Match Up Discussion 2010 (Zelda vs Meta Knight)

Darkmusician · Apr 25, 2010

I'm not sure what the first post of a match up should look like so I'll probably be editing this as we go along.

So yeah this is pretty straight forward.

Zelda vs Meta Knight

Please keep all input constructive and coherent. Also I understand that opinions may vary/differ from region to region, however please be ready to back up your claims.

No spamming, flaming and stay on topic.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

My thoughts...

-80/20 minimum, 90/10 maximum (Honestly the little 10 difference is of little consequence. It's still not a good match up)
-Zelda's hardest match up in actual practice
-Make sure you win the first match on the starter stage, otherwise you are at the mercy of his counter pick
-Against Meta Knight your best bet is to stick to the starter stages.
-Don't get comfortable just because you're up a stock or two
-Your spacing, reading and punishing must be on point if you want to keep up with Meta Knight
-Be mindful of your second jump/how you DI and momentum cancel because Meta Knight can and will follow you no matter where you are.
-Efficient use of move freshness/decay will aid you in killing Meta Knight as early as possible.
-You don't have to use Meta Knight to beat Meta Knight. However I recommend learning Meta Knight to understand the character and how he works because it will help you in how you approach the match up.

GodAtHand · Apr 25, 2010

I'm going to take a backseat to this discussion. I have definitely played my share of Meta Knights, and if I were to go off of what I think from playing them (Shadow, Fatal, etc included) I would say it is 40-50 Meta. But how many of the Meta Knights I have played have seriously taken the time to learn the ins and outs of the match-up? Probably none.

I can still help by inputting on whether some of the things the others are saying have ever worked for me or haven't and stuff like that, but I will mostly just watch this discussion.

Edit: Math lulz, Leaving in for the lulz. (40-60) obviously for you mathematicians.

KayLo! · Apr 25, 2010

40-50? Lol.

I don't do this MU much except in dubs, but a positive point is that his nado and glide are pretty useless against Zelda. It's wtfeasy to pop out of tornado (and in most cases, because you can pop out so early, you can get to the ground/a platform before he finishes); if he's gliding, Din's or usmash will beat him 80% of the time. The only exceptions are if he glide attacks Din's (in which case, explode it behind him) or attempts to glide attack you before you can usmash.

GodAtHand · Apr 25, 2010

Well 40-60 lol. realistically being my win-lose percentages against good Meta Knights. I don't really have a technically stand-point to go off of because of my reasoning above lol. I know what I meant, but I am awful at math.

Edit: I also thought everyone should know that it took me like 3 minutes to do the math there and discover that 40 + 50 = not 100.

Kataefi · Apr 26, 2010

nice dm it looks good

are there any videos of this matchup at all at higher levels?

what's the best/worst starter stage to take him on or is it more of a 'go wherever you're comfortable' thing?

GodAtHand · Apr 26, 2010

I have an old video of me and Fatal... but it isn't that great. He SDs once and I do some dumb ****. It does show how easy it is to pop out of tornado though.

For stages I would say wherever you are comfortable, but remember that if something hampers his recovery it is probably even worse for you.

JigglyZelda003 · Apr 26, 2010

if im comfortable on both SV and BF, which one should i opt to go for more often?

or is the difference so minimal i might as well coin toss it?

GodAtHand · Apr 26, 2010

I've been more of a SV fan lately, the extra space is nice for characters that like to try to pressure you. Plus I actually pulled off a dtilit combo to drop through bair on the moving platform in a doubles match the other day.

I guess I would decide, from either prior play against this person or from watching them, if they used platforms more successfully than me or not and that would be a deciding factor.

KayLo! · Apr 26, 2010

I prefer SV, although MK can bypass the ledge grab limit (if there is one) and "plank" by gliding under the stage and landing on the platform as it moves from one side to the other.

You probably won't run into this, though..... I've only ever seen it done once (when M2K did it), and honestly, most MKs won't be scared enough by Zelda to try to time her out, lol. (He also doesn't have much trouble planking on any other stage if he really wants to...... x.x)

GodAtHand · Apr 26, 2010

And that strategy is just asking to be hit with Din's fire.

KayLo! · Apr 26, 2010

Din's is kinda slow. ;; If it looks like it's gonna hit him, he can just snap to the ledge and use up a ledge grab.

I mainly brought up planking since it's a legitimate strategy against Zelda. Besides trying to hit with Din's, there's not much she can do.

mountain_tiger · Apr 26, 2010

JigglyZelda003 said:
if im comfortable on both SV and BF, which one should i opt to go for more often?

or is the difference so minimal i might as well coin toss it?

I'd say SV, for one simple reason: Zelda does well with BF's platforms, but MK does even better.

GodAtHand · Apr 26, 2010

If you are starting from the other side of the stage Din's gets large enough to hit under SV at the edge of the stage, it might not work every time, but after it does once I don't think he would try for risk of spiking off the underside of the stage.

KayLo! · Apr 26, 2010

Risk? He can tech the stage. It's not that hard when there's a blatant visual clue for when Din's is going to explode (when she pulls her arm back).

MK can plank Zelda with absolutely no problem. Din's is not a threat unless he's trying to glide in offensively.

Just my 2 cents..... like I said, I don't do this MU much in singles, so maybe you've discovered some amazing anti-plank strategy. (EDIT: That was non-sarcastic, btw...... if you really do have a strategy like that, that'd be amazing. But I don't think Din's is it. x.x)

20:80 is my opinion of the ratio, if it counts for anything. =X

GodAtHand · Apr 26, 2010

Yah I wasn't really thinking he was a entire stock ahead, I was sort of thinking last stock he has a percentage lead. That wouldn't stop him from doing it if he was a stock ahead, but I would still try... he could screw that tech up and if he is near 100% he's dead.

Ledge warping might be quick enough to either grab the ledge if he goes for it, or to get the jump on the platform so to speak.

But really... if a meta is planking a low tier that hard he should auto-lose, new ruleset.

#HBC | Scary · Apr 26, 2010

I like the auto-lose rule for sure.

I see this as 30-70, which is as low as I'll go. The main problem of this battle is if MK knocks you into the air, which most of his moves do, how do you get down safely. Truth is you can't really without some risk. You can always FW to the ground if he chases but that can get punished. The objective is to always try to be on the ground; the on;y time you should ever take to the air....EVER, is when you are stalking him in the air. That's it. We have a situational kill on the moving platform of SV, being Grab release to "insert kill move here" lol.

I personally think though, that if you can bypass the low % gimp; you should never die in this MU, and I'm a firm believer of that. If you have the momentum cancel down, USE IT because if you do, you should always be able to make the stage and not worry about having to shoot for the ledge. Honestly! You may even just make it back with your second jump, but that lil' **** should not gimp you past the mistakes on low %s.

I kinda treat MK like I do IC's. Wall with F-smash and change it up if he catches on. If it hits shield than we are safe, especially if he rushes in again because we get free Dtilts or at least contested ones. He can't hurt us with much else but Tornado or Shuttle Loop, which we can shield. The only problem with playing him like this is one lapse of concentration, and the least that'll happen is you get knocked into the air. We want to avoid that.

That's my two cents on the MU.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

Make sure you win the first match on the starter stage, otherwise you are at the mercy of his counter pick

This is extremely important. If you do not win on your starter stage, you will have essentially lost the set. Remember, you can only ban 1 stage, but MK has many counterpicks that he can use to exploit Zelda's weaknesses. Ban Rainbow Cruise? He's going to take you to Frigate, Brinstar, or god knows where. Even if you win the first match, MK can still easily bring it back on any of the neutrals. It's MK. Even if it's your counterpick, he still has a sizable advantage.

but a positive point is that his nado and glide are pretty useless against Zelda. It's wtfeasy to pop out of tornado (and in most cases, because you can pop out so early, you can get to the ground/a platform before he finishes)

Actually, the Nado is amazing against Zelda. Even if Zelda pops out of the Nado, most MKs will land as soon as they see you pop out. Combined with Zelda's slow falling speed, she can't even punish MK after popping out of the Nado, since she'll be too slow to catch up to him. Even landing on a platform isn't that good at all, because MK is amazing at controlling people on top of platforms, especially people that have poor defensive options like Zelda. As a general rule of thumb, if MK is below you, you're in a bad spot. Getting grounded should be everyone's primary objective, but the Nado is just another way to deny Zelda her footing, which in turn leads to Zelda getting smacked around very hard.

You can always FW to the ground if he chases but that can get punished.

FW is a flat out terrible option in general. The reason for this is simple. FW can move you in like 8 directions. The problem is that 5 of those directions lead to death. (upwards directions and directly sidewards) If MK even sees you do FW in the air, he can just wait below you, and punish your reappearance. It's not hard to do so, especially since there's only like 3 options where you can reappear.

I personally think though, that if you can bypass the low % gimp; you should never die in this MU, and I'm a firm believer of that.

The problem is that MK is the king of gimps. Getting gimped isn't so much a possibility as it is a certainty. Zelda's recovery is just that exploitable and predictable, and MK happens to rule offstage. And MK can still kill Zelda decently anyway. Nairs and Dsmash hurts, and Zelda aint heavy.

I main Bowser. I'm the hardest character for MK to kill horizintally. Even I die from MK's moves. It's not a matter about playing perfectly or not, it will happen.

#HBC | Scary · Apr 27, 2010

I know FW is an awful option, but it's only if he chases pure aggro. I know if he thought just a bit; he could crush my soul mercilessly. It's just another option lol; kind of the "what if" and "hooray I can get away" option =D

Mocha · Apr 27, 2010

FW'ing straight down to the ground if he's chasing pure aggro is obviously better than FW any direction in the air, where you will lag as you free fall. Just be sure to do it soon because the start up on FW is slow as hell. I've been able to up air Zelda (as Zelda) during the starting, spinning animation of FW <<;

Now if he's waiting on the ground for you like MrEh mentioned, you wouldn't FW anywhere to the ground, unless you're trying to hit him with it. But even then, if he sees it coming, he can just shield and punish you as he sees fit.

I guess you can say it's kind of like recovering. If someone is edge-hogging you, you want to FW to the stage with as little lag as possible. If someone is waiting for you on the stage, you want to FW to the ledge. It's a matter of finding when FW is most useful depending on the situation, and obviously, the least we have to use it, the better.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Apr 27, 2010

I'm going to agree with GodatHand and say this match up is 6-4 in MK's favor. He doesn't totally shut down Zelda nor does he **** her as you guys claims.

#HBC | Scary · Apr 27, 2010

Like I said before though, the biggest problem of this MU is getting to the ground when knocked into the air. It's such a pain! Our Dair (YES DAIR!!!) beats a bunch of his attacks or trades but all he has to do his bait it. If he baits it properly then prepare for a world of hurt.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
I'm going to agree with GodatHand and say this match up is 6-4 in MK's favor. He doesn't totally shut down Zelda nor does he **** her as you guys claims.

Any particular reasoning you'd wish to share with us?

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

MrEh said:
Actually, the Nado is amazing against Zelda. Even if Zelda pops out of the Nado, most MKs will land as soon as they see you pop out. Combined with Zelda's slow falling speed, she can't even punish MK after popping out of the Nado, since she'll be too slow to catch up to him. Even landing on a platform isn't that good at all, because MK is amazing at controlling people on top of platforms, especially people that have poor defensive options like Zelda. As a general rule of thumb, if MK is below you, you're in a bad spot. Getting grounded should be everyone's primary objective, but the Nado is just another way to deny Zelda her footing, which in turn leads to Zelda getting smacked around very hard.

Who said anything about punishing tornado? If you pop out on the first or second hit, you have enough time to get to the ground safely, which is all you should be worrying about. This goes for even the shortest-lasting tornado. Zelda falls slow and all, but MK still suffers cooldown (29 frames if you want the number + landing lag if he's doing an aerial nado), which gives you enough time to fastfall/airdodge down. Or even FW far away if you feel it's safer.

Go try it. Tornado with MK, SDI up with Zelda, and you hit the ground while he's in nado's cooldown.

Granted, if your SDI sucks or you react too slowly and can't get out til late, then yeah, it becomes a problem. And landing on a platform isn't the best situation, but since you're on the ground first, you get a head start on dropping through/running away. It's better than being stuck in the air.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

MK is still not being punished for Nadoing, and still receives positioning advantage if you do not SDI out perfectly. SDIing out perfectly obviously won't happen all the time, especially if MK is using the Nado like he's supposed to. (shield pressure, catching you as you fall, anytime when there's a platform around)

The Nado still is an extremely low risk-high reward move to use against Zelda.

Kataefi · Apr 27, 2010

Has anybody considered nayru's when inside the nado? SDI + immediately using nayru's seems to get a good trade for me.

what's a good strategy for when zelda is on the ground? Scary what mixups would you consider? Sometimes I'm scared of just walling with fsmash because it seems like he trade hits me with EVERYTHING! Nair/Fsmash, I end up dealing like 1/2% to him, for this reason I sometimes go wild with tilts lol.

I sometimes find you can anticipate his aerial patterns (like fair) and use a quick din's to snipe him.

I really hate mk!

also just generally - has anyone looked into din's fire for tackling some ledge stuff, not specifically mk but other characters who swing by the ledge often?

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

@MrEh: But you don't even have to SDI perfectly, lol. Zelda's light enough that it's not much of an effort to get out. For all that, MK has plenty of other low risk, high reward moves he can use on her that are 10x more effective.

I just don't see nado being that big of a deal in this matchup. Also: even though the punish isn't guaranteed, you're still at a very small frame advantage when you get out..... dsmash, dtilt, and usmash (on MKs falling from an aerial nado) are all okay choices if you feel like being ballsy.

@Kata: Never tried Naryu's that way. o.O Sounds gimmicky tho.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

Kataefi said:
Has anybody considered nayru's when inside the nado? SDI + immediately using nayru's seems to get a good trade for me.

Any move that makes you spend even more time in the air if you whiff isn't a good idea. Naryu's after SDIing out of the Nado will only work if the MK overextends and keeps moving his Nado upwards. However, nearly every MK will either Nado away or drop to the ground as soon as they see you pop out.

Best option against MK on the ground is to shield and hope he makes a mistake for you to punish. Not kidding. When you're reliant on your opponent making mistakes in order to even TOUCH him, then you know the matchup is terrible.

Dins in general is useless against MK on the ledge, since a quick ledgedrop UpB is all he needs to go right through it. Same thing applies with Marth and Gdub.

you're still at a very small frame advantage when you get out.....

Again, assuming you SDI out fast enough. And assuming that MK lands next to you after you SDI out of the Nado, which will not happen.

GodAtHand · Apr 27, 2010

I didn't want my match-up ratio to be taken into consideration. I honestly don't feel I have played a Meta Knight player that truly knows this match up inside and out. I can see how Meta would have an advantage even a significant one, but I just don't feel it when I play them.

Maybe I'll add in some stuff if the convo continues after APEX. I should ask M2K for some friendlies, or bobby if he goes.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

A matchup ratio is just a number. That being said, I don't even approve of ratios to begin with. I don't want to see people argue over the differences of 20-80 or 30-70 when the differences are moot in the first place. We can just write down "****" and move on.

Zelda is one of those characters that becomes infinitely easier to control once you understand why she's so limited in the first place. Zeldas did decently in our region until people figured her out, then she just became laughable.

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

Whatever you say, Eh. But if you're playing Zelda and really can't pop out of nado early, get your SDI skills up, please. Nado's so '08..... we should all be able to deal with it by now, and if you're not spacing like an idiot, you should be shielding most of them anyway.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · Apr 27, 2010

MrEh said:
Any particular reasoning you'd wish to share with us?

Nope not really.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

KayLo! said:
Whatever you say, Eh. But if you're playing Zelda and really can't pop out of nado early, get your SDI skills up, please. Nado's so '08..... we should all be able to deal with it by now, and if you're not spacing like an idiot, you should be shielding most of them anyway.

Attack the argument, not the person.

We still have these important facts.

-Nado is still unpunishable no matter how fast Zelda breaks out
-SDIing out of the Nado is not guaranteed (this is not Bowser's Dsmash or a smart bomb)
-Nado will always guarantee either positioning advantage for MK or a neutral position

Shielding most of the Nados that MK throws at you doesn't solve the problem, because MK will Nado Zelda most of the time when she's in the air.

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

I meant "you" in general. -_-

The way I look at it is: if you pop out of nado, you're taking only 1-2% damage by the time it's even somewhat stale, and you're guaranteed safe footing (at least temporarily). You also have a halfway decent chance of punishing him, although this depends on how he lands.

I mean, if you wanna call a ~1% move effective when he has much better options, that's cool. But considering how much other crap he can do that's so much worse, I call tornado useless in this particular matchup.

As for the ease of SDI'ing out of it, that depends on the player. But speaking as someone who doesn't even bother to SDI half the time and STILL gets out early most of the time, I really can't see it being as hard as you're making it out to be. We're not DDD or Bowser. We're light and floaty.

EDIT: If it makes you feel better, you can replace the word "useless" with "not nearly as effective as it is in other MUs." Because I feel like you're nitpicking over that one word.

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

The damage the Nado does to Zelda is insignificant compared to the damage it leads into. With platforms, he is guaranteed an advantageous position over Zelda, which is below her. If there are no platforms around, then Zelda is guaranteed a neutral position at best. You only have a chance of punishing him if he lands near you, which will not happen. MKs will always move away from you if you pop out of the Nado, unless you land on a platform.

EDIT: If it makes you feel better, you can replace the word "useless" with "not nearly as effective as it is in other MUs." Because I feel like you're nitpicking over that one word.

The difference between "useless" and "not as good as it normally is" is pretty significant.

Nado being less useful against Zelda, but STILL being an amazing move in controlling her shows exactly how amazing the Nado is in the first place. Or how bad Zelda is.

GodAtHand · Apr 27, 2010

Jumping in for my sake.

About Tornado. Most of the time w/o DI Zelda will still pop out (noticed when watching the other Zelda's in NE fight meta's) Once out if you fast fall I really don't think he can punish you if you are doing it right. He may fall faster than you but you have more air speed. So even if it's close you can just move away from him while fast falling. It's not like moving left or right reduces your falling speed. NVM that when grounded Fsmash breaks nado as well as upsmash if he is hovering.

That Air speed goes both ways too. You can get farther away to be safe. Or if he is close to you and going to land momentarily before you you can use it to use his landing lag for a surprise lightning kick if you are feeling feisty.

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

@Eh: Meh, now you're repeating yourself. I'll take that as my cue to say: we'll have to agree to disagree, lol. Imo, nado just isn't a big deal in this matchup once you learn how to deal with it, but apparently it's still giving other people trouble.

EDIT: Thank you, Riot. I don't get why people are still having so many problems with this move. @.@

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

The Nado honestly shouldn't be giving anyone trouble. Because Zeldas don't go to tournaments anyway.

GodAtHand · Apr 27, 2010

I have had trouble with tornados before though... in doubles once I pop out the other one is there and then I fall into it... and then it keeps happening....... o god ITS AWFUL!

KayLo! · Apr 27, 2010

Lol. Well, double MK is another story. X.X

MrEh · Apr 27, 2010

You mean two MKs using double Nado?

Well, you can't really do anything about that. lol

EDIT: ninja'd

Match Up Discussion 2010 (Zelda vs Meta Knight)

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