taking a hit.
P.S. don't switch out Ivysaur to Charizard on a platform. I usually do this against other characters to avoid getting hit with something charged, but this could mean an up-air chain to tornado death for you.

Charizard's Rocksmash always surprises me in this match-up. For some reason, it counters a lot of MK's moves, which is a great feeling. Stay grounded, and stay patient. Throw out flamethrows, but don't throw out so many rock smashes that you become predictable. Stick to basics and you can stand a chance....

It's not a nice match-up :-\

i disagree with having a water gun charged, id rather use b for b reversals to help land.


also yes solecaliber, its pretty easy to grab MK out of tornado, even without pivot grab.

Magik0722 said:

i disagree with having a water gun charged, id rather use b for b reversals to help land.


also yes solecaliber, its pretty easy to grab MK out of tornado, even without pivot grab.

Click to expand...

How often do any of us use B-reversals to land? I've never seen any of us do it in our vids, and Squirtle (at least to me) doesn't seem to have a hard time landing safely without it...

Steeler said:

if the MK is going to plank, it doesn't matter where the hell you go because he can plank on any stage...

Click to expand...

That's true, but his planking is much better on Green Greens than other stages. He can exploit the stage's gimmicks far better than we can.

squirtle gets upb penalty alot in this matchup and also gets landing lag alot because of his size.

Ive been using alot recently with great success, after all after upB oos landing a fsmash/dsmash during our landing lag is the second most common way to KO squirtle

water gunning a glide attack is often a free punish for you

water gunning tornado seems to force MK upward if he tries to continue approaching you with it

but i do agree with what magik is saying here, it's often how MKs get kills on me too. i guess it's personal preference, the higher your percent, the more likely you should be using it to b-reverse. the higher MK's percent, the more likely you should be saving a WG in case it gives you a free grab.

Magik0722 said:

squirtle gets upb penalty alot in this matchup and also gets landing lag alot because of his size.

Ive been using alot recently with great success, after all after upB oos landing a fsmash/dsmash during our landing lag is the second most common way to KO squirtle

Click to expand...

I'll have to give it a try then. I've been thinking about it, but I've never really given it a shot.

Rocksmash is a blessing, it gives you breathing room, and via trading hits with the MK, makes the Zard X MK match actually winnable. (Though still at a disadvantage)

I wouldn't advise using Waterfall to counter nado lol.

MK can SDI it and punish you with Dsmash afterwards X_X.

Hey--

Ivysaur jab beats a (low) Mach Tornado.

Just saying.

That aside, I'll give a real analysis once I'm done with this persuasive speech stuff.

I know Reflex is waiting to finish his school work, but everyone else who wants contribute to this discussion please do so quickly. I'm going to be writing a summary of everything discussed soon so we can get that information out there and move on to a new character.

P.S. This thread will still exist, so if anyone wants to contribute something else to the MK matchup, they can.

I'm going to be taking a bunch of tests for the next 3 days, so ill do my ivy and charizard writeups after that.

That's fine. Soon pretty much means by the end of this week. Finals >.<

Rocksmash is NOT a blessing for zard against MK.
NOT AT ALL.

MK plays the air game against Zard because he cant handle it at all and also removes zards best thing he has as a character: grabbing.
Dairs on Zards shield is not something zard can handle. A shielded hit or two and tornado WILL poke.
But really, its pretty depressing match up for Zard against MK. He can upsmash oos to punish bad spacing of dairs...

Ivy can kinda do okay if shes past every-throw-i-do-on-you-means-you-are-going-to-get-combod-to-death percent. But she is... just too slow to handle an assault after MK player gets a power shield. She obviously has no GTFO options here :\

Squirtle on the other hand has only some reliable things (mostly his aerials / combos / grab range)... his dashing shenanigans are beaten out by MKs humongous dash grab range, and anything like moving into a sliding shield will only work so many times (MK will just be like LOL grab the ledge, LOL start forward rolling when you get -really- close, LOL dair).
Squirts jab having an easier-than-normal SDI period makes an MK whos aware its going to happen just is able to SDI behind you to ... anything. Or even Di away into dtilt/ftilt. MKs dair is able to easily hit through Squirts Up B in -most- angles of recovery as well

Metaknight is the best character in the game at forcing pokemon trainer to play pretty much the entire match fatigued, regardless of the ledge grab limit.

Shaya can time me out without exceeding 10 ledge grabs. You know why it's so effective against pokemon trainer?

Once they've played super defensively to the point of fatigue, we aren't going to be killing for a very long time...far longer that it would take against pretty much any other character. Once mk gets over about 80% he can actually use our hits against us by taking as long as possible to return to the stage after every hit that isn't a ftilt, jab or similarly weak hit.

Shaya loves taking hits at high percents so he can start gliding from the top of the screen, all the way under the stage, up to the next top corner...where he can slowly make his way back and proceed to recover in ways that are still extremely hard to beat.

Im not even doing it justice; it's so much worse than it sounds.

The only saving grace is that we can use the time to switch...which unfortunately in this matchup often means that we're giving MK stock advantage. If they are playing to time out, this is a very bad thing indeed.

Oh yeah and there's a big problem if we're saying that we're going to be using lots of jab when MK can SDI the jab for a free nair, shuttle loop, grab etc. It is very easy to SDI squirtle's jab. If AUSTRALIANS do it then I don't want to hear any nonsense about it being unlikely.

I'd say Rock Smash is PT's BEST move against MK overall. Call me crazy, but as everyone else has said, a lot of MK's moves, and I mean a LOT, trigger the counter and punish MK like crazy. Short hopping away and B-reversing your Rock Smash will take care of MK staying in the air, and once you get him back on the ground you can flamethrower and grab the crap out of him. Just don't get juggled, lol. I find Hydroplaning grabs, jabs, and D-smash can be really effective against MK (moreso the jabs and grabs) as long as you don't spam and become predictable , so that's an option that hasn't really been mentioned.

Please tell me its a troll account please tell me its a troll account please tell me tell me please me tell troll please

Shaya said:

Please tell me its a troll account please tell me its a troll account please tell me tell me please me tell troll please

Click to expand...

Why don't you just tell us what parts of what he said you disagree with, and why? :-)

That should be obvious, but I'll make a brief prediction...

Buuda said:

I'd say Rock Smash is PT's BEST move against MK overall. Call me crazy, but as everyone else has said, a lot of MK's moves, and I mean a LOT, trigger the counter and punish MK like crazy. Short hopping away and B-reversing your Rock Smash will take care of MK staying in the air, and once you get him back on the ground you can flamethrower and grab the crap out of him. Just don't get juggled, lol. I find Hydroplaning grabs, jabs, and D-smash can be really effective against MK (moreso the jabs and grabs) as long as you don't spam and become predictable , so that's an option that hasn't really been mentioned.

Click to expand...

Edit: and yes Kith I know you're just doing it to keep the discussion productive and alive <3 <3

Id also like just dont get juggled, lol bolded.

But yeah, considering my post before that literally said yeah getting grabs with zard isnt easy, rocksmash is stupid, and he thinks grabs for Squirtle isnt the best thing (as in forcing MK into the air where squirtle at least has okay aerials) in the match up.

As toby would put it, dont be COY with me

OH NO HE DIDN'T

everyone who got that joke put your hand up

Shaya said:

Id also like just dont get juggled, lol bolded.

But yeah, considering my post before that literally said yeah getting grabs with zard isnt easy, rocksmash is stupid, and he thinks grabs for Squirtle isnt the best thing (as in forcing MK into the air where squirtle at least has okay aerials) in the match up.

As toby would put it, dont be COY with me

Click to expand...

Lol as Toby said as well, I'm just trying to keep the conversation going. I know many of us already know why Rocksmash isn't charizards best move against MK, but that may not be apparent to people new to PT. MK's who know the match up will not just randomly throw out the attacks that trigger the Rocksmash counter (as much as I wish they did lol).

I'm just trying to make this accessible to new people trying to pick up PT as well as veterans, so if you post something (even if it's obvious), an explanation would be appreciated.

P.S. This message if sent with love.

Toby. said:

OH NO HE DIDN'T

everyone who got that joke put your hand up

Click to expand...

*raises hand*

PT doesn't have a best move against MK

toby is the coyest

of all

I'm not remotely new to PT. There are no MK mains where I'm from, only scrubs that secondary him, so I suppose I'm not totally well-versed in the matchup. And yes, I was exaggerating when I said Rock Smash is his BEST move against MK, but it is a great resource to have. Getting grabs isn't totally easy as Charizard vs MK, no. But it is a viable option. And no, Squirtle's grab ISN'T the best thing in the matchup since it can be punished pretty easily. And I was talking about grab hydroplaning specifically, so if you're going to criticize what I say, please do it right. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but just throwin' it out there, bigotry is not constructive and does not contribute to the discussion. I personally am growing really tired of all these "veterans" thinking they know everything and that I know nothing just because I don't post on here very often. The reason for that is because this site is swarming with self-righteous trolls and ignorance, and seriously guys, I'm not trying to start anything, but it's getting old. That's why I stayed off this site for awhile, and sure enough, first thing when I come back, I'm already getting criticized un-constructively and with a degree of rudeness that is completely uncalled for. So, how about let's all respect everyone's opinions and experience? This site isn't life, and the number of posts you have doesn't mean you're any better or any worse that anyone else.

Tl;dr- How about we try to get along? (:

tl;dr shaya is a HUGE ****FACE!!!

anyway squirtle's grab is good and yeah, it can be punished on whiff but jab can be punished on hit so...

Buuda, I'm going to try and highlight the problems I've found with your post (and maybe try to find out why they elicit the reactions that they tend to :-P)

Buuda said:

I'd say Rock Smash is PT's BEST move against MK overall. Call me crazy, but as everyone else has said, a lot of MK's moves, and I mean a LOT, trigger the counter and punish MK like crazy.

Click to expand...

Now, I know you said that you weren't being completely serious when you posted this, but sarcasm doesn't translate very well to text. For most people reading this, they'd assume you're being completely serious. Although Rocksmash is an option against MK (It's an option against anyone), it's definitely not PT's best option. I do agree that MK does trigger the Rocksmash counter a lot, maybe even more so than other characters. However, this is easily solved by the MK playing campy.

Buuda said:

Short hopping away and B-reversing your Rock Smash will take care of MK staying in the air, and once you get him back on the ground you can flamethrower and grab the crap out of him. Just don't get juggled, lol.

Click to expand...

I think the problem here is your word choice. Although short hopping away and B-reversing your rocksmash can be an effective mind-game, it does not "Take Care of MK staying in the air". MK's aerials are too fast for you to depend on your Rocksmash to take care of him. Flamethrower is definitely a great option (it even beats a MK's drill, if he's trying to get back to the ledge safely). It's also good that you pointed out the juggling problem. One of Charizard's biggest weak points is directly under him. Besides fast-fall N-air, he really doesn't have many options to take care of an opponent under him. MK can easily take advantage of this, especially with nado >.<

Buuda said:

I find Hydroplaning grabs, jabs, and D-smash can be really effective against MK (moreso the jabs and grabs) as long as you don't spam and become predictable , so that's an option that hasn't really been mentioned.

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I'm not too sure what you're basing this off of, so maybe you'd like to clarify. Hydroplaning seems to be less effective against MK than any other character, due to his ability to react with any one of his short-hopped, lightning quick aerials, or even d-smash. Doing hydro-shenanigans every now and then might, and probably will work, but I wouldn't say it's "really" effective.

I tried to go over your post as thoroughly as I could. Feel free to post about any thing you agree/disagree with. However, people can, and probably will, disagree with some of your points as well. It's those kind of conversations that will lead to all of us getting better.