How to deal with insert move name here ? (Lazers) ~Updated 07/11/10~

ZeroL · Apr 12, 2010

I kinda took this from the Zero Suit Samus boards, but that's not important.
Please keep the format stated below, after 6 days I will review all the posts and make a summary out of it.

Moves that beat *insert move name here*:
General tactics versus *insert move name here*:

Tornado:
Moves that beat Tornado:
- Fully Charged Shot: Doensn't really need an explination, just hit him with it and MK will be hit out of the Tornado.

- Super Missile: Hitting the Tornado with a well timed Super Missile will cancel the Tornado, this meaning that you need to hit the Super Missile in the middle of the Tornado from the side.

- Dair: Just hit the Tornado from above with Dair and MK will be hit out of the Tornado.

- Uair: Hitting the Uair from down the Tornado will cancel the Tornado and hit MK but this takes some precise timing. The first 3 hits of Uair will Clank with the Tornado and the 4th - 6th hit will break it, keep in mind that Uair has 6 hits.

- Down-B: If you time the bomb to explode in the middle of the Tornado, MK will take damage resulting in ending the Tornado.

General tactics versus Tornado:
- At the first hit, SDI out of the Tornado and spam airdodge to escape it.

- Run into it with a shield and wait for the landing to punish him with either fast, low cooldown moves that deal fairly enough knockback to regain control of the match.

Grenades:

NO-IDea said:
Samus can outcamp Snake.

Adjust your distance, then camp with double super missile or homing missile->super missile, depending on what action Snake is in. Somewhat hard to explain, but the homing missile will interact with the grenade hitbox, stopping its *momentum*, then the super missile goes under and forces Snake to respond with perfect shielding, spot dodging, or worse he actually shields it and his shield diminishes.

*Grenades can take two missile hits before exploding. When interacting with the first missile, it will stop in place.*

If Snake is just starting to pull out the grenade, then double missile works better. The faster the missile gets there, the shorter distance the grenade will get to you, to the point it may end up next to Snake. Even better scenario, the missile reaches Snake before he gets to throw the grenade, meaning Snake shields: Super Missile 1, Super Missile 2, Grenade. Good shield pressure, therefore expect his to start implementing spot dodges... meaning free throw?

I would advise to not be within z-air distance in this MU, or to fight against grenade camping. Actually, this may require some more explanation as well...

Rather, if you plan to harass with z-air, do not start within z-air distance. You want to be falling INTO that z-air spacing, then unleashing the hitbox, rather than jump in place, or worse, retreating into the z-air spacing and use it. This is because dash attack/DACUS OoS will punish you everytime you mess up this tactic.

Let me reiterate: you can use z-air in this MU. ONLY use it by falling into the spacing, from outside in. Don't use it while retreating, don't use jumping in the same space. Also, do not get into the habit of air dodge-> z-air; DACUS's hitboxes will outlast the air dodge. Rather, save your options: a falling u-air, a n-air, d-air, double jump or bomb are all possible options to use if you read a DACUS approach from Snake after grenades.

If you do this tactic correctly, it means z-air is connecting as low as possible to the ground, and you can buffer a shield upon landing to prevent punishment.

If you can't adjust your spacing habits correctly, don't use z-air. The only way to win the Snake MU is to not exchange damage.

As another aside, don't try holding your shield with Snake when there's a grenade sitting between both of you. A better option would be to jump and space a d-air from behind Snake after the grenade explodes. If you don't think you have enough time for that, retreat and fire off a super missile cancel, aim for the upper part of the shield to shield poke. If you don't have enough time for that, roll behind him. He can't punish you without getting hit by the grenade, meaning at least you're behind him with *frame advantage.*

*The 20~ vulnerable frames on roll is still shorter than Snake suffering from shield lag on the grenade, then the 7 frame shield drop (he can't grab without dropping shield since you're behind him), then the action he chooses to take.*

Finally, if you're in close range and Snake is already holding a grenade (as an item), you have several options, none of them necessarily better than the other:
1) Jab cancel his shield. This only works if he's already holding the grenade with a couple seconds remaining. Otherwise, he'll grab you.
2) Charge and let loose a d-smash. This works depending on the time remaining on the grenade (1-1.5 sec).
3) Retreat. If there's very little time on the grenade, jump back, double jump if necessary, and time an air ddoge (don't z-air. ROFL. You know how many times I see a Samus z-air a thrown grenade?)

There are other grenade tricks I could explain, but I've already spent quite a bit of time on this post. This will do.

The above should really be enough for anyone to deal with Grenades!

Banana's

KillerJawz said:
KillerJawz said:

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE, DO NOT FORGET ABOUT THIS: Diddy's banana is counted as an ITEM NOT A PROJECTILE. Therefore, it has a standard item's priority meaning it BEATS CHARGE SHOT, MISSLES AND BOMBS. DO NOT CS A DIDDY WHILE HE'S HOLDING A BANANA.

When you have a banana go above Diddy and drop it down, he will attempt to move out of the way or catch it, in which case, you can proceed to follow up perhaps a dair or fast falled uair.

Also glide tossing backwards (Samus has a decent backwards toss) with the banana is perfect for spacing and puts us at a PERFECT range to zair. If you throw a banana at Diddy whilst he is recovering, he will be knocked out of his UpB, and be forced to use UpB again, whilst falling even faster and having a flying barrel rocketing around the place, this is a perfect set up to gimp. When you throw a banana at Diddy, try to make sure that even if it's shielded, you can still punish him for it, for example, glide toss to grab, it's a lot like missile to grab only this time, Diddy is forced to make a decision, and even if he dodges the banana and the grab, his banana has more then likely gone off stage, he will then have to bring out another, this is where we can punish with zairs.

A banana will cause damage when it hits you, even if your airborne as well. Diddy likes to use bananas to combo into other moves such as dash attack and down smash, look out for these as you will eat around 20-30% on average.

Click to expand...

Th3 Composer said:

On top of that, I actually feel like holding on to a banana for awhile is a good tactic too, since you can still missile and zair with the banana in hand.
Plus trip>Charge Shot is so pretty.

Click to expand...

-Crews- · Apr 12, 2010

ZAAD said:
Let's start with the most famous move, Tornado! *discuss*

Don't use samus. <--- Period

NO-IDea · Apr 12, 2010

I think Hive did this kind of thread a long long time ago.

How to deal with tornado? Run away/shield dash in. Keep a charge shot ready. End of story.

If something else of yours is landing, it's because the MK is doing it wrong. Seriously: U-tilt/d-tilt/f-tilt/super missile/bomb will work if they're spacing their tornado horribly.

Learn how to SDI out and spam air dodge once you do. Works if MK has caught you in the air if timed right (in the middle of the nado; if near the beginning, Samus's air dodge frames wouldn't outlast nado.) Does not work if you're caught near the ground because nado's hitboxes will catch you during your vulnerable frames as you touch the ground from air dodge.

LanceStern · Apr 13, 2010

NO-IDea tells the truth. Every move besides plasma shot is too slow to beat tornado if they are spacing it right. It's just they are so unlearned about the matchup sometimes they try to approach with tornado (lol).

I've noticed sometimes on the popup from the initial tornado frames if you sdi up and mash cstick up the uair will break the tornado.

Zair can also break it bu the spacing is WEIRD.

Basically run away or shield it, then punish him landing with a plasma or zair or grab.

KillerJawz · Apr 17, 2010

My uair has beaten MK's nado everytime tbh. However, I noticed that when I used uair the first three hits would clank but the fourth hit would beat it out,why is this?

ZeroL · Apr 17, 2010

KillerJawz said:
My uair has beaten MK's nado everytime tbh. However, I noticed that when I used uair the first three hits would clank but the fourth hit would beat it out,why is this?

This is because Uair has iirc 6 hits, and from the 4th hit it gains priority. That is why a good timed Uair will beat Tornado from under it.

KillerJawz · Apr 18, 2010

ZAAD said:
This is because Uair has iirc 6 hits, and from the 4th hit it gains priority. That is why a good timed Uair will beat Tornado from under it.

Thanks for that, I knew there was something strange about that move...

ZeroL · Apr 18, 2010

KillerJawz said:
Thanks for that, I knew there was something strange about that move...

No problem

, always glad to help out a fellow Samus main.

BTW, I've edited the OP with the info for Tornado. If any of you see something wrong, feel free to appoint me to it.

#HBC | ZoZo · Apr 18, 2010

Zaad going berserk on them Samus boards

KillerJawz · Apr 18, 2010

Xonar said:
Zaad going berserk on them Samus boards

Xonar increasing his post count on them Samus boards

To deal with grenades, zair Snake as soon as he pulls one, it will explode on him. If he manages to get the grenade out, if he throws it immediatly, grab it and throw it straight back, if not simply shield it, since grenades do like to roll around abit.

NO-IDea · Apr 18, 2010

Samus can outcamp Snake.

Adjust your distance, then camp with double super missile or homing missile->super missile, depending on what action Snake is in. Somewhat hard to explain, but the homing missile will interact with the grenade hitbox, stopping its *momentum*, then the super missile goes under and forces Snake to respond with perfect shielding, spot dodging, or worse he actually shields it and his shield diminishes.

*Grenades can take two missile hits before exploding. When interacting with the first missile, it will stop in place.*

If Snake is just starting to pull out the grenade, then double missile works better. The faster the missile gets there, the shorter distance the grenade will get to you, to the point it may end up next to Snake. Even better scenario, the missile reaches Snake before he gets to throw the grenade, meaning Snake shields: Super Missile 1, Super Missile 2, Grenade. Good shield pressure, therefore expect his to start implementing spot dodges... meaning free throw?

I would advise to not be within z-air distance in this MU, or to fight against grenade camping. Actually, this may require some more explanation as well...

Rather, if you plan to harass with z-air, do not start within z-air distance. You want to be falling INTO that z-air spacing, then unleashing the hitbox, rather than jump in place, or worse, retreating into the z-air spacing and use it. This is because dash attack/DACUS OoS will punish you everytime you mess up this tactic.

Let me reiterate: you can use z-air in this MU. ONLY use it by falling into the spacing, from outside in. Don't use it while retreating, don't use jumping in the same space. Also, do not get into the habit of air dodge-> z-air; DACUS's hitboxes will outlast the air dodge. Rather, save your options: a falling u-air, a n-air, d-air, double jump or bomb are all possible options to use if you read a DACUS approach from Snake after grenades.

If you do this tactic correctly, it means z-air is connecting as low as possible to the ground, and you can buffer a shield upon landing to prevent punishment.

If you can't adjust your spacing habits correctly, don't use z-air. The only way to win the Snake MU is to not exchange damage.

As another aside, don't try holding your shield with Snake when there's a grenade sitting between both of you. A better option would be to jump and space a d-air from behind Snake after the grenade explodes. If you don't think you have enough time for that, retreat and fire off a super missile cancel, aim for the upper part of the shield to shield poke. If you don't have enough time for that, roll behind him. He can't punish you without getting hit by the grenade, meaning at least you're behind him with *frame advantage.*

*The 20~ vulnerable frames on roll is still shorter than Snake suffering from shield lag on the grenade, then the 7 frame shield drop (he can't grab without dropping shield since you're behind him), then the action he chooses to take.*

Finally, if you're in close range and Snake is already holding a grenade (as an item), you have several options, none of them necessarily better than the other:
1) Jab cancel his shield. This only works if he's already holding the grenade with a couple seconds remaining. Otherwise, he'll grab you.
2) Charge and let loose a d-smash. This works depending on the time remaining on the grenade (1-1.5 sec).
3) Retreat. If there's very little time on the grenade, jump back, double jump if necessary, and time an air ddoge (don't z-air. ROFL. You know how many times I see a Samus z-air a thrown grenade?)

There are other grenade tricks I could explain, but I've already spent quite a bit of time on this post. This will do.

Xyro77 · Apr 18, 2010

The best way to deal with nado is powershield the first hit, tilt shield up, ground dodge last 2 hits......this leave u open to dash grab or CS.

NO-IDea · Apr 18, 2010

If you ground dodge and MK continues to nado, you still get hit. There's a vulnerability frame from shielding to spot dodge. Doesn't matter if it's 1 frame (which I think it is actually), that's all it takes since nado is a lingering hitbox.

ZeroL · Apr 19, 2010

Wow! Thank you NO-IDea, that info you posted might just be enough =O. If you have any more tricks you are willing to share, please do.

#HBC | ZoZo · Apr 19, 2010

NO-IDea said:
If you ground dodge and MK continues to nado, you still get hit. There's a vulnerability frame from shielding to spot dodge. Doesn't matter if it's 1 frame (which I think it is actually), that's all it takes since nado is a lingering hitbox.

1 frame. Tornado hits for 1 frame every 3 frames. Thus there's a 1/3 chance or just avoidance if you have some timing ^_^

Grizzer · Apr 19, 2010

Xonar said:
1 frame. Tornado hits for 1 frame every 3 frames. Thus there's a 1/3 chance or just avoidance if you have some timing ^_^

that's something my brother would *just* do because he *can* do it, like he doesnt try to shield grab diddies dash attack AFTER the attack, but rather after the first or second hit -.- very annoying

on topic: MK is doing something wrong if he nadoes in a position where you are able to punish it

Sago · Apr 22, 2010

Xyro77 said:
The best way to deal with nado is powershield the first hit, tilt shield up, ground dodge last 2 hits......this leave u open to dash grab or CS.

i never thought of this for some reason. Im going to start to mess around with it.

I usualy SDI out and then bomb away, sometimes it will hit sometimes it wont. I just find it the easiest way to escape without wasting your DJ and getting caught in another one. I have been experimenting with bombs alot latley <3

Xyro77 · Apr 22, 2010

NO-IDea said:
If you ground dodge and MK continues to nado, you still get hit. There's a vulnerability frame from shielding to spot dodge. Doesn't matter if it's 1 frame (which I think it is actually), that's all it takes since nado is a lingering hitbox.

who would try and ground dodge the whole thing? thats just ********.

What i posted works. M2k personally taught me this at whobo 2( i played with him for over 4 hours the day before he left). It works with 100% accuracy.

NO-IDea · Apr 25, 2010

Do you even realize why M2K taught you that?

It's because the MK metagame has developed to counter that already. It's called stopping the tornado early. If he anticipates your spot dodge, he stops early and stands there waiting to grab you while you're ending your spot dodge animation.

In other words: you learned rock to beat their scissors, but they have paper waiting for you if you make rock habit. Spot dodge tactic is good, and it does work, but take Xyro's advice with a grain of salt.

Xyro77 · Apr 25, 2010

NO-IDea said:
Do you even realize why M2K taught you that?

It's because the MK metagame has developed to counter that already. It's called stopping the tornado early. If he anticipates your spot dodge, he stops early and stands there waiting to grab you while you're ending your spot dodge animation.

In other words: you learned rock to beat their scissors, but they have paper waiting for you if you make rock habit. Spot dodge tactic is good, and it does work, but take Xyro's advice with a grain of salt.

99.9999999999999999999999% of what i say works, you just got to be willing to do it. No salt needed.

-Crews- · Apr 26, 2010

Xyro77 said:
99.9999999999999999999999% of what i say works, you just got to be willing to do it. No salt needed.

Well unless you can read minds then like no idea said, there is nothing stopping them from stopping early. Only a dumb mk is going to repeatedly tornado for the same duration of time if he is getting his anus handed to him every single time he tries to pull one off. That said, I do however think its still a good tactic to keep in mind. Especially during the first few tornado's.

Xyro77 · Apr 27, 2010

CREWS said:
Well unless you can read minds then like no idea said, there is nothing stopping them from stopping early. Only a dumb mk is going to repeatedly tornado for the same duration of time if he is getting his anus handed to him every single time he tries to pull one off. That said, I do however think its still a good tactic to keep in mind. Especially during the first few tornado's.

i didnt respond to what no-idea said cause he literally has no idea of what hes talking about. if he stops early thats even BETTER for you.

NO-IDea · Apr 27, 2010

Xyro77 said:
i didnt respond to what no-idea said cause he literally has no idea of what hes talking about. if he stops early thats even BETTER for you.

Texas, the land where everyone spot dodges.

Xyro77 · Apr 27, 2010

NO-IDea said:
Texas, the land where everyone spot dodges.

if it works, why not use it?

NO-IDea · Apr 27, 2010

Because in a land where no player actively punishes spot dodges, of course you should use it.

KillerJawz · Apr 27, 2010

Guys take the region flaming and silly remarks to PM. Stop this and just help out with the current discussion.

KillerJawz · Jun 24, 2010

Are you ever going to update this Zero, or may I have permission to have this thread to myself?

Zatchiel · Jun 24, 2010

Looks good so far
Liked the MK Nado explanation, can't wait to see the rest!

ZeroL · Jun 24, 2010

You have permission to update yourself if you find it needed, KJ. I will update this as soon as there is any info on banana's.

KillerJawz · Jun 24, 2010

Very well, I'll provide updates and stuffs.

DtJ Composer · Jun 24, 2010

Samus with a banana = <3

KillerJawz · Jun 24, 2010

Th3 Composer said:
Samus with a banana = <3

I didn't know you liked it like that Comp :3

When you have a banana go above Diddy and drop it down, he will attempt to move out of the way or catch it, in which case, you can proceed to follow up perhaps a dair or fast falled uair.

Also glide tossing backwards (Samus has a decent backwards toss) with the banana is perfect for spacing and puts us at a PERFECT range to zair.

DtJ Composer · Jun 24, 2010

Maybe Xyro's not the only samus main who's into Lady Gaga :3

On top of that, I actually feel like holding on to a banana for awhile is a good tactic too, since you can still missile and zair with the banana in hand.
Plus trip>Charge Shot is so pretty.

Zatchiel · Jul 10, 2010

Title says updated, i came to look, where's the update? :V

KillerJawz · Jul 10, 2010

Zero never got around to updating it. We had a discussion about it and I will update it when he doesn't, however, I am currently working on things for the Fox boards, so I'll have to do this later.

Also, the date is in European terms ie: DD/MM/YY not MM/DD/YY

Crystanium · Jul 11, 2010

Falco's Blaster, if that's what we're talking about, is annoying for Samus. She's tall, and she really doesn't have a good approach. Man, I remember the time ~~when we fell in love~~ I fought toilethumor and he spammed his Blaster with Falco. I was helpless. I don't know how to avoid them. I can only think of just hanging on the edge. But you don't get anywhere that way.

KillerJawz · Jul 11, 2010

You have missed the point of this thread Dryn, it's how to deal with Lazers, not why Lazers are bad.

Throwback · Jul 12, 2010

I personally try to get to just outside zair range. Then when falco goes to SHDL, I stay grounded for the 1st, and SHAD the 2nd into zair. Once I get inside zair range then I rising zair SHDL. Good players mix up timing and completely wreck me though

LanceStern · Jul 15, 2010

I like to shoot uncharged plasma shots to throw them off. Yes you get hit, but they get hit as well and they stop lazering.

Also I powershield and ftilt. That's really useful and probably the most effective and least painful besides airdodge -> zair

Zatchiel · Jul 15, 2010

If you're up close to a Falco, their SHL > Dash-Attack works as a **** combo.
You could try buffering the Ftilt, but i think their DA will go through, if not, they can grab instead.

How to deal with *insert move name here* ? (Lazers) ~Updated 07/11/10~

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