Matchup Re-discussion (2010): Yoshi

Darkmusician · Jun 12, 2010

Zelda vs. Yoshi
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio : N/A (According to the previous match up chart)

Our Original Matchup Thread:
N/A (Thread is either very outdated or nonexistent)
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in Zelda's favor
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232771
(This thread is also not exactly up to date)

Zelda Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218082
Yoshi Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=249046

Summary:

N/A discussion in progress.

Start talking.

#HBC | Scary · Jun 12, 2010

It's been a long time since I've gotten to play this. I wish Poltergust lived closer to Tampa!

MrEh · Jun 12, 2010

Golden Rule

Don't chase him.

KuroganeHammer · Jun 12, 2010

MrEh said:
Golden Rule

Don't chase him.

Good advice.

Watch for pivot grabs and dair.

Yoshi can camp us with eggs. :laugh:

Other than that, Yoshi has mediocre killing power, but on the flip side, he's surprisingly heavy. Like. Really heavy.

His uair is like his strongest move, so watch out for it, since if done right, it can hit Zelda while she's on the ground. (Which is funny btw.)

Darkmusician · Jun 12, 2010

Don't underestimate the draw back of his F-smash.

His reverse moves are very fast, disorienting and long reaching so chase/follow up and approach with caution.

Eggs are pretty good tool for Yoshi. I don't think it's enough to completely out camp Zelda but by the same token full screen Dins doesn't do much to Yoshi either.

Kill moves I watch out for at high percents are the forward and up smash. Also watch out for double jump nairs off the edge. If done correctly it's really fast and you may miss the DI. And of course up air and the obvious spiking forward air.

JigglyZelda003 · Jun 12, 2010

does Yoshi get an advantage on YI?

Darkmusician · Jun 12, 2010

He most certainly does.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 12, 2010

I feel like this matchup is slightly in Zelda's favour on most stages, but woe be to the zelda who finds herself airborne above a Yoshi.

KuroganeHammer · Jun 13, 2010

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
I feel like this matchup is slightly in Zelda's favour on most stages, but woe be to the zelda who finds herself airborne above a Yoshi.

As long as we keep him on the ground. Our ground options are arguably better than his. But if he's just jumping around in the air, we don't really get to do much because of his manouverability in the air and the fact we don't have an air game.

Badly worded, but you get the idea.

HylianMageAuree · Jun 13, 2010

Hmm, this match-up isn't necessarily very difficult, but it's still pretty annoying.
It gets really hard if the Yoshi is really jumpy and evasive, but like MrEh said we should avoid chasing him anyway lol.
Din's Fires can catch him off-guard and snipe him out of his mistimed airdodges and aerials. Nayru's Love is great to get him off of us if we ever get caught in one of his multihits onstage (such as Dair or Jab) and he doesn't really have a lot of OoS options to punish her onstage. I know our Nair can beat a nice amount of his aerials but he still outplays us by far in the air, so look to punish him in his lands etc. I wouldn't really count on Fsmash too much since he doesn't really approach horizontally. I oddly find Ftilt working pretty well here to catch him out of his aerial movements and lands, but the ending lag is risky and the hurtbox extensions might hurt us as well.

I don't know too much about this match-up, but I do know this; if you get a Dtilt trip on Yoshi, reverse SH Bair him. It's a guaranteed sweet-spotted hit on his trip animation and works like a charm in this match-up. Not to mention we can Dtilt OoS on most of his (grounded) approaches. That's my two cents for this match-up.

Questions I have:
- Determining Usmash reliability: Which of his aerials beat/trade with our Usmash?
- Gimpability: I seriously don't get his double jump and its invincibility frames. Sometimes I hit him out of his DJ while other times it works as a super armor and I get punished lol.
- Egg camping/planking: How do we deal with it generally and what punish attacks/strategy mix-ups do we use?

Darkmusician · Jun 13, 2010

Zelda's attacks that deal with her sparkly hands do not clash. This includes her smashes.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 13, 2010

if you EVER see yoshi do his Down+B..... be ready to profit because Utilt, Uair and Usmash will all wreck it.

Toadallstar2 · Jun 13, 2010

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
if you EVER see yoshi do his Down+B..... be ready to profit because Utilt, Uair and Usmash will all wreck it.

Yeah one time I was playing online, and this yoshi down B'd, I expected it so I did my Uair when he was falling down, fell into it and I KO'd him. I find Yoshi's pretty easy. They're kinda predictable.

HylianMageAuree · Jun 13, 2010

Darkmusician said:
Zelda's attacks that deal with her sparkly hands do not clash. This includes her smashes.

Oops, I meant trade lol. Trades with her multihits are always bad so I was just wondering.

MrEh · Jun 14, 2010

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
if you EVER see yoshi do his Down+B..... be ready to profit because Utilt, Uair and Usmash will all wreck it.

Except Yoshi doesn't do DownB while airborne.

He uses it grounded.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 14, 2010

MrEh said:
Except Yoshi doesn't do DownB while airborne.

He uses it grounded.

so Uair's out. You can still get Utilt, or at least Usmash out w/ proper rxn time.

MrEh · Jun 14, 2010

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
You can still get Utilt, or at least Usmash out w/ proper rxn time.

No you don't. You have to be inhuman to beat out Yoshi's grounded Bomb on reaction. Bringing up prediction is a moot point, since anything can be punished with prediction. The situations that Yoshi uses the grounded Bomb will attempt to hit you with the starting animation of the bomb; he will not try to just fall on you with it.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 14, 2010

MrEh said:
No you don't. You have to be inhuman to beat out Yoshi's grounded Bomb on reaction. Bringing up prediction is a moot point, since anything can be punished with prediction. The situations that Yoshi uses the grounded Bomb will attempt to hit you with the starting animation of the bomb; he will not try to just fall on you with it.

I didn't know yoshi's had a start hitbox... I thought only bowser's did

Darkmusician · Jun 14, 2010

Yeah the start up (the rising part) can scoop you.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Jun 14, 2010

learn something new every day I guess.

I don't tend to play against a wide sampling of yoshis very often, so I guess I never noticed.

HylianMageAuree · Jun 15, 2010

I guess his Bomb can be used as an OoS move then in certain situations? The 1st hit hits on frame 7, so start-up lag of 6, which isn't too horrible.

MrEh · Jun 16, 2010

HylianMageAuree said:
I guess his Bomb can be used as an OoS move then in certain situations? The 1st hit hits on frame 7, so start-up lag of 6, which isn't too horrible.

OoS options....

With Yoshi?

Darkmusician · Jun 16, 2010

Yoshi's shield drop animation kills his OoS options.

PK-ow! · Jun 17, 2010

Yoshi trades a completely unstabbable shield, for having no OoS options.

He lost on that trade.

(Actually, I think Yoshi's shield does something unique with perfect shielding... it's hard to tell exactly what, though)

Anyway, this matchup is... kinda easy. Like, I picked up Yoshi recently (as in, I know how to hit people with stuff if they don't move suddenly), and... I'm just not seeing it.
You can SH double Lightning Kicks all over the place, and if Yoshi comes near you, chances are good you'll catch his tumourously oversized head. You can hit him even if it doesn't look like he's in range.

His ONLY defensive option to fear is 2-20/22 spot dodge, seriously.

Dun get grabbed, block stuff and **** OoS. Yoshi cannot make Zelda scared. Don't do unsafe stuff because you never have to. He can barely even juggle you. He's every kind of fail that Zelda needs to look like a good character.

Fingerp@ss · Jun 19, 2010

Why don't you guys go next door to the Yoshi boards and ask for input? Hmmmm?

Zelda has the advantage over Yoshi mainly due to killing power.

MrEh said:
Golden Rule

Don't chase him.

Yoshi can be chased, even with Zelda, you just need to watch your distance between him and you. If you were chasing me I'd probably try to pivot grab if close enough; reverse egg toss if you are further away; double jump cancel/b-reverse an egg lay to catch you off gaurd.

If you can predict any of these options, Yoshi get's punished. But in the end it's not worth trying to predict. If you are unfamiliar with the matchup, against a good Yoshi player at least, it is not the best idea to chase him.

Aerodrome said:
Good advice.

Watch for pivot grabs and dair.

Yoshi can camp us with eggs.

Other than that, Yoshi has mediocre killing power, but on the flip side, he's surprisingly heavy. Like. Really heavy.

His uair is like his strongest move, so watch out for it, since if done right, it can hit Zelda while she's on the ground. (Which is funny btw.)

Don't worry about dair. That move sucks.

If Yoshi is camping you then you are doing it WRONG! Eggs can be reflected backs and it's not a rapid fire projectile by any means.

Yoshi is heavy with the combo of having probably the sickest aerial movement out of every character. Zelda has pretty good killing power and options making it easier for her to kill.

Darkmusician said:
Don't underestimate the draw back of his F-smash.

Eggs are pretty good tool for Yoshi. I don't think it's enough to completely out camp Zelda but by the same token full screen Dins doesn't do much to Yoshi either.

[COLOR="cyan"~]A single Dins, whatever that is, is enough to stop Yoshi's camping eggs.[/COLOR][/I]

Kill moves I watch out for at high percents are the forward and up smash. Also watch out for double jump nairs off the edge. If done correctly it's really fast and you may miss the DI. And of course up air and the obvious spiking forward air.

[I][COLOR="Cyan"]~No one does edge jump nair trick from what I've scene. You shouldn't really be standing at the ledge while Yoshi is hanging there. If anything he'll just try to push you back with the egg tosses of the ledge. I would say up smash is more or a damage dealing move no really a killing move. [/COLOR]

HylianMageAuree said:
Questions I have:
- Determining Usmash reliability: Which of his aerials beat/trade with our Usmash?

None.

- Gimpability: I seriously don't get his double jump and its invincibility frames. Sometimes I hit him out of his DJ while other times it works as a super armor and I get punished lol.

The super armor is probably the strongest at the very beginning of the DJ. It also depends of the strength of the attack he get's hit with. He get's hit out of his DJ from stonger attacks obviously.
- Egg camping/planking: How do we deal with it generally and what punish attacks/strategy mix-ups do we use?

Best to just back off and do that witch fire ball thing, hopefully he comes back on stage. If the Yoshi is planking then.....sh*t?

MrEh said:
Except Yoshi doesn't do DownB while airborne.

He uses it grounded.

I do it a lot.

HylianMageAuree said:
I guess his Bomb can be used as an OoS move then in certain situations? The 1st hit hits on frame 7, so start-up lag of 6, which isn't too horrible.

From a shield, I'd roll away....or someplace, spotdodge, or spotdodge with a jab. That's probably the best he can do out of shield. Yoshi is a spotdodger, why? because he has the best spotdodge in the game. Usually a jab is to be expected out of a spotdodge.

I'm bored now, you guys bore me. Go away.

Kataefi · Aug 2, 2010

Reviving so we can get more yoshis here and also... let's talk stages - are there particular stages that benefit zelda moreso than yoshi etc etc etc...

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Aug 2, 2010

can't speak for everyone, but I do better against yoshis if I have more platforms.

GodAtHand · Aug 2, 2010

I aim for either a smaller stage, or a very large stage.

The smaller stage allows Zelda to get in easier which makes the matchup easier overall. The really large stages make it easier for you to camp the Yoshi while he will usually be too far away to camp you effectively.

Delta-cod · Aug 3, 2010

JigglyZelda003 said:
does Yoshi get an advantage on YI?

Darkmusician said:
He most certainly does.

No.

Aerodrome said:
As long as we keep him on the ground. Our ground options are arguably better than his. But if he's just jumping around in the air, we don't really get to do much because of his manouverability in the air and the fact we don't have an air game.

Badly worded, but you get the idea.

I don't like to stay airborne against Zelda because of Usmash. It's gay and I hate it.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
so Uair's out. You can still get Utilt, or at least Usmash out w/ proper rxn time.

Not if you're hit by the first part.

PK-ow! said:
Yoshi trades a completely unstabbable shield, for having no OoS options.

He lost on that trade.

(Actually, I think Yoshi's shield does something unique with perfect shielding... it's hard to tell exactly what, though)

Anyway, this matchup is... kinda easy. Like, I picked up Yoshi recently (as in, I know how to hit people with stuff if they don't move suddenly), and... I'm just not seeing it.
You can SH double Lightning Kicks all over the place, and if Yoshi comes near you, chances are good you'll catch his tumourously oversized head. You can hit him even if it doesn't look like he's in range.

His ONLY defensive option to fear is 2-20/22 spot dodge, seriously.

Dun get grabbed, block stuff and **** OoS. Yoshi cannot make Zelda scared. Don't do unsafe stuff because you never have to. He can barely even juggle you. He's every kind of fail that Zelda needs to look like a good character.

This is incredibly wrong.

Yoshi's head is invincible during Usmash, meaning if you're spamming your kicks, I will spam my Usmash, which means free damage.

Our shield is pretty bad, so we won't use it much. Spotdodge is pretty ****, but Zelda's attacks last forever, so it's bad to that, anyways.

We can most certainly juggle Zelda, lol. Slow falling character is slow.

Don't let us get a lead, or we will camp you and then you'll have to approach, which is bad for you. In fact, I'd camp you regardless.

Eggs set up for things. Off stage, expect an egg toss > follow up. On stage, eggs will be used to cause reactions. They also do some nifty damage (9%).

Zelda should never ever be able to Din's Fire camp Yoshi ever.

Darkmusician · Aug 3, 2010

Yoshi has an advantage on Yoshi's Island vs Zelda. He can make better use of the dynamics of the level whereas Zelda not nearly as much. She is more hindered by the level if anything.

Yoshi's Down B can be canceled on the slopes both on the base of the stage and on the platform so long as the angle is steep enough. From the cancel he can go into other moves right away. For the platform it depends on how far the platform is tilted. He can do this on other stages with slopes as well again provided that the slopes are at the correct angle. The downward slants give Yoshi an edge on his recovery. In most cases it's minor but it does help. The slants don't do much for Zelda. On stage it can disrupt spacing and ledge hop up airs and kicks can get snuffed by the slopes.

The stage is also roomy and gives Yoshi a lot of room to live. It does benefit Zelda as well given her light weight but unless you catch him with a fresh up air or kick him near the edges he will generally out tank.

MrEh · Aug 3, 2010

I like seeing Yoshi slide of ledges with his Bomb. It looks funny.

Delta-cod · Aug 4, 2010

Darkmusician said:
Yoshi has an advantage on Yoshi's Island vs Zelda. He can make better use of the dynamics of the level whereas Zelda not nearly as much. She is more hindered by the level if anything.

Yoshi's Down B can be canceled on the slopes both on the base of the stage and on the platform so long as the angle is steep enough. From the cancel he can go into other moves right away. For the platform it depends on how far the platform is tilted. He can do this on other stages with slopes as well again provided that the slopes are at the correct angle. The downward slants give Yoshi an edge on his recovery. In most cases it's minor but it does help. The slants don't do much for Zelda. On stage it can disrupt spacing and ledge hop up airs and kicks can get snuffed by the slopes.

The stage is also roomy and gives Yoshi a lot of room to live. It does benefit Zelda as well given her light weight but unless you catch him with a fresh up air or kick him near the edges he will generally out tank.

The slope thing is the biggest gimmick ever. It shouldn't ever come as a surprise because you have the start up of the move to indicate what he's doing, then all you have to do is not stand near him. It serves SOME purpose on the ledge, but even then it's eh.

It's good for the room, but the platformand shyguys messes with eggs and stuff. The slants mess with out grab and ground game a bit, which Yoshi prefers. This is one or our worse stages, at least to me. We usually don't go here, ever.

I'm not too sure on it from Zelda's side, but from Yoshi's angle, I would never go here ever. I'd rather counterpick to Lylat.

MrEh said:
I like seeing Yoshi slide of ledges with his Bomb. It looks funny.

Lol.

Darkmusician · Aug 4, 2010

I wouldn't doubt that Yoshi players wouldn't like Yoshi's Island for the reasons you listed.

However if Zelda did take Yoshi there or vice the versa he would still have an advantage over Zelda. At least he gains something from the stage. Zelda gains nothing but trouble on that level.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Aug 4, 2010

well that's a good point, if most yoshis hate yoshi's island too, then maybe it comes out about even for us.

Lylat's gotta be his advantage though.

Delta-cod · Aug 4, 2010

Darkmusician said:
I wouldn't doubt that Yoshi players wouldn't like Yoshi's Island for the reasons you listed.

However if Zelda did take Yoshi there or vice the versa he would still have an advantage over Zelda. At least he gains something from the stage. Zelda gains nothing but trouble on that level.

Fair enough.

Sonic The Hedgedawg said:
well that's a good point, if most yoshis hate yoshi's island too, then maybe it comes out about even for us.

Lylat's gotta be his advantage though.

Lylat is an amazing stage and I love it.

Darkmusician · Aug 4, 2010

Yeah...FingerP@ss likes him some Lylat.

indigestible_wad · Aug 8, 2010

I don't particularly like YI. The platform bugs me. Half the time it disrupts my eggs, and if anyone wants to camp on the other side of the stage, it's like trying to get past a wall, especially if the character has projectiles. Sure there's downb shenanigans, but you're basically getting something flashy, which doesn't really compensate for losing your ability to camp.

Sonic The Hedgedawg · Aug 8, 2010

indigestible_wad said:
I don't particularly like YI. The platform bugs me. Half the time it disrupts my eggs, and if anyone wants to camp on the other side of the stage, it's like trying to get past a wall, especially if the character has projectiles. Sure there's downb shenanigans, but you're basically getting something flashy, which doesn't really compensate for losing your ability to camp.

I think I'll have to agree with this. The shuy guys and tilting of the middle platform can kill yoshi's camp game. I really think this stage hurts youshi more than zelda on a purely mechanics based veiwpoint.

The problem is, 95% of the zelda community treats Yoshi's island like a toxic plague. I know the side of the stage can really screw up our recovery..... but Zelda's recovery sucks anyway, and the location that Zelda needs to be in to have the stage interfere with her recovery is an awful position for zelda most of the time ANYWAY.

I'm not saying that it's a stage Zeldas should always love to play on, but it certainly isn't an insta-lose, or even an insta-disadvantage for her.

KayLo! · Aug 8, 2010

The high ceiling hurts her a lot in this matchup imo...... nothing to do with the ledge.

Zelda's primary killers are vertical, so Yoshi's gonna live forever barring a badly DI'd dsmash.

Darkmusician · Aug 9, 2010

That and Zelda gets screwed by the slants both of the platform, onstage and the edges.

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