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Matchup Re-Discussion: Toon Link

KayLo!

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Pikachu vs. Toon Link
( Link to central matchup thread. )


Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 48:52 in Toon Link's favor
Can we CG him?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=180435
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Toon Link's favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=248081

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Toon Link Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263801

Summary:

None yet, discussion in progress.
 

Miamisportsfan45

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Very good thread, I'll post in the other two thread links, too. But I personally think Pikachu has a large edge over Toon Link. But that's just my opinion.

Just realized that they were posted a while ago. So I won't bother with them, but after reading the discussion, I've been persuaded to Toon Link, but I still see why they're so even.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Very good thread, I'll post in the other two thread links, too. But I personally think Pikachu has a large edge over Toon Link. But that's just my opinion.
Me = Pikachu main
My lil' bro = NC's best Toon Link main

Conclusion: Even (Pikachu has greater edge when TL is recovering; TL almost greater at everything else)

While Toon Link outshines pika on move-vs-move basis, Toon Link has a butt-awful recovery once you get the hang of his projectiles. Toon Link's up-b does NOT have any invincibility frames whatsoever, so hitting him during it is free game. Oftentimes, once I bait the bomb or boomerang when toon link is recovering, out comes an u-air or n-air and then he burns the second jump. Once this happens start QA'ing to the ledge repetitively and using Pika's invincibility to continously n-air him. Watch out for f-air after Toon Link throws a bomb--it comes out faster than you think.

If Toon Link is onstage, then that is where Toon Link shines more.

Pikachu needs to avoid projectile barrage (double jump over most things and dash/powershield double arrow stuffs) and setup grab and throw combos often. Otherwise, the only other avenue is either OUTSPEEDING Toon Link's aerials or PUNISHING his aerials (except for b-air and z-air, most have considerable lag).

Toon Link's aerials out beat most of pikas. U-air juggles will be stalled by d-air (which always overpowers and always comes out first after 24-ish percent. Before then it'll be double jump and airdodge or DI away airdodge z-air). Then again, if he d-airs you could always just spotdodge or move out of the way and punish. It's almost always a 50-50 when going for throw followups.

B-air spacing STARTS to fall apart for Toon Link whenever he runs out of groundspace to DI away from pikachu. In that case, his b-airs will cross or will hit close to your shield and you can do OOS stuff and mindgames with more safety and effectiveness. If you get frustrated with short hop retreating b-airs, dash attack his landing (frame opening should be there) to take Toon Link off his feet. ^_^

That's my 2 cents so far. For video reference you can find a bazillion Pika vs. Toon Link videos on our youtube channel (youtube.com/shadowcase). Our 2 most 'entertaining' money matches are these 2 for those who like entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5e3lGtgYE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcLU9-r9S5c .
 

Miamisportsfan45

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Me = Pikachu main
My lil' bro = NC's best Toon Link main

Conclusion: Even (Pikachu has greater edge when TL is recovering; TL almost greater at everything else)

While Toon Link outshines pika on move-vs-move basis, Toon Link has a butt-awful recovery once you get the hang of his projectiles. Toon Link's up-b does NOT have any invincibility frames whatsoever, so hitting him during it is free game. Oftentimes, once I bait the bomb or boomerang when toon link is recovering, out comes an u-air or n-air and then he burns the second jump. Once this happens start QA'ing to the ledge repetitively and using Pika's invincibility to continously n-air him. Watch out for f-air after Toon Link throws a bomb--it comes out faster than you think.

If Toon Link is onstage, then that is where Toon Link shines more.

Pikachu needs to avoid projectile barrage (double jump over most things and dash/powershield double arrow stuffs) and setup grab and throw combos often. Otherwise, the only other avenue is either OUTSPEEDING Toon Link's aerials or PUNISHING his aerials (except for b-air and z-air, most have considerable lag).

Toon Link's aerials out beat most of pikas. U-air juggles will be stalled by d-air (which always overpowers and always comes out first after 24-ish percent. Before then it'll be double jump and airdodge or DI away airdodge z-air). Then again, if he d-airs you could always just spotdodge or move out of the way and punish. It's almost always a 50-50 when going for throw followups.

B-air spacing STARTS to fall apart for Toon Link whenever he runs out of groundspace to DI away from pikachu. In that case, his b-airs will cross or will hit close to your shield and you can do OOS stuff and mindgames with more safety and effectiveness. If you get frustrated with short hop retreating b-airs, dash attack his landing (frame opening should be there) to take Toon Link off his feet. ^_^

That's my 2 cents so far. For video reference you can find a bazillion Pika vs. Toon Link videos on our youtube channel (youtube.com/shadowcase). Our 2 most 'entertaining' money matches are these 2 for those who like entertainment: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5e3lGtgYE and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcLU9-r9S5c .
I really like this post, very detailed and informational. I appreciate the input. Helps give me a better overview on the matchup. I'd give it an about even or a slightly Toon Link favor after reading this.
 

KayLo!

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TL is a spammy mother****er. LDPK covered most of the basics, but it's important to emphasize that you NEED to stay mid-range vs. TL, or he'll outcamp you. Running away doesn't work (unless you need to plank to replenish your shield or something)..... you have to keep the pressure on him. Giving him space just gives him more freedom to camp, and you'll have to work through it all over again. He's a momentum based character like Diddy. When TL is on, he's on, but it's hard for him to regain his camp if you're in his face or have forced him to the ledge/into a corner..... he doesn't have many options to actively get past you without leaving himself open at some point.

Bomb pulls are easily punishable with uair; bair and zair autocancel, so good luck with that if he's retreating, although you can punish a poorly spaced zair OOS (at least in my experience.... apparently frame data tells a different story). Overall, I'd suggest staying on the ground and countering his air game rather than straight up trying to go in the air vs. him.

TL's ledge and recovery options are predictable. Take advantage of that.

If he tries to get you into a bair > bair > bair combo, DI away. You'll probably still get hit with at least two, but it's better than getting 60% from bairs alone.

His zair sets you up for a lot on hit (grab, fair, usmash.... probably more), so try not to get hit with it. It's pretty easy to see coming since most toons will do jump > airdodge away > zair..... so as soon as you see the airdodge, expect a zair.

Killing-wise, I think we have the slightest upper hand. All TL really has are usmash and uair, although a fresh fair will kill, and he has a spike with dair (although it'll kill him if he misses). Utilt kills too at higher percentages. Usmash is what they tend to go for the most -- that or a setup into uair with a bomb. Both are easily avoidable, but between all his projectiles + zair, you have to be careful where you DI.

Don't try to punish his usmash. You'll probably run straight into another move..... it has surprisingly little cooldown.

If TL is above you, expect a bomb pull; if you go to chase him, expect that he'll z drop the bomb to cover himself. Sometimes he'll dair after that (which will hit if you got hit by the bomb).... other times he'll bair/nair as he lands to keep you from punishing his landing.

Recently I learned that our bair beats his arrows and boomerang..... it literally eats them. Dunno how useful it is in practice, but it could be.... need to play around with that more. (Our other aerials might work too.)

I usually try to kill TL vertically with usmash or utilt > thunder. Nair and fsmash don't seem as effective..... he can stop his momentum really well horizontally.

Stage-wise, I'd say just go where you're most comfortable. Low ceilings benefit us, but they also benefit TL since both characters will be going for the vertical killer. This is one of the few MUs where I kinda like Lylat..... Frigate works pretty well too. Many people will say don't go to FD, but I don't think it's that bad..... probably not your best option, though.

Ratio is 50:50 imo or slightly in TL's favor.
 

M15t3R E

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Excellent summary, Kaylo.
I was just playing Jash this weekend in a smashfest. For those who don't know, he's unequivocably the best TL in the country and probably the world.
He ate me alive. The best I did was bring him to his 2nd stock and a high % a few times. Then again I had very little prior TL practice.

First things first. Do NOT attempt to outcamp him. You will fail. Not probably fail... you will 100% certainly fail if you try to. With that in mind, your best bet is to stay at mid-range, as has been said. Rush in when you see openings such as him plucking a bomb, or after he's just thrown it. If he tries to space you with his boomerang or arrows, dair will plow through that like a bulldozer. Try to see if your TL opponent has a pattern with their projectiles and zair. Many follow a pattern, even if they do subconsciously. Then you'll know what to do.
I won't say to never approach with an aerial, but most of the time this is ill-advised. He has too many attacks to name that can dominate us if we attempt an aerial approach. Approach most often from the land, from mid-range, and STOP HIS MOMENTUM! Once you do that, the TL will lose morale and the match-up should tip in your favor at least slightly.

GL Pikas- I'd say this is between 50:50 or 55:45 TL's favor.
 

MJG

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I've seen TLs play campy and somewhat aggressive in this match up.

Match Up ratios should be thrown out in my opinion..Pros/Cons should be taken into consideration.

*Feel free to add to the Pros/Cons list if there is anything that you feel should be noted in this MU*

TLs Pros:
-Spammable Projectiles are somewhat useful in this MU.
-Zair and Bair beat out Jolt.
-Racks up damage fairly fast.
-Disjointed hit box (Sword) will be out pikachu in the air.
-He can out camp pika on some stages.

Cons:
-Lacks kill moves (Most TLs have gotten past this barrier though)
-When momentum is lost, he will take some damage tryin to knock the opponent back out to either camp him or keep him at mid range again.
-He "can" have trouble getting back on stage.

Pikachu's Pros:
-Racks up damage pretty well.
-Can weave through the projectiles pretty well in this MU due to size.
-Can close gaps quickly on TL.
-He can out camp TL if TL camps him wrong.

Cons:
-Can't CG TL *lol*
-Has trouble killing like TL (from my understanding)
-Is light weight

***For the most part, the stages for both TL and pikachu don't give one character a huge advantage. Only a few (IMO) do this in this MU.

Stages for TL:
-Battlefield
-Yoshi's Island (I hate this stage personally but I would assume that Pikachu mains hate it even more :p)

Stages for Pikachu:
-Halberd (Every pikachu I have played has taken me to halberd)
-Final Destination ( Depends on how campy the Pika is I guess)

The matches that Shadow posted show how campy Pikachu vs TL can be (Jerm vs Pika Pika).

Here are some matches vs Stealth Raptor that were recorded awhile ago (where he doesn't camp)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDJuhAp3cjE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVjnJIWmdRE&feature=related

TL;DR: This MU is gay

Ill probably give some more input on this Match Up later. Just woke up >_> (Jerm should be posting fairly soon ;))

Peace Pikachu boards.
 

TheJerm

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Subscribing so I can lurk.

I say the match up is even or slightly TL. They both can keep eachother away, but I think TL has a slightly easier time doing it mainly because of our arials.
 

Stealth Raptor

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i agree with the jerm, the matchup is even-tlink favor, i would say 55-45 tlink. and im gonna camp my *** off now mjg :)

also, pikachus, if you want to do well at all in this matchup, learn to pshield everything. they can combo with bair if you dont have really strong DI. when tlink is going to kill you, watch out most for usmash and utilt, both are pretty common kill moves for them. also learn to SDI the fsmash so the second part doenst hit
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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The kill is always where I think the match gets weird/boring/spammy. TLink has safer options for landing the kill in this matchup but Pika can be hard to hit. Any time it's low damage vs. high damage you can bet there will be a campfest. Why not? If you're at high damage already the chip damage isn't gonna bother you whether you get outcamped or not.
 

Ussi

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TL's disjoint never bother me cause it's still short, meaning it's still easy to avoid. Getting the kill I would say they are the same though. Usmash > thunder is similiar in power and DI ablility as TL's fsmash. His Usmash is relatively easy to avoid.

TL doesn't combo Pikachu at all after 50% so his best bet is to just knock Pikachu away and spam to damage up. Though I guess there are still bomb combos.

I just find this MU so easy as Pikachu after learning how to deal with it as Ike. Sooo much easier to avoid projectiles when you train using a hard to move character
 

Terios the Hedgehog

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Tlink isn't gonna kill Pika with Fsmash...at least not often. Usmash CAN be hard for TLink to land but completely doable. I'd watch out for his Uair and Fair honestly. That fair can come out of ****ing NO WHERE.
 

Ussi

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i agree, fair kills me most then uair when I never learn to never challenge it. Bair is 3rd when I am doing great at avoiding fair. But fair kills at around 120-130% depending on where you are and staleness
 

KayLo!

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TL doesn't combo Pikachu at all after 50% so his best bet is to just knock Pikachu away and spam to damage up. Though I guess there are still bomb combos.
And zair combos. He can also pseudo-combo with jab cancels if you don't DI correctly.
 

MJG

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TL's disjoint never bother me cause it's still short, meaning it's still easy to avoid. Getting the kill I would say they are the same though. Usmash > thunder is similiar in power and DI ablility as TL's fsmash. His Usmash is relatively easy to avoid.

TL doesn't combo Pikachu at all after 50% so his best bet is to just knock Pikachu away and spam to damage up. Though I guess there are still bomb combos.

I just find this MU so easy as Pikachu after learning how to deal with it as Ike. Sooo much easier to avoid projectiles when you train using a hard to move character
After looking at this post, I must ask: What good toonlinks do you play?

F Smash won't be thrown out there too often >_>

And Bair shouldn't reall be killing pikachu until around 160%

Its not a move that should be considered a kill move...
 

Ussi

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After looking at this post, I must ask: What good toonlinks do you play?

F Smash won't be thrown out there too often >_>

And Bair shouldn't reall be killing pikachu until around 160%

Its not a move that should be considered a kill move...
My experience is outdated. I played HR like when he first started offline (this is over a year ago, was a bit off but still only my Pikachu could take games off him, and I was an Ike main that time)

not thrown out often means it still gets used.

Pikachu can maneuver around TL's kill moves. Fair, however, does have its surprise effect at times.

Live long enough and it can kill
 

KayLo!

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Well, in any case, both characters will probably be living for a really long time apart from spikes/thunder kills/lucky gimps.

Which stages do you guys prefer against TL? (And @TLs: which stages are you guys most comfortable/uncomfortable on?)
 

Ussi

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I have to say Pikachu can't win a campfest, so PS1 is the best stage as it hinders TL's long range camping.

BF is the worst cause TL can camp to limit approaching due to the platforms and the angle he can send his projectiles. Also his aerials can exploit Pikachu better on BF's platforms after his projectiles.
 

Legendary Pikachu

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**************
Yay! I am in Austin Texas visiting the relatives again for those in the area... (jerm? are you close? Fight me ^_^!)
**************

Excellent summary, Kaylo.
He ate me alive. The best I did was bring him to his 2nd stock and a high % a few times. Then again I had very little prior TL practice.
You probably are right. If I do remember right, the other TL experience you had was actually against my lil bro at C3 and you lost that one too. Are you going to apex? We can meet again ^_^.

i agree with the jerm, the matchup is even-tlink favor, i would say 55-45 tlink. and im gonna camp my *** off now mjg :)

also, pikachus, if you want to do well at all in this matchup, learn to pshield everything.
I love stealth. He and I think the exact same stuff, and boy, I learned how to dance against projectiles all too well....

I just find this MU so easy as Pikachu after learning how to deal with it as Ike. Sooo much easier to avoid projectiles when you train using a hard to move character
I normally go Link and Ganondorf against marths and stuff in tons of friendlies. You got that right!

****
Toon Link and Pikachu ftw!
 

TheJerm

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Im like 2.5 hours away from austin. If your still around june 12th, come to houston for hobo. Alot of great players, and at two top TLs for you to play. (me and hyro)
 

Legendary Pikachu

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Im like 2.5 hours away from austin. If your still around june 12th, come to houston for hobo. Alot of great players, and at two top TLs for you to play. (me and hyro)
Dang it. I come back before then. One day, I'll go to TX just for the brawl. I hear that my brother plays somewhat similar to Hyro--that'll be fun. I hope to be back sometime (expect me to definitely be there around Christmas.

*TL snippet (so this post isn't just spam): Watch out for "ups." U-smash, u-air, u-tilt, and DI his f-smash (whenever it does come) up. For pika's, that should shave off 70% of your deaths (unless you just get owned by all of toon link's moves).
 
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