Opponent Move Analysis

Pikabunz · Jun 7, 2010

Startup - The first frame the move's hitbox comes out.
Shield Advantage - The frame advantage you get after shielding that attack. Only the shield advantage for fresh moves are shown.
*To get Power Shield (PS) advantage and Out of Shield (OoS) advantage just subtract 7 from shield advantage.

{colsp=2}

Pikachu's Moves
|Startup
Jab|2
Dash Attack|5
*Grab|6
Dash Grab|9
Ftilt|5
Utilt|7
Dtilt|7
Fsmash|15
*Usmash|9
Dsmash|6
*Nair|7
*Fair|14
*Bair|8
*Uair|7
*Dair|18
{colsp=2}*Can be used OoS.

{colsp=3}

Diddy
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab1|3|-6
Jab1-2|3|-8
Jab1-3|3|-2
DA|9|+5
Ftilt|10|-17
Utilt|6|-9
Dtilt|4|-5
Fsmash|12|-15
Usmash|5|-19
DsmashF|6|-34
DsmashB|15|-26

{colsp=3}

Lucas
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|2|-15
DA|17|-18
Ftilt|6|-4
Utilt|4|-23
Dtilt|3|+4
Fsmash|14|-21
Usmash|28|-62
Dsmash1|20|-36

{colsp=3}

Marth
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|4|-13/-15
DA|13|-24/-28
Ftilt|8|-15/-18
Utilt|6|-21/-25
Dtilt|7|-2/-7
Fsmash|10|-24/-31
Usmash|12|-22/-30
UsmashFoot|12|-24
DsmashF|6|-43/-51
DsmashB|21|-29/-37
{colsp=3}*Numbers on the left are non-tippered and numbers on the right are tippered.

{colsp=3}

Metaknight
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|7|-3
DA|5|-17
Ftilt1|3|-12
Ftilt2|3|-17
Ftilt3|3|24
Utilt|8|-18
Dtilt|3|-3
Fsmash|24|-5
Usmash|8|-18
DsmashF|5|-18
DsmashB|10|-13

{colsp=3}

Mr. Game & Watch
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|4|-3
DA|6|-21
Ftilt|10|-18
Utilt|13|-7
Dtilt|6|-10
Fsmash|17|-13
UsmashF|25|-1
UsmashB|24|-2
Dsmash|15|-7

{colsp=3}

Pikachu
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|2|-12
DA|5|-35
Ftilt|5|-14
Utilt|7|-7
Dtilt|7|-2
Fsmash|15|-26
Usmash|9|-22
Dsmash|6|-25

{colsp=3}

Snake
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab1 | 3 | -4
Jab1-3 | 3 | -27
DA | 4 | -26
Ftilt1-2 | 4 | -13
Utilt | 6 | -20
Dtilt | 6| -19
Fsmash | 41| -24
Usmash | 11| -32

{colsp=3}

Sonic
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab1-3|3|-18
DA|4|-30
Ftilt1-2|6|-18
Utilt1-3|7|-20
Dtilt|6|-12
Fsmash|18|-13
Usmash|19|-31
DsmashF|17|-26
DsmashB|22|-22

{colsp=3}

Yoshi
| Startup | Shield Advantage
Jab|3|-7
DA|10|-21
Ftilt|6|-14
Utilt|7|-12
Dtilt|8|-6
Fsmash|14|-23
UsmashF|15|-15
UsmashB|11|-19
DsmashF|6|-31
DsmashB|22|-16

Zolga Owns · Jun 7, 2010

I approve of this thread!

1) I try to DI out(up and right/left) if caught in the air. If caught on the ground I try to DI out down and left/right.
2) OOS, I punish it by downtilt, downsmash if I'm close enough to his main hurtbox(yes I think like this, I blame PSA addiction when it first came out.), or a retreating fullhop/shorthop Thunderjolt.
3) I approach a jab happy Ike by full hop Thunderjolting, sheilddashing, or baiting with airdodge cross overs.

(Excuse my grammar/spelling mistakes I'm posting from my iPod Touch before school haha)

Ussi · Jun 7, 2010

Here are all of Ike's jab follow ups

Frame guaranteed
jab 1 > jab 1

1 frame of action (jump only, jumping lets you act 7 frames earlier)
jab 1 > grab

If you don't jump frame guaranteed
jab 1 > utilt
jab 1 > dsmash (front hit)

Mindgames:
jab 1 > ftilt
jab 1 > bair (gets jumpers)
jab 2 > jab 1
jab 1 > dtilt (either an accident on stage from failed jab canceling or off the ledge to a spike!)
jab 1 > Aether (jumpers that don't AD)

Lulz:
Jab 1 > Eruption (Don't really expect this :laugh:

anyways, when being jab'd SDI TOWARDS AND UP FROM IKE DIing away results in being combat walk'd

jab 1 has a 6 frame advantage on hit and jab 2 has a **1 frame advantage** on hit. jab 1 > jab 1 is a true combo while jab 2 > jab 1 you can jump > AD out of it. Also jab 2 > jab 1 is way easier to SDI towards and up from Ike since he moves forward further assisting you. Which is also why DIing AWAY from Ike is BAAAAD cause it HELPS Ike!!!

**I'm actually unsure about jab 2's frame advantage. All I know is Marth CAN DS out of jab 2 > jab 1 but you have to JUMP for jab 2 > jab 1 to NOT work

Against Pikachu jab 1 > jab 1 will be used most and since grabs don't really help Ike much vs Pikachu jab > grab won't happen as often cause Ike's instinctively do jab 1 > jab 1

when shielding Ike's jab, Ike has 2 mind games to do.

Jab 1 > Jab 2 its faster than Pikachu's shield grab
Jab 1 > jab 1 Pikachu can shield grab this but under reaction lag of expecting jab 2 it can happen
jab 1 > grab if Ike predicted you shielding he can grab as a mind game after jab 1 if you end up waiting for jab 2

if Ike does jab 2 to your shield, it's pretty much your advantage now. All Ike can do is time a a jab 3 to hope you attempt your punishment (Either OoS Nair or grab) if jab 3 hits your shield OoS Usmash is an option if he is facing you

Pikachu can space a fsmash to hit Ike while avoiding jab. tjolt get's canceled by jab. Careful with spacing cause Ike's jab 2 hits far ahead of him.

KayLo! · Jun 7, 2010

Oh yay, I've wanted someone to do something like this for a while. Good idea, Prime!

I'll contribute when I get home tonight.

The Truth! · Jun 7, 2010

Great idea Prime!

I think it might be a good idea if we invited the other boards peeps who have a good working knowledge on the move to come over and help us and answer questions. What Ussi did was perfect, and sometimes we end up with speculation that isn't always correct.

My biggest questions come from how you should punish it once its shielded. Sometimes you can't always do a move oos because the second jab knocks you too far, are there other options?

Also if the first jab hits you are you lifted off the ground? If so for how long.

Finally, what moves actually outrange each of jab 1, 2, and 3 (from his initial position). Im guessing only fsmash outranges jab 2.

Ussi · Jun 8, 2010

We should really talk about Lucario.. none of us can beat him apparently

and i mean we vote on the most annoying move Lucario has on us

Pikabunz · Jun 8, 2010

I think everything is pretty much covered after Ussi's post. I just want to point out that Pika can shield grab Jab 1 > Jab 2. You just gotta be really close.

We still need to decide on the best punishment options after shielding the jabs.

Here's the FA you get after shielding each jab.
*First number is shield drop advantage and the second is the OOS advantage.

Jab 1 (> Jab 2) - 2/9
Jab 1 (Canceled) - 5/12

Jab 2 (> Jab 3) - 7/14
Jab 2 (Canceled) - 9/16

Jab 3 - 17/24

There are some things you can do after shielding Jab 1, but I wouldn't try it. You gotta be pretty **** fast to react to Jab 1. After shielding Jab 2, you can shield drop and dsmash! You don't even have to be that close to Ike for this to hit. Some other punish options are the usual grab, upsmash, and nair, but you gotta be close for these to hit. You might be able to fair, but I'm not too sure. Shielding Jab 3 is where you get the most FA, but you still have to be fast when you punish. You only get a 17/24 FA and since Jab 3 has some shield push you probably won't be able to do a OOS punish. So with a 17 FA you can run and grab or run and upsmash. An fsmash is possible to hit with but you have to be like right in front of Ike when Jab 1 starts.

KayLo! · Jun 8, 2010

Yeah, I think the shield push on jab 3 is usually too much to do anything unless you have REALLY quick reaction time, but it's nice to know it's technically possible.

Was gonna contribute, but I think everybody's covered everything. Looking forward to seeing how you're gonna summarize all this in the OP, lol.

Lucario's dair would be good to discuss next I guess..... if people wanna work on that MU, I vote that move.

Ussi · Jun 8, 2010

Yes I vote on Lucario's dair as well

Stealth Raptor · Jun 9, 2010

for ikes jab, SDI hard up and away and jump out, i have never been punished doing this

The Truth! · Jun 9, 2010

Thanks for answering my questions, I think thats everything I had questions on. Stealth make sure to read the thread...ussi already covered that and it wasnt up and away.

Lucarios dair sounds good. At some point Id like to do some of G&Ws moves like bair and dair, and maybe nair and dtilt, some of those probably wont take long but would be good to know.

Edited for post below:

anyways, when being jab'd SDI TOWARDS AND UP FROM IKE DIing away results in being combat walk'd

Stealth Raptor · Jun 9, 2010

up and away works for me. with strong enough SDI none of ikes options work at all. then again if you dont have strong sdi he may be able to hit you anyways so *Shrug

King~ · Jun 10, 2010

run away, dash away, hell walk away

if you bait it that is, instead of letting yourself get shield pressured just get outta there and wait for it to be done and punish if you can or read his next move.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 10, 2010

for lucarios dair, quite simply, SDI the first hit. he will whiff the second and be left open to counter attack. it can be a pain to sdi it, but once you get it down you can make lucarios dair seem worthless. also sheild ***** his dair, we can oos nair and it will hit lucario before he can do anything. if he is coming down from high with dair, go to his side and uair. lucarios dair is one of those moves that seems scary as hell but is honestly easy to deal with if you dont get intimidated by it

Ussi · Jun 10, 2010

i want to see hit bubbles D:

what about OoS uair to punish?

Stealth Raptor · Jun 10, 2010

you can do that to. and you can search for the hitbubbles, and let me tell you.

THEY ARE ****ING RIDICULOUS! they dont go very far out sideways but my god the vertical extent is broken

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZghDI-AcKJc

Ussi · Jun 10, 2010

man that hits far :x always hated it.

what is the frame advantage at 0%, 50%, and 100%?

Pikabunz · Jun 10, 2010

I'll find frame advantages for this later. I still gotta do the Ike summary. =x

Dark 3nergy · Jun 10, 2010

Ussi said:
i want to see hit bubbles D:

what about OoS uair to punish?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTaboNQmyfg&feature=related

jump to 2:13

KayLo! · Jun 11, 2010

Add #t=2m13s (or whatever minutes/seconds you want) to the end of a YouTube link for it to auto-skip to that time.

Pikabunz · Jun 13, 2010

You get a 9 frame advantage after shielding the 2nd hit if stocks are even and percent is at 0%. 16 frames for OOS FA. With stocks still even, it can go as low as 7/14 FA when Lucario is at 150%. So no matter how strong his aura is you will still have time to punish with nair or upsmash. Although I think when his aura is high enough, dair's shield push will be strong enough to push your nair out of range. For this situation, it might be best to uair/bair if he's behind you or upsmash when he's in front.

KayLo! · Jun 13, 2010

Nair seems to work pretty consistently for me, but from playing RJ in friendlies yesterday, a good Lucario will quickly learn to space dair outside of nair range. With (their) good spacing, you'll whiff completely (and get daired again

) or at best get off a weak hit.

Uair works better, although the low hitstun might let him retaliate..... it never did when I used it, but I dunno if it's impossible. Bair works too, but depending on the angle, it can be easier for them to SDI out and punish.

So yeah, adding onto what Prime said, be careful of which option you pick. All can work, but some are better/worse depending on where he dairs from.

Leaf. · Jun 13, 2010

Would lucario be too fast for u-air>rising n-air to work?

I think I have been able to get it out when I fight lucario.
Wish I could fight Trela though, to test it out.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 13, 2010

uair-uair always works period. if you cant hit with a second uair and are out of position for anything else, just ff or jump away, he wont be able to touch you

Pikabunz · Jun 14, 2010

Is there anything else about dair we can talk about? Or can we move on to another move?

Ussi · Jun 14, 2010

let's move on, someone else vote a move for your problem MU

KayLo! · Jun 14, 2010

Diddy's everything. (I really think that MU is a lost cause for me.)

Leaf. · Jun 14, 2010

Wario's anything.

Nah, but does our dair beat the clap when they meet? Or just clash?

Pikabunz · Jun 14, 2010

Aerials never clank with each other.

How about one of G&W's moves like bair next?

Leaf. · Jun 14, 2010

I fought a GW in freindlies (didn't get his name)
I remember trying to react too early and was hit by the turtle while he was on the ground or something, by the last 3 hits of it.
Sounds good.

ElNoNombreHombre · Jun 14, 2010

K Prime said:
Aerials never clank with each other.

How about one of G&W's moves like bair next?

I like this one, since the traditional "Just PS the last hit" seems like a less reliable option due to our craptastic shield.

Leaf, anything specifically are you looking for? I've got a smashfest and I'm pretty sure at least one of the two Warios I've been fighting on a regular basis will be there. I can try and watch for it/get replays.

The Truth! · Jun 14, 2010

This thread might be helpful

GW bair is bad

But I was hoping for something more pika specific.

Leaf. · Jun 14, 2010

Oh, ok. I just wasn't punishing right when he was in the air.
What if he FFs it and doesn't have that lag time, though? Can he do that? EDIT: Nevermind, is continuing to watch the video.

@Hombre: Nothing I specifically need, just experience with it.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 14, 2010

the MAJOR problem with that video is none of those bairs were spaced well AT ALL! sure you could easily destroy any G&W that spaces THAT badly

The Truth! · Jun 14, 2010

I highly doubt you can space a multihit move like that well enough for it to be safe on shield. Even if they space it well enough you can SDI moves that hit your shield, just sdi towards and punish. I would like confirmation on that though.

To me the bigger issue is knowing what pika can punish with.

Pikabunz · Jun 14, 2010

SDI'ing in your shield is like so hard to do. I don't think anyone can do it consistently.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 14, 2010

oh duh i completely forgot about shield DI. i should actually look into it more. and its not that hard prime, but shield di does make it a lot more feasible. my point still stands about his video though, if he actually used shield DI it would make a lot more sense

KayLo! · Jun 14, 2010

I haven't seen anybody consistently shield DI in a match yet. x.o

If it's "not that hard," people would be doing it a LOT more, because that ****'s madd useful against pretty much every multihit move.

The Truth! · Jun 14, 2010

Isnt it nearly the same as tilting your shield? There arent many multihit moves with that much space, like pikas fair and olis nair theres no point in shield diing bc you can much punish it anyways. This seems like the kind of move youd want to do it for.

Stealth Raptor · Jun 14, 2010

its basically SDI while shielding. the lack of hitlag makes it a MUCH smaller window to do it though

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