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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #1: Diddy Kong

Marc

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In the buildup towards the next tier list we’ve decided to do a weekly character discussion again. This gives us more time to exchange thoughts as well as hopefully allowing us to provide an interesting read for the general public. In the next two months we’ll cover the 16 characters in the A, B and C tiers, after which we expect to roll right into the tier list discussion and voting.

The order is kind of random, but the characters we'll cover are:
A: Snake, Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers, Marth, Wario
B: King Dedede, Pikachu, Olimar, Lucario, Mr. Game & Watch
C: Pit, Toon Link, Zero Suit Samus, Kirby, R.O.B.

BBR members touched down on subjects such as:
-Strengths/weaknesses
-Matchups
-Tournament performance
-Current tier list placement and potential for the future

It is encouraged to form your own opinion and discuss away. :)
 

Sky`

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The only thing I can really say is that Diddy Kong doesn't thrive at MLG, and more than likely will be taking a step down from third to fourth in the next tier list.
 

Mew2King

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I think Diddy is the best still at least on neutrals

Gnes beat Dojo this weekend at phase 10

also interesting is this Sonic named X just beat DSF 2-0 and Tyrant 2-0 (2 stocked tyrant first game), then I beat him 3-0, then he beat Tyrant in losers finals 3-2 last stock high %, then I beat him 3-2. I was about to get 3-0d but I made a big comeback. Got a 3 stock 3rd game too. He is by far the best sonic. He also got 2nd in teams barely barely beating DSF and Tyrant in a rematch set that went to game 5 using a Sonic + Rob team vs double MK.
 

DtJ Hilt

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also interesting is this Sonic named X just beat DSF 2-0 and Tyrant 2-0 (2 stocked tyrant first game), then I beat him 3-0, then he beat Tyrant in losers finals 3-2 last stock high %, then I beat him 3-2. I was about to get 3-0d but I made a big comeback. Got a 3 stock 3rd game too. He is by far the best sonic. He also got 2nd in teams barely barely beating DSF and Tyrant in a rematch set that went to game 5 using a Sonic + Rob team vs double MK.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the Diddy discussion. Let's keep things on topic.
 

swordgard

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Diddy is overrated in so many ways. He is a good character, but once you learn how to use the bananas for yourself, they actually help other characters a whole lot. Most people are nowhere near as technical as the diddy opponents they play agaisnt, and do not know their own banana combos which puts them at a disadvantage.

Bananas are mostly useful to create openings, and this is where diddy really shines because of his bananas he gets to enter the defense of even the best characters. On the other hand, he does not possess many strong follow-ups which the openings would allow him to use in otherwise unsafe situation. Characters with strong follow-ups are the one that benefit the most from the bananas, for example fox, gets a 20% combo off every single banana throw(banana>run up smash) and a garanteed kill setup which is easy to land. Bananas are also useful for racking up damage, but since some of these characters already rack up damage fast but only have trouble landing kill moves, the bananas actually helps them more than it hinders them.

Furthermore, Diddy has no strong kill moves until ridiculous %, while he gets gimped terribly easily by pretty much any multi-hit move or weak hit. Once you take that into account and how the bananas can be used to setup your own less reliable but strong kill moves, Diddy becomes much easier to play against.




(Ice climbers with a banana are broken vs diddy btw).


EDIT: If WC loses to sonic, its not because Sonic is good. WC is bad, end of the line.
 

MetalMusicMan

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I feel like Diddy's placement at 3rd on the tier list is pretty solid.

Citing his lack of kill power isn't really a good argument in my opinion, since he has some of the best damage racking in the game, and his kill moves all have guaranteed setups from the bananas. Most characters in this game have few or no killsetups to speak of, so Diddy's bananas give him a huge advantage in that department, despite his lack of kill "power".

He also heavily shuts down the options of several characters, again, bananas are a very powerful tool to have. There is definitely some merit to saying that most non-Diddy players don't fully understand how to use bananas yet, but even then, Diddy definitely seems to have some of the best tools to use with Bananas, not to mention he is the one responsible for spawning them in the first place.

I do not believe Diddy should be above Snake; I feel Snake is very well-placed at 2nd, despite how much talk there is lately of him being "crappy".

So again, I think he's very good in the third place as of right now.
 

swordgard

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How many of you actually played diddy for at least 6 months as secondary to get used to the bananas? I would say very few people did.
 

MetalMusicMan

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I could definitely use a lot more Diddy practice, I won't deny that. I'm not sure what that has to do with his placing on the list though :\

Are you saying that if everyone played Diddy for a while, he would always be worse than any other "good character" because they would be able to do far better things with his own bananas?

If so, I feel like that argument is inherently flawed, since he's responsible for when the bananas come out in the first place, so will always have superior control of them.
 

swordgard

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I could definitely use a lot more Diddy practice, I won't deny that. I'm not sure what that has to do with his placing on the list though :\

Are you saying that if everyone played Diddy for a while, he would always be worse than any other "good character" because they would be able to do far better things with his own bananas?

If so, I feel like that argument is inherently flawed, since he's responsible for when the bananas come out in the first place, so will always have superior control of them.
He will have an easier time getting them, but any use of the banana actually involves putting it into a spot where you opponent can get it.

Yes, many characters are much better than diddy can be, at least when he has one banana vs when you have one. He probably has better 2 banana locks and combos, however since you can use 1 banana while he has one in his hand, I feel like he should be losing many many more matchups than he is now.
 

TheMike

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There was a big hype for Diddy when the current Tier List was about to be released due to tournament perfomance, which made the community see Diddy's potential. However, I don't think he is the third best in the game at the moment. He is very good, but weakness like the metagame being nearly based only on the bananas(once the opponent has their control, Diddy isn't so good), predictable recovery and not as good kill options as some top tier characters can make him drop one or two positions on the next tier list, in my opinion.
 

MetalMusicMan

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Swordgard, Your argument is sensible, but I have yet to see it actually happen.

But let's give you the benefit of the doubt here for arguments sake. Its entirely possible that what you are saying is true, but even if it was, if the vast majority is still falling victim to his tricks, then shouldn't he still be highly placed?

After all, isn't the tier list a representation of the current meta game, rather than a representation of what a few might think is possible but have yet to prove?





I also don't think his recovery is that bad-- you can do a lot to mix it up with his side-B.
 

Crow!

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Remember this?



Diddy's only got two players doing especially well with him. After that he falls below Marth, then all the A tier characters (save Snake) kind of meld together. As I see it, there are two logical explanations for this:

1. Diddy Kong is a gimmick character, so that his success depends on there not being many amazing Diddy players to practice against. For theorycraft in support, see Swordgard's explanation above. Also, Gnes has admitted to this being the case several times.

2. Diddy Kong is strangely unpopular. Theorycraft in support of this includes that Diddy is an unusually technical character that just doesn't chime well with most players.

I always found the second option above to be unlikely. And now, Rajam's posts showing popularity at various performance levels makes it objectively clear: Diddy Kong is quite a popular character, basically tied with Falco at #4 most used.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278264


So, no, I don't think Diddy that amazing. Exept for one superstar, he's not performing better than the rest of A tier, even with the very plausible extended gimmick effects still mostly in place. And we've seen even the best Diddy mains who go up against players who have studied the matchup running into trouble lately.
 

Espy Rose

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Diddy Kong seems at a standstill in terms of results and capabilities. He seems even in comparison to other high tier characters, and has himself a handful of problems that can be exploited in tournaments (shifting banana control, for example).

Diddy Kong also struggles to net himself KOs so long as the opponent is able to avoid his banana set ups, and has a fairly straightforward recovery that is easy to abuse for more damage and even a potential KO/gimp.

I can't see him moving anywhere but down on whatever tier list may come soon, but at the same time, staying in the third spot is still reasonable, given the positive attributes in Diddy Kong's game.

EDIT: If WC loses to sonic, its not because Sonic is good. WC is bad, end of the line.
lol.
I'm inclined to agree.

=====

Also, what Crow! said. Diddy's tournament performance is more or less the same as other high tier characters, with the exception of ADHD (and maybe Gnes).
 

The Real Inferno

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Let's not kid ourselves. Diddy Kong is an amazing character who simply has a glaring weakness. He ironically has the same weakness as two of his A tier brethren (Marth and Falco) which is his recovery. On stage though, he can create a tough to plow through fortress of defense with a banana positioned in front of him and one in hand. His worst matchups come from odd places on the tier list, but I think he is still unquestionably a top tier character. He may fall below Falco or Marth on the tier list but he's definitely a top 5 character and he solidly should cling to this position.

On another note, I don't see why we can't do three of these a week. Does everyone just have broken fingers?
 

ShadowLink84

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Diddy has two glaring weaknesses Inferno.
The second being that he isnt a flexible character, so if he is CP'ed, he has a really difficult time.
it's undeniable that Diddy is a great character, but I sincerely doubt he is as good as Snake.
I can see him as the 4th best character in the game, simply because of the fact that proper CP's against Diddy can really mess up his game.
 

ShadowLink84

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wait wait

just to make this clear

marth is GARBAGE compared to diddy

i hope u all realize this

Gnes "admitting that" doesn't mean anything. He wants people to think his character isn't as good as it really is
I disagree actually, Marth is a rather solid character, he is also much more flexible than Diddy.
I think you're clouded by your whole "I think Diddy is the best character" shtig.
 

Mew2King

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i think marth sucks and diddy is amazing. Marth can't kill, you can outcamp him, gimp him way easier, and Diddy I feel is the best character on stage in the game and has the strongest fast counterattack (banana + something) which keeps his moves fresh and deals damage easily, safe, and fast.
 

AlphaZealot

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Diddy's recovery is very good. The only case where this is not true is vs MK, and even then Diddy's recovery is probably better then most characters especially with the side-b-face-grab.

3rd best in the game though? No. That would only be the case if we only played on SV/BF/FD and even then it is a stretch. Diddy benefits because he has a good (relative to the rest of the cast) MU vs MK and MKs filter out most of Diddy's bad MUs.

Diddy is at a disadvantage vs Snake, MK, Luigi, Peach, Wario, some argue Marth (I disagree), Falco (though I believe Dekar now believes this is 50-50) and Toon Link. Throw in randomly difficult MUs vs low-mid tiers like Ike, Pit, and Mario and you don't really have as great a "3rd best in the game" as people try to make you believe (usually MKs cause they aren't use to having to struggle vs characters, so anyone they struggle against must have an easy time with the rest of the cast just like themselves!).
 

The Real Inferno

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Diddy has two glaring weaknesses Inferno.
The second being that he isnt a flexible character, so if he is CP'ed, he has a really difficult time.
it's undeniable that Diddy is a great character, but I sincerely doubt he is as good as Snake.
I can see him as the 4th best character in the game, simply because of the fact that proper CP's against Diddy can really mess up his game.
His CP problem is bad, but the concept of Starter stages allows him to have a bit of an advantage as he is more likely to get a stage he does very well on, since his CPs are all starters. Any set against Diddy Kong, the most important game is the first one, as the opponent's counterpick should be assumed to be a win for them in optimal conditions. Diddy is a character who heavily benefits from smaller starter lists and generally TOs outside of certain regions tend toward smaller lists. I just find because of the way the CP system work, Diddy doesn't get hurt by his weakness to counterpicks.
 

DEHF

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I see Diddy being 5 or 6 on the tier list in the future. A lot of characters can use bananas just as well as Diddy can. The only thing that gives him an edge on bananas is that he can control where and when they come out.
 

Count

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Mkay. Big post incoming.

Diddy is not a "gimmick" character. While this may have been the case in the past, none of my 'gimmicks' work any longer. Canceling a peanut gun to a banana is no longer an auto combo, people don't crumble at the sight of bananas, (except m2k), side bing onto an opponents shield anytime I am holding a banana no longer garners an automatic 15%, and ADHD's famous "camp trap" isn't really a valid base strategy any longer.

The notion that people will all of a sudden get better with bananas at this point in the meta game is an absurd one. The game is about two and a half years old, and about a year or so ago, Diddy was listed as a meta knight 'counter.' Wouldn't any sudden breakthroughs regarding banana control have come in by now? If players are not good with bananas at this point, it is simply his or her fault, and frankly this isn't the case at top level play.

Banana control is the least of my concerns at high level play. I played against Ally, Judge, and Krystedez this past weekend and banana control was never really an issue. Diddy Kong's item micromanagement capabilities are hands down better than everybody elses. Some characters, like ROB and Meta Knight come close, but frankly diddy's dash attack, air dodge, and aerials are superior regarding handling items. Some characters, like game and watch and King Dedede have an extremely difficult time picking up a banana, particularly a grounded one.


There was a jump when people began to learn the matchup-but that time seems to have passed. And the only matchup that seems to have gotten significantly worse is Meta Knight, and that's partly because MK isn't used to having to study matchups that hard ^_^. At one time I believed that Diddy's matchups would significantly worsen--but I think the time came and went and that his matchups did not get much worse. Although many low level players may not properly be able to fight Diddy and may feel overwhelmed, at top levels of play most seem to have the Diddy Kong matchup fairly well locked down.



All this being said I do agree that Diddy probably will drop a few spots on the next tier list, but I do feel this is partly due to the lack of Diddy players despite Diddy Kong's solidarity as a character. He is difficult to pick up simply because playing him is almost completely different than playing any other character in the game.

I talk about Diddy's matchups and shiz related to this discussion in this interview that clowsui and his new smash content website gave me last weekend. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Asti1zgEPE

Plz ignore how awkward I am :)


Although some players know the Diddy matchup than others, it is extremely rare to run into a high level player that still falls for Diddy Kong "gimmicks."


Edit: Diddy does indeed have a CP problem, but is mainly an issue against Meta Knight and possibly Wario. I think those are the only two characters where I feel helpless on their CP. (AKA brinstar, RC, and norfair if legal)

Banning of MK might make Diddy worse due to him seeing a lot more of our more difficult matchups, but by the same token many of Diddy Kong's matchups I consider to be around even anyway.
 

TheMike

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I also don't think his recovery is that bad-- you can do a lot to mix it up with his side-B.
I did not say it is bad. As a ROB main, I find it predictable because I have a pretty good off stage game and decent responses to avoid Diddy Kong recoveries attempts.
 

omegawhitemage

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wait wait

just to make this clear

marth is GARBAGE compared to diddy

i hope u all realize this

Gnes "admitting that" doesn't mean anything. He wants people to think his character isn't as good as it really is
That sounds eerily familiar.
 

Mew2King

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i never find other MKs hard, EVER. I think he is overrated in the same way that I think Marth is overrated in Melee. I've never found a marth hard in melee, and the more I learn what to do, it becomes ridiculously easier.

i think tier list is

Diddy (with pound4 rules)
MK
Snake/Falco any order
ICs
Wario
Olimar

something like that, then idk who after. Maybe like Pikachu or ... man I don't know after that
 

Omni

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jason, you don't find MK's hard because you use MK

if you used other characters then maybe you'd understand a little better, but you don't
 

swordgard

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Pretty much.


5-5 matchups aren't "hard". When you got at top level and more than half the people your playing against have MK and its 6-4 or worst, then yes, it becomes hard.
 

AllyKnight

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jason, you don't find MK's hard because you use MK

if you used other characters then maybe you'd understand a little better, but you don't
omni gets a hug from me.

I'll try to not say too much bcause I dont main the characters thus I dont want to be biased.

Diddy Kong is indeed NOT 3rd best or 2nd nor best (LOL)

Counterpicked: Yes diddy has issues when he is cp'ed on stages like RC, Frigate (imo). (Prob more but I dont main diddy). Diddy has a LIL bit of trouble recovering on Frigate because of the lack of edges sometimes which is a free hit from anybody. I believe RC is bad mostly because of MK being able to gimp him EASILY and can have early kills from the sides.

(Snake sucks)

I believe that Diddy will indeed drop by time. Diddy vs MK being in MK Favor and getting harder and harder for Diddy as players are learning to use the Bananas against him effectively, making it harder for him.

not many diddys place top 3, i only see gnes and adhd doing this, an overrated characters. Count is good though he is getting there.

sad that diddy's weakness is his own bananas imo LOL
 

Mew2King

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Ally you used to say Diddy was the best and better than MK when ADHD was on a rampage around SNES to Pound4 time and was beating you a lot. Since he's gotten rusty you have changed your mind from 1st best to 3rd/4th

I said that Diddy is better with bananas than MK is, and stats back that up. He has stronger follow ups, faster throw, can do it across the stage, and when he throws them away he always gets the banana in his hand first. He has the advantage from just throwing you away once at a low % because he then gets 1 or 2 (at least 1) banana which he can use better than MK even if MK fully masters them.

I still think that with the old rules before MLG that Diddy def has the advantage in the MU against MK

What characters do you believe are better than Diddy? I do not think Snake, Falco, or ICs are better than Diddy Kong
 

AllyKnight

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Ally you used to say Diddy was the best and better than MK when ADHD was on a rampage around SNES to Pound4 time and was beating you a lot. Since he's gotten rusty you have changed your mind from 1st best to 3rd/4th
Not really, we are not just talking about ADHD, but Diddy Kong overall. No one used Bananas as good as today, the metagame changes Jason, VERY FAST.

I said that Diddy is better with bananas than MK is, and stats back that up. He has stronger follow ups, faster throw, can do it across the stage, and when he throws them away he always gets the banana in his hand first. He has the advantage from just throwing you away once at a low % because he then gets 1 or 2 (at least 1) banana which he can use better than MK even if MK fully masters them.
who said MK had a better banana game than Diddy o.O? we're just saying that ANY CHARS are getting better at using bananas, making diddy struggle more.

I still think that with the old rules before MLG that Diddy def has the advantage in the MU against MK
No way. like I said before, you bad at Diddy MU and people are getting better at the MU and with using the bananas (like you)
 

Omni

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i still think Diddy is 3rd best

who's better than Diddy besides Snake? character wise and performance wise

- IC's? no
- Falco? no
- Olimar or DDD? no and no
- Wario? MAYBE, but he hasnt been performing too well based on tournament performance

adhd is having a slump AND people are learning how to use the nanerz better. and i use slump loosely because he still dominates his region (anti is a strong force there as well). still, i dont see him being anywhere below top 3.

MK, Snake, Diddy for top 3. what other characters can possibly be in the top 3 zone?
 

T-block

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How many of you actually played diddy for at least 6 months as secondary to get used to the bananas? I would say very few people did.
I did (Squirtle is **** with bananas) but he ended up as a co-main. I agree that some characters can use bananas against Diddy and make it hard for him - Sheik, Squirtle, Lucas, Fox, Ice Climbers, to name a few. People definitely have a long way to go with using bananas - it'll get harder for Diddy if he ever becomes a big enough threat to scare people into learning how to use them.
 

AllyKnight

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diddy is def 3rd but it doesnt work in my mind because in my mind snake isnt 2nd, so then id have to put diddy 2nd. ugh lol so biased, but if time goes on and people learn to use bananas even better then Diddy will def drop. I believe ICS can **** Diddy, Lain is terrible at it, Meep unno he hasnt played ADHD in a long time.

Actually ICS could be 3rd tbh, the Snake ICS MU isnt that bad, the U.S ICS just sucks vs HIM or something.
 

Count

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You guys say only Gnes and ADHD do well, but what non mk character has many top placers? Diddy's performance and potential keep him near the top.
 

AlphaZealot

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I do agree with T-block. Squirtle can be tough to fight as Diddy. It really comes down to how good the Ivysuar is.
 

Omni

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You guys say only Gnes and ADHD do well, but what non mk character has many top placers? Diddy's performance and potential keep him near the top.
Yerp.

Metaknight - M2K, Havok, Tyrant, Tearbear, Dojo, Judge, Anti, Shadow, Seibrik, Ally (lol)
Snake - Ally, Razer (no one else comes close to these two imo)
Diddy - ADHD, Gnes, uhm... Felix/Ninjalink? Nah, those two aren't on ADHD/Gnes level.
Falco - DEHF (SK92 isn't up there anymore, Keitaro is up there)
IC's - Meh. Lain's been slacking. Meep uses Fox. Atomsk? Swordgad? =/ No one plays IC's.

Like AZ said, Diddy's ability to do well compared to the rest of the cast against MK with a combination of MK filtering most of Diddy's bad match-ups out is what puts him at Top 3. I believe ADHD and Gnes have the best performance behind Ally and Razer. And just as a character Diddy doesn't have any specific match-ups where it's HEAVILY not in his favor. Falco has Pikachu and IC's to deal with. IC's, themselves, have more tough match-ups than Diddy IMO.

I really think Diddy is a solid 3rd best in the cast.
 

ShadowLink84

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I actually would think that in terms of top 3, it would be
MK,Wario and Diddy.

Diddy has potential, but with MLG's stagelist he becomes weaker because he no longer has the capability of starting out on stages he does very well on. He simply is forced to a stage in which he is decent which hampers his banana game.

There isn't anything to add without repeating what other's have said.
 
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