Living on the Edge

Ryos4 · Jun 24, 2010

Intro:
As I have been organizing the "Ultimate Pit Guide," I have found it lacking a few things that people might find helpful. This is part 1 of a series of threads that will be used make the Ultimate Pit Guide more useful to new players and possibly even the older ones. So i pulled a thread i made in AiB that never got any real attention. Hopefully it will here.

Anyway the point of this thread is to compile a list of ledge options, recovery options, and possibly gimping options. Which will hopefully help Pits to become less predictable when off stage. Also with the help of input from other players, i would also like to go in depth about each option for character, stage, and other specific problems or benefits each option may have, allowing Pit to easier find what options are the best for any given situation.

Ledge Options
Basics:

Roll
Jump
Stand
Ledge Attack

Stalling:

Release/Regrab
WoI
Planking

Ledge Hop/Release (Defensive):

Air Dodge
Arrow
Mirror Shield?

Ledge Hop/Release Offensive:

Fair
Bair
Uair
Angel Rings
Retreating Bair>Fair>Fair (My personal favorite)

Recovery Strategies:

Gliding: Returning to stage high to avoid the edge and edge guarding.
WoI: Alternative to gliding, but not very safe or smart.
Arrow Stun: DI back toward stage. Arrow>Jump>Arrow>Jump>Fair
Under Stage: Flying below stages to prevent gimping in WoI if its forced.
Under Stage "Fake Out": Act like your going to fly to the other side then turn around mid flight to trick opponents.
Recovering Low: Falling below the stage can deter gimping from characters with poor off stage options.

Cornered at the Edge:

Defensive
Arrow
Roll
Hop on ledge
Nair>Utilt

Gimping:

Spiking with Dtilt
* Spikable Characters on the ledge - List Characters that can be spiked with Pits down tilt at the edge of the stage.
Mirror Shield: Attacks & Recovery Moves
*A Guide to Pit's Mirror Shield - I Reject
-Reflectable Recoveries

Red=Unsure

Bowser: Up Special
Captain Falcon:Side Special (Attack portion, be above to not get hit in the head.
Diddy Kong:Side special (kick), Up Special
Donkey Kong: Up Special
Falco: Side Special (end), Up Special
Fox: Side Special (end), Up Special
G&W: Up Special (only if sweet spotting ledge, if not useless)
Ganondorf: Up Special (End, purple attack)
Ice Climbers: Side Special, Up Special
Ike: Side Special, Up Special
Jiggly Puff: Side Special (if used to recover)
King Dedede: None
Kirby: Up Special
Link: Up Special
Lucario: None
Lucas: Up Special (PK Thunder 1 and 2)
Luigi: Up Special, Side Special, Down Special (not really helpful)
Mario: Up Special
Marth: Up Special, Side Special, Neutral Special
Meta Knight: Up Special, Glide Attack, Side Special, Neutral Special
Ness: Up Special (PK Thunder 1 and 2)
Olimar: None?
Peach: Up Special (Only if sweet spot ledge attempt)
Pikachu: Side Special, Up Special?
Pit: Glide Attack
Pokemon Trainer:
-Charizard: Glide Attack, Up Special
-Squirtle: Up Special, Side Special
-Ivysaur: None?
ROB: None
Samus: Up Special
Sheik: Up Special (reappear)
Sonic: Spin Dash Recovery
Toon Link: Up Special
Wario: Up Special (only with horizontal movement)
Wolf: Side Special (end), Up Special
Yoshi: None (Unless he aerials during his jump)
Zelda: Up Special (Reappear)
ZSS: Down Special (kick)
Wing Refresh/Renewal: Use a Wing Refresh to chase off stage for added chase speed and range, fair most common canceling of WoI.
Wall Of Pain: Fair or Bair(weak)
Arrows: Using arrows to prevent people from gaining recovery momentum.
Character Specifics:
-Ness & Lucas: Arrow can cancel PK Thunder(Bolt)
-Sonic & Snake: Can be grabbed out of their Up Special, not pummeled, and then released. This leaves them unable to jump or use their up special again unless damaged. Snake can attempt to blow himself up with C4.
-Snake: C4 recovery, WoI can be used to nudge snake too far from his C4. WoI can also be used to Cancel all of Snakes vertical momentum in his C4 recovery. Foot stooling his C4 recovery.
-Olimar, ZSS, & Ivysaur: Simple edge hog can kill tether recoveries reliant characters. Though beware their ability to easily kill you if they hit you while you dont have invincibility frames.

Ryos4 · Jun 24, 2010

Reserved Post for some reason or another.

Hopefully we can get some discussion going on this. I know there are more recovery options out there. Also the need to start compiling gimping options.

Gadiel_VaStar · Jun 24, 2010

This seems like a great idea! I like the idea of discussing Pit's gimping abilities as I don't think they are fully utilized. Don't forget that we can also go under the stage while recovering.

Ryos4 · Jun 24, 2010

*Added

Also i know that there's a list of spikable characters on the ultimate guide already, but is there a list of reflectable recoveries? Probably would be important to at least put a link here if not the whole list.

Nitrix · Jun 25, 2010

Personally I use alot of

- B-air chain to gimp

- drop then U-Air to regrab or arrow

- Jump to D-air to possible glide

- Standard get up attack

- Drop then jump to SH arrows

The Pit boards are finally getting some activity going on.

Ryos4 · Jun 25, 2010

Crap double post.

Ryos4 · Jun 25, 2010

Weak or Sweet spot bair chain?

Also Jump>Dair>Glide for what? I'm assuming ledge option.

pitskeyblade · Jun 27, 2010

About the spikable characters list- Marth was on the list of characters that can't be spiked, but I've done that to Marth before (more by accident than design lol). I'm pretty sure that if you catch some opponents when they're trying to roll back onstage then you'll be able to spike them down. Or if they drop down below the edge and attempt to plank.

edit: OK the list just talks about characters actually hanging on the ledge. Nevermind.

Ryos4 · Jun 28, 2010

Added reflectable recoveries in, however it needs to be looked over. Red is either unsure if it will work, unsure if it will help, or unsure if there is any recovery moves Pit can reflect.

Also added character specific section, needs more input there with only Ness and Lucas currently there. I know Pit can do more to certain people.

pitskeyblade · Jun 28, 2010

Pit's glide attack can be reflected and I'm pretty sure Olimar's up special as well.

Pitzer · Jun 28, 2010

You can also drop off arrow, jump, arrow, WoI for hit and run. You can also Wingdash on to the stage then side-b, but that is risky.

Ryos4 · Jun 28, 2010

I dont think you can reflect tether recoveries, can you? Because they automatically latch on doing no damage. Soo it makes me think the only time you could reflect it is when there's no point to.

But for olimar, i do remember taking damage even when he just latches on. Though isnt he already latched on when you take damage? Can you reflect that?

Patriotic Zero (PTZR) said:
You can also drop off arrow, jump, arrow, WoI for hit and run. You can also Wingdash on to the stage then side-b, but that is risky.

Okay i have no idea what your talking about, is that a recovery? A gimp? A ledge recovery? I think it should required if your going to contribute to clearly state what section its for. If not a video would work too.

Katana_koden · Jun 28, 2010

Mirror shield reflects.

Captain Falcon: None? (you can do his side B attack frames, but also above him so he doesn't hit your head.

Diddy Kong:Side special (kick), Up Special? ( you can do his up b)

Falco: Side Special (end), Up Special

Fox: Side Special (end), Up Special
G&W: Up Special? (would it help?) ( yes, stops sweet spotting and minor push away.
Ganondorf: None? ( his Up b final hit, hard to gimp it between a sweet spot, otherwise you're just being an arse)

Ice Climbers: Side Special, Up Special? ( yes)

Jiggly Puff: None? (pound as a recovery)

King Dedede: None? (Nah, unless wings count)

Lucario: None? (none)

Luigi: Up Special, Side Special, Down Special? (would it even help?) (barely, just punish the lag)

Marth: Up Special, Side Special? (yup)

Olimar: None? ( his up b can be reflected)
Peach: None? ( up b) ( side b turns her on at the end, useless)
Pikachu: Side Special, Up Special? (yes)
Pit: Glide Attack? ( lol yes) ( and up b initial start up)
Pokemon Trainer:
-Charizard: Up Special? (yes) and glide attack

-Ivysaur: None? ( tether's search for edge first I think, not sure) (Up b yes)
ROB: None? (none)
Samus: Up Special? (yes) ( tether's search for edge first I think, not sure)
Sheik: None? ( end of up b can) ( tether's search for edge first I think, not sure)
Toon Link: Up Special ( tether's search for edge first I think, not sure)
Wario: None? (up b)

Yoshi: None? (none)
Zelda: None? (up b does a marth up b glitch at the end of it) ( and yes)
ZSS: None? ( tether's search for edge first I think, not sure)

Ryos4 · Jun 28, 2010

Thx for the assist

I dont know if this is true but i noticed that Peach's ledge grab has like no range when floating backwards on her umbrella, that might making reflecting her really useful if shes trying to sweet spot.

Also what about ZSS and her Down B Kick?

Katana_koden · Jun 28, 2010

ZSS kick can be reflected same as diddy.

Forgot, sonic uses down b for momentum which can be reflected.

Neutral B bounces straight up like peaches side b.

Ryos4 · Jun 28, 2010

Wow i did forget sonic. lol.

And when you say bounce straight up. Meaning its kinda useless? Also do they gain alot of height so it could possibly be used to save teammates without actually damaging them?

Katana_koden · Jun 28, 2010

They gain the same amount they usually get when they hit something.

Excellent idea, pit can become a wall that used to work in melee for peach. Or Sonic neutral b wall climbing.
----------\-------
----------->Pit jump 2
----------/------
---------/---------
---Sonic---------------- (theory failed, pit 2nd jump usually around here)
lag^sonic\------
--------------\----------
----------->-pit 1 jump
----------/---------
-Sonic1-/------------ this was my theory, but the lag may be too long exceeding pits jump height. Therefore pit is falling more or using too many jumps.

Ryos4 · Jun 28, 2010

But it can still work for the first initial hit. Which may very well save Sonic.

Katana_koden · Jun 29, 2010

SO about the Q&A thread. How to pressure your opponent, or get to the other side when cornered on/by the edge, but avoiding a roll.

Usually I jump with dair like mk, and maneuver my way to the other side. Same as the ledge jump.

Other rare time I sidestep to a nair, for a forward momentum, but it feels so risky.

Alot of people can run to the other side if I glide under stage and repeat the process...

Any better options you guys can come up with.

pitskeyblade · Jun 29, 2010

^ I would suggest planking again. Doesn't the Dair have this really bad landing lag?

Katana_koden · Jun 29, 2010

I usually full hop with it. Even if its a full hop dair, it usually hits grounded opponents.

When in the air, I have options like Fast fall fair on the other side, glide, or wing stall to attack.
I also fast fall evade some times for a little mix up too.

On the edge, I ledge jump, not ledge release to dair.

dualseeker · Jun 29, 2010

You could try mindgaming people into thinking you'll glide under to the other side, and they run to the other side. But you turn back and go to the opposite ledge. That usually works for me with Fast characters.

Also, if you immediately use Dair after a SH, you won't get the landing lag. It's helpful when you want to launch your opponent in the air and get a combo. It also has a lot of range, so you don't have to worry too much about getting shield grabbed. You can also land behind them to cause a bit of pressure. But, this only works on Flat Stages. So, if any stage isn't flat, or the stage tilts, it's not a good idea to use SH Dair a lot. You could replace it with Full Hop Dair, since it does hit large opponents regardless.

What Katana does when he is in the air are also good moves to use.

Katana_koden · Jun 30, 2010

Yeah the short hop dair, I need more control on that.

I know that it grab punishes if I instant short hop dair to a Nair. But There are times I miss my timing with the jump and fall with the nair and lag. Or I don't jump and gets grabbed. Somehow SH fair doesn't provide the same safety... Or maybe that too is my timing.

Options so far onstage is:
1) SH Dair > Nair ?
2) FH Dair > Glide/ FFAE (fast fall aerial evade)/ Wing stall/ FF fair or bair?
3)?

Options off stage:
1) Plank till enough spacing?
2) Glide to other side?
3) WoI fake-out for fast characters/ illusions/ Quick attacks?
4) Ledge jump to an onstage strategy?

Ryos4 · Jun 30, 2010

Should I put a section up for being cornered on stage?

pitskeyblade · Jun 30, 2010

Ryos4 said:
Should I put a section up for being cornered on stage?

I think it would be a good idea.

Ryos4 · Jul 2, 2010

Okay well ill get started on that.

So anyone have any other suggestions on what to do when cornered while standing on the ledge?

Also any characters specific gimp?

dualseeker · Jul 2, 2010

Well, the only thing I can think of right now that could kill us from the ledge is Falco's Dair or Bair. If we're at a high percentage. Also, don't stand on the ledge too long, since Marth's correctly spaced tipper Fsmash can cause unneeded damage

pitskeyblade · Jul 2, 2010

For the character specific, you can just edgehog Olimar and Ivysaur. Mind that you don't attempt it when you have really high damage, or you might get spiked downwards.

Ryos4 · Jul 8, 2010

Any other ideas out there?

Also anyone wanna take a shot at going more in depth on any of the options already on the list?

MysteriousSilver · Jul 8, 2010

Plank carefully against GnW, his dash attack can stage spike people off the ledeg on certain stages.

On the other hand, this means it's easy to bait a dash attack, which is laggy and just begging for an Uair.

pitskeyblade · Jul 9, 2010

On the Snake C4 thingy: I just found this out and it's awesome in my opinion. I was trying to gimp my friend's Snake by continuously knocking him off of his cypher and I was hanging on the edge so he couldn't grab it. Well, somehow in that match we ended up scuffling for the edge, and I was planking. Snake was trying to gimp me out of my WoI by Bairing me out of them. Well, he made the mistake of letting go of his cypher to Bair me. He tried to use the C4 to recover his cypher and I used my WoI again to recover to the edge (he knocked me out of them during the first few frames). The air pressure from my WoI pushed him far enough away from his C4 that he didn't get caught in the explosion and he died. Goooooood stuff.

Ryos4 · Jul 12, 2010

I like how there are so many ways to just screw with snakes recovery. C4 and all.

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