The Meta Knight Stage Discussion Thread: Battlefield Discussion

Stage discussion: Battlefield!


So here we discuss Battlefield. Just post comments on the stage, maybe give it a 1 out of 10 rating of how good MK is here, if you’d like (it’s pretty subjective, though, and not required), 1 being miserably bad (definitely doesn’t apply to MK on BF lol), 10 being amazing.

I’ll post my personal opinions on it later.

the problem w/ rating this 1-10 is that

are we rating it in comparison to other stages
to our overall matchups on this stage
in this case our desired nuetral perhaps?

there are so many factors that go into that.

id give it a 5 overall though, i may do a writeup later kinda tired/lazy/writing other stuff for this board

Basics:

Platforms help MK juggle
Super easy to recover
Can cancel stuff with Drill Rush (Not that useful but just saying)
Platforms can help MK air camp forever? idk

w.e 7/10

In comparison to other stages, I guess. RC/Brinstar would be 10s since they’re his best stages. So in comparison to RC/Brinstar. A numbered ratio isn’t necessary, really. You could just say “it’s your best starter in these matchups, strike it in these matchups, BF is better than –insert stage here- so don’t strike it” and stuff like that. A numbered ratio isn’t really necessary, but if there’s ever a time when there is a generally accepted number ratio, it makes it simpler to put in the summary.

So the number really isn’t that necessary, it’s just a nice simple thing to add to the summary. What’s most important is discussion of tactics for the stage, why MK is good/bad on the stage, what matchups specifically is MK really good at, or worse at than usual, on the stage.

Those kind of things are far more important than the number, so focus on that before giving a number

heres my revised ratio

learn it because you will probably end up playing here 50% of them if you stage strike properly game 1 in a tournament setting.

no point in really worrying about something you like be forced to play on. i think platforms helping mk is overrated though many times.

Brinstar is much worse against characters like Tink or Link than other stages.

The platforms can be used with tornado to immensely pressure horizontally large characters (e.g. Dedede), but in match-ups with characters who fall quickly and have quick options that can beat Meta Knight's options when poorly spaced (e.g. a lot of Utilts). For example in the Snake match-up, it helps Snake stop juggles sooner where he can shield/pull out a grenade and then react.

The only point of a stage-specific thread should be stage-related options; leave the comprehensive match-up discussion to the match-up thread(s).

Staco said:

Brinstar is much worse against characters like Tink or Link than other stages.

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No it isn't.

Okay I figure I might as well post some stuff on this stage.

There are a few up-B canceling tricks on this stage due to the top platform. For instance, if you’re below the top platform, if you grounded up-B and immediately glide up after the grounded up-B you’ll land on the top platform with no lag. It’s a good mixup to make it harder for your opponent to punish you. And there’s another spot below the top platform where if you grounded up-B below it, you’ll end up gliding into the edge of the top platform causing you to have the getup lag, but the forward momentum will slide you off the platform. It can be a really good bait.

There are the drill rush cancels, but I can’t think of a single time I’ve used those in tournament to my advantage. They’re incredibly situational, but w/e, an option is an option, I guess.

You can pressure people on the platforms really hard when they’re shielding with uairs and nairs. A good option that screws some people up is hitting someone’s shield (probably with an SHFF nair or something like that) when they’re close to the edge of a platform so that they fall off; often people won’t tech it or do anything, which sets you up for a Dtilt lock.

But be careful of the same thing happening to you. Other characters can do it, as well; I’ve seen Larry get the laser lock from doing this a LOT (even against really good players like M2K).

Watch your spacing when you try and reverse shuttle loop onto the stage from below it, the lower platform likes to catch you and cause you to go higher than expected, and you’re still in a glide. I’ve SD’d a few times due to this… just learn the spacing of the reverse SL without hitting the lower platform.

This is mostly useless, but it could be a good bait, I guess. From the lower platform, if you DC and go immediately to the area in the middle with no platforms (no up or down, just straight horizontal) it’ll auto-cancel on the main ground. Every once in a while you can get a punish from doing that, making them want to punish what looks like a really stupid laggy DC and then, BAM, no lag.

And the platforms stopping you from getting grab release combo’d is nice, but that’s not at all exclusive to this stage.

There’s not much more I can think of right now, MK is just all around good here. This is a really good stage in some matchups, and depending on how many starters you have, you might end up here a lot due to stage striking. Practice here and get comfortable, you’ll probably play here a LOT.

Xdeath said:

The only point of a stage-specific thread should be stage-related options; leave the comprehensive match-up discussion to the match-up thread(s).

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It's good to know what you can do against characters and what characters can do to you, in stage discussions. That's really a main point in them, otherwise, how would we know which stage to go to against which character? This thread should not just be stage related options only, it should also include character specifics, otherwise how would we know not to go to FD against ICs or Diddy?

No it isn't.

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Actually, it is. Maybe not as much for Link, but Tink can run like hell on this stage.

Some matchup information being mentioned in the stage thread is not a bad thing. If you have something that’s matchup and stage dependant at the same time, you might as well post it.

Same thing in the matchup thread, if you have something that’s stage dependant, might as well mention it.

Yeah maybe Tink can run away a little bit, but then I press the B button and he loses lol.

the unable tea table said:

Yeah maybe Tink can run away a little bit, but then I press the B button and he loses lol.

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ahahahahahaha

Player-4 said:

It's good to know what you can do against characters and what characters can do to you, in stage discussions. That's really a main point in them, otherwise, how would we know which stage to go to against which character? This thread should not just be stage related options only, it should also include character specifics, otherwise how would we know not to go to FD against ICs or Diddy?



Actually, it is. Maybe not as much for Link, but Tink can run like hell on this stage.

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There isn't some magical formula for knowing where to take a character.

A counter-example to your Diddy on FD example is a tournament set between Mero -- one of FL's best MK players -- against GDX -- FL's best Diddy player. Mero lost game one to GDX on Smashville (IIRC), counter-picked GDX to FD (GDX laughed at him) and then two-stocked him twice (GDX took him back to FD).

Pierce made an excellent post about Diddy and his level of stage control:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10524735&postcount=304

Pierce7d said:

Diddy's bubble of control is about this big:

____________

Picto is about this big

________________________

FD is about this big

__________________

Smashville is about this big

_______________

I greatly feel that Smashville is Diddy's best stage. ADHD has the highest win ratio against me here. FD is pretty good, but I prefer to go there over Smashville. I think that FD is better for Diddy than MK, and Smashville buffs MK as it does Diddy. Hence, FD is better in that particular MU. Overall, I think Smashville might be better for Diddy though, when you compare to the rest of the cast. His ability to control so much area is silly, but it's mitigated when there is a lot of area to escape to. Since his bubble eventually disappears and leaves a slight opening, or he creates an opening when moving it, I prefer to have more space. It's not that hard to NOT get banana locked, and if you watch matches at higher level play, it doesn't happen often (and isn't THAT much damage anyway). D3's chaingrab results in MUCH more profitable damage. Diddy prefers to just keep you under constant pressure by controlling the space around.

tl;dr

If the size of the stage extends past the amount of space Diddy can control, you can deal with Diddy easier simply by playing patiently.

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Something that should always be taken into consideration that one should take is how a losing player analyzed their opponent. Think after the match, "What did my opponent do that is bad for me? What did my opponent do that is good for me?" An example of this would be in the Snake-MK match-up. Let's say that I won game one on Battlefield. My opponent beat me on the ground terribly; every time that I was on the ground, he out-played me (which was doubly rewarded because he's Snake and I'm MK). How did I win? His platform game is abysmal; once I got him on a platform, I used landing traps with Uair and juggled him with tornado so that he was never on the stage for long. He never countered this properly with platform canceling, dropping a grenade, etc. In addition to this, he wasn't tech chasing properly (Snake grabbing on a platform should lead to death, or at the very least give most of a stock's damage).

What should I do in this situation about my stage ban? The match-up discussion would probably say that I should ban Halberd. It is Snake's best stage after all, isn't it? Not in this case. FD would be his best stage in this case; it eliminates his platform problem, increases the survival ratio in Snake's favor, and it increases the amount of time spent on the ground.

On the other hand, Halberd begins on a large platform with a relatively smaller platform above it. My options are greatly rewarded, because very little ground fighting will take place. Because he isn't countering my sharking properly, there shouldn't be any ground fighting to begin with. When the "low-ceiling-FD+platform" transformation comes, I can simply plank until it ends. It doesn't matter if I die sooner when my opponent is hardly on the ground to damage me or to land a kill move.

Staco said:

Brinstar is much worse against characters like Tink or Link than other stages.

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falco

Player-4 said:

Actually, it is. Maybe not as much for Link, but Tink can run like hell on this stage.

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also false

xdeath at least in the posts hes made in this thread is telling me that hes really smart i like this guy lol

Lol you haven't played Jerm on Brinstar. I'll say that Brinstar isn't that great for Tink, but I'll never take Jerm there.

Also, my reasoning behind what I said about this thread still stands. I want it to take an approach at also knowing who can do good on these stage and who gets *****. One thing you guys seem to be missing is, not everyone is a pro or knows what they're doing when they come in here. I know when I first started out, the GW boards helped me a lot just because they covered characters along with their stage discussion. Now I don't want this turning into a matchup thread, but I'd like a balance between the two.

Orion* said:

xdeath at least in the posts hes made in this thread is telling me that hes really smart i like this guy lol

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I like you too haha.

Player-4 said:

Also, my reasoning behind what I said about this thread still stands. I want it to take an approach at also knowing who can do good on these stage and who gets *****. One thing you guys seem to be missing is, not everyone is a pro or knows what they're doing when they come in here. I know when I first started out, the GW boards helped me a lot just because they covered characters along with their stage discussion. Now I don't want this turning into a matchup thread, but I'd like a balance between the two.

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There is no all-encompassing stage that someone should always take X character to. As I said in my previous post, posting "Ban Halberd against Snake and take him to Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise." doesn't work. This is because that statement is false by omission when presented to a new player. Is that how it typically functions in high-level play? Yes. However posting it in such a manner implies an absolute scenario of "always do this" when such an "always" doesn't exist. It denies new players the critical-thinking skills that are necessary to learn and comprehend the higher levels of the game. Coincidentally, this lack of critical-thinking would prevent any new player from understanding the implications that you are aiming for in the first place.

That is why it should explain to them is when they should be doing something. The character guide should teach people how to do things, the match-up thread should teach people what counters what, how to get kills, etc., and the stage thread should teach people how things work differently on different stages. Unless there is something comprehensive, anything less that is attempting to compromise or "balance" it will be half-hearted and will hurt in the long-run.

Also, if you're properly spacing against Toon Link on Brinstar, he shouldn't have any way to hit you below the stage. It doesn't matter if he can run away from you the entire game (which he can't do, by the way; he has several fewer jumps than you do and it's a small stage) because he'd have to have the lead for it to matter. If you're losing to Jerm on Brinstar, it's because he knows the stage better, utilizes his character better, understands the match-up better, is a generally better player, or any combination of the above.

What you're saying is right, but still, there is a reason to know why X character(s) is good on Y stage. It's not always the best option to ban Y stage against X character, but players do need to know which stages are better for and against X character.

I never said we should state "always ban this against X and always take X to Y stage", but we need to give a rough idea of what's good and bad and give a simple 1-2 lines for why.

Is that really such a big deal?

Player-4 said:

What you're saying is right, but still, there is a reason to know why X character(s) is good on Y stage. It's not always the best option to ban Y stage against X character, but players do need to know which stages are better for and against X character.

I never said we should state "always ban this against X and always take X to Y stage", but we need to give a rough idea of what's good and bad and give a simple 1-2 lines for why.

Is that really such a big deal?

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I believe that it should be done right or not at all, but if you believe otherwise, then you're the moderator and I'm not.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201905

This is what I basically mean with the character summary (just take a quick glance). All I really want is a noted opinion, not a solid "this is what you should do". Think of it more as guidance rather than telling someone what they should be doing.

Btw, this is my fault, but this conversation should really be taking place in the Stage Hub thread. Any following replies about this current conversation/topic we're having should be done there. The following, from this post, needs to be about the current stage discussion.

I usually start my match with a drill rush on this stage since it's most likely going to cancel. However, this can probably become really predictable.

Shuttle loop auto cancel mindgames are good here with the highest platform.

You can pressure opponents on the 2 lower platforms with U-airs if you are obviously below them.

Making great use of the platforms will be a huge advantage.

I believe this stage is very good against Snake thanks to juggling with platforms, but Snake can always take advantage of them too. Also, I would never take an ICs main here.

Player-4 said:

Actually, it is. Maybe not as much for Link, but Tink can run like hell on this stage.

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No, it really isn't. Trust me. The MU is impossible there while on BF it's about 65-35.

PwnerBren7 said:

I usually start my match with a drill rush on this stage since it's most likely going to cancel. However, this can probably become really predictable.

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Why would you start a drill rush if you know it's predictable?
ROB will just drop and Usmash you, Snake will drop and Utilt you or set up an explosion, Falco will drop and Nair/Bair you, GW will drop and Nair you. Basically it's just too easy to shut that approach down at the beginning of the game.

Shuttle loop auto cancel mindgames are good here with the highest platform.

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Don't leave yourself too open up here at the top. If you miss, you're in trouble.
Don't Shuttle Loop too high if someone is simply standing on the top platform.

You can pressure opponents on the 2 lower platforms with U-airs if you are obviously below them.

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Yes. SHDoubleUairs make pressure very easy on these platforms. If your opponent is standing on the edge of it and shielding, you can Uair them from behind, pushing them off the platform and into a falling animation, and follow up with an Nair (no need for a jump).

I believe this stage is very good against Snake thanks to juggling with platforms, but Snake can always take advantage of them too. Also, I would never take an ICs main here.

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Agreed @ ICs. They can camp under the platforms and wait for you to approach.

Smash G 0 D said:

Agreed @ ICs. They can camp under the platforms and wait for you to approach.

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Lol then where would you take ICs? This stage is actually one of the BEST stages to take ICs, it's where I go and it's where M2K, Shadow, and other top MKs go. Trust me on this, you do want platforms. Your Dair and Nado are going to beat their approach from underneath and will make it impossible for them to grab you.

Really the best place to take ICs is somewhere with platforms, because the whole match should consist of you Dair camping the **** outta them, so you really need a place to rest your wings then to get back to work. FD is their best stage by far, and bad for you. I honestly think it's in ICs favor on FD.

Battlefield is a good stage to camp Falco on.

Xdeath said:

Battlefield is a good stage to camp Falco on.

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This 999999999999999x

Lol then where would you take ICs? This stage is actually one of the BEST stages to take ICs, it's where I go and it's where M2K, Shadow, and other top MKs go. Trust me on this, you do want platforms. Your Dair and Nado are going to beat their approach from underneath and will make it impossible for them to grab you.

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I would take them somewhere gay, like Brinstar/RC (whichever one they don’t ban); because those are their worst stages by faaaaaar.

Coming from a former IC main, I wouldn’t take ICs to BF if I had the power to take them to SV. We can still camp them with the platforms, plus scrooging.

ICs are reaaaaaaaaaally good on BF. Yeah, you can dair camp them. But then they can UAir you for 15% >_>

If it were a choice between SV and BF, I’d pick SV. I’d rather have the option to scrooge them when I get the lead than have the option to have more platforms (which really doesn’t help you much, since the SV platform is usually in such a bad spot for them to uair you, you can camp it harder. Whereas on BF, they can chase you more and have a better shot at landing the uair).

I’m not denying that you need to be somewhere with platforms, this matchup is hella gay on FD. Ban that ****. But I’d still say that SV is better than BF, and with 5 starters, you can pretty much guarantee getting SV by striking BF and FD (3 starters is dumb and shouldn’t be used anywhere).

@Falco stuff: Again, I’d still rather camp him on SV. He’s better on BF against you than on SV, anyways. Atleast Larry is…

Falco is really good on BF, and you can still camp him just as hard, if not harder, on SV.

In a striking situation with 5 starters, I'd still probably take Falco to SV instead of BF. And with 7 neutrals or more I could just strike all 3 and go to a stage that's not a counterpick stage for him lol

the unable tea table said:

In a striking situation with 5 starters, I'd still probably take Falco to SV instead of BF. And with 7 neutrals or more I could just strike all 3 and go to a stage that's not a counterpick stage for him lol

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Battlefield is better for camping with a percent lead and Smashville is better for camping with a stock lead (I love scrooging so much).

the unable tea table said:

*text*

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Here's the thing about Battlefield against ICs. Once you get that stock or percent you lead you can to the top platform and ICs cannot touch you. Another thing is, you have 3 platforms to work with on Battlefield, while SV's might move, you're still confined to just one platform.

You can also scrooge on BF, it's just not as easy as SV. One last thing about ICs, if you get the percent or stock lead against SoPo, there is no way he can catch you on BF, but on SV it would be easier.

I play against a good ICs all the time, so BF and Brinstar are my favorite stages against him. I actually don't like Rainbow, because if SoPo or even regular ICs grab you on the boat, they can CG up against the wall for I think 80%, and that's free damage unlike the infinite that's easier to mess up. Now, this doesn't ruin the stage against them, but I think Brinstar is much better then RC just from personal experience.

I also agree that BF is a great stage to camp Falco on, and again I think it's better than SV because of the top platform and how you can really use it to run.

^Yeah Brinstar is better than RC, imo. I'd rather go Brinstar, but most ICs ban it, so I usually go RC

Brinstar is such a beautiful stage for MK. omfg.