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Matchup Re-Discussion: Peach

KayLo!

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Pikachu vs. Peach
( Link to central matchup thread. )


Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 47:53 in Peach's favor
Can we CG her?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201325
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 50:50, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
Peach Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246380

Summary:

In progress.
 

altairian

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Hmm guess I'll start things off...

Peach is a ***** to fight. Her aerials all have good priority, most are disjointed, and can combo in to each other at low %'s. Dair is especially dangerous at low %'s, if you DI poorly (SDI to the side is the best choice, I believe) then she can combo for 40-50% out of dair.

Fair is incredibly hard to punish OOS. It's pretty common for peach to falling Fair->jab, don't drop your shield unless you KNOW that you can beat out the jab. If she starts mixing up with grabs you're gonna have to start reading what option she's going to choose. Fair autocancel starts as soon as the hitbox comes out, don't expect it to be a laggy move just because it's strong.

On the ground we have the advantage over peach. The only thing to really be careful of is her ftilt, since it has a longer range than you might expect so if the peach has good reactions she might ftilt you out of dash approaches, and her jab simply because it's really fast and can be canceled in to a grab if you aren't expecting it. The problem is keeping her on the ground, since she'll probably float just above ground tjolts. The best option I've found for hitting her in the air is running fairs, as long as you mix it up so she doesn't know when it's coming. I wouldn't suggest challenging her from below, you'll probably just eat a dair.

Her biggest weakness is her airdodge. It's very easy to land thunders on peach since she has to time her airdodge near perfectly in order to avoid it. It might be worthwhile to save your utilt and/or usmash for kill %'s for this purpose. If you don't get a thunder KO on her, her strong momentum cancels and her fatness (she seriously needs to go on a diet...) will have her living over 150% every stock.

This MU is definitely a major spacing battle. It's difficult to land a hit on her when she's in the air, but her only real kill moves are Fair and Usmash, avoid them and you should live well over 150% every stock.

That's all I can think of for the moment =)
 

TheBlossomingLily

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You know what us Peach players worry about? Your Thunder. Why? Our Air Dodge. Your Thunder can easily hit us as soon as we come out of our slow, cursed Air Dodge. Sure we like using D-Airs while floating, but we don't like being way up high in the air (though I guess that goes for almost ALL characters, lol). But we can't even just approach with D-Air without being cautious because I think we'd just be asking to get hit by your Down Smash. And our Turnips are bad for gimping you, though we'll obviously still be using them a lot for basic Brawling.

That's all I can say since I haven't Brawled many Pikachu players...
 

EdreesesPieces

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I think that's pretty accurate. When Peach is up high, it's hard to avoid Pika's thunder. Her recover options are limited because against a lot of characters, if she has her float she will just recover really high. That option is removed against Pika, mainly because of that blasted slower air dodge.

I think this is a pretty even matchup. Peach can do ground floated nairs and bairs to combat QAC's. Even occasional use of Peach bomber discourages use of QAC. In shirt, Pikachu can do some nasty combos to Peach and has less problems killing her than he does the rest of the cast, but I believe QAC's is highly, highly reduced to a limited role in the matchup when Peach is used to it and knows how to combat it. Peach's priority can give Pikachu fits, and his priority and spacing/speed combination can give her fits. He can't really chain grab her - the best way for Peach to get out of a low % CG is to just simply hold up to float, and the second the float comes out (you can dodge the grab by floating and you won't go back down into it since you float your first possible free frame) and then you nair to prevent him from reading this and punishing it. Autocancel the nair if he reads that one, and land with a jab.

Does Pikachu CG peach at all - as in, is it frame guaranteed or no? I can never tell because I usually take a lot of damage avoiding grabs at low percents (i fall into stuff since i'm avoiding the grab so much) so I've avoided having Pika's do it to me, but I can't tell if it's frame guaranteed or not.

One effective thing Peach can do to edgeguard Pika is a trick I learned from Vijdo back in Melee against Melee pika. Same idea applies. Just float in front of the ledge and nair when he tries to QA or forward b into it. Pika's recovery is good enough to just simply choose to go on the stage instead, but if you surprise him you can get in a lot of good edgeguarding hits. Also, it takes away a usual reliable recover on the ledge because nobody else in the game can just hog the ledge like that and attack you while protecting it. Even MK has to drop and regrab. Peach can jsut float there in front of, sort of "guarding it" and when Pika QA's into you you can reflexively input nair as Peach. Nair lasts long enough where even if he quick attack's another direction and uses the second into the ledge, you will still hit him.

I also agree that Thunder jolts are good against turnips. Really limit them. .Turnips still have some uses, but they are hard to use well, and give her the same approaching advantage they do with, say turnips against a metaknight.

Even matchup to me 50-50. Both chars got a lot of decent tricks against the other. I'd say that Peach has better range and damage racking capabilities whereas pika kills a little earlier and camps/plays a better switch up defensive/run and attack game.

Last point - Never take a shower when a pokemon is around. He will Peek-a-ch-you.
 

EdreesesPieces

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Hey, i was just trying to give matchup advice. if you have better suggestions of what to do when pokemon are aroudn you should post them urself. hmph ;)

Funny thing is I just came here randomly, then i saw the peach thread going oh wtf?
 

altairian

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We typically wait for more input from our mains before inviting the mains of other characters to our MU discussions. Glad to have gotten your input regardless!
 

M15t3R E

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I'll begin by stating my opinion that this is a fairly even match-up. Peach is my top secondary so let's see what I can input.
Peach can do many of her d-air combos against Pikachu that she is accustom to using, however she can get sucked into a d-smash before d-air connects, so it may be risky if the Peach usually relies on this frequently. And Peach's dash to f-air is still a **** killing technique. If I'm not mistaken, Pikachu's f-throw to u-smash isn't guaranteed on Peach at any %, whereas it is guaranteed against almost every other character at low %'s. This is due to Peach's overly floaty nature. By the same token, Pikachu's u-tilts don't set Peach up for **** as much as it does against most others. Once Peach is at a high % vs. an experienced Pikachu and she gets hit by u-tilt, you can kiss the stars. From there it's thunder and your air dodge won't avoid it. Peach's, remember that your n-air can reliably shut down an overly aggressive Pikachu's approaches. Use it a lot. And Pikachus, use d-smash to shut down Peach's most usual approaches. Because Pikachu can recover from practically anywhere, while edgeguarding, Peach will find it more practical to float off-stage next to the edge as opposed to "sniping" the Pikachu with turnips as he tries to recover. When Pikachu is edgeguarding Peach, thunder is rat's best friend. Peach's slow air movement and sluggish air dodge will make this cake.
 

Stealth Raptor

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one little thing i would like to point out- i am 99% sure we can nair out of shield between individual uses of their dair and it will hit before their next one comes out. also dont let them bait you while they are floating- they can accelerate rapidly while floating and you will just eat a fair. camp them hard, as they do outprioritise you in the air, and if they land on you with an aerial prepare for the jab and just roll away and reset
 

Leaf.

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Although I don't have too much experience, I like this match a lot. It's great camp grounds, and my thunder is 90% if it's not an error on my part. The match forces me to fight in a style I'm not used to (because of her being so light) and I can't completely rush without eating a Fair. (Not that I'm rushing in to everything, it's just occasional, I promise!)

It's a little bit different to guard with peach, if I jump out to hit her when she is high with thunder, she can use her float to retreat back for a second and move around it. She can do the same if I jump out to meet her, she backs off and hits with an air.

Does Nair cancel t-jolts? I don't think so, but if she wants an approach she just can float over them like alt said...maybe it's not as easy to camp as I thought.

But that's my thoughts. I don't fight peach much, and I only use her rarely for friendlies.
 

TheBlossomingLily

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one little thing i would like to point out- i am 99% sure we can nair out of shield between individual uses of their dair and it will hit before their next one comes out.
Lol, 99%? I'm 100% sure Pikachu can do that. Just make sure to remember how often you end up doing that; people learn. If the Peach seems to be acting stupid and tries to D-Air again, don't expect a D-Air right after if you already punished it before. If you try to punish again, the Peach will probably use her own N-Air in response.

If the Peach player DOES try to D-Air into another D-Air and gets punished AGAIN, smack him/her on the side of the head for me.
:laugh:
 

KayLo!

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You can nair after each dair, but if she's retreating, you'll whiff + put yourself in a bad position. Gotta pay attention to whether she's offensively or defensively dairing.

I know a ton about this MU, so I'll contribute more in a bit. For now, I'll say that I think the matchup is 50:50, but a defensive, floating Peach with a turnip in hand is extremely tough to get around.
 

TheBlossomingLily

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Oh. So much for that idea. I guess Peach should only use the N-Air after D-Air to mess up Sonic's Oos attacks then, lol. I need to Brawl more Pikachus. >.<

You can nair after each dair, but if she's retreating, you'll whiff + put yourself in a bad position. Gotta pay attention to whether she's offensively or defensively dairing.
So if a Peach is expecting to be punished after use of her D-Air, she should retreat and F-Air? o.o
 

Stealth Raptor

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yeah it only works against peaches who have over commited. if they try to move away behind you a bair should hit and if they move away ahead of you a OOS fair will hit depending on spacing. its a BAD idea to dair pikachus shield
 

KayLo!

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I wouldn't say it's a bad idea....... only if her spacing is bad or if she dairs the same way every time. Pika's shield gets poked extremely fast by Peach, even with shield tilting. -_- Her aerials + jab = running a way a lot just to refill your shield.
 

Stealth Raptor

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works for me- wont get hit either way, sounds like a good way to waste time while nothing happens waiting for whiffed moves. thats honestly how i beat kos-mos- waited and camped and waited for him to mispace something and punish
 

KayLo!

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Except then she has turnips. x.o Not saying Peach is impossible or anything, but sitting and waiting can be dangerous vs. a Peach who has her shieldpoke skills down. Pika's shield is tiny...... it wears down quickly, and practically every move she has stabs pretty well.

Mostly talking about low-mid percentage. Early stock, I think Peach is slightly better than Pika at getting damage in, but once you're ~50-60%, she turns into a one-hit wonder and can't do much. You have plenty of time between then and when she can kill you to even things up -- and probably get the kill off before her.
 

Stealth Raptor

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if its tiny plank the ledge for 5 seconds. as a pikachu you should never be getting your shield poked if managed right. and turnips are fun if you get them :) super glide toss ftw, though if she gets that beam sword.....
 

KayLo!

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Planking's lame. But yeah, I guess you're right that it's legit if you can get away in time. -_____- She's still really good at shieldpoking Pika, though. His shield's pretty ****ing small.

Imo, stage choice factors in a lot with this matchup. Platforms are good, but only if they don't hinder your tjolts..... being able to jolt her from above is good.

I love Frigate for this MU. <3
 

Pikabunz

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Would Norfair be a good stage to cp? I'd imagine it'd be hard for her to move around on that stage because of her crappy jump.
 

Stealth Raptor

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however the close sides could allow her to kill you early. if they banned lylat, and norfair now becomes common cause of mlg (yessssssssss) i might take them here. definitely not helpful for their floating
 

KayLo!

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Yeah, Norfair's good. You can plank a lot (ewww~), tjolt from above her, and harass her with thunder from below since you fall a LOT faster than she does and can get to the bottom way before her.

EDIT: @Stealth: Fair's pretty easy to avoid as a KO move, imo...... it's a good move, and it's an excellent punisher, but she has to catch up with you first. =P We definitely outcamp and outmaneuver her on Norfair.
 

KayLo!

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I get ***** by my lack of patience and unwillingness to camp enough. I hate this matchup.

Inviting the Peaches!
 

KayLo!

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Stay near the center, and when she gets down to you....... run away to the top and snipe with tjolts, lol. When she makes it up to you, go back down to the bottom and harrass her with thunder.

It's super gay, but tjolt + thunder >>> turnips here, and her low aerial speed in general (not including float, but it won't help her as much here) means that she won't be able to keep up with you as you run up and down and abuse the ledges.
 

Leaf.

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It's almost pure evil...Muah hahaha!

Anyways, what about turnip percents? I read somewhere that the stage would affect which color pikmin Olimar will pull up, does the same work with Peach getting turnip/beam sword/I think I pulled a bomb one time?
 

KayLo!

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I'm pretty sure her turnip/item percents are the same regardless of stage.

EDIT: ****in ninja. :mad:
 

Leaf.

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Ok, one last thing I should have thought of a couple seconds ago. I've heard things about her parasol, is it something dangerous or did I mishear this?
 

gantrain05

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Dair is ok, spacing Bairs is better in my experience, best pika can do is trade hits with it, he's also pretty light and not too much of a pain to kill with a well placed Fair, pikas Dair WILL hit thru our parasol so watch for that while recovering, QaC isn't too bad, just nair or bair him thru it or something. watch out for pikas Fairs tho, try to stay spaced so that he doesn't land one on you because he can set up some nasty stuff out of it lol. peachies will most likely be gettin killed by Nairs tho, it seems that pika has a hard time landing any of his smashes on peach so really watch the Nair.
 
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