This thread for discussion of the matchup against Kirby.
Just making this thread to keep things where they belong.
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Sheik Matchup Discussion: Kirby
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
This thread for discussion of the matchup against Kirby.
Just making this thread to keep things where they belong.
FrozenFire13
Smash Ace
Match-up sucks
....That was easy 
Variable
Smash Ace
Are we posting here yet?Match-up sucks
....That was easy
clowsui
Smash Legend
You can't combo Kirby without being smacked around for trying
Your zoning is destroyed by the fact that his bair points directly at the spot where yours can't reach
He's GREAT at juggling
His forward smash is ridiculous
He has a ******* good throw combo on you
His up tilt puts Sheik in a horrible position...
I could go on and on about this
Your zoning is destroyed by the fact that his bair points directly at the spot where yours can't reach
He's GREAT at juggling
His forward smash is ridiculous
He has a ******* good throw combo on you
His up tilt puts Sheik in a horrible position...
I could go on and on about this
I don't think I've ever beaten a real Kirby player with Sheik.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Now I'm happy MLG came around. ChuDat exp! Kirby is kinda ugly for Sheik. What's worse is that he's ugly for Zelda as well. Utilt is bad, period. Ftilt from Kirby is also bad. I'll get on this more later, I'm tired lol
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
^^^^^
just no
just no
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I got to play him (his ZSS)!
Anyway, Kirby is strange. The worst thing that could happen is when you grab the ledge and try to get back on stage. He can wall you do well with bair and ftilt. It was already mentioned but you cannot combo him well; however, our utilt is a great tool in this MU. I feel like it beats his aerials solidly as long as you time it up. Would anyone like to check me on that?
Anyway, Kirby is strange. The worst thing that could happen is when you grab the ledge and try to get back on stage. He can wall you do well with bair and ftilt. It was already mentioned but you cannot combo him well; however, our utilt is a great tool in this MU. I feel like it beats his aerials solidly as long as you time it up. Would anyone like to check me on that?
Variable
Smash Ace
I really don't think that this MU is as bad as everyone is saying. We don't have much against Kirby in this MU, we just have to play smart. Kirby shuts down a lot of tools that Sheik has... He can duck needles, and we can't combo as well as other characters. One thing we do have though, is that sheik is a lot faster than kirby. Sheik has faster arieals and ground attacks. Since you're going to approach, I would just try to keep the pressure on with a combination of moves and try to be less-predictable as possible. Just change it up and make it hard for kirby to get you off of the map, and hard for you to get grabbed.. If either of these happen kirby will take control of the match, and one of these will most likely lead to another.
Don't be afraid to camp, but kirby is better at it.
I'd play Kirby on BF if he doesn't ban it.. It's good for numerous approaches with the platforms and it's easy to change up your moves without being predictable.. YI, or SV would be second and third choices.
Ban FD, He'll shut you down here, and once he gets the advantage it's tough to come-back.
Don't be afraid to camp, but kirby is better at it.
I'd play Kirby on BF if he doesn't ban it.. It's good for numerous approaches with the platforms and it's easy to change up your moves without being predictable.. YI, or SV would be second and third choices.
Ban FD, He'll shut you down here, and once he gets the advantage it's tough to come-back.
Don't edgeguard us, or we'll try and sneak an inhale in there... You don't want an inhale>footstool(>dair>footstool) experience with people watching. : |
I don't seem to have much trouble against Sheiks, either... But just to help out: always have needles ready, footstool us when we're recovering from low, surprise fair us if you know we can't inhale, and time your aerials so that you can hit us when our hitboxes disappear before we throw out another aerial. Utilt, I don't think it'll help you guys. Kirby also likes to run in and shieldgrab people a lot, and your utilt doesn't have enough knockback to be safe against shields. We can space you on the ground with ftilt and dtilt, and as you know, dtilt trips, so when you trip it's now a techchase scenario, where we'll have to guess how and where you're gonna get up so we can sneak a grab in there and take the fight to the air, where we can juggle you then.
Always have needles ready to punish us, damage is damage. And don't be afraid to try DACUSing while we're landing, if you have the timing down perfectly. As with other characters, Kirby is vulnerable while landing, and we won't be throwing out attacks whenever we land, only when you're near or being predictable with your approaches (if your losing).
Pivot grab us if we're approaching from the ground. With your better ground mobility this shouldn't be too hard. It should be your answer to our grab game and ground game most of the time, and if we start spacing ftilts, thats when you use needles to punish us... When you pivot grab, your range increases, making it possible to grab us out of our chosen options like tilts, shieldgrabs and (on a less likely scenario but real nonetheless,) dash attacks.
If you're forced to land near Kirby and you KNOW that fsmash is gonna come and take our stock from you, learn to stop airdodging and trying to shield once you hit the ground: it never works, ever. Instead, learn how to footstool in a pinch and footstool Kirby, then fall somewhere safe/dair us right after if we threw out an fsmash. All about reading and punishing!
Don't know what else to add.
Stages, riiiight... Well seeing as platforms are Sheik's forte, I'd guess you should aim for the stages with less hazards and most platforms (like BF). But a kind warning: Kirby enjoys these stages too, so the advantage goes both ways.
I don't seem to have much trouble against Sheiks, either... But just to help out: always have needles ready, footstool us when we're recovering from low, surprise fair us if you know we can't inhale, and time your aerials so that you can hit us when our hitboxes disappear before we throw out another aerial. Utilt, I don't think it'll help you guys. Kirby also likes to run in and shieldgrab people a lot, and your utilt doesn't have enough knockback to be safe against shields. We can space you on the ground with ftilt and dtilt, and as you know, dtilt trips, so when you trip it's now a techchase scenario, where we'll have to guess how and where you're gonna get up so we can sneak a grab in there and take the fight to the air, where we can juggle you then.
Always have needles ready to punish us, damage is damage. And don't be afraid to try DACUSing while we're landing, if you have the timing down perfectly. As with other characters, Kirby is vulnerable while landing, and we won't be throwing out attacks whenever we land, only when you're near or being predictable with your approaches (if your losing).
Pivot grab us if we're approaching from the ground. With your better ground mobility this shouldn't be too hard. It should be your answer to our grab game and ground game most of the time, and if we start spacing ftilts, thats when you use needles to punish us... When you pivot grab, your range increases, making it possible to grab us out of our chosen options like tilts, shieldgrabs and (on a less likely scenario but real nonetheless,) dash attacks.
If you're forced to land near Kirby and you KNOW that fsmash is gonna come and take our stock from you, learn to stop airdodging and trying to shield once you hit the ground: it never works, ever. Instead, learn how to footstool in a pinch and footstool Kirby, then fall somewhere safe/dair us right after if we threw out an fsmash. All about reading and punishing!
Don't know what else to add.
Stages, riiiight... Well seeing as platforms are Sheik's forte, I'd guess you should aim for the stages with less hazards and most platforms (like BF). But a kind warning: Kirby enjoys these stages too, so the advantage goes both ways.
I don't understand your assessment of matchups.
Generally if you've got no tricks, no outs, and no advantages, it's known as a bad matchup.
Variable
Smash Ace
It is a bad MU.
I said it isn't AS bad as some are saying. Kirby does shut down a lot of Sheiks tools, but It's not hopeless.
BBQTV
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,000
You know, I might be wrong, but an "MK vs Sheik" video doesn't belong in the Kirby MU discussion thread.
BBQTV
Smash Master
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who cares, its awesomeYou know, I might be wrong, but an "MK vs Sheik" video doesn't belong in the Kirby MU discussion thread.
Variable
Smash Ace
It was a good video, but we should be more on topic in a MU thread.
FrozenFire13
Smash Ace
Tewx2
Smash Ace
Since most of what Sheik doesn't work vs Kirby... like at all... I play it with the intention of timing them out from the character selection screen. Take as many light combos u can get, but never chase.
Use Needles if Kirby is on the ground
Dash attack as a punish for anything punishable that Kirby might do
Dash grab as a punish for Kirby landing( Dash attack also works)
Don't DACUS... It's not safe and odds are you wont get either the tipper or the second hit in the attack in either, so its really just a dangerous way to tack on 12 percent
No getting around it, this MU is bad. Sheik has a definite disadvantage. Your most powerful tool in this MU is patience.
Use Needles if Kirby is on the ground
Dash attack as a punish for anything punishable that Kirby might do
Dash grab as a punish for Kirby landing( Dash attack also works)
Don't DACUS... It's not safe and odds are you wont get either the tipper or the second hit in the attack in either, so its really just a dangerous way to tack on 12 percent
No getting around it, this MU is bad. Sheik has a definite disadvantage. Your most powerful tool in this MU is patience.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
I agree with you when it comes to patience. I do not thing you can reliably time them out though.
Variable
Smash Ace
Yeah You can go for it, but it won't happen much.
#HBC | Scary
Hype Incarnate
Welp, I'm no good at timing anyone out lol.
I'd have to ask James on this one and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but how is our Bair vs. Their Bair?
Something I recommend, Kirby with needles is bad. Very bad.
I'd have to ask James on this one and I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but how is our Bair vs. Their Bair?
Something I recommend, Kirby with needles is bad. Very bad.
I have a few friends that have mained Kirby, and the Utilt is one of the more effective moves to break Kirby combos and go into one of mine. You have to be very patient and defensive with this MU.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Kewkky said basically everything for the Kirby side but I'll add or rephrase a few things...
Needles, like he said, are great for Sheik. Use them to punish a ground approach, landing, recovery, or camping.
If a Kirbicide occurs (my favorite thing to do), you'll lose the stop because when an inhale break happens Sheik goes under Kirby and will get footstooled.
Fight against an inhale onstage because if Kirby gets needles it breaks this matchup. In the same way as Kirby vs. Snake, once we get that projectile we can use it better than the original to camp and aircamp.
Ps1, Battlefield and FD are Kirby stages (also RC but that's a no-brainer).
Needles, like he said, are great for Sheik. Use them to punish a ground approach, landing, recovery, or camping.
If a Kirbicide occurs (my favorite thing to do), you'll lose the stop because when an inhale break happens Sheik goes under Kirby and will get footstooled.
Fight against an inhale onstage because if Kirby gets needles it breaks this matchup. In the same way as Kirby vs. Snake, once we get that projectile we can use it better than the original to camp and aircamp.
Ps1, Battlefield and FD are Kirby stages (also RC but that's a no-brainer).
Saying that pretty much nulls the whole "MU Discussion" thing. It's the Sheik vs Kirby discussion, so we're supposed to talk about what they can do as Sheik to win. Saying "use another character" pretty much throws MUs out the window, since we can all just change to whatever character we know will win that's easy to learn and use.
BBQTV
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,000
this mu is just that bad so they dont have much choice
The best thing you can do is just practice the hell out of a bad MU so you know what to expect. That way, you at least know how to counter "what" with "what".
Tewx2
Smash Ace
We also can't reliably fight Kirby either, I didn't mean to sound like timing out Kirby is Sheik's saving grace in this MU, it really isn't. However, in the absence of a safe approach, the smartest thing to do is run away.
If you have no relevant contributions then I suggest you simply stop posting here.
Variable
Smash Ace
riocosta123
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 437
Hmm, I actually feel quite comfortable in this match up. The last Kirby I faced in tournament was t1mmy's, which I beat. I believe the biggest key to this match up is to always stay in the long-midrange zone and to take advantage of Kirby's awful air speed.
As, one of the Kirby mains said, always keep needles around. The reason being is that if Kirby starts a wall of bairs you can easily punish him if he's low enough (because bair lasts so long) or when he lands. All of Kirby's aerials last a fairly long time so I found the ideal strategy was to bait him in the midrange.
None of his aerials have a ridiculous amount of range so you can actually calmly walk in and out of the zone if need be (I think this is one case where I was walking a lot more than I was running). Because he hangs so long in the air I also was able to clip him with the second hit of u-tilt a lot (get used to doing this, this strategy is good against a lot of characters) and time a couple of dacuses in between his bairs (when he was walling) to kill him. To be honest, I don't think Kirby's approach options are that great, they're just very painful if they connect.
For the love of god, learn the range of his d-tilt (which trips and goes into fsmash), and fsmash. I don't think I got hit by a single forward smash in my match against t1mmy.
Overall, I feel like Kirby has the same strengths and weaknesses as MK (except for the chaingrab), just not to the same degree due to being a little slower, not having a lot of disjointed hitboxes, and fairly deliberate ko options (bair is usually hella stale if you have good di). Not saying it's Sheik advantage, but I don't think it's the worst thing either. It does require a very defensive mindset though.
Then again, I suck against Olimar so I'm dumb.
As, one of the Kirby mains said, always keep needles around. The reason being is that if Kirby starts a wall of bairs you can easily punish him if he's low enough (because bair lasts so long) or when he lands. All of Kirby's aerials last a fairly long time so I found the ideal strategy was to bait him in the midrange.
None of his aerials have a ridiculous amount of range so you can actually calmly walk in and out of the zone if need be (I think this is one case where I was walking a lot more than I was running). Because he hangs so long in the air I also was able to clip him with the second hit of u-tilt a lot (get used to doing this, this strategy is good against a lot of characters) and time a couple of dacuses in between his bairs (when he was walling) to kill him. To be honest, I don't think Kirby's approach options are that great, they're just very painful if they connect.
For the love of god, learn the range of his d-tilt (which trips and goes into fsmash), and fsmash. I don't think I got hit by a single forward smash in my match against t1mmy.
Overall, I feel like Kirby has the same strengths and weaknesses as MK (except for the chaingrab), just not to the same degree due to being a little slower, not having a lot of disjointed hitboxes, and fairly deliberate ko options (bair is usually hella stale if you have good di). Not saying it's Sheik advantage, but I don't think it's the worst thing either. It does require a very defensive mindset though.
Then again, I suck against Olimar so I'm dumb.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Huh very very interesting input ill try some of ur ideas out. I think it is very similar to the Mk MU only a few key differences.
Needle camping MK is a lil easier cause hes slower in the air and he cant duck under our needles. Kirby kills us hella early is we screw up and we dont get all the really good grab garbage and kill setups on kirby that we don on MK. Other than that tho yea ur right.
riocosta123
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 437
I think once you realize how long his moves last it's just a matter of getting the timing down. Once you do that you can start to fit hyphen smashes/dacuses in there As far as killing goes, this is one of those matches where both us are going to live pretty long if you play gay enough. Kirby's Bair is strong but you can DI it an incredible amount. In general most of Kirby's move kill horizontally, so it makes it easier to anticipate DI.
I guess since this is a Sheik only board transforming is banned, but if you have a fair % lead why not do it? I don't think Kirby has too many safe options in that scenario.
I guess since this is a Sheik only board transforming is banned, but if you have a fair % lead why not do it? I don't think Kirby has too many safe options in that scenario.
Dtilt doesn't combo into fsmash, just so you know. If you SDI the dtilt hit and trip farther away, there's a very good chance the fsmash won't reach you. It's sort of a 'gimmick' which people tend to forget. If you're always on the move and paying attention, once you're in our dtilt range, make sure to be ready to SDI whenever possible.
Getting Kirby off the air doesn't seem like a real hard feat for Sheik, she's fast on the ground and has a projectile. I personally think it's when he balances both aerial and ground games evenly that he becomes really annoying, and gets harder to outplay. Pretty much the same as MK, since you can just swat him away with a fast fair/uair/bair if he spends his like on the air, but gets harder if he balances both. And yeah, you play it pretty much the same way as MK, except some key differences, like both posters have said above me (you're safer offstage, we kill faster, no grab shenanigans, we have a 0>death in case you make a mistake close to a ledge, we have no spammable transcendent disjoints, we're less vulnerable to needles overall, we're slower on the ground but faster in the air, etc...). Our playstyle is fairly similar though, just watch out for those gimping scenarios and it'll just be a normal disadvantage MU.
As for transforming... I'd recommend you guys to not do it. Zelda's way easier to hit than Sheik since she's slower everywhere, and she's MUCH more punishable than Zelda. The Kirby boards put her as a disadvantage before, but it's been quite a long time since we last discussed her, and I have to say that she is not a threat to us at all... What we don't like is fast characters with projectiles/long disjoints, so you're better off staying as Sheik.
Getting Kirby off the air doesn't seem like a real hard feat for Sheik, she's fast on the ground and has a projectile. I personally think it's when he balances both aerial and ground games evenly that he becomes really annoying, and gets harder to outplay. Pretty much the same as MK, since you can just swat him away with a fast fair/uair/bair if he spends his like on the air, but gets harder if he balances both. And yeah, you play it pretty much the same way as MK, except some key differences, like both posters have said above me (you're safer offstage, we kill faster, no grab shenanigans, we have a 0>death in case you make a mistake close to a ledge, we have no spammable transcendent disjoints, we're less vulnerable to needles overall, we're slower on the ground but faster in the air, etc...). Our playstyle is fairly similar though, just watch out for those gimping scenarios and it'll just be a normal disadvantage MU.
As for transforming... I'd recommend you guys to not do it. Zelda's way easier to hit than Sheik since she's slower everywhere, and she's MUCH more punishable than Zelda. The Kirby boards put her as a disadvantage before, but it's been quite a long time since we last discussed her, and I have to say that she is not a threat to us at all... What we don't like is fast characters with projectiles/long disjoints, so you're better off staying as Sheik.