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Match Up Export: Falco

Sage JoWii

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Watch out for:

Falco-
Chaingrab @ beginning of stock.
Lazer camp til kill percent (Alternative is jab a lot and stay out of Kirby's FSmash range)
BAir @ Kill percent or USmash. (Alternative to this is land a lucky DAir).


How to win:

Kirby-
Chaingrab @ beginning of stock
Air camp & Bait til kill percent (the alternative is powershielding an approach or ducking between lazers.)
FSmash @ Kill percents or BAir. (The Alternative to this is gimp the recovery.)


Synopsis:

If you look @ the two it's a pretty cut and dry strategy. Falco will dictate the pace because he'll lazer camp the **** out of you but! that's only on a flat stage where the lazers actually make it across the whole stage. Places with platforms and terrain changes put a cap on that. Falco has a hard time getting kills usually but with Kirby being so light it's slightly easier to get kills; In the Kirby player's eyes it's a non-existent point because it's like an average killing percent to us.

Stages:
Counter-picking stages can push it in Kirby's favor dramatically but with FD being banned the CPing won't really help Falco TOO much.


Spit out or Swallow?

Getting the lazer makes it a clear advantage matchup Kirby's favor.
 

A1lion835

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Kirby vs Falco is even or slightly in Kirby's advantage, but it's easy for it to swing into either's advantage if one of them doesn't know the matchup. Vastly generalizing it, if the game goes 5+ minutes, it's probably a good one.

Fthrow->uair is guaranteed (and potentially more to follow, based on guessing games and whether your opponent knows the MU) and falco's dthrow chaingrab is a pain, so a grab is ~20% for both characters at the beginning of a stock.

Onstage, Kirby can deal out some heavy damage on Falco when he gets close. Falco gets to laser camp and hopefully tack on % from a distance while Kirby approaches slowly. It's easy to get knocked away, so Kirby must be very careful.

Offstage, Kirby dominates no matter who's recovering. With Falco coming back, well-timed bairs and dairs, as well as possible inhales and final cutters (landing onstage with a spike) will quickly build up damage and can easily send Falco to his grave. If Falco tries to gimp Kirby, he runs the very high risk of being killed himself. However, his dair spike is deadly and must be watched out for.

Falco's lasers are a good power, but so is inhale. Lasers can be used when falco is offstage or when he's in lag to add on some quick %, but his reflector makes it tricky. Kirby has a footstool off of Falco after an inhale break, which is pretty much a KO, or at the very least, some decent %. I would go with inhale, but it depends on the players.

Kirby can plank with very little risk because of Falco's lack of options against it and a potential dair gimp if he's intercepted.

For neutrals, strike or even ban FD because of how flat it is. Battlefield's platforms help kirby avoid the camping, so it's not bad. Smashville isn't terrible because it's smaller than FD and has the platform. YI is best because it's a good Kirby stage and its shape makes camping harder. The only things to worry about are the support ghost occasionally saving Falco and the inability to spit him under the stage, although if you're facing the stage you have an easy footstool gimp.

For CPs, Kirby should go PS1, JJ, Delfino, and RC if he's comfortable with it (beware early usmash kills). Falco should go FD, SV, Halberd or some other flat kind of stage with a low ceiling (I'm not very familiar with his CPs).

I haven't really talked about mid-high %'s, but I'm hungry and there's dinner ready. Other people can write it :p .

I recommend watching the Chu vs DEHF games from Pound 4 and 2GG for what (and especially what not) to do. They should be the first few results for "ChuDat vs DEHF" on YouTube. The commentators often give good advice for the matchup, a lot of which I've neglected to put here ("Nice change-up!"). And I don't think I'll ever forget how useful jab is after hearing "***** slap" so much xD .

Might add more later.
 

swordsaint

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few things, kirby shouldnt be approaching, he should be ducking lasers and being patient

kirby DOESNT have a chain grab on falco and is better off dthrow up tilting falco

falco shouldn't be getting hurt too much off stage if he's recovering properly.

our jab has ******** speed and will beat out most if not everything you have

our ftilt clashes with your fsmash

your up B doesnt sweet spot, so one wrong step and you'll be getting spiked.

Falco can bair a kirby thats recovering from above, or generally any kirby above falco without MUCH hassle - his airdodge is awful, also meaning uair baits.

kirby should be staying grounded as much as possible, in a sense falco is controlling this match up. bair may wall falco well, but we arent approaching, and if you start bairing carelessly we can easily beat it

kirby has nothing that's safe on shield ( except maybe certain cross ups but its hard for kirby to get in this situation because of his poor air speed)
 

A1lion835

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I have no idea how Kirby camps Falco, but SOME of the commentation is instructive (and all the shouting makes you feel like you're there, I guess). Still, the actual matches are very instructive. You'll notice Larry's jab used quite a few times to rack up damage, his dthrow chaingrab is used whenever he can, etc. Matchups aren't player vs player, but there are definitely some very helpful matches.
 

Falconv1.0

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I really don't like how Chu played in that match, he borderline ran straight into some ****. Kirby should be forcing Falco to approach or approaching really carefully, because he has the tools to avoid Falco's main camping game.
 

Falconv1.0

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Both of them really, especially the beginning of the second where the commentator acts like it was weird that DEHF gets grabs, well yeah no **** Chu ran straight ****ing into him.
 

Kewkky

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Well, Chu's more of a mindgame kind of guy, he forces people to play all awkward while they try to play in a way he won't expect, and then Chu beats them for not playing using their optimum strategy. He never really knew a whole lot of detailed Kirby information (like what strings safely from what, what does angling your attacks do, being defensive and raising your shields when you see an attack coming instead of getting hit by it [and this isn't even Kirby specific!], etc), everytime I saw him play I cringed whenever he fell into an obvious attack, or failed to shield (and possibly grab afterwards)... He was a great player, but his wins came mostly from outsmarting his opponents, instead of having more character knowledge.


So yeah, once a Falco mainer comes here and writes something up, I'll answer... My mind still doesn't seem to want to run by itself, so i'll just wait patiently...
 

Kewkky

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Was a great player? He quit?
Yep, he made a pretty big post about it, saying stuff about how he's been getting hallucinations due to mixing up meds and other things.People are expecting to see him again, but I wouldn't doubt he's gone for good.
 

A1lion835

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Swordsaint, I agree with you that Falco's in control of the match, but strangely, Falco doesn't have the advantage. Falco dictates the pace of the game (slow, if he's doing it right) and Kirby's strategy, but he can really only delay Kirby breaking through his wall, and once he does, the close combat favors Kirby. As I said, Falco's cg is something to worry about, but dthrow->repeated utilts (thanks for correcting me there, fthrow->uair is wrong) is just as frightening. In the mid-percents, moves like Kirby's ftilt, bair, uair, fair, utilt, dtilt and grab (d-throw), possibly strung together in some non-specified order, will build up Falco's percent. Falco's has similar moves (DACUS, throws, etc.) but Kirby has a slightly easier time. At high percents, Falco has moves like fsmash, usmash and dair (gimping) for killing, while Kirby's fsmash and bair (regular KO's), as well as dair, fair and bair again (gimping) give him slightly more options. As I said before, dead neutral or slightly in Kirby's favor. Since we don't have a ton of stuff to discuss, I'll post t1mmy's summary, which he wrote on AiB:

t1mmy said:
Kirby vs. Falco

The difference in this match-up changes wildly at different levels of play. When the Falco player is at a low level of skill, Kirby is a very challenging opponent capable of dealing massive combos and powerful attacks. As the Falco learns the match-up, further explores his options, and develops counter strategies against Kirby, the match-up starts evening out into a much more neutral challenge. At high levels of play, Falco's attacks and mobility give a distinct and obvious advantage over Kirby.

Long Range

The best thing Kirby can do at this range is Crouch. Do not even bother approaching. If Falco is smart he will not bother approaching either. If Kirby wants to eliminate a possible approach option from Falco, he can roll to the edge of the stage which makes Falco's Side Special unfeasable. At this point, it is up to one player or the other to approach or to try to force an approach. This will mostly be from Falco because Kirby really can't do much except squat there.

Alternately, here is some advice should Kirby which to approach Falco or force an approach from Falco. It's inevitable that Falco will be putting up a wall of lasers between himself and Kirby to make approaches more difficult and to gain a percentage lead should any of the lasers hit.

Kirby actually has a number of options while approaching. He can use the universal defenses against incoming lasers such as Shield and Dodge, specifically you want to Perfect Shield since Dodging (air dodge/spot dodge/rolling) is a bit more unwieldy, frame-wise. Other options include ducking under lasers during the approach (just crouch every time a laser is fired), as well as floating over the lasers with multiple jumps. An aerial approach can put pressure on Falco since the opponent will likely be expecting an attack (i.e. B-air), and can shut down the lasers early as the Falco prepares to defend, intercept, or Illusion away any perceived attacks. Note that multi-jumpers such as Meta Knight employ an aerial approach when dealing with Falco's lasers and grab game.

Mid Range
Falco can take a lot of advantage from this distance, his Lasers are as viable at this range as at long range and can be used for leads into Jabs, Tilts, Grabs, Dash Attacks, and Smashes. Retreating Lasders also allow Falco to pull back and distance himself from Kirby should he need it.

While Kirby has some things he can attempt at this range, most of it can be shut down by a pre-emptive Laser or one of Falco's fast attacks. Of most importance at this range is Falco's use of his Side Special. This attack's use is in its ability to simultaneously move Falco out of Kirby's range and deal some damage. The damage is slight, but when combined with Lasers it allows a nearly unpunishable strategy for Falco to build damage. Additionally, it can force Kirby into a defensive position which can give Falco an opening for an approach, specifically moving into close range for a Grab.

Close Range

Both Falco and Kirby have strong grab combos on each other, so a mistake at this range when at low percents (under 20% to 30%) can result in a good deal of damage being dealt. If Falco gets a Grab on Kirby he can chain grab with {D-throw(9%), Grab, D-throw(9%*), D-air(13%)...}:31% and still have a solid follow-up for additional damage which can leave Kirby at 30% to 60% damage.

If Kirby gets a Grab on Falco he can get a guarenteed {F-throw (8%), U-air (10%)}:18%. Kirby can continue the combo for further damage but it is dependant on the Falco player's ability to S-DI out. If the Falco does not S-DI out of the combo, Kirby can follow-up in a few ways, the most common ways being {F-throw (8%*), U-air (10%*}:18%*, or {(r.)U-Tilt (7%), B-air (12%)}:19%, both of which have possible follow-ups. In total, Kirby can score 18% to about 36%* damage.

*possible reduction due to Stale Moves.

KO Options

Kirby definitely has the stronger KO options. His F-smash is very effective against Falco due to its powerful horizontal knockback. Since Falco is susceptible to horizontal KOs, the F-smash can kill at around the 100% levels.

While Falco's KO options are not as strong as Kirby's, his U-smash can still be a very strong KO attack because of Kirby's light weight and because he is susceptible to vertical KOs. It is also a fast smash attack and the distance can be increased with a DACUS making it easier to hit with and usable from much farther away.

Edge-Guarding & Recovery

Although Kirby has a huge advantage against Falco off-stage, he faces a couple main problems. First, it can be difficult to get attacks to land on Falco in order to get him off-stage to begin with. Second, even when off-stage, Kirby will be unable to move quickly enough to follow Falco off and continue the offense before Falco can recover.

Most often, Falco will not have much trouble getting back to the ledge quickly, and if Kirby is Edge-Hogging, he can return to the stage with very little landing lag to be punished. If, however, Kirby can get Falco to recover low enough, he can **** Falco's U-special recovery. There are also a number of attacks that Kirby can use against Falco's Side Special should he choose it to recover onto the stage. F-smash, D-smash, U-tilt, B-air and N-air all have uses against an in-coming Illusion.

When the roles are reversed, and Kirby is being edge-guarded, Kirby no longer has a big advantage against Falco. Instead, Falco has enough options to use against Kirby to make his edge-guarding a threat to Kirby. Falco can send Lasers at Kirby from a distance, he can use B-airs when Kirby gets close to the stage, and of course he has his D-air which can spike Kirby's slow jumps or even spike him out of a Final Cutter.

Match-up Specific

Falco is very easy to juggle and combo making Kirby's U-tilt, U-air, and F-throw effective at building damage. Falco's Lasers are one of - if not the best - Copy Abilities in the game. They cannot be spammed at Falco, but they can be weaved into Kirby's attacks and can help create openings, build damage, and interrupt Falco's attacks. If Falco chooses, he can play a distancing game the entire match and there is little Kirby can do about this.

40-60, Falco's advantage
 

Kewkky

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But Timmy's summary says it's 40;60 in Falco's advantage. : |

It totally contradicts what you've said. : |

I'll read this tomorrow once I wake up and eat lunch, I'm in the mood for writing stuff. :D
 

Sage JoWii

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-glances @ wall of text and yawns-

Maybe tomorrow.

You guys really need to get over the percent ratios. We're busting out solely whether it's dis/ or advantage and how great/ small.
 

Kewkky

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Yes. I said "Here's a summary to discuss, since we don't have much on the table," not "Here's this summary which completely backs up all of my beliefs." :p
But if it's not your own summary, then if we say anything wrong and all of us believe it to be right, who's going to correct us? T!MMY won't because he's not here to discuss the MU and back his opinions. See what I mean?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, I decided that it was time I should help out the boards a bit more, so I'm gonna write something up soon. This matchup is pretty technical, Falco has a lot of options which we should cover individually with one single write-up, so it'll probably take a while. I already did my ROB analysis, gonna do the Falco one soon enough. Keep an eye out for it!
 

t!MmY

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But if it's not your own summary, then if we say anything wrong and all of us believe it to be right, who's going to correct us? T!MMY won't because he's not here to discuss the MU and back his opinions. See what I mean?
People should feel free to post whatever they want about the discussion, 'wrong' or otherwise. This is how things get clarified and the matchup discussion progresses.

A1 was basically saying, "Here's a good starting point for the discussions" since I had already addressed a lot of the major points in the Match-up.

What I'd like to ask is: what makes the match-up anything close to "nearly even" between Kirby and Falco. In other words, please tell me what notable advantages Falco has against Kirby, what notable advantages Kirby has against Falco, and how those advantages stack up against each other in any given match between two high-level players. This part here is specifically aimed toward A1, but anyone should feel free to chime in with their own opinions.
 

A1lion835

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Falco
Dictates pace of game (by laser camping)
Lasers build up damage effectively
Dthrow CG at beginning of stocks
Good options for dealing damage (DACUS, throws, jab, tilts, etc.)
Good killing options (smashes)
Dair is a spike

Kirby
Slightly better than Falco in close combat
dthrow->utilts deals good damage
Good damage-building moves (tilts, aerials, dthrow)
Varied killing options (fsmash, bair for outright and aerials for gimping), although they are somewhat easy to see coming
Better offstage game

Throughout the stock, Falco can control the game by camping and laying on damage with his lasers, but if Kirby is patient, he should be rewarded when he closes the distance. The other imbalances line up nearly evenly: they both have CGs at the beginning of the stock and varied options for dealing damage. Kirby has a few more reliable kill moves, but they're a bit easier to avoid. Offstage, both characters have to be careful, but Falco needs to be more alert than Kirby.
 

Sage JoWii

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I'll go ahead and leave my two cants on this because we're about to finish this discussion up after this last bubble of debating.

I'd call it near even.

Falco-
Chaingrab @ beginning of stock.
Lazer camp til kill percent (Alternative is jab a lot and stay out of Kirby's FSmash range)
BAir @ Kill percent or USmash. (Alternative to this is land a lucky DAir).

Kirby-
Chaingrab @ beginning of stock
Air camp & Bait til kill percent (the alternative is powershielding an approach or ducking between lazers.)
FSmash @ Kill percents or BAir. (The Alternative to this is gimp the recovery.)

If you look @ the two it's a pretty cut and dry strategy. Falco will dictate the pace because he'll lazer camp the **** out of you but! that's only on a flat stage where the lazers actually make it across the whole stage. Places with platforms and terrain changes put a cap on that. Falco has a hard time getting kills usually but with Kirby being so light it's slightly easier to get kills; In the Kirby player's eyes it's a non-existent point because it's like an average killing percent to us.

With those points covered you're looking @ an even match-up.
Counter-picking stages can push it in Kirby's favor dramatically but with FD being banned the CPing won't really help Falco TOO much.
Getting the lazer makes it a clear advantage matchup Kirby's favor.

So. Keep discussing?
 

jiovanni007

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In a nutshell this match is slightly in Kirby's favor. When you say Falco controls the pace of the match up, I say lawl who doesn't control the pace against Kirby that's C tier and above? One common misconception that should be addressed first is the effectiveness of Kirby's offstage game. READ: ITS NOT THAT GREAT IN THIS MATCH UP. Example, Falco's side B ***** gimping options. Here's a crude sketch of it:

UIII

where U = falco's hurtbos and I = the hitbox of the move that extends about 2 body lengths ahead of him. Meaning in short that the only way to gimp Falco is to be hugging his body so that he isn't close enough to use side b in enough time or not close enough. The other option is to dair with Kirby's feet only inside of the hitbox of the move. If any of Kirby's hurtbox gets caught in the attack then dair will be canceled and Falco will recover safely.

On the ground Falco is a monster, double barrel mobster, rasta, rockstar. Seriously don't approach because he will wreck you. If you're at range crouch and watch for a side B and shield accordingly. With SDI he can escape a second grab from 0% and he can cg you 3 times and then follow with a dair for a quick 40%. Only good part is that his kill moves are very predictable (though a DACUS is still effective due to the range and speed). My advice is to stay in his when you get close to death to prevent a surprise dacus. Most players won't risk a punishable usmash when u get in their face. The only good lasers do is aiding in the gimp game. Basically you laser him to force him to use an ^up then he becomes like candy and Kirby is the toddler.

I still say this match is even though Falco dominates on the ground I think its time for Kirby players to learn to camp and punish instead of approaching with bair. Dtilit and ftilt are your friend in this match. just be careful in close range cuz that jab of Falco's is way too good.
 

t!MmY

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Falco
Dictates pace of game (by laser camping)
Lasers build up damage effectively over a very long, campy period of time
Dthrow CG at beginning of stocks
Good options for dealing damage (DACUS, throws, jab, tilts, etc.)
Good killing options (smashes)
Dair is a spike

Kirby
Slightly better than Falco in close combat
dthrow->utilts deals good mediocre damage
Good damage-building moves (tilts, aerials, dthrow)
Varied killing options (fsmash, bair for outright and aerials for gimping), although they are somewhat easy to see coming
Better offstage game

Throughout the stock, Falco can control the game by camping and laying on damage with his lasers, but if Kirby is patient, he should be rewarded when he closes the distance. The other imbalances line up nearly evenly: they both have Falco has CGs at the beginning of the stock and varied options for dealing damage. Kirby has a few more reliable kill moves, but they're a bit LOT easier to avoid. Offstage, both characters have to be careful, but Falco needs to be more alert than Kirby just has to Side Special.
I fixed a few things that you might have overlooked. Get back to me on them.
 
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