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Tier Wars - an alternative ruleset

Crow!

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TIER WARS
May the best player win
by scoring more points each game than anyone else
by winning more often and with lower tier characters than his opponents can

--------
Introduction

Does Samus have a slight advantage over Bowser, or does she crush him?
Who is better at Wolf dittos, you or your opponent?
Does Zelda really have a decent matchup vs R.O.B.?

Under the traditional double elimination with counterpicking format Smash players have grown accustomed to, the correct, competitively relevant answers to the above questions are all the same:
Who cares?

The traditional ruleset does a good job at determining which player can maximize his chances of winning each game. However, in doing so it completely removes from competitive importance somewhere between 80% and 90% of the character matchups that Brawl provides.


Tier Wars is an alternative ruleset designed to do the following:

- Give players a competitive incentive to learn every matchup in the game, not just high/top tier vs high/top tier and (for the occasional side event) low tier vs low tier.

- Allow players to strategically balance their risk / reward level each game, allowing everyone to either show off or to play it safe.

- Be fair, and be fun!


I first posted this in the BBR, where it received a mostly positive reception. While a ruleset specifically designed such that your opponent can so strongly pressure you to play as a lower tier is not everyone's cup of tea, consensus was that the rules should work and should accomplish its goals.

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Brief details

To win the tournament, the objective is to earn the most points.

You earn 10 POINTS for each game you win and you can score additional points by undercutting your opponent's tier during the character selection of each game. You can go negative in points if your opponent undercuts your tier and you lose that game.

"Undercutting" happens when one player chooses a character from a lower tier than his opponent. For each tier you undercut your opponent by, you earn 1 point. For each tier your opponent undercuts you by, you lose 1 point. These points are scored and lost regardless of who wins that particular game.

Players are paired like in Swiss; if you are familiar with this, ignore the rest of this paragraph. Each round, the player with the highest score plays the highest ranked possible opponent who has not yet played with that person. This is iterated until all players are paired. This is repeated for as many rounds as the TO decides at the start of the tournament.

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Extensive details

Each time two players are paired up, they play two games. No more, no less. Each of the two games is completely independent of the other, other than that the players take turns being the Leader and the Answerer. If there is a dispute on who leads first, the players do Rock, Scissors, Paper for it.

The Leader begins by choosing three stages from the stage list. The Answerer then picks one of these stages for the current game to be played on. Next, the Leader picks his/her character, and then the Answerer responds with his/her own character.

Now, starting with the Leader, the players may optionally choose to take turns revising their character pick by moving along the tier list toward their opponent's chosen character. (To illustrate, if your current character selection is lower than your opponent's, then when it is your turn you can change your selection to any character which is not a higher tier than your opponent and is not a lower tier than your current selection.)

This process ends immediately when either player chooses not to change their character during their turn (or cannot change because the current character selection is a ditto). At this point, any points due to undercutting are scored. As stated above, points are taken from the undercut player and awarded to the undercutter at a rate of 1 point per tier. A character's "tier" is specific to the letter in the BBR tier list; i.e. D and E tiers are different despite both also being within "mid tier."

The game itself is then played using ordinary BBR rules (3 stock, 8 minute timer, etc). The winner earns 10 points.

Game two of each pairing is conducted in exactly the same manner, except that the player who was the Answerer during game 1 becomes the Leader and vice versa. No player may earn greater than 25 points in total over the course of a player pairing. (This is to prevent a random pairing with a weak player or with a player conspiring to help his "opponent" from launching a player too far ahead).

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Example

Crow! is paired against Overswarm. They agree to set Overswarm be the Leader for game 1.

Overswarm selects Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, and Pictochat. Crow! picks Battlefield.

Overswarm leads with Meta Knight. Crow! answers with Link.

Now Overswarm has the option to move down the tier list or to begin the match. If the match begins now, Crow! will earn 7 points immediately and Overswarm will have to win in order to score 3 points (and if he somehow lost, he would lose 7 points!). Overswarm decides he's a good enough player that he doesn't have to settle for such an easy matchup and score so few points. Overswarm picks Fox.

Now Crow! can either start the game as Link vs Fox, earning 3 points immediately and fight for a total of 13, or Crow! can change his character. Crow! cannot choose Ganon, and he cannot choose Peach or any character higher than Peach on the tier list. He can, however, choose Wolf or Yoshi. Crow! decides to try his luck with Yoshi.

Overswarm decides a 2 point undercut for Fox vs Yoshi is good enough for him. The game begins and Overswarm wins. Overswarm has now scored 8 points and Crow! has 2.

Crow! and Overswarm now trade places and repeat the above process starting from the stage selection.

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Notes to Tournament Organizers

Even though this ruleset is, in a vacuum, not much more complicated than the traditional counterpick system, it is completely different from what players are used to. If you choose to try this system out (whether as a side event or the main event), you will have to think about how to explain it and make sure the first tourney runs smoothly.

To that end, I provide a sheet that could be printed out and given to each player pair to make the selections easier. (Replace the stage list with whatever stages you prefer, of course.)

Word 2003 .doc of the sheet described above

A disadvantage of the Swiss format is that it doesn't necessarily build to a climactic Grand Finals. You may choose to have one last pairing between the #1 and #2 players to counteract this. But do not treat the winner of that grand finals alone as automatically the winner! Instead just have the GFs count toward the players' point totals as per usual, using the GFs as the #2 player's last chance to maybe get himself enough points to win the tourney.

Also, notice that the existing tier list is designed to describe character's performance in ordinary "S Tier Tourneys." It is possible that certain characters will perform much better in this format than in one dominated by high tiers and the top tier. So some characters may eventually need to have their tier list placement tweaked.

Please let me know if you choose to try this out! I want to know how it goes, if there are any rough edges, and in the event it becomes popular, I would like to make a Power Rankings for its players. Oh, and consider saving the used selection sheets if they are used so player decisions can be analyzed!
 

Lore

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Very interesting idea. I would love to see a tournament that used this ruleset; maybe I'll try to organize a small one (or at least a smashfest with this) in my area. I'll post vids if I'm able to get it going, lol.

This also seems like it would be fun for friendlies.
 

Raziek

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I like this. Maybe I'll be able to get this running as a side event at one of our tournies. :3
 

vVv Rapture

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I like this idea. I can't see it being more than a niche kind of thing, but I'm actually interested in trying it out.

Nice idea Crow.
 

Laem

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Great idea!
I like how every question that popped to my head was answered shortly after
 

Akaku94

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There's a lot of depth to this. For example, let's say that in the second Overswarm vs. Crow match, Crow opens with Link. Overswarm can choose Jiggs. Now Overswarm is only undercut by 1, and Crow has no choice but to take Link, Zelda, or a Jiggs Ditto.

Another notable aspect is that there's an element of strategy in trying to predict where your opponent's trying to get to as a chracter, and prevent it. EXAMPLE: My main is Kirby, but I decide that with my lead, I'll open with Sheik, one of my secondaries. instead of picking a higher tier character like I might expect, my opponent picks ROB so that I can't get to Kirby. Alternatively, they could pick Sonic or Yoshi to undercut my low-mid character, forcing me to move closer or face a disadvantage.

MK would still be a tier ahead of everyone else, right? Meaning if Player A picks MK and Player B picks Diddy (Hey, a rhyme! I'm good!), B still has an undercut of 1, right?. I think this may be a good alternative to banning, especially if we add a caveat that maybe makes the gap from S tier to A tier worth 2 or 3 points instead, to make MK more of a risky character point-wise.

Great idea... I really like it, and plan to use this with friends.
 

Kole

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This is pretty cool actually, I'd like to try this in friendlies or something
 

Aibou

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This looks like fun. Now I really want to go to irl tournies soon and get my Zelda on.
 

Akaku94

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lol Aibou... I used to use Zelda as a secondary, but I dropped her about a year ago... now I may pick her back up just for this...
 

Akaku94

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A suggestion... to make this even more valuable, maybe have a 2-point difference in some gaps, and 1-point differences in others. An example:

S-A = 2
A-B = 2
B-C = 2
C-D = 1
D-E = 1
E-F = 1

This would mean that Ganon vs. MK gives Ganon 9 points and MK a chance for 1, effectively negating him. Of course, the other player would have to move down to come out on top point-wise. There is a bigger reward for undercutting high tiers than low tiers... of course, this could be tweaked, even something totally different, like:

Match worth 20 Points

S-A = 5
A-B = 4
B-C = 4
C-D = 3
D-E = 2
E-F = 2

Of course, I'm not sure exactly how well this would work, but it would put a lot more value on player skill and flexibility, rather than one good main *cough* MK! *cough*, even above your original plan... just something to keep in mind.
 

Variable

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Amazing Idea.

Nobody will spam high tiers because they won't get many points for winning. Genus. I have a feeling we'll see some beast lower tiers players surprise people.
 

Blacknight99923

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this will obviously need to be kinked out but the concept is a good one,

a few questions though how would you recommend doing this for doubles

how would you recommend testing this?
 

Crow!

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Whoa, I just got unable table's support for something? Neat.

Anyway, applying this to doubles would require some nontrivial changes. I'll put some thought into it.

@ Akaku: I think I'd like to see how well this works in the base form before trying to micromanage the tier list and balancing. If it proved necessary, there could be tiers added - even completely empty tiers to emphasize profound gaps. But for now I'd rather leave the tier list in its BBR v4 form.
 

Remzi

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This is a really cool idea. I definitely wanna try this so I can actually use my Link <3
 

Pierce7d

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I just popped in to add that I speculate that no point re-balancing will be needed, and I would definitely suggest running it default before trying to anticipate which tiers are worth more.
 

Kewkky

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I've got a question...

What would happen if Metaknight, even though he has the points-per-game ratio as low as possible in this format, tried winning his matches how he does now, with his pseudo-stalling strategies, and won just like he does now?

Don't get me wrong, it is an interesting idea. But, we're sort of just weaving around the problem. If you've made no mention of this, I can only speculate there's a discussion on this same thing in the backroom, like a re-definition of what constitutes the general rules or something along those lines? I mean, how would that help the current dilemma, if the problem just migrates to this new system?
 

#HBC | J

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This idea is great ^_^

I can use Lucas <3

A TO should really consider adopting this in my area ;o
 

Kitamerby

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I really like this idea. It's a really, really interesting, if a bit complicated, way of going about things that could lead to very interesting results in the long run. We could end up seeing a bunch of matchups that most people felt "unnecessary," such as ICs vs Yoshi, or Sheik vs Snake.
 

sandwhale

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Here are the problems I see and I'd like them to be answered.

-This system will make using high tiers and mostly Metaknight useless: say my opponent choses falco. Then I'll go ahead and chose Zelda. If he wins he'll only win 4 points and I'll get 6 which is actually a loss for him. So naturally he's going to change his character for a lower one say fox. Then either you feel you can win with link and don't mind the risk of scoring only 3 points, or you change for a low mid character that you've already well trained. Either way nobody will be using high tiers.

-The tier list is very subjectif especially for the lower tiers. Now you may argue that if people play with lower characters more we could get a better idea of their placing but I really doubt that would bring a significative difference.

I'll add that the counterpicking system looks very interesting.

edit: Also deciding how many rounds the tournament lasts would be very subjectif and could affect the final results significantly.
 

Crow!

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Here are the problems I see and I'd like them to be answered.
Thanks for taking enough interest to write them up.

-This system will make using high tiers and mostly Metaknight useless: say my opponent choses falco. Then I'll go ahead and chose Zelda. If he wins he'll only win 4 points and I'll get 6 which is actually a loss for him. So naturally he's going to change his character for a lower one say fox. Then either you feel you can win with link and don't mind the risk of scoring only 3 points, or you change for a low mid character that you've already well trained. Either way nobody will be using high tiers.
Not quite that simple. If the leader opens with a high tier, the answerer does put himself at risk if he goes for the massive undercut: the leader gets to counterpick from essentially the entire cast! The answerer may well want to play a mid or even high tier, especially when the leader starts with a high or a mid tier character.

Also, weak players who are playing to do well rather than to completely win the tournament may want to voluntarily overcut in order to maximize their chances to win the games and score a nonzero amount of points.

But yes, if your opponent wants you to abandon high tier characters, and you are playing to win, he can make you do so. This is necessary or else low tiers would have no purpose... as is the case in a traditional "S Tier tourney."

-The tier list is very subjectif especially for the lower tiers. Now you may argue that if people play with lower characters more we could get a better idea of their placing but I really doubt that would bring a significative difference.
This format does indeed give players a strong incentive to figure out which characters are presently underrated. I think this is a good thing.

edit: Also deciding how many rounds the tournament lasts would be very subjectif and could affect the final results significantly.
As long as the number of rounds is selected before the tourney starts, there's no risk of it being unfair. My initial guess is that "a couple more rounds than would be needed for a single elimination tourney" would work well enough.
 

bleyva

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I've got a question...

What would happen if Metaknight, even though he has the points-per-game ratio as low as possible in this format, tried winning his matches how he does now, with his pseudo-stalling strategies, and won just like he does now?
if your opponent chooses MK, just answer with triforce tier. that way, his options are either;

a)pick a different character, or

b)trail 7 to 3 going into the next game, assuming he wins of course.
 

Raziek

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if your opponent chooses MK, just answer with triforce tier. that way, his options are either;

a)pick a different character, or

b)trail 7 to 3 going into the next game, assuming he wins of course.
This doesn't seem right.

Unless I mis-interpreted the rules, doesn't the winner receive 10 points regardless of their character?

Edit: Nevermind, I had indeed mis-interpreted.
 

bleyva

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Edit: Nevermind, I had indeed mis-interpreted.
oh yes, make no mistake about it.

Crow! has developed a system wherein, if you are playing to win, Ganondorf invalidates MK. Let me rewind that for ya. KM setadilavni frodnonaG. Ganondorf invalidates MK.
 

Kewkky

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if your opponent chooses MK, just answer with triforce tier. that way, his options are either;

a)pick a different character, or

b)trail 7 to 3 going into the next game, assuming he wins of course.
Ok, answer with triforce tier and lose the first game. Now you're 13-7 points. Next set, he chooses MK again. If he wins, he'll be at 26 and you'll be at 14.

Seems like MK still wins. And also points to a small flaw in this format. What's preventing other players from choosing the lowest tier character and deliberately losing vs MK, if they know they're outclassed by the opponent anyway? If the player's going against an MK pro who's obviously gonna win, the MK pro won't care about this because he's gonna win and ensure his points, but the other player can choose one of the lowest tiered characters and lose that way, so that he can gain the most out of losing and still stay ahead of everyone else.

Like, for example, you go against M2K and you KNOW you're not gonna win. He's obviously gonna stick to MK since it's his main character and he's been maining him for around 2 years now, he doesn't know any other character better than that one, MK is a stand-alone character. Now, to minimize your suffering, you just take Ganon and lose this way, and now you're 14 points higher. Doesn't this seem like an unfair way of gaining an advantage over other players? If other players choose two characters in the same tier and share wins, they'll be 10-10, and you for losing both games will be 14. Doesn't it seem like it's not really a "tier war" thing? What's the boon of choosing other characters vs MK? If you lose as Ganondorf, you'll be earning more than if you lose using other characters, and even still MK is gonna have more points if he planks and scrooges his way to victory. This doesn't change a thing with MK and his strategies, but with everyone else it does.

I'd be interested in watching this and eyeing results we could get from tourneys, but what's the point if MK is still going to scrooge and plank his way to victory? He'll still be above the system, and the only way to properly counter MK when he uses these strategies is to use another MK. So it's either "0, 10 or 20 points depending on how many games you win as MK vs MK", or "14 points no matter what if you choose Ganondorf"... And if it's against a pro who's known to have a powerful MK domination, which would you think is best? One or two losses which will end up with you earning a maximum of 10 points vs the opposing MK? Or two losses which will end up with you earning a total of 14 points vs the opposing MK? I mean Crow, you and me both know MK's strategies can only properly be countered by MK himself, so this is sort of a dilemma here.


I hope my message comes across.
 

Laem

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Now Overswarm has the option to move down the tier list or to begin the match. If the match begins now, Crow! will earn 7 points immediately and Overswarm will have to win in order to score 3 points (and if he somehow lost, he would lose 7 points!).

overswarm wins 3+10, right?
 

Tarmogoyf

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Now Overswarm has the option to move down the tier list or to begin the match. If the match begins now, Crow! will earn 7 points immediately and Overswarm will have to win in order to score 3 points (and if he somehow lost, he would lose 7 points!).

overswarm wins 3+10, right?
No, he starts at -7. Because when you get undercutted, you lose points in addition to your opponent gaining them. Like if you take 2 apples out of someone's barrel, and put them in yours, they go down 2, you go up 2, for a total of 4 points in your advantage. So OS Goes from -7 to 3, and crow! has 7.

Ninjaer is accurate lol
 

Kewkky

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Now Overswarm has the option to move down the tier list or to begin the match. If the match begins now, Crow! will earn 7 points immediately and Overswarm will have to win in order to score 3 points (and if he somehow lost, he would lose 7 points!).

overswarm wins 3+10, right?
Yep, so it's 13-7. Then next game, if they choose the same characters and Overswarm wins again, it's 26-14.


Oh, and a small observation... What about transformation characters? Zelda/Sheik, Samus/ZSS,maybe even PT included... If as soon as the characters are selected we're awarded the undercut points, what's holding me back from choosing Samus at the start, then transforming mid-match and earning my undercut points PLUS the match's points if i win That's a large point advantage I'd earn right there. Same goes for Zelda/Sheik and (to a much lesser extent) PT... What's stopping me from gaining my undercut points and transforming midmatch to ease the victory?

No, he starts at -7. Because when you get undercutted, you lose points in addition to your opponent gaining them. Like if you take 2 apples out of someone's barrel, and put them in yours, they go down 2, you go up 2, for a total of 4 points in your advantage. So OS Goes from -7 to 3, and crow! has 7.

Ninjaer is accurate lol
No, you got it wrong as far as I can see.

You earn 10 POINTS for each game you win and you can score additional points by undercutting your opponent's tier during the character selection of each game. You can go negative in points if your opponent undercuts your tier and you lose that game.
-You earn 10 POINTS for each game you win
and
-you can score additional points by undercutting your opponent's tier during the character selection of each game.
-You can go negative in points if your opponent undercuts your tier and you lose that game
.

So, you end up with 13 vs 7.


EDIT: Well, the rules say it that way, but the example points out to a different scenario. If it's the scenario in the example, then that pretty much invalidates the use of MK. All you have to do is choose Ganon and if your opponent is called M2K, he will now be disadvantaged BY A LOT of points. This ruleset FORCES you to learn different characters in different tiers, so you can no longer stick to one character and learn him as you could with the current counterpick system. M2K would be at 3 vs my 7, and next game if we undercut again he will be at 6 vs my 14.

So, we can no longer stick to a single character and are forced to learn more than one.

How can I perfect my character if I'm forced to split between two? Wouldn't that also affect big names, like Ally or ADHD or DEHF? It pretty much invalidates the use of high tiered characters and encourages the use of lowest tier characters, the path toward mid-tier even matches (like in your example, Fox vs Yoshi) would be negated by this example. Who would want to use the higher tier characters if the opponents stick to lowest tier?
 

Tarmogoyf

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For each tier you undercut your opponent by, you earn 1 point. For each tier your opponent undercuts you by, you lose 1 point
What? Pretty sure it says you gain points and they lose points

So, you earn 10, but start down 7 (AKA, OS starts at -7, crow at +7, so you only end up with 3
 
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