Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Ness

MaskedAvnger · May 30, 2010

NESS

Let's try to get some Matchup discussions going again. There's some I don't know much about, and I'm trying to compile a complete MU guide for all of us to have, and if I get a good list going, I could try and get the MU thread going again.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10460888&postcount=49

MaskedAvnger · May 30, 2010

Personally I don't like this matchup. I think it's slightly Tink's favor though.

- PK thunder is easy to gimp due to projectiles and quick aerials.
- PK Fire gets eaten by boomerang (maybe arrows? I don't recall if arrows do)
- Zair outranges any of his physical attacks
- Nothing we do gets eaten by Ness' Down-B for recovery

Ness advantages
- Fsmash reflects arrows and boomerang
- Fsmash is powerful
- Very good aerial game, (don't know how it stacks up vs. our aerial game, seems like it would be equal or superior)
- Kill throw, Tink is light

I'm sure there's more to it than what I just brought up, but that's all I can think of at the moment.

I'd say 55/45 or 60/40 Toon's favor.

Yink · May 30, 2010

Hi there.~

So, it's definitely around 60:40, but I don't like to focus on ratios so use whatever you want, that's just an approximation.

You need to force Ness to approach no matter what. Fsmash is not a good call for Ness because while it does reflect, it's slow. If I remember this right, Ness' jab can stop arrows, and he can pick up bombs with Nair pretty easily.

Don't let Fair walls happen, at all and don't try to hang on hookshot for very long, PK Fire is a great move to use against it.

Watch out for PK Thunder mindgames, if you get caught in the tail it's not easy to get out. If you want to gimp Ness, honestly, I'd either use an arrow if you have good timing, or just jump in the way of the tail haha. If Ness has been doing PK Thunder for more than half a second don't even try to touch him, you'll get hit and the knockback is tough to deal with. If you're risky and he's kind of far away, you can probably let yourself hit him (if you're at a LOW percent) and that will shorten the range, and he'll die. I don't really suggest that though...

Don't let Ness grab. He's got good grabs. Fthrow does 11%, Uthrow's 10%, Dthrow sucks but is good with a PK Fire combo and then you've got Bthrow which kills everything in sight.

I guess that's all I've got. Watch out for fast aerials, throws and the dair spikes. Your best option is to just camp and spam like crazy.

NearZzz · May 30, 2010

I'm not really good at wording stuff the right way in matchups so uh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5CkqpELnP4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jepNaeBYUFA&feature=related

These are abit old and we were both playing kinda slow in them but yeah

Thebest1pj · May 30, 2010

70:30 our favor pk fire is diable out of

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bGRuBdPf4M last match

napZzz · May 30, 2010

near is bad and loses to a ness that doesn't play this game dont listen to him

NearZzz · May 30, 2010

-NaPPy said:
near is bad and loses to a ness that doesn't play this game dont listen to him

What when did that happen

WindMajor · May 30, 2010

Thanks for the help, Yink.

This is my least favorite matchup along with Lucas, so I'm just gonna spectate with a pen and paper.

Actually, I have a few questions.
1)What's the best way around a PK fire and Fair?

TLMSheikant · May 30, 2010

Umm...err...did u ask the guy in charge of discussions? Hmm...

Thebest1pj · May 30, 2010

Twinkie said:
Thanks for the help, Yink.

This is my least favorite matchup along with Lucas, so I'm just gonna spectate with a pen and paper.

Actually, I have a few questions.
1)What's the best way around a PK fire and Fair?

ps it jump over it you you can fire an arrow out when you get hit by it

WindMajor · May 31, 2010

Lets just get this discussion completed and out of the way before we decide what to do with it.

TLMSheikant · May 31, 2010

What's there to discuss. Just run away, camp, be gay. Its brawl.

WindMajor · May 31, 2010

With that logic, there's no need to discuss matchups ever.

Yink · May 31, 2010

Twinkie said:
Thanks for the help, Yink.

This is my least favorite matchup along with Lucas, so I'm just gonna spectate with a pen and paper.

Actually, I have a few questions.
1)What's the best way around a PK fire and Fair?

PK Fire is slow as heck, so punish it with boomerang or a bomb or something fast, maybe zair?

Fair...well if you throw a bomb at it I think it just explodes on contact. I know that if Snake throws a Nade at Ness while he's Fairing it'll explode (what I mean is, he won't catch it to my knowledge). Once Ness gets close though, I'd probably use a tilt or something, otherwise you'll have to try to get some distance again. Ness Fair walls rack up damage pretty fast.

MaskedAvnger · May 31, 2010

Sorry shiekant, i started work on a personal MU guide and I don't know any Ness mains, it slipped my mind to ask anyone before I did this.

I was just trying to get discussions going because we've been on snake and Mk for almost a month.

I apologize, I won't make any more threads without running it by you guys first.

Thebest1pj · May 31, 2010

MaskedAvnger said:
Sorry shiekant, i started work on a personal MU guide and I don't know any Ness mains, it slipped my mind to ask anyone before I did this.

I was just trying to get discussions going because we've been on snake and Mk for almost a month.

I apologize, I won't make any more threads without running it by you guys first.

if you dont i will lol we've on snake and mk for a year now

NH Cody · May 31, 2010

Twinkie said:
With that logic, there's no need to discuss matchups ever.

lololololololol

I suggest using tons of bombs and ibombs. I think ibombs really help in this MU.

TLMSheikant · May 31, 2010

MaskedAvnger said:
Sorry shiekant, i started work on a personal MU guide and I don't know any Ness mains, it slipped my mind to ask anyone before I did this.

I was just trying to get discussions going because we've been on snake and Mk for almost a month.

I apologize, I won't make any more threads without running it by you guys first.

Oh no no. Dont get me wrong. U can do it. But u shouldve asked first

.

Iofsauron · May 31, 2010

Honestly this match-up is pretty easy because:

1) E-Z gimp
2) No one ever plays these characters, so most of the time you dont have to worry about it cause they are easy gimps (lol)
3) More priority most of the time close up and a better projectile spammer

WindMajor · May 31, 2010

My frustration comes from the fact that it just feels really awkward fighting Ness.

All I do is get caught up in his aerials.

MaskedAvnger · May 31, 2010

As far as stages go, I'm assuming most of the flatter stages that are projectile friendly are good, what stages is Ness particularly good on?

Seems like Pictochat would be good for him, with his awesome throws, getting you into obstacles would be easier, and the small horizontal blastzones would prove to use helpful to him too. I'm not sure if that would be his best though.

WindMajor · May 31, 2010

I would CP him to Lylat.

I'd imagine that the tilting ledge could possibly screw slightly with his recovery. PK Thunders would be difficult with 3 platforms covering the floor, and PK Fire would just hit the floor. The level is also wide, which gives us a lot of room to run away.

TLMSheikant · May 31, 2010

I like delfino plaza...anyways, use arrows, rang, bombs, ibombs, zair and bair a lot. Just stay away from the fair.

Iofsauron · May 31, 2010

Twinkie said:
My frustration comes from the fact that it just feels really awkward fighting Ness.

All I do is get caught up in his aerials.

For aerials, i like to spam my back aerial, since it comes out quickly with a descent hit-box, and my n-air seems useful too

WindMajor · May 31, 2010

TLMSheikant said:
I like delfino plaza...

Typical S@nT....... :rolleyes:

anyways, use arrows, rang, bombs, ibombs, zair and bair a lot. Just stay away from the fair.

I don't like to use arrows against Ness. I normally just pull out twice as many bombs.

MJG · May 31, 2010

You guys are over complicating this >_>

Just play keep away. Ness' CQC is better than ours but...our disjointed hitbox beats ness out. Make sure to space aerials probably and to just stay alert...

Ban Brinstar.

MU is 70:30 Ness' Favor

Chuee · May 31, 2010

~mjg~ said:
MU is 70:30 Ness' Favor

You be trollin

demonictoonlink · Jun 1, 2010

This MU is Tink's favor, but Ness does alright.

Spam him, grab him, yeah.

I think we have Grab Release to Dsmash. Always works for me at least.

Gimp Ness. Bair him offstage usually works.

Space Zair and Nair. And Bair.

Yup.

Yink · Jun 1, 2010

^ I don't think the dsmash always works. ^

Gimping isn't always easy either, but if I were you I'd just...throw bombs and lots of arrows.

As for stages, ban Brinstar OR DELFINO. I don't know why Ness mains don't use this stage, it's a perfect stage for him, he can move through any of the platforms while the stage is moving, he can spike a lot, etc.

CP Yoshi's because it's not flat (so it sucks for PKF), Shy Guys have the chance to mess up recovery and the platform in the middle of the stage does more hurt than help. Maybe Lylat for the same reasons minus the stage being able to stop the recovery altogether.

Hope that was helpful. Just don't let Ness get close enough to do some combos or throw you. Bthrow kills surprisingly early and from what I know it's not that easy to DI.

Thebest1pj · Jun 1, 2010

Yink said:
^ I don't think the dsmash always works. ^

Gimping isn't always easy either, but if I were you I'd just...throw bombs and lots of arrows.

As for stages, ban Brinstar OR DELFINO. I don't know why Ness mains don't use this stage, it's a perfect stage for him, he can move through any of the platforms while the stage is moving, he can spike a lot, etc.

CP Yoshi's because it's not flat (so it sucks for PKF), Shy Guys have the chance to mess up recovery and the platform in the middle of the stage does more hurt than help. Maybe Lylat for the same reasons minus the stage being able to stop the recovery altogether.

Hope that was helpful. Just don't let Ness get close enough to do some combos or throw you. Bthrow kills surprisingly early and from what I know it's not that easy to DI.

you dont what your talking about

NH Cody · Jun 1, 2010

~mjg~ said:
MU is 70:30 Ness' Favor

?????

I think most of us would agree it's our advantage. We can camp him to no end with our jectile game.

+ gimps

TLMSheikant · Jun 1, 2010

ToonySonic said:
?????

I think most of us would agree it's our advantage. We can camp him to no end with our jectile game.

+ gimps

sarcasm fail.

Thebest1pj · Jun 1, 2010

TLMSheikant said:
sarcasm fail.

10agreeds toonlinkmaster sheikant

Iofsauron · Jun 1, 2010

Honestly, just camp like a boss, more bombs and boomerang than anything

Arrows every once in a while, but bombs and boomerang work the best with the good hit-boxes

Bartolon · Jun 3, 2010

Ok lets start.

Ness can break arrows and boomerang with a nair, and with the right timing catch a bomb.
Zair hurts ness alot, so try to abuse it when your close to ness.
Don't try obvious stuff when ness is above you, just keep it plain and simple and throw a boomerang,throw a bomb etc.
Gimping ness isn't that easy as everyone thinks, a good ness always keeps his 2nd jump and he can change the way he recovers (rising fair,recover higher, etc.)
It's in tl's favor but I didn't have alot of problems against Tink for getting grabs in... so don't try to approach ness when your at high percents.

Meh, this is all I have right now.

Kole · Jun 3, 2010

It's embarassing when an arrow cancels PKT when we're offstage. >.>

Chuee · Jun 3, 2010

Ban Delfino.
If you get in the water once you lose your stock.

MaskedAvnger · Jun 3, 2010

I'd ban Brinstar instead.

While Delfino does present the threat of water, the lava on Brinstar helps Ness have a more safe recovery for a bigger portion of the time on the map, plus the stage is so small that it makes projectile camping a lot harder.

Delfino's one of my favorite stages though, so I might be a little biased... But it would definitely be my ban if Brinstar were not included on a stage list at any given tourney.

I'd say either is a good ban, but I would ban Brinstar before Delfino.

Thebest1pj · Jun 4, 2010

MaskedAvnger said:
I'd ban Brinstar instead.

While Delfino does present the threat of water, the lava on Brinstar helps Ness have a more safe recovery for a bigger portion of the time on the map, plus the stage is so small that it makes projectile camping a lot harder.

Delfino's one of my favorite stages though, so I might be a little biased... But it would definitely be my ban if Brinstar were not included on a stage list at any given tourney.

I'd say either is a good ban, but I would ban Brinstar before Delfino.

"lava helps him" the stage transformation of delfino helps him to and it does it more frequently

NearZzz · Jun 4, 2010

Ban Brinstar.

Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Ness

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