Matchup Re-Discussion (2010 edition): Snake

KayLo! · May 11, 2010

Zelda vs. Snake
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 30:70 in Snake's favor

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234054
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 30:70 in Snake's favor, no thread available.

Zelda Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082
Snake Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258332

Summary:

In progress.

MrEh · May 11, 2010

Don't try to counter camp. If you get into a camping war, you'll lose. Run at him, but stay out of ftilt range. Punish his mistakes, get him offstage.

Again, you know a matchup is bad when you have to rely on your opponent's mistakes to win.

KayLo! · May 11, 2010

Autocanceled nair is the best approach we have on Snake imo, apart from pshielding and punishing stupid mistakes with dash attacks and grabs. His ftilt will frustrate you since it > Zelda, but you can SHAD (or roll or whatever) behind him if he gets too happy with throwing it out every time you get remotely close.

After you get behind him a time or two, he'll start mixing in pivot grabs and reverse ground moves, and then you're ****ed.

Snake definitely outcamps us and makes it impossible to approach, but if you can get him into the air or offstage, that's where you'll rack up a ton of damage..... either by juggling or punishing his landings/ledge options. Just watch out for explosives, which he'll try to use to cover himself (wavebounced nades, dropping C4s on your head, etc.).

Also, this is really obvious, but KEEP TRACK OF HIS EXPLOSIVES, especially on dark or transforming stages like Lylat, PS1, or CS. Forgetfulness (or blindness

) will kill you.

MrEh · May 11, 2010

I can't see the explosives on FD sometimes because I'm blind.

Not as bad as sniperworm though. He can't see the C4 or mines like, ever.

KayLo! · May 11, 2010

Neither can I, lol. I'm uploading a match of me vs. my crewmate's Snake, and iirc I die by C4 every stock...... because I just didn't see them at all. x.x

So, yeah, double emphasis on keeping track of that ****.

JigglyZelda003 · May 12, 2010

despite the C4 disappearing on FD sometimes i find thats the best neutral to fight Snake on. I don't like fighting him on BF because i think he can get too much grenade control on the platforms.

If attempting a Dair on his clyfer do we have to time it on the clypher or Snakes actual body? cause im still unsure where i should be aiming at more.

GodAtHand · May 12, 2010

Aim for Snake's body. I've sweet spotted the cypher before and all that will happen is Zelda will freeze... and you will be sad. I typically aim for his feet... I don't know why I just get more success that way.

Mikey Lenetia · May 16, 2010

If you DO find yourself in a situation where you're using Din's, which is already not that great of a situation, but I find a change of target with it always helps. Instead of aiming for Snake himself, I always found it was less dire when I specifically targeted his grenades. Sometimes you'll deal a lot of shield damage, stop the grenade in a neutral position, or the ideal of blowing up the grenade in Snake's hand. It isn't reliable, but it's better than repeatedly doing the same thing, and can even bait a hasty dacus from Snake we can punish. Just don't ALWAYS do this, or you'll be heavily punished, yourself.

If it is possible while recovering, try to always keep your recovery angles as varied as you can. This will help prevent things such as getting fsmashed, due to our awful recovery from Farore's, and getting ledgehogged if we happen to go for the ledge. It's still not a good situation, but Snake commonly won't chase us off the stage too much.

HylianMageAuree · May 16, 2010

Luckily for us, with proper DI we won't need to resort to Farore's Wind as a means of recovery here, as most of his attacks send you in a either upward or diagonal trajectory (unless you have really bad DI).

Funnily, a move I find myself frequently having troubles with is his Nair (lol).
It just ***** my shield and I can never seem to punish it with the enormous shield pushback the move exerts. Is it possible to spotdodge the last hit OoS, then punish his land with something fast (Dsmash)? Or are we at a frame disadvantage for spotdoges OoS ._.

KayLo! · May 16, 2010

His nair? Pretty sure you can dash attack it OOS. Maybe usmash too, but I'm not 100% sure. There's definitely too much shield push to dsmash.

I played this MU a lot at Players Bowl yesterday, but only in friendlies where they weren't camping as much as they could (until they were losing last stock, rofl). Without too many projectiles, Snake's really not that bad...... but once he gets his camp game on, it's absolute butt.

Nair is a godsend in this match, but only if his shield's worn down a bit, either by Din's or jab or rising nairs (which are relatively safe, at least compared to the other stuff we can do). It doesn't seem to take much for nair to successfully poke.

30:70 sounds about right. Inviting the Snakes!

HylianMageAuree · May 16, 2010

KayLo! said:
His nair? Pretty sure you can dash attack it OOS. Maybe usmash too, but I'm not 100% sure. There's definitely too much shield push to dsmash.

I played this MU a lot at Players Bowl yesterday, but only in friendlies where they weren't camping as much as they could (until they were losing last stock, rofl). Without too many projectiles, Snake's really not that bad...... but once he gets his camp game on, it's absolute butt.

Nair is a godsend in this match, but only if his shield's worn down a bit, either by Din's or jab or rising nairs (which are relatively safe, at least compared to the other stuff we can do). It doesn't seem to take much for nair to successfully poke.

30:70 sounds about right. Inviting the Snakes!

Rising Nair? Wouldn't he be able to punish that with Utilt OoS? O-O
But yeah, Nair is pretty useful here. And I agree on the match-up ratio, lol.

KayLo! · May 17, 2010

Not if it's a FH nair..... Zelda's got some ups lol.

HylianMageAuree · May 18, 2010

Meh, theoretically, I don't really know this match-up too well.
All I can say is that I've been able to short-hop and Fair into a sweet spot OoS on his Ftilt at times. O.O I don't know exactly how and when but I suppose it's once he gets into his stand-up motion (might also be a late shielding reaction on his part). Dsmash works with poorly spaced Ftilts, but it's pretty hard for me to punish the properly spaced ones in general (I always get punished by a 2nd Ftilt when I try other stuff, including Dash Attack OoS).

Kataefi · May 18, 2010

good thread!

ftilt is such a big problem. sometimes the leanback from fsmash can avoid some hits. I just shield and... run away =D

also I agree that stage colour really messes up my ability to track those nades - brinstar is a nightmare, even if the lava is fun.

MrEh · May 18, 2010

Abusing the drawback on Zelda's Fsmash is only viable if you use empty Fsmashes and hope that Snake swings into the sparkles. It's not a trade that's worth it.

OverLade · May 19, 2010

I'm surprised Ed hasn't posted in here, I play with him all the time and he knows the matchup really well. I guess I'll throw in some insight.

Imo the fight on the ground isn't that bad for Zelda as her moves have little startup time and mixup game is really important. Snake outcamps Zelda really badly though and if you play with explosives and run away getting inside is difficult.

Snake has some really sick edguards on Zelda as well. If she misDI's anything and ends up parrallel with or even with the blastzone you can edgehog, watch for a potential stage spike attack/ect, and when she UpBs, get up and get a free Dair. You can also set up C4s and fully charged mines to do the same thing. This alone imo is what makes the matchup TERRIBLE for Zelda. Snake camping and running away on a flat stage is bad enough but having guaranteed setups for moves that will kill at 90% pretty much seals it.

#HBC | Scary · May 19, 2010

RedHalberd said:
I'm surprised Ed hasn't posted in here, I play with him all the time and he knows the matchup really well. I guess I'll throw in some insight.

Imo the fight on the ground isn't that bad for Zelda as her moves have little startup time and mixup game is really important. Snake outcamps Zelda really badly though and if you play with explosives and run away getting inside is difficult.

Snake has some really sick edguards on Zelda as well. If she misDI's anything and ends up parrallel with or even with the blastzone you can edgehog, watch for a potential stage spike attack/ect, and when she UpBs, get up and get a free Dair. You can also set up C4s and fully charged mines to do the same thing. This alone imo is what makes the matchup TERRIBLE for Zelda. Snake camping and running away on a flat stage is bad enough but having guaranteed setups for moves that will kill at 90% pretty much seals it.

Sadly, he's right

The trick is to stay on the stage and take the fight to him. The moment you have to recover, everything sucks because Snake can cover just about every option you can do. If you don't sweetspot the ledge while he's not covering it, you eat a whole bag of ****. It's nasty!!

Fsmash outranges everything he can do, and it's somewhat like Bowser in which she can dodge an attack with her windup. But, he will still hit you, and it'll hurt because he is Snake. Ftilt also outranges him but it won't be often when you connect with this.

KayLo! · May 19, 2010

ScaryLB59 said:
Fsmash outranges everything he can do, and it's somewhat like Bowser in which she can dodge an attack with her windup.

Pretty sure his ftilt outreaches our fsmash (outside of technical "range")..... sounds REALLY dumb, but I think that's the case, plus it's much, much faster.

I still do well enough using fsmash to cover his ftilt overextensions, and the drawback on the charge does come in handy sometimes...... but if you're standing fsmash distance away from Snake and you both input at the same time, he'll hit you -- and way sooner. Invisible knee bull****. To hit him, he basically has to ftilt into your fsmash, as MrEh mentioned earlier I believe.

Alsoomghispivotgrab. Its range makes me want to beat up small children.

#HBC | Scary · May 19, 2010

Agreed about his pivot grab.......grrr.

HylianMageAuree · May 20, 2010

Honestly though (I repeat), what is Snake going to use to send us that far offstage (in a low diagonal to horizontal trajectory)? With proper DI I don't think we're going to have to resort to Farore's that often lol. I know, pretty dumb question but then again I suck at this match-up (theoretically). I just sort of play it on feeling lol.

MrEh · May 20, 2010

Snake has nothing that sends you that low.

That being said, there's always a chance (a certainty really) that Snake will knock you offstage without a jump or he will force you to use it. Farore's Wind is just bad. Downplaying its terribleness by hoping that you'll never have to use it won't get you anywhere. It's a recovery move; you have to use it. You can't rely only on your jumps to make it back onstage.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 21, 2010

Snake is Zelda's worst match up.

#HBC | Scary · May 21, 2010

You know, I may agree. I recently played some Olimars and beat 'em up.

If a Snake doesn't expect it after he down throws ya, you can pop up and buffer Nayru's. He'll either shield you and regrab or it'll mess him up.

Here's food for thought, if they don't cook nades, why not take a chance and glidetoss back at him. Our glidetoss is glorious and maybe it can lead into something. Just throwin' it out there because this MU actually sucks kinda bad. However, Utilt, aerials, explosives and DI mistakes should be the only things killing ya lol. That's all.

KayLo! · May 21, 2010

Dthrow isn't much of a problem as long as you stay unpredictable..... it's harder for Snake to tech chase Zelda compared to other characters since her tech roll is crazy long. If I do stand up, I tend to utilt the first time, especially for the kill...... I've yet to play a Snake that predicted it the first time I did it. =X

All Snakes cook nades. ;; Glide tossing's a neat trick, but the risk isn't worth the reward imo. (Maybe I should try it more. x.o)

I do like Naryu's in this MU more than others, though..... Snakes seem to like to roll/spotdodge a lot, and it can fling them off-stage at an awkward angle.

HylianMageAuree · May 21, 2010

MrEh said:
Snake has nothing that sends you that low.

That being said, there's always a chance (a certainty really) that Snake will knock you offstage without a jump or he will force you to use it. Farore's Wind is just bad. Downplaying its terribleness by hoping that you'll never have to use it won't get you anywhere. It's a recovery move; you have to use it. You can't rely only on your jumps to make it back onstage.

I was never implying that we wouldn't need it at all or anything, I was just stating that its overall usage to recover is not needed as much as in other (bad) match-ups.

KayLo! said:
I do like Naryu's in this MU more than others, though..... Snakes seem to like to roll/spotdodge a lot, and it can fling them off-stage at an awkward angle.

This is true : 3

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 21, 2010

you can Nayru's the Up smash and it will blow him up....

Veggie123 · May 22, 2010

yeah, snake players seem to like to spotdodge a lot. i feel like i can land a shorthop fair easier on snake than most characters. just by feigning an empty jump, waiting for the spotdodge, and then boom!

and also seconded that dthrow tech chase isn't really a huge threat. i'm sure that most reliable thing they can do after it is probably their dash attack or something. (though that's still kind of annoying actually)

GodAtHand · May 22, 2010

Riot's Notes on Snakes Dthrow:

It's not too much of a threat if he grabs you in the middle of the stage and uses it, but if it's near the edge it can cause problems since you will have less space to roll away. When there are no edges around he will basically have to predict where you are going. Keep your controller hidden during this matchup some snake mains have been known to look at your controller when you are going to get up in order to better chain throw you... Sometimes just standing up and either upsmashing or uptilting can really screw them over, Upsmash shield pokes if they are too close, and uptilt is usually so slow that they stop blocking before its over and get hit.

MrEh · May 23, 2010

Anyone who actively tries to tech chase Zelda with Snake's Dthrow is doing it wrong. They'd have to be blind not to notice Zelda's demonic roll.

I'd be more worried about his other throws really.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 24, 2010

how do you punish his ftilt and utilt ?

MrEh · May 24, 2010

Ftilt? You don't.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 24, 2010

So I should start learning sheik then huh? Or does that not even matteR?

MrEh · May 24, 2010

Sure why not?

She's better then Zelda anyway.

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 24, 2010

MrEh said:
Sure why not?

She's better then Zelda anyway.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to learn sheik.

clowsui · May 24, 2010

sheik in this matchup has a way easier time imo...i don't play zelda much so i probably shouldn't be posting in here but on first glance her lesser mobility on the ground + her "meh"/horrible (forget how good/bad it is lol) makes it difficult for her to get past snake nade camping and pressing the advantage on snake

sheik on the other hand is really fast and has jump heights that are for some reason perfect for abusing juggle/ledge trap vs. snake...you'll still have killing issues but the matchup turns 55:45-60:40 from 70:30 (both cases snake favor)

AlMoStLeGeNdArY · May 25, 2010

clowsui said:
sheik in this matchup has a way easier time imo...i don't play zelda much so i probably shouldn't be posting in here but on first glance her lesser mobility on the ground + her "meh"/horrible (forget how good/bad it is lol) makes it difficult for her to get past snake nade camping and pressing the advantage on snake

sheik on the other hand is really fast and has jump heights that are for some reason perfect for abusing juggle/ledge trap vs. snake...you'll still have killing issues but the matchup turns 55:45-60:40 from 70:30 (both cases snake favor)

What do you name search sheik or something? LoL Are you saying the magic is 55:45/60:40 for Snake against sheik as opposed to 70:30 snake vs Zelda? Have you used a combo of Zelda and Sheik during the match or just sheik?

Also just to be clear Zelda has no way of punishing snakes ftilt ?

#HBC | Scary · May 25, 2010

If you PS at least one hit of Ftilt, you can hit with whatever you want, my choice to that is definitely Bair OOS. It is certainly punishable though.

MrEh · May 25, 2010

ScaryLB59 said:
If you PS at least one hit of Ftilt, you can hit with whatever you want, my choice to that is definitely Bair OOS.

Assuming that your BACK is toward Snake when you powershield his Ftilt. And he's not spacing.

So yeah. If you ever find yourself powershielding a poorly spaced Ftilt with your back towards Snake for some reason, go nuts.

clowsui · May 25, 2010

AlMoStLeGeNdArY said:
What do you name search sheik or something? LoL Are you saying the magic is 55:45/60:40 for Snake against sheik as opposed to 70:30 snake vs Zelda? Have you used a combo of Zelda and Sheik during the match or just sheik?

Also just to be clear Zelda has no way of punishing snakes ftilt ?

no i just decided to look in here randomly xD
i just realized i forgot to put air mobility after "meh"/horrible
anyways
i'm saying that 55:45/60:40 snake favor, sheik only...closer to 6:4 if you decide to use zelda with sheik imo
having killing power doesn't change the fact that getting those opportunities to kill snake with zelda seems absurdly difficult >__>
i've played infern a few times using sheik and sheik/zelda combo...sheik i got 1 stocked by his snake (sandbags in friendlies tho); with sheik+zelda it was something like 2 stock high percent.
eh i think zelda does have a way of punishing snake ftilt, though snake has mixup on ftilt so it's probably just best to reset the situation by rolling away? idk how zelda would deal with that, that's another large issue in my head that i don't see being resolved cause sheik's roll away is faster than zelda's iirc + i think if sheik powershields ftilt she can do an ftilt of her own

#HBC | Scary · May 25, 2010

MrEh said:
Assuming that your BACK is toward Snake when you powershield his Ftilt. And he's not spacing.

So yeah. If you ever find yourself powershielding a poorly spaced Ftilt with your back towards Snake for some reason, go nuts.

I feel like it really isn't that hard to buffer a Bair from a front position lol.

As far as Sheik in this MU, you can juggle, and rack damage but if you can kill than you can't kill. Now back to Zelda.

Have we started considering stages?

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