Wario's Week 34 Matchup Discussion: YOSHI!

Padô · Apr 14, 2010

GET HYPE!

YOSHI

What about that you garlic smelling Warios?
Does the GR pwns you? Is it BIG problem? Or it can be easily avoided?

DISCUSS!

Lord Chair · Apr 14, 2010

Don't approach unless you have stage control. Pivot grab completely ****s your approach. Get grabbed and eat a 17% upsmash. Don't rely on dair too much overall. I don't completely get this matchup, but I'm really leaning towards even since we don't really have anything specific on Yoshi.

You shouldn't really be grounded since there's no way you can beat Yoshi's ground game, only get grounded when Yoshi is up in the air and you feel like catching his landing, watch out for Egg Lay though, don't just stand around and shield (that never really works in this matchup).

Be very patient and try to get momentum, once you get Yoshi flying you have quite the few ways of keeping the situation into your advantage. Get into this situation with fthrow, dair, nair, the usual stuff.

As I said, you really should fake approaches 70% of the time. You want to limit Yoshi's stage control a lot in order to prevent pivot grab walling. If you can bait Yoshi into going in the air then you did a fine job, but you shouldn't necessarily wait for that to happen.

Oh and when Yoshi is on the ledge, do not get intimidated by his Egg Toss ledge 'plank', just keep powershielding the eggs (really not all that hard) and you'll be fine.

I think that's all for now, matchup 50-50 IMO.

Humpy Thrashabout · Apr 14, 2010

I know you aren't supposed to give numbers if you get wrecked by a character, but I think it's in Yoshi's favor. I've played Nacho and Green Ace enough to see that Wario just doesn't have a ton of tools to deal with Yoshi.

-Pivot grab is just stupid. Never approach unless you still have your second jump or you'll get caught in it. Sort of like with D3.
-Rising Bair (draconic reverse?) is very disjointed and very fast and I don't think Wario can do anything but avoid and try and punish.
-Once you're in kill percent you aren't going to deal anymore damage. Approaching on the ground is out of the question and if you approach from above or from an angle you'll eat an Upsmash (his head is invincible).
-Those retreating-pivoted-jump-cancel-egg-throw things make it really hard to fake an approach.
-His Nair is pretty fast and can stop a lot of close up stuff you might be trying.

Things Wario can take advantage of:
-I'm pretty sure Yoshi can't jump out of shield. In fact I'm pretty sure all of his OoS options suck.
-his recovery make him vulnerable to a lot of things. Don't try gimping him unless you're sure you can do it, instead try charging Fsmashes on the edge, catching him with a bite or hitting him with fully charged waft during his second jump. He'll try to recover high but you can still hit him with stuff to rack up damage.
-baiting down-B. If Yoshi is above you he doesn't have a lot of options. His Dair gets clapped pretty easily, and he falls kind of slowly. He might try down-B just to get back on stage to a better position. Bait it and punish.

Lord Chair · Apr 14, 2010

Oh yeah, reminds me: Yoshi indeed cannot jump OoS, his shielddrop takes 17 frames and his grab is frame 17 as well. Yoshi will practically never shield, especially not against Wario. Don't expect shields, his spotdodge is rather good (1-20, 22) so they'll usually resort to that when they are put into the defensive.

His airdodge is meh. His neutral air is an awesome combo breaker (frame 3, slight killing potential) and his jab (also frame 3) is borderline broken.

Padô · Apr 20, 2010

Im requesting more people votes. Specially from people that play Bwett and etc.

Seriously we gotta hype this up because this is probably one of our STRANGE matchups like the DDD one.

Bumping

Humpy Thrashabout · Apr 20, 2010

60:40 Yoshi. At least.

Green Ace was probably the only person to ever just make me feel completely helpless. It was like playing against D3, but he could chase me.

Lord Chair · Apr 20, 2010

You say it's Yoshi's favor just because you lost to one?

Variable · Apr 20, 2010

I can't say too much or vote, as I haven't played many yoshi's or GOOD ones in that case. I wouldn't go as far as 60:40 Yoshi though IMO. That seems a little... Too far, but I wouldn't say it is by far in our favor either.

Although I'm not too experienced I'll put in a little input on the discussion.

From my opinion, you want to get yoshi into the air, but don't want to necessarily get into the air yourself to do it. Yoshi is better grounded than airbourne. His Nair and Fair aren't too great, and if you're careful about his Dair then that shouldn't be a problem either. If you can manage to keep Yoshi in the air, or off the stage then you'll be in control of the match. If I were in an intense Yoshi match, I would be using a lot of Up throws, and Usmashes, to do this. Also Yoshi falls slowly so if we do get caught off guard we can get back into rythm quickly. Like I said earlier just watch out for the occasional Dairs and Egg throws. And if he trys to Dair to mount on the stage quickly we can punish it. Thats pretty much all I have from my yoshi perspective, If I had to vote I'd say it's about even, or a 55:45 going to either character.

Deleted member · Apr 20, 2010

The matchup is even, probably against a top wario itd be more like 60:40 warios favor.
At lower levels, especially if you dont know how to deal with yoshis gimmicks, it can be difficult for wario.

Wario cannot be impatient period. Once you find room to punsih you can often keep yoshi off balance for 50+% (its probably his main flaw). Bite is very good if you read him overspotdodging.

Dont get grabbed at high percents, dont do your normal approaching stuff cuz yoshi can pivot grab.

I've never lost to a wario btw, but like yoshi becomes really limited if the wario is very good and knows the matchup.

Yoshis dair is awful variable, his up air will beat dair and usmashes are good at beating airdodges. Bair is not all that effective against wario but can be nice if you try to shield camp, which wont work against yoshi.

Z'zgashi · Apr 20, 2010

As a yoshi who plays at least one wario per tourney id say 50:50 or 55:45 Yoshi. Probably the second but considering its one of my most experienced matchups, i might be underestimating wario. Definitly not his advantage though.

Wario is all about his air speed/game and we are fastest in air and (if it matters) faster on ground, we can avoid and counter if done correctly. We also have that notorious grab release and in one area yoshi is really bad, recovery, wario really doesnt have use beat by that much. All wario can do well is apply sheild pressure, we have options to overcome everything else. If its a smart yoshi id probably lean more towards 55:45

Also burntsocks just learn to stay just out of range and punish the second he touches the ground. Believe me it works wonders, just hit and run. A lot

Delta-cod · Apr 20, 2010

I've played Malcolm twice in tournaments, one back in winter and less than a month ago.

This is definitely in Wario's favor at high levels. The infinite chain grab is of no use considering how situational it is since Wario can and should ban FD against us always. Wario's too quick in the air to catch, and this allows him to apply very good pressure that prevents us from camping with eggs at the right ranges. It's even difficult to hit Wario with an egg even if you do manage to get one in safely.

We're faster in the air, but our acceleration isn't immediate like Wario's, so we can't really dance with you up there. We have moves to beat your aerials, mainly our Uair, Pivot Grab and Usmash, but it's very possible to simply weave away from them and punish. You can also easily rack up damage once you land a hit on us. Chains usually last until we finally get to the ledge to recover for a bit and halt your momentum.

Both characters can take a long time to kill, although Wario has the waft, which I find hard to deal with. (Socks, help me with this please. D: ) Don't get grabbed at higher percents, we have a free Usmash, Uair, and Fsmash on release, all of our major kill moves.

If you're smart about getting around Yoshi's tricks, the MU just comes down to staying patient.

Z'zgashi · Apr 20, 2010

Delta-cod said:
I've played Malcolm twice in tournaments, one back in winter and less than a month ago.

This is definitely in Wario's favor at high levels. The infinite chain grab is of no use considering how situational it is since Wario can and should ban FD against us always. Wario's too quick in the air to catch, and this allows him to apply very good pressure that prevents us from camping with eggs at the right ranges. It's even difficult to hit Wario with an egg even if you do manage to get one in safely.

We're faster in the air, but our acceleration isn't immediate like Wario's, so we can't really dance with you up there. We have moves to beat your aerials, mainly our Uair, Pivot Grab and Usmash, but it's very possible to simply weave away from them and punish. You can also easily rack up damage once you land a hit on us. Chains usually last until we finally get to the ledge to recover for a bit and halt your momentum.

Both characters can take a long time to kill, although Wario has the waft, which I find hard to deal with. (Socks, help me with this please. D: ) Don't get grabbed at higher percents, we have a free Usmash, Uair, and Fsmash on release, all of our major kill moves.

If you're smart about getting around Yoshi's tricks, the MU just comes down to staying patient.

That can work both ways, i swear, i am the most patient yoshi of all time. I will stand still for a full 2 mins if i have to. To avoid waft i never, let me repeat NEVER go close to wario unless i see an opening. it keeps you safe but you always end up timing out the match with 2 stocks left lol. then again i have never played malcom so he could play way different for all i know

Delta-cod · Apr 20, 2010

Z'zgashi said:
That can work both ways, i swear, i am the most patient yoshi of all time. I will stand still for a full 2 mins if i have to. To avoid waft i never, let me repeat NEVER go close to wario unless i see an opening. it keeps you safe but you always end up timing out the match with 2 stocks left lol. then again i have never played malcom so he could play way different for all i know

I had a crew battle match against a Pit and it lasted for OVER EIGHT MINUTES. We camped each other until extreme percentages each spot. I bet you I'm more patient than you.

With a timer on the clock and when you're down, you can't just wait forever.

Z'zgashi · Apr 20, 2010

Lol IF ur down

and ill take you on a 'who's more patient' challenge (if i ever meet you in person lol) ill probably lose the match tho, cuz yur a better yoshi... but aw well

PhantomX · Apr 20, 2010

Yoshi doesn't win this by any means, lol.

It's probably 55:45 - 60:40 Wario.

If the Yoshi can't grab Wario he's got pretty much nothing. If you shield against Wario, you're boned, since you have no OoS options. Wario can edgeguard the **** out of Yoshi too, and your dair > nair is easy to SDI. I mean, the only annoying thing you guys really have from my experience is your upsmash with that stupid invincibility. Also, being patient isn't going to safe you from a waft by any means, it barely saves MK, and he's a broken character.

Also whoever said Yoshi's nair is bad is stupid.

bigman40 · Apr 21, 2010

It's even.

Humpy Thrashabout · Apr 21, 2010

Lord Chair said:
You say it's Yoshi's favor just because you lost to one?

**** you. Pado asked for numbers.
I played someone who is considered at least 1 of the top 5 Yoshis in the country (I would say best, but that's regional bias). I asked him for advice more than a few times and it just seems so difficult. I've played a lot of really good players and been wrecked more times than I can remember, but playing this kid didn't feel so much like I was playing ****ty or getting really outplayed, just that I couldn't do much of anything.
The only times I had any control was when I got Yoshi off the ground.

I definitely would go someone else in this matchup.

PhantomX said:
Yoshi doesn't win this by any means, lol.

It's probably 55:45 - 60:40 Wario.

If the Yoshi can't grab Wario he's got pretty much nothing. If you shield against Wario, you're boned, since you have no OoS options. Wario can edgeguard the **** out of Yoshi too, and your dair > nair is easy to SDI. I mean, the only annoying thing you guys really have from my experience is your upsmash with that stupid invincibility. Also, being patient isn't going to safe you from a waft by any means, it barely saves MK, and he's a broken character.

Also whoever said Yoshi's nair is bad is stupid.

The only stages I can see Yoshi not being able to grab are BF, Lylat, and Brinstar. Brinstar I can see Yoshi being at a disadvantage, but Yoshi has way too many tricks on BF (when in kill percent one of his throws just barely lands you on the top platform and makes it so he just reads your roll and Upairs you). Lylat is dumb and I never play there so I don't know how that match might work. He'll ban Brinstar.
And a good Yoshi wont ever really shield. It's like how a good Wario wont recover low against MK. You might get forced into if you're not careful, but it's completely possible to avoid doing.
Definitely try and gimp, but I see it really as Yoshi's only big weakness in this matchup. There are definitely some other things to exploit, but nothing as helpful as getting a gimp.

Humpy Thrashabout · Apr 21, 2010

Also I just remembered some advice I got. Yoshi's egg lay gives you invincibility for some frames when you pop out.

Don't air dodge! They love when that happens.

PhantomX · Apr 21, 2010

If you know the spacing on his pivot grab you can punish him every time he does so in a mildly obvious manner with dair. I don't really see how they could not shield if you're pressuring right. If they don't, it just makes it even easier b/c he'll only have two options, spotdodge or attack (his roll is easy to punish).

Just watch out for stages that have slants, b/c Yoshi can do weird things there.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Apr 21, 2010

**** you. Pado asked for numbers.
I played someone who is considered at least 1 of the top 5 Yoshis in the country (I would say best, but that's regional bias). I asked him for advice more than a few times and it just seems so difficult. I've played a lot of really good players and been wrecked more times than I can remember, but playing this kid didn't feel so much like I was playing ****ty or getting really outplayed, just that I couldn't do much of anything.
The only times I had any control was when I got Yoshi off the ground.

I definitely would go someone else in this matchup.

You where being out played. Next time you play this yoshi record the video watch the video and look at the mistakes you're making. Also I don't want you to get offended or anything I've read all your post in this thread. This match up seems to be your projecting your inability to be able to win this match up and trying to ascertain that as fact. Also if you want to go some one else for Yoshi you might as well go someone else for d3 not bother learning the match up and drop wario all together.

Humpy Thrashabout · Apr 21, 2010

Yeah, I was definitely being outplayed, but what I'm trying to convey is that I've never been outplayed in such a way as to make it feel like I can't do anything. Hence, why I believe the matchup to be in Yoshi's favor.

Out of every great player I've played (Anther, Fatal, Shadow, Atomsk... etc) I've never been of the opinion that I could make very few mistakes and still lose. I lost to those people because I made bad decision during the match.

@ AL I said I would go someone else for this match if I had a legitimate secondary, but I don't. And unfortunately Green Ace quit a while ago so I can't get a recorded match.

@ PX I found more success on slanted stages. I can't recall any weird things, but I found that it cut down pivot grabbing options because of the direction Yoshi's tongue goes.

You don't have to believe me, but don't think I'm that quick to try and excuse my losses by saying it's Yoshi's matchup.

CelestialMarauder~ · Apr 21, 2010

Variable said:
His Nair and Fair aren't too great, and if you're careful about his Dair then that shouldn't be a problem either.

Are we still talking about yoshi?

Delta-cod · Apr 21, 2010

Phantom, I'd just like to point out that if you get into the habit of punishing the spacing on Yoshi's standard pivot grab, that running further and then grabbing will beat it. It's something I like to do when I've been punished for the standard pivot grab, so it causes beating the grab to come down to more of a guessing game. Of course, this is only possible if we still have stage to run further on.

Variable · Apr 21, 2010

CelestialMarauder~ said:
Are we still talking about yoshi?

Uh.... No?

Deleted member · Apr 21, 2010

PhantomX said:
Yoshi doesn't win this by any means, lol.

It's probably 55:45 - 60:40 Wario.

If the Yoshi can't grab Wario he's got pretty much nothing. If you shield against Wario, you're boned, since you have no OoS options. Wario can edgeguard the **** out of Yoshi too, and your dair > nair is easy to SDI. I mean, the only annoying thing you guys really have from my experience is your upsmash with that stupid invincibility. Also, being patient isn't going to safe you from a waft by any means, it barely saves MK, and he's a broken character.

Also whoever said Yoshi's nair is bad is stupid.

I agree with this a lot.

Z'zgashi stop claiming you are some super experienced yoshi or something you go to scrub tournies xD

Humpy, like i said, its not a matchup you can just play once and all of a sudden be able to win. Obviously if you are letting yoshi grab you you are doing something wrong (i think one grab a game is reasonable).

Its even at best for yoshi but he definately doesnt win.

PhantomX · Apr 22, 2010

Delta-cod said:
Phantom, I'd just like to point out that if you get into the habit of punishing the spacing on Yoshi's standard pivot grab, that running further and then grabbing will beat it. It's something I like to do when I've been punished for the standard pivot grab, so it causes beating the grab to come down to more of a guessing game. Of course, this is only possible if we still have stage to run further on.

Really? Your argument for having a grab beaten out is "do the grab farther away?" Lol. I guess you don't play people who can wait and then punish things on reaction? I can easily just Jump towards you, wait for something, and if nothing happens, dj away and repeat the process. If you're trying to grab, I am in no danger, and then you run out of stage while trying to mindgame me, and THEN you get *****.

Padô · Apr 22, 2010

PhantomX said:
Really? Your argument for having a grab beaten out is "do the grab farther away?" Lol. I guess you don't play people who can wait and then punish things on reaction? I can easily just Jump towards you, wait for something, and if nothing happens, dj away and repeat the process. If you're trying to grab, I am in no danger, and then you run out of stage while trying to mindgame me, and THEN you get *****.

Specially against Yoshi... Jumping towards you and then DJ away/for an FF aerial on reaction is REALLY easy, seriously there is a stupid lag right after Yoshi Pivot that ISN'T hard at ALL to punish. Wario is still able to punish Olimar's Pivot Grab by doing the same thing, and he's got more OoS options, further range and less lag on it. Wario only need one thing to "don't get grabbed" on this matchup... Don't get predictable and bait a lot wrong eggs and pivots for a good dair punish + grab.

Well, good Yoshi's won't really spam Pivots, honestly their game would rely on throwing eggs, waiting for a frustrated approach attempt from Wario and punish (Praying for not getting powershielded). As said before, FD is a must ban, and we should do fine in most other stages. I'd say 55:45 or 60:40, his aerials won't be a great problem for Wario, specially on the ground you can shield and OoS almost anything (except Nair > Jab which is fast but there is nothing a powershield can't do) if you shield his Bir, Bair him OoS and then repeat the "get through eggs, bait a laggy move" process before any move you hit him.
Fair here works fine too, and Nair on close combat is better then any of his options.

Stuff to watchout:

USmash if fresh will kil you, it's got heavy armor and will kill you if you get predictable on Dair approaches.
Uair, remember this, it's Yoshi's main kill move, its not fast, got a little priority, but its got a good knockback, enough too kill you at 140% if you are in the Air.
Nair, It's fast, the hitbox is long enough to punish stuff, links with jab and, if it's not stale is killing you at 160%(?) 150%.
UpB, annoying eggs, watchout for them out of stage, they make you drop off from the bike

Pivot Grab, you are Wario, you should get 0 grabs on EVERY match.
FSmash, it's laggy, easily powershielded, got range and very predictable. You never know... Sometimes people get hit by Snakes FSmash.
Spotdodge, seriously, PUNISH this with nair or bite, its a bit hard to punish this with FSmash or any other moves... it really fast

overall: 55:45/60:40 Wario.

bigman40 · Apr 22, 2010

How about you guys try discussing a Yoshi that can DR and bait just as much. This isn't top level Warios vs average level Yoshis. We don't need info on a 2009 Yoshi.

SnackAttack · Apr 22, 2010

As usual, I'm no help with these things.

PhantomX · Apr 22, 2010

bigman40 said:
How about you guys try discussing a Yoshi that can DR and bait just as much. This isn't top level Warios vs average level Yoshis. We don't need info on a 2009 Yoshi.

I've played them, lol. The most dangerous thing you can still do to us is grab, and DR doesn't help you with that (unless you want to go for dash grabs, which I hope you don't). W/o your strongest asset, you are still just a marginal threat, it's as simple as that.

I played Bwett back when he was at his peak plenty, and I also played Fingerpass in Hawaii (who DRed a lot at first b/c it would freak me out, but then I adapted and he used it progressively less).

Yoshi's eggs are a minor nuisance, if you airdodge through his egg while he's ending his throwing animation you get a free punish. It's annoying when he does them from the ledge though.

bigman40 · Apr 22, 2010

Don't really care about you playing Bwett. That's not my concern (and I won't explain why he's not something I care to hear). You talk about baiting so much from Wario that you expect Yoshi can't do it with DR like Wario. You mistake us for approaching with our simple moveset, and DR will get give us another grab. Once you learn, DR does get less effective, but it's still just as much there to help land a grab (much easier to land in combination with DR).

I see no true asset that changes this from being even and apparently, we're always "boned" when we shield no matter what the circumstance. Yoshi's are getting better in using the shield and will get hurt from using it less. You Dair us, we can SDI up and Uair/Nair you out of it or we can let the first piece of Dair hit the shield and we spotdodge the rest of it giving us time to punish you for underestimating Yoshi's shield by that much. A Yoshi shouldn't be using Eggs that much either way since it's too hard to hit Wario in the first place.

In a neutral position, both players can't really move each other since we'll be looking for one/two move(s) to punish. It makes it a tad more annoying since Fair can poke through our Bair if done right, but if we're throwing it out stupidly, then that would be easy to do.

If you can show me a real reason as to why Wario can effectively make Yoshi scramble, then I might be inclined to believe, but otherwise, it's a stale match where both players will spend a good amount of time looking for minor moments to punish.

50:50 and at worse for us 55:45 Wario

PhantomX · Apr 22, 2010

Our moves do like 17% a hit, yours don't. On top of that, our character is heavier and kills sooner (excluding GR to upair). Even if we're both trading pokes as you are arguing, Wario is winning.

bigman40 · Apr 22, 2010

The moves that are 17% a hit are fairly SDI-able with the exception of Uair. Moves that you link together would do that much damage consistently, but that goes the same with Yoshi.

Orion* · Apr 22, 2010

Delta-cod said:
I bet you I'm more patient than you.

patience mm?

also. iirc green ace thought the matchup was like 6:4 wario or something at high level. i think im agreeing with him, yoshi is pretty bad

brningpyre · Apr 23, 2010

What are good stages to take against Yoshi? I assume Brinstar, but I was thinking Rainbow Cruise would work well too, since it would force them to be in the air a lot.

Alternately, what are stages we should ban? Just FD?

Dynomite · Apr 23, 2010

PhantomX said:
Our moves do like 17% a hit, yours don't. On top of that, our character is heavier and kills sooner (excluding GR to upair). Even if we're both trading pokes as you are arguing, Wario is winning.

Yoshi has more combo ability than wario so i dont think we will be trading that many hits.

bigman40 said:
The moves that are 17% a hit are fairly SDI-able with the exception of Uair. Moves that you link together would do that much damage consistently, but that goes the same with Yoshi.

I agree with the matchup being 50:50 or 45:55.

brningpyre said:
What are good stages to take against Yoshi? I assume Brinstar, but I was thinking Rainbow Cruise would work well too, since it would force them to be in the air a lot.

Alternately, what are stages we should ban? Just FD?

Ban: FD halaberd.
Counter: rainbow, bf, smashville,

Padô · Apr 23, 2010

I usually take Yoshi to SV, YI and Rainbow

On BF and Lylat Yoshi can be REALLY gay by camping under a platform with eggs and UpSmash.

Yeah, FD is a MUST BAN. Be aware of CastleSiege too.

Lord Chair · Apr 23, 2010

You complain about platform camping yet you choose to CP him to a stage with a huge platform covering move of the stage, as well as being a decent stage for Yoshi in general.

What?

Padô · Apr 23, 2010

The platform helps you so much in terms of approach. And, you are almost safe from everything above it against Yoshi. All because it MOVES.

He can't camp on this platform as he does on BF and Lylat. He can hit you under it with the USmash, those platforms are so close to the ground and everytime you try to approach him from the air there is Platform there stoping you from hitting him consistently, and down there he pivot while he's got his hole body covered by this platform in other words safe from aerial approaches.

PhantomX · Apr 23, 2010

Yoshi's Island is not a good place to take Yoshi. That platform is HUGE, so he can be pretty safe, and he gets the added bonus of down b cancel shenanigans/mixups.

@dyno, learn to SDI, PLEASE. He really has no combos b/c all his good approach/setup moves are multihit. Just like Wario he'll have some stuff at low percentages (though nothing as easy to land as our upair > upair) but that's it.

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