Mario is not an Aggro character

^read the title

From my experience using this character, Mario really just isn't meant to be offensive and aggressive in this game. His strengths actually lie in his defensive options and ability to poke his way for some safe damage.

If you are looking for a character who can constantly benefit from aggressive strategies...try Luigi. Luigi is what Mario would have been if Mario was designed to be an offensive character, and in exchange he loses defensive options. So don't play Mario like Luigi if you want to win. Mario is a completely different beast that requires a different fundamental approach to his playstyle.

To put in better detail why Mario should be played defensively, I'll list specific differences between him and Luigi:

Luigi has
+More damaging combos
+easier combo starters
+A more consistent D-throw with less growth rate
+Massively powerful kill moves ranging from his F-smash and Up-B, the former which is safe on block, the latter which can sometimes be comboed into
+A longer ranged Jab that also is less situational for combo starting
+A down-B that closes range quickly
+A FAST F-air that pressures easily

In addition, Luigi also has less traction than Mario, which is best abused offensively for increasing the range of his ground moves and is rarely ever helpful in defensive situations.

Mario has
+Less ending lag and landing lag on N-air, U-air, and B-air
+A multhi hit D-air which can frametrap dodges that has fairly weak combo potential
+An Auto Jab which can be used to punish dodges consistently
+A U-tilt with more vertical range and priority that anti-airs better and punishes dodges more consistently when aimed correctly
+More versatile fireballs which are affected by gravity and travel farther
+more run speed and aerial speed
+A disjointed Cape which reflects projectiles and also stalls aerial momentum
+A longer ranged F-smash and D-smash
+A much faster F-tilt
+A disjointed Up-B that starts up frame 3, the fastest oos option in the entire game
+Awesome edgestalling

A combination of these factors should make my point clear. Mario is clearly a much more defensive character by design when compared to Luigi, with more options that can be made harder to punish but fewer options for building damage in quick spurts. At any rate, Luigi should be at most only 2 spots above Mario on the tier list, and I'll prove it through matchup theory if necessary.

Besides that, I must really stress to anyone who is using Mario, while it may be fun and occasionally beneficial to go aggressive with Mario, that is not where his fundamentals lie.

The Mario players that I expect to win most matches will fireball camp and poke a lot with B-airs and F-tilts, only going for a combo when they have conditioned the opponent to approach or defend in certain ways and when they get a grab at low percents. You will be baiting a lot with retreat or leanback F-smash. Spacing with Cape as a pseudo F-air is an underused tactic that I will expect more of in the future. Where as Luigi will rush down an opponent expecting his N-air to come out on top of whatever the opponent uses to defend, Mario users will draw different approaches towards him and can react with an option that covers it such as his Jab or U-tilt (the latter is for advanced Mario users, do not expect to understand how to anti-air or frame trap dodges with it immediately).

And the reason why I find Mario vs Luigi fun, and Mario dittos UNBEARABLE has become pretty clear to me. Neither character in the Mario vs Luigi matchup has to really change their playstyle much in order to go about the matchup correctly (this is assuming that players like me play to exploit Mario's defensive advantages over Luigi's). Luigi approaches and Mario defends, and that doesn't change in that matchup.

In Mario dittos, Mario is forced to move outside of his normally defensive playstyle and get ***** for trying to approach past fireballs and retreat spacing in order to do anything entertaining. The campier player wins the matchup, not the better Mario player.

Again I'm not telling you to stop playing Mario aggressively, but if you're looking to win matches by just going aggro...Mario is definitely not the best character for that.

I agree 100% on this, although I'm at fault for playing aggressive too. I gotta start working on playing defensively, however I believe that playing both aggresively/defensively work better then just playstyle (however you already mentioned this.)

Good read, A2.

this
10lulz

But I'm so agressive!!!!

The only defence I use is Fireballs

and Cape...

You might just be doing it wrong, then.

Mario is a defensive character that punishes things pretty well. I will say this, though, I love Mario dittos. I feel they reflect people's technical skill pretty well, though, obviously not perfectly.

Defensive is the way to go, I've been advocating this for almost a year now.

This is news?

I don't think it's rather news, rather than just something for people who know little about Mario to understand. So much I've heard people try to compare him and Luigi and it's just not the way to go about things.

Also, this thread would help newer players looking for mains actually THINK about Mario, rather than just going to Luigi thinking he's an easier, better Mario. I've seen that happen so many times it actually makes me laugh.

XeroXen said:

I don't think it's rather news, rather than just something for people who know little about Mario to understand. So much I've heard people try to compare him and Luigi and it's just not the way to go about things.

Also, this thread would help newer players looking for mains actually THINK about Mario, rather than just going to Luigi thinking he's an easier, better Mario. I've seen that happen so many times it actually makes me laugh.

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I play mario in friendlies and I figured out that playing defensively was the way to go in about 2 minutes.

I'm still not seeing your point. Other people aren't YOU.

I can't seem to play Luigi offensively due to his traction and floatiness... When I see an opening I try to dash in for a combo but I end up running in place for a bit.

Luigi ain't like Mario, trust me. When I tried to Luigi in a Mario playstyle, it fails big time, don't do it. Luigi is all about spacing and being defensive, Mario imo, Mario can be offensive and defensive. Mario got a better rushdown than Luigi due to Luigi's aerials being slower than Mario's. Luigi can be offensively, learn to buffer your moves faster but don't risk on playing aggressively because it on depends on MUs when u're Luigi. Luigi sucks against ppl w/ long range, ex: Marth, Ike. Luigi > Mario in spacing and Mario > Luigi in approaching b/c Luigi have to be careful and space out on his bad MUs and they take can advantage of his traction, Mario have a chance to deal w/ Luigi's MUs.

either way that ain't metaknight


weeege or mario ain't winning tourneys


inb4biglou

Luigi's rushdown is definitely better than Mario's, since his jumps and aerials are better at keeping him out of shieldgrab range. And his F-air is significantly more useful, as well as his Jab. He's also got the Cyclone to close distance on anything whiffed.

Mario gets owned for going aggressive in most matchups since it isn't hard to shieldgrab his approach unless he goes through the effort of crossing you over.

Mario's spaced stuff is usually safer than Luigi's due to having less ending lag, but he is worse at combo setups and doesn't do as much damage. Also his F-smash is more practical as a defensive spacer than anything Luigi has.

What kind of terrible Luigi approaches with Nair and expects it to beat everything out? O_o

Nair is a bad approach, a lot of moves will **** it.

Kitamerby said:

What kind of terrible Luigi approaches with Nair and expects it to beat everything out? O_o

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Just because it isn't used in strict approaches doesn't change that Luigi's N-air is definitely a better offensive tool than Mario's. You pressure someone with it and when it hits, you get a combo.

You can't expect the same results with Mario in most situations so usually it is not worth trying to pressure people with Mario's N-air except in edgeguards. Instead, Mario's N-air out of shield is a much more defensively applicable option compared to Luigi's.

Mario and Luigi have completely different responses to say...dodges. Where as Luigi can pretty much continue his approach with Cyclone or N-air and get a free combo when his opponent uses a dodge, Mario does better punishing a dodge through conservative options. Mario has an auto Jab and a U-tilt that is better suited for this.

Every character in this game generally has to play defensively unless you've got a huge disjoint.

That said, Mario has good defensive options. People should be using them.

Edit: Luigi doesn't have better rushdown than Mario. I think you're looking for a different term. Mashing "A" to Nair out as soon as possible while being comboed doesn't = rushdown.

Mario's fireballs are the definition of rushdown in any fighter. The only thing Luigi has that compares in rushdown capability is his better selection of SH aerials for shield pressure. That said, Mario's Dair and Nair, coupled with fireball approach, make Mario superior in that category.

I mean, Luigi's traction alone works against his ability to be played with a rushdown style.

If Mario had good forward options, his fireballs would make him really good at rushdown, but he doesn't. Luigi also has the Cyclone for closing distance quickly as well, and his Jab and ability to better space outside of shieldgrab range AND superior combo setups make it infinitely more worthwhile to rushdown with Luigi. Not only are you less likely to get shieldgrabbed for pressuring with those insanely low lag D-airs/F-airs -> other stuff, you get more reward for doing it.

Mario's stuff is usually best used when spaced at maximum range, especially when you look at important moves like B-air, F-tilt, and F-smash. This is the complete opposite of Luigi, who benefits most at getting in point blank range.

Luigi's traction doesn't stop him from rushing down. It actually helps that. Sliding Jabs and Smashes can't be overlooked, but his low traction reduces his defensive options.

Probably something i should ask the luigi boards.... but what's luigi's grab range like?

On-topic, I agree with most or all of what you say in this, and I think my game will improve drastically if i actually play defensively... IF i do

wow i had no idea mario was a defensive character, i am going to pick him up agian!

Fireball spamming camping is a good idea?

A2ZOMG said:

If Mario had good forward options, his fireballs would make him really good at rushdown, but he doesn't. Luigi also has the Cyclone for closing distance quickly as well, and his Jab and ability to better space outside of shieldgrab range AND superior combo setups make it infinitely more worthwhile to rushdown with Luigi. Not only are you less likely to get shieldgrabbed for pressuring with those insanely low lag D-airs/F-airs -> other stuff, you get more reward for doing it.

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His options don't outweigh Mario's in terms of rushdown. He has capejumping, which is safe on shield for all intents and purposes, fireball mix-ups, and he can better punish a whiffed shieldgrab. That, and Dair -> Nair is safe on shield for basic shield pressure.

Cyclone, range and a safe array of aerials are great for rushdown, but Mario is AT LEAST equally capable in that regard.

A2ZOMG said:

Mario's stuff is usually best used when spaced at maximum range, especially when you look at important moves like B-air, F-tilt, and F-smash. This is the complete opposite of Luigi, who benefits most at getting in point blank range.

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True, but by definition, rushdown is centered around pressuring your opponent to the point that they make unwise defensive decisions. Range doesn't really matter as long as you're laying down pressure and able to capitalize on mistakes.

My main point is that Mario is better suited for this because his fireballs are so good for rushdown in general.

A2ZOMG said:

Luigi's traction doesn't stop him from rushing down. It actually helps that. Sliding Jabs and Smashes can't be overlooked, but his low traction reduces his defensive options.

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It helps and hurts in my opinion. On the subject of pressure, it's hard to stay on your opponent if they're able to luckily get you outside and keep you there because you slide away while defending.

Y'all are just figuring this out? I've been playing defensive since the game came out...





Just sayin'

I've always played aggro finding my main when I got the game, but now I play more defensively.

Also, lol @ Monk's new avy. It's so qu33r crap gay awesome..

Man...whatever dude...you just mad cuz I'm stylin on you

changed my mind, disregard this post^^

Every Mario should play this way. I been spamming fire balls since i got the game lulz

Yeah just I think besides spamming fireballs, I think a lot of inexperienced Mario users try too hard to force combos, when Mario REALLY benefits more from playing a poke style.

^ That.

When I first saw those omgwtfbbq combo videos by you guys on youtube, I thought that was the way to play Mario. I tried it for a few months and failed lots.

A2ZOMG said:

Yeah just I think besides spamming fireballs, I think a lot of inexperienced Mario users try too hard to force combos, when Mario REALLY benefits more from playing a poke style.

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As someone who's recently moved away from going full aggro nonstop (I faced pit all the time, what are you supposed to do?), I have to agree with A2. I think that newcomers are going to need to 'force' combos in practice mode against computers, just to get a feel of how they work, though.

-Mario can switch between defensive and offensive styles with ease, but being defensive suits him better when playing against Htiers, M and Ltiers are fine when u play offensive, but, carefull, being offensive doesn't mean to spam Uair or Dthrow techase, and being defensive doesn't mean to spam Bair all day long...-

It Means Spam Fire balls and reflect Projectile.......

I'm attending a low/mid tier tourney soon; tomorrow.
Should I go aggro, defense, or both?

Defensive is the best option, but going aggro is fine. Mix it up between the two, so you don't get predictable.

Why do you guys think Flameleon does so good on the AIB ladder compared to other marios??

Cause wifi is srs business.

No offense to Flame <3

Kanzaki said:

Cause wifi is srs business.

No offense to Flame <3

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WRONG ANSWER!

Because he's campy!

But I'm campy toooooooooooo </whiny voice>