New Game and Watch Matchup Thread!! Currently: Ice Climbers

Today · May 9, 2010

New Game and Watch Matchup Thread

As you know the matchup thread has been out of date and haven't been touched in some time. I decided to make a new one to make sure to keep it updated and it constantly being discussed. 
Currently: Ice Climbers 

Solid disadvantage 35/65 or worse.
Disadvantage 40/60
Slight Disadvantage 45/55
Even 50/50
Slight Advantage 55/45
Advantage 60/40
Solid advantage 65/35 or better

Finally finished up this chart. I got this idea from the Peach boards actually and the help of a friend but I finally got it up after a few days

Since we're just started this up again this is what I suggest. I'm going to take a list of characters in the old matchup thread with their ratio; part by part I'm going to do this. I want you guys to see which ratio needs to be discussed and why.

Example: MK is 40/60 MK's favor. If a few of you disagree and find it to be 35:65 MK favor we will do a redisccusion thread to try and come up with a conclusion.
However if people agree with this matchup ratio we will leave it as it is and I will get the info from the previous thread and post it up in the new thread.

We're going to be starting all over from this list if it needs to be redicussed. I know Zac tried to get up DK and Lucario but they kind of just died and thus we never came up with a conclusion so if we need to redo them we will.

So let's do this:

Marth - 35/65
Snake - 35/65
Metaknight - 40/60
Diddy - 40/60

Game and Watch - 50/50
Donkey Kong - 50/50
Wario - 50/50
Zero Suit Samus - 50/50
Olimar - 55/45
Toon Link - 55/45

King DeDeDe - 60/40
Ike - 60/40
Falco - 60/40
Kirby - 60/40
Wolf - 60/40
Ganondorf - 60/40
Sheik - 60/40
Bowser - 60/40
Link - 60/40
Lucario - 60/40

From this list please post what you guys find wrong and we'll start on rediscussing those. Like I said. If majority feels that most of them are right we'll leave them be. I'll be starting things off this way. So let's get the ball rolling!

Old GnW matchup thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174763&highlight=Match+up

PentaSalia · May 9, 2010

umm so..you're going to make a new thread for each character eventually?o_o

or maybe i read it wrong,sorry lol

anyway,good stuff

kewl · May 9, 2010

Snake should be 40/60
MK should be 35/65

Today · May 9, 2010

No. Only characters that need to be worked on. Just like what Kewl did. If you find something you disagree upon in the ratio post it and say why. If there's a lot of disagreement we'll rediscuss it.

However, I do agree with MK being 35/65 but I think Snake should stay the way he is.

kewl · May 9, 2010

Snake's the easiest out of the 4 bad MUs gw has.
I don't see how he should be 35/65.
40/60 is a good Snake ratio.

Alphicans · May 9, 2010

According to those ratios these are the match-ups that MUST be rediscussed: snake, mk, falco, ddd and toon link.

Snake will probably become easier, MK harder, falco harder, DDD harder and toon link harder lol.

SFA Smiley · May 9, 2010

I play mostly Wi-fi and as such don't feel comfortable giving my opinion too much. but I can totally say something witty every once in a while. I'm awesome at that =)

Lightning Tiger · May 9, 2010

Falco is a lot harder than 60/40
More like 50/50 or 55/45

Need to rediscuss him.

Vinnie · May 9, 2010

38:62 (closer to 4:6 than 35:65)
____

4:6

45:55

on neutrals, 35:65

35:65

45:55
____
:dedede:

45:55

55:45

45:55

5:5

really fun
____

55:45

4:6

5:5

6:4

6:4
____

45:55

55:45

5:5 (yes, I said it.)

5:5
____
:shiek: 5:5

6:4 ~ 55:45
-

55:45
-

7:3

55:45

6:4

55:45
____

65:35

55:45

55:45 (egg planking destroys gnw... I need help with this...)

55:45

65:35

7:3

101:-1
____

65:35

6:4

7:3

Rajam · May 9, 2010

Marth - 35/65
Snake - 35/65
Metaknight - 40/60
Diddy - 40/60

Game and Watch - 50/50
Donkey Kong - 50/50
Wario - 50/50
Zero Suit Samus - 50/50
Olimar - 55/45
Toon Link - 55/45 (45/55)

King DeDeDe - 60/40 (50/50)
Ike - 60/40
Falco - 60/40 (55/45)
Kirby - 60/40
Wolf - 60/40
Ganondorf - 60/40 (65/35)
Sheik - 60/40
Bowser - 60/40
Link - 60/40
Lucario - 60/40

I think those in red should be changed

EDIT: I also agree with many of Vinnie's ratios, specially some characters like Pit, Peach, Yoshi, DK, Dedede and Ike. I disagree with Falco, Wario and Luigi, which I think are 55/45 the three of them, and Sonic+Bowser (Sonic 65:35 and Bowser 60:40)

Alphicans · May 10, 2010

Vinnie, you think IC's are GaW's worst m/u? Seems pretty evenish to me :\. Losing to DDD and olimar seems like a stretch as well. We definitely beat pika 60-40 at least.

PentaSalia · May 10, 2010

lol vinnie

yoshi vs G&W is no where NEAR 5:5
you just never fought a yoshi before so his planking took you by surprise(even tho yoshis planking isnt very solid anyway:l)

That's all yoshi can really do vs G&W because bair/nair pretty much shuts down any approaches he may have. All G&W has to do really is just not get caught by yoshi's little pivot tricks lol.

60:40 at least

Vinnie · May 10, 2010

Alphicans said:
Vinnie, you think IC's are GaW's worst m/u? Seems pretty evenish to me :\.

play Meep/Lain. Or, me. Lol. It's easy. It's like, 2 moves. uair and grab.

Losing to DDD and olimar seems like a stretch as well.

definitely not lol, Atomsk and I both agree that Dedede wins 55:45, and we're 1-1 in tourney atm. An Olimar that can tech and camp hard will **** gnw. gnw's dthrow is his only saving grace, and his edge-game.

We definitely beat pika 60-40 at least.

why? it's not like "hurr durr gnw beats pika cuz of bucket". it's a lot more in depth than that. I would say we're still at a slight advantage though.

edit: @penta you're right. What was I thinking. I'll still put 55:45 though :I

PentaSalia · May 10, 2010

lol IC's is definetly G&W's worst MU,worse than MK/marths,srly

that match up is both physically and mentally challenging

and frustrating:l
even decent IC's are going to give you trouble

Vinnie · May 10, 2010

You tell'em Penta! Shoulda had you sign that dollar! XD

jk

Cinnanmonny · May 10, 2010

oh you guys hate ICs too eh?

A2ZOMG · May 10, 2010

Alphicans said:
According to those ratios these are the match-ups that MUST be rediscussed: snake, mk, falco, ddd and toon link.

Snake will probably become easier, MK harder, falco harder, DDD harder and toon link harder lol.

Snake isn't going to change (mu is pretty much beaten to death), Marth will become slightly easier (there are random things about Marth's depth that most G&W players aren't totally aware of that they would probably benefit from knowing), DDD will become a lot easier (at least on Battlefield), Falco is definitely going to be harder.

Toon Link will probably become easier depending on how useful crouch -> powershield turns out to be. This tactic is how you will consistently get around his Z-air imo.

Today · May 10, 2010

From this list:

Marth - 35/65
Snake - 35/65
Metaknight - 40/60 35/65
Diddy - 40/60

Game and Watch - 50/50
Donkey Kong - 50/50 45/55
Wario - 50/50
Zero Suit Samus - 50/50
Olimar - 55/45 45/55
Toon Link - 55/45 45/55

King DeDeDe - 60/40 45/55
Ike - 60/40 55/45
Falco - 60/40 55/45 (50/50)
Kirby - 60/40
Wolf - 60/40
Ganondorf - 60/40
Sheik - 60/40
Bowser - 60/40
Link - 60/40
Lucario - 60/4055/45

I'm thinking we should start with MK, Olimar, Tink, Dedede, and Falco. In that order. Since MK's ratio needs to be changed.
We'll probably need to do DK and some of them over since they weren't completed and just stopped. Unless Zac wants to finish them. Whichever works. But let's first focus on those listed.

Anyone agree? We also need more opinions on these ratios. The more disagreement the easier things are.

Mr. Escalator · May 10, 2010

I'd give priority to changing Snake to 40-60 over discussing MK/Olimar/TL like you suggested. Snake's ratio has been wrong for AGES, while MK's been at least seen some back and forth.

So Snake, then MK imo. Then we can figure out what to fix next. The top tiers have priority, though.

Rajam · May 10, 2010

What? Snake is a solid 35:65 imo, I don't know what has changed in this matchup since the beginning of Brawl (besides BB), and Snake' nades are still broken in this

Lightning Tiger · May 10, 2010

Cinnanmonny said:
oh you guys hate ICs too eh?

Meep is a nightmare.
Just run away.
Bair is all we have.
:/

Vinnie · May 10, 2010

Lightning Tiger said:
Meep is a nightmare.
Just run away.
Bair is all we have.
:/

We don't have bair against Meep... we don't...

Kofu · May 10, 2010

Does anyone else think that ZSS is harder than 50:50?
Because I do.

Lightning Tiger · May 10, 2010

Vinnie said:
We don't have bair against Meep... we don't...

What do we have left then?
Random D tilts?

Today · May 10, 2010

I honestly think Snake is 35:65 as well. But I can do add Snake to the list as well if we really need it.

A2ZOMG · May 11, 2010

Rajam said:
What? Snake is a solid 35:65 imo, I don't know what has changed in this matchup since the beginning of Brawl (besides BB), and Snake' nades are still broken in this

You beat him on stages where it's easy to time him out. Get a lead and platform camp. Not much he can do about it.

And his stuff is actually punishable, and you have real ways of getting grabs.

His grenades are really annoying yeah, but you don't usually have to worry about his tilts when he's setting them up, which is your opportunity to get in a grab for some free chip damage and a reset/setup.

It's pretty much only 6/4 at worst, you can definitely beat him at least if the stage works out for you, the matchup is pretty annoying on FD or Smashville though.

I've been playing the Snake matchup a LOT, and I really think it's important to emphasize how easily G&W juggles Snake. Other random thing that is worth knowing is that you can shieldgrab him out of F-tilt 1st hit in close range before the 2nd hit comes out.

If you're at a kill percent and D-throw, a lot of Snakes will probably try to tech in place and bet on a U-tilt kill. I'm pretty certain you can't Smash them before they can U-tilt you. Just stick to a tilt or dash attack if he tries that.

Alphicans · May 11, 2010

It's not that the m/u has changed, it's just that it has always been wrong.

A2ZOMG · May 11, 2010

Oh yeah and DDD matchup.

Chances are NOBODY plays it correctly, and I am including UTD Zac and myself as well when I say NOBODY.

At the very least, a lot of us could definitely be doing a LOT better on BF and neutrals in general. I played Junk's D3, and I think he will agree with me when I say that D-tilt platform shenanigans are GODLY against D3. It walls the hell out of virtually everything he does. His best attacks for beating it are easy to see coming, which are <100% ledge attack, and idk F-air basically lol. It outprioritizes his B-air like 90% of the time as well.

Yeah and as I recall, we all forget to use Chef in the matchup. Otherwise really the only reason you'll ever lose this matchup is if you get impatient with kills, since he pretty much has to punish a mistake to actually KO you.

Browny · May 11, 2010

A2ZOMG said:
Stuff about matchups

This is hilarious coming from a WI-FI G&W player

that is all

A2ZOMG · May 11, 2010

You know what's even funnier? I have not played wifi for a really long time. Specifically I haven't used G&W on wifi, because he's terrible on wifi.

PentaSalia · May 11, 2010

sorry,i must disagree on BF being a **** stage against DDD.

Although it is easy once you get DDD offstage on BF,no DDD is going to let you do that easily lol.

The last good DDD i played was on wifi vs atmosk
first match went on BF. He hid under the platform and timed his ftilts so i couldn't do any SH aerials against him. If i didn't approach at all,he'd throw waddles,approach a bit, and ftilt.

So ya,the next obvious option would be,full hop bairs( or a grab if you're lucky enough to PS his ftilt)
but this is risky since DDD can easily grab you out of it. You have to really know how to space your bairs here or he can throw you offstage and then the tables are turned lol. So ya,you can be patient but so can DDD lol,and projectiles>no projectiles. (Note im not saying bair isn't reliable here, it's very good against DDD lol)

TBH,id prefer to play DDD on SV.

Though BF is still a great stage against DDD but if the person your playing is patient enough,he will hide under the platforms.

~ Gheb ~ · May 11, 2010

Olimar is a really bad match-up fpr G&W

A2ZOMG · May 11, 2010

Olimar isn't terrible for G&W at all. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if G&W eventually won the matchup, since he has the tools to get in pretty easily and destroy.

Play a waiting game with D-tilt and N-air walls, stage control, SH N-air poke him which is safe on block, also he isn't exactly guaranteed to shieldgrab you out of B-air/N-air. It's possible to spotdodge it, and considering how slow his grab is, you might as well be able to spotdodge it on reaction, and if you spotdodge it, you can get a free grab. Realistically as long as you remain patient and exert good stage control, Olimar's pivot grab should be more of a threat as opposed to a tool that should be actually hitting you.

Grabbing Olimar is = free ****, and G&W destroys him offstage easily.

Hylian · May 11, 2010

Having played almost every olimar in the nation save like..hilt I'm going to have to disagree with you lol. Olimar is bad for GW. You can't play a waiting game, he can always force you to approach and punish all of your approaches. He's not going to be blocking nair he's going to be grabbing you out of it. And all your other moves lol. Dtilt is GW's only saving grace and if you can get olimar in the air it's easy(though if they are good with whistle it can be a pain) and he's easy to edgeguard, but if they know how to stay centered and have good stage control there isn't much you can do :/.

A2ZOMG · May 11, 2010

And last time I checked, SH N-air does go over his grab. So yeah he should be blocking it.

Penta vs DDD, so like if he's F-titling, you can powershield that if you're in range.

And still, D-tilt walls the HELL out of DDD on BF. Sit on the platform and D-tilt and like he can't approach past it lol.

Vinnie · May 11, 2010

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ie0Tjq3Rxj0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yl1nBSaLl6k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsMGNUWWjUw&feature=related

lain · May 11, 2010

Pikachu beats G&W 60:40. Sorry guys.

PentaSalia · May 11, 2010

funny guy ^

Today · May 11, 2010

Hylian said:
Having played almost every olimar in the nation save like..hilt I'm going to have to disagree with you lol. Olimar is bad for GW. You can't play a waiting game, he can always force you to approach and punish all of your approaches. He's not going to be blocking nair he's going to be grabbing you out of it. And all your other moves lol. Dtilt is GW's only saving grace and if you can get olimar in the air it's easy(though if they are good with whistle it can be a pain) and he's easy to edgeguard, but if they know how to stay centered and have good stage control there isn't much you can do :/.

This. It's most definitely in Olimar's favor. I'd say 55:45 at least.

I'm thinking we should go ahead and work with Olimar and D3 since that's being the most currently discussed at the moment. I'll have the Olimar up tonight.

Today · May 11, 2010

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=274545

Olimar is up. Let's discuss!

New Game and Watch Matchup Thread!! Currently: Ice Climbers

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