The Slaughterhouse - Ganondorf's 2010 MU Discussion Thread

The Slaughterhouse
Ganondorf's 2010 Match Up Discussion summaries




"There are those in this realm who would snivel and flee in the face of adversity. As well, many whom exist would derive arrogance from my weakened state. No matter their differences of similarities, I see naught but false kings who rests their perishable bodies upon thrones of delusion. For their delusion lies in dreams of infinity. But they are finite. They will expire and rot to feed the soil that grovels 'neath my thunderous gait. For darkness is infinite, and I, the King of Evil, am eternal. I shall free these pretenders from their misguided illusions. I shall wrest the crowns from usurper's heads and seize my throne as king of this world once again. I will seek out they who so eagerly beckon for death as to stand before me as my equal.

Charlatan kings, false gods and eidolons; make ready your last breaths, as your time draws nigh. I shall draw your last breath as tribute to my reign. I will cease this pervasive illusion. I will...

PURGE THIS WORLD OF DELUSION"
~by Vermanubis, manliest Ganondorf mainer in all the world.

The time has come! We're starting from scratch and updating the match up discussion, since ours is currently very outdated to the current gameplay of SSBB.
Let's focus our discussion on three main argument starters: what can Ganon do against X, what can't Ganon do against X and what X can and WILL do against Ganon. These three topics can (and should) be opened up to the point we cover up pretty much everything we can: Gerudo efficiency, Thunderstorming viability, edge guarding risks, avoid gimping and edge hogging, clashing with X attacks and if it's effective or not, secure options, best OoS... and so goes on. This way we can have an unimaginable quality theoric base on MU and this can (and, hopefully, will) help us out when we play. Videos of the MU are pretty much welcome too.
Discussions will be held in bi-weekly individual threads and will only be closed when we agree in a ratio to the MU. After that, a summary will be updated here and a link to the thread will be posted too in the first post. However, even if the discussion is "closed", the topic remains open for those who still want to argument over.
We'll follow SBR Tier List v4 as a discussion order.
Please, use the following chart to give your ratios.

Vermanubis][color=skyblue]50:50 - Even[/color] [color=yellow]55:45 - 60:40 - Slight to Moderate disadvantage[/color] [color=orange]65:35 - 70:30 - Noticable disadvantage[/color] [color=darkorange]75:25 - 80:20 - Severe disadvantage[/color] [color=red]85:15 - 90:10 - Nearly unwinnable[/color] [color=crimson]95:5 - 100:0 - Realistically unwinnable[/color][/quote][/center] [b]||| META KNIGHT |||[/b] :metaknight: [b][color=darkorange]80:20[/color][/b] [url=http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=279620]Discussion thread[/url]. [i][size=1]Finished on 07/12. Open for new discussion.[/size][/i] [B][U]OVERALL:[/U][/B] MK dismisses any kind of presentation or summary about his gameplay: he's da bess. Priority said:

Bait. Hard. Throw out random Usmashes, sh Uairs and shff bair's, learn how to isjr consistently, stutterstep, etc. When I'm playing this MU I just try as hard as I can to bait the MK into a dashgrab, then go for my favorite string.

Stomp -> read the airdodge/nair/dair and get a gerudo -> Dtilt -> read the fair/dair/airdodge and get that second gerudo -> Dtilt -> follow into the air, bait the rising dair, and punish with an Uair -> and try to land the fsmash when it recovers with a stupid option since he just took ~75% and murder the *****.

I'm dead serious about this, so many MKs do this it's ridiculous. However afterwords, this string is obviously not going to work again, unless the MK is a complete moron.

From here on out, just camp as hard as you can. MKs main approach is running up, throwing their shield up, and waiting for a spotdoge or a roll to punish. Spam pivotgrabbing as soon as you see the MK make that first dash towards you. Do NOT try to approach, as a Ftilt or sh Fair will **** anything you try to approach with. If you get an MK offstage, do NOT go out after it. You will lose, wait for it to come back to you and try to punish it's recovery.

Tornado will be beaten out by a nicely timed Ftilt or Fsmash. I prefer going for the up angled Fsmash. If they're on the edge while you're closeish to it, they'll try either a ledge drop into a dj fair or airdodge into a buffered Ftilt. Hold up your shield, and if you see them airdodgeing, go for the punish with a jab or the ftilt if you think you have enough time. If they attack your shield with the fair, wait for it to finish and grab if they're close enough, or just roll away if they aren't.

Do your best to avoid the grab at all costs. If the MK plays smart, a grab is pretty much a stock. If you're above the MK, be extremely careful about when you airdoge, or you'll eat a nice shuttle loop. There really isn't a safe way to recover against a MK. I try to recover low and hope that they just go for an edgehog and mistime it.

If you're above a mk, get back to the ground as soon as possible. Don't try to **** around and be fancy trying to stomp him midair, because, again, a smart MK will just throw a tornado underneath you and send you right back up into the air.

That's all I got for now. I'll try and get some vids from the tourney I'm going to this weekend. Also, this is all just stuff that I've observed recently. If you have anything you disagree with or want to add, go right ahead. That IS what this thread is for after all.

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seaDORF said:

I'm fortunate enough to live within an hours drive of the best mk player in my country. He's nowhere near the skill level of some of the mk's in america like m2k, tyrant and dojo but he's still a very good player nonetheless. I will consult with him and get his advice on the matchup soon but for now, i will put in my 2 cents. My paragraphs won't be cohesive cos i'm just jotting down random things i know about the match-up for now but i'll edit it later and fix it up.

I mostly concur with breezy's post and stress to you all not to fwuck around in the air. MK's too good and outprioritizes all of our aerials. Stay grounded and avoid staying motionless for too long. In this match-up, i tend to concentrate on spacing and mindgames moreso than approaching or retaliating out of shield. I thunderstorm mindgame when the mk is spacing/f-air or d-air camping. MK's slow speed in the air helps make it easier to shield grab their F-air/D-airs.

All of our tilts aren't really frame-safe and an approaching mk will eat us for breakfast. You want to be constantly moving around the stage to keep the mk guessing. Occassional aerials are fine if you see that the mk is playing really aggressively (which most do in this match-up). But yeh, watch out particularly for the buffered U-airs at lower percents as you'll just get *****. Only solution there is to stay grounded and if they manage to get a F-throw/U-throw on you or they somehow juggle you in the air, do your best to DI and airdodge asap back to the ground. As breezy also mentioned, F-smash and F-tilt can beat nado if timed right. Responding with a F-smash to a MK's glide attack is also a decent option because even if they clash, you'll win through the damage percent trade.

Ganondorf's advantages against Meta-Knight
- Heavier and can live longer
- Can KO mk at relatively early %'s due to our attacking strength.
- Mk's slow air speed makes it easier to anticipate his aerials and makes it easier to shieldgrab.

Ganondorf's disadvantages against Meta-Knight
- Easily gimped
- Very easy to combo ganondorf
- Attack priority
- Recovery
- Gets completely outplayed in the air
- List could go on forever...

A few important pointers.

1. You can't afford to let him grab you. A good mk will tear you to pieces.
2. Don't chase mk off-stage.
3. Try to stay centre stage. Fighting near the ledge will most likely end in a gimp.
4. Flame choke is arguably your best attacking option. You need to capitalize on every successful flame choke and accumulate damage. You can only really destroy mk while he's trying to recover off the ground. Make sure to take every opportunity and punish anything stupid that he does.
5. DI away if he d-throws you. You don't want to DI towards him as that will lead to him F-airing you or chaining you.

Ban Level: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: A neutral like smashville or FD. I personally go with Pirate Ship because less chance of getting gimped and stage bull$hit may play in your favour. Worth the risk.

Summary - 05:95 in mk's favour.

Reasoning - I don't think mk is unbeatable. The fact that he is a lightweight and that 1 of our attacks is equivalent to 2-3 of his attacks percentage wise gives us a very small chance. The ratio shouldn't be anything better than that either because unless i'm misinformed, i haven't heard of a ganondorf player beating a high-level mk player, both at the top of their metagames which is how the ratios are based.

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Bahamut777 said:

I'll add my opinion here as well...

Can't stress this enough... DON'T FRICKIN' JUMP AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT!!!
You'll be juggled, gimped and die. If you die first, you lose, 'coz MK is gonna plank your azz 'till the last minute without exceding edgegrabs. No doubt against it.

DON'T GET GRABBED! If you get grabbed, you get juggled, gimped and you know what happens.

DON'T TRY TO PUNISH LAG! MK doesn't has any. You'll be punished twice as hard as you could punish. Also, don't mess with MK's shield. You'll be Shuttle Looped to your death.

DON'T GO OFFSTAGE! No matter what! We all know what happens if you do so.

DON'T MESS ON THE EDGE! Get back on stage as soon as you can! If you try to mess around there, you'll take a slight hit, followed by gimp and edgehog.

DON'T CLASH! MK has that ****ed transcendent priority. There is not a thing you can do about it. It's better holding up your shield/dodge/roll than trying to clash with something you know that will hit, no matter what you do to prevent it.

DON'T APPROACH! You'll get shield grabbed, gimped and blah blah blah.
----------
Ok... now that we got our limits, let's work on.

Most MKs are aggressive players that trust, almost blindly, their character and play in a pattern easily readable and hard to punish. Whatever that pattern is, Ganon don't have much options to deal with it. He can either try to Jab/FTilt space himself and still crap in his pants if he gets shielded or he can trust his shield and try to shield grab or pivot grab while moving. Getting a grab in this MU is good, because you can rank up damage and, at the same time, get the reaction off your opponent. I.E. after a DThrow most MKs tend to FAir you. Hold your shield and then you can almost always get another grab out of it.

MKs like to approach in three ways: FAir, Dash Attack or running grab. Against the first one, shield grab is safe but, if delayed too much, you get DTilted/DSmashed/Shuttle Looped... and lose a big chance. Against Dash Attack, you can Gerudo and outtake it, but it requires good foreseeing skills. Running grab can be dealt with by dodging and Jabing/FTilting, but the last one is almost a gamble and should be used only in last case.

Once you gave MK some %, keep yourself safe untill MK do something stupid (not like he's going to, tho'). You HAVE to get the first kill and avoid being KOed by 8 minutes. For this, don't be offensive. NEVER. Not for a single instant. Don't try to combo, don't try to tech chase, don't try to edge guard... the most you can do is a Gerudo -> FTilt/Jab/DTilt. And you should be happy for landing those. Try to stay in the lead. Ganon's heavyweight can help you survive against DSmash and Shuttle Loop, but can't help much against gimp.

If MK is trying to camp you with DAir/FAir, you have the single option of outraging him by a very small margin and hit him with either FAir or reversed UAir, both timed strictly right. I prefer not to take the risk. You can also outrage him with FTilt and, vertically, USmash. I recommend trying this ONLY at KO %s, like 130% or more.

That's pretty much everything you can resume of the match:
-Don't rush to your death.
-Take the lead and keep it.
-DON'T DO THE THINGS ON THE START OF THIS POST!!!
If you can keep your cool and don't make any mistakes, you can win this match by playing safely and mindgaming yourself to victory.

About c.picking... well... it's MK. He does grat in any stage he wants... =\
Just ban R.Cruise. We don't want a less than 2 minutes match.

My current rating: 85:15 MK

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ItemfinderDeluxe said:

Just a few things.

1. If a MK gets in his poke range, he'll usually do one of 3 things:

A) Dash Grab - if so, then follow the above statements and hope they work.
B) D-Tilt your shield until it has a hole and then D-Smash under your shield. You should be able to avoid this with a roll, or if they're right on the edge of your shield an air-doged back hop might do the trick. I say air dodged because as soon as you jump they'll most likely go for Shuttle Loop.
C) Tornado to wear your shield. Just angle your shield up and weather it. If you get lucky with the spacing you might be able to jab after the Tornado finishes, but if they stay on teh ground you're better off rolling away when it's near its end to get some room.

Recommended Stages: I'd say good stage to go are Battlefield, Smashville, Delfino Plaza. All three have room for Ganon to move in platforms, but all have low vertical blast zones. Gerudo to IDA should kill MK on these stages at around 90% (someone verify this please?), which for Ganon can be done in 4 Gerudo's with follow-ups .

Stay-Away Stages: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes. FD is too large on the blast zones to KO MK effectively, and the open space gives MK too much room to move around you and recover. Yohi's is a nightmare for Ganon against MK, seeing as he can chae you off the edge and F-Air you the whole way and recover in the one go. Jungle Japes is too horizontal, and the water Gerudo is too much of a risk for what it's worth.

BAN: Frigate Orpheon. Despite the common opinion I think Frigate is the ultimate Ban for Ganon against MK. Both stages give MK too much room to move and too few options for Ganon's recovery, but Frigate gives Ganon nothing to work with. No awesome ledges, no spacing options, no room. At least you can run for a bit on Rainbow Cruise...

OVERALL RATING: 85:15 MK. It's a pain and it's common, but not Ganon's worst matchup. MK can't pressure you into approaching, and since all MK's approach anyway that's one less thing to worry about. Still, it'll take some serious skills to win out this matchup.

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Vermanubis said:

Looks like you guys got it covered for the most part. :D But I might as well throw my opinion in.

Summary

MK is personally the match-up that makes me the most nervous. MK, to be perfectly honest, has ONE thing that scares me. ONE. And that's shuttle loop. If Meta Knight has one claim to Ganon **** among his billions of others, it's uair > shuttle loop. I can't recount how many times I've been killed at 20% due to this.

Aside from shuttle loop, other cautions are common sense. Such as Bahamut and others stated, the things you want to avoid at all costs are being off-stage, ****ing around on the ledge and jumping too much, unless you're walling with nairs/bairs. The best general playstyle against MK as Ganon is to remain grounded. This is because MK has one flaw: poor horizontal aerial speed. He can't approach from the air very well, except for tornado, which is easily punishable. This means he approaches with ftilts, dash attacks and so forth. While these are excellent approaches due to his range and priority, they leave him open to easy dairs.

Suffice to say, your most invaluable moves will be dair, dtilt, gerudo and bair. Bair is excellent as a safe bait for misspaced fairs, dtilt stops his ground approaches, gerudo for obvious reasons (buffered iDA can kill fresh at around 90% from Gerudo) and dair for reasons mentioned above.

Now, don't count on these methods to always work as well as you'd like. Some MKs get a kick out of getting their camp on hard. They'll dair camp and just flourish with fairs. But this is still circumventable, it just requires a significantly larger amount of patience.

Specific Strategies

Tornado - Needs no explanation. Tornado is unfortunately not as easily punishable as Ganon as it is with other characters. MK can do one of two things while tornadoing, and your punishment options will vary depending on which. They will either try to ride the full tornado out over your shield, or they will retreat mid-tornado. For the former, it's best to not hold your shield out the whole time, rather, spotdodge right near the end of the tornado so you'll have a slight frame advantage to punish. For the latter, read the retreat (most popular option when shielded) and try to punish with wizkick if within distance.

Shuttle Loop - MK's favorite move (even more than tornado). There is only one real instance in which shuttle loop is truly threatening, and that's when you're high in the air. Usually done after uair juggles, a shuttle loop is virtually inescapable. There's nothing you can really do to counter it, but I have one very valuable piece of advice. Bad DI is a bigger enemy than shuttle loop itself. Unless you DI very well, it will likely kill you, or send you far off enough stage that MK can keep you away. While being juggled, try to airdodge as best you can, but hold the control stick to DI before you're shuttle looped, to ensure you don't DI poorly.

Recovery - The worst thing you can do against MK is recovery in a predictable fashion. The best thing to do when recovering, which will dramatically improve your chances of survival, is to wait out MK. Most MKs will try to ledge drop > nair to stage spike you, or shuttle loop/fair you. So bait them. Wait for them to drop from the ledge so you can sneak the ledge. Also, don't be afriad to uair as a deterrent while recovering. Most Ganons seem to be afraid to use offense as a defense.

Common Tricks and Follow-Ups

Ledge loop - Most MKs like to hang on the for a second and do a shuttle loop onto the stage. If they time it properly (which most do) they'll have no landing lag. So when MK's on the edge, seriously just stay the **** away lol.

Dtilt > Dash grab - Not much you can do about this, since the dtilt trips you. Just good to know about it.

Uair > Shuttle Loop - Discussed above. Best way to deal with it is to do preemptive DI. Hold the control stick away from the shuttle loop so you don't end up DIing poorly.

Drill rush ledge cancel > Nair - Not very threatening, but still a good idea to watch out for it. Don't recovery idiotically.

Reverse ledge shuttle loop - When MK drops down from the ledge and shuttle loops backwards.


Closing

Last bit of information, as Bahamut also said, the best thing you can do is get a lead; even if a small one. This means MK will get impatient and approach you. When MK approaches callously, it's dangerous as hell for him. Every MK I've ever faced and won against, I got a small lead and played conservatively from there. He becomes very easily readable when he's the one making approaches.

But in closing, the big problem with implementing all of thse strategies is timing. MK is so blisteringly fast and has such range/priority, that theorizing strategies isn't the problem, so much as it is successfully implementing them. I'd say it's a good 90:10.

Ban: Rainbow Cruise (obvious reasons)
Practice on/be prepared for: Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza and Brinstar
Counterpick: Smashville. While the platform isn't much, it can be a massive help situationally. It can catch MK's shuttle loops, leaving him briefly vulnerable to aerials. If you grab him on it, you can grab release him into an fsmash and it can save your recoveries.

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Terodactyl Yelnats said:

I play the best MKs of British Columbia quite oftenly, I play Clouderz often in tournaments and Ugg all the time. I win against Clouderz 40:60 in his favor but almost never on Ugg.

I'm completely serious about this and works a lot. Approach Meta Knight and don't let him think. I don't mean rush in with a Dash attack like a headstrong, ignorant player, I mean get in close and pressure him. I've been told by Ugg that he doesn't like when I'm close to him because he's scared of our damaging hits. When we're close and not attacking, he does stuff that he usually wouldn't even if it's just a change in spacing. I get my punishes off and reset to the pressure.

When we just sit there defensively, we let Meta Knight have his way to think and act accordingly with approaches and walls. If we get close and only attack about 15% of the time when we know it will hit. It will scare him to damage thinking he'll get 20+ damage. Make him the one to rush in with fairs and nados and punish him. Get close to about two of your Dtilt ranges and stay in that range. Meta Knight will be flustered and will try his most least risk options kind of predictably to your favor in a sense. Remember you have to make it look like you're running in like an idiot only to stop and in his face.

There will be a lot of variables in play and you have to play it according to the situation, but if it's close percents and you've both got your ground, try this out. If you keep doing it after you get the lead it'll only anger him more and make you more happy.

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PK-ow! said:

How to play vs. Meta Knight:

1 . First you want to get into
1. Unplug their controller
2. If 1 doesn't work or there are too many unskewered eyes in the venue.... ****, you'll actually have to play the game.

Okay.

3. Don't jump.

If you jump, you get juggled. If you get put offstage, you take 80%, and then juggled or gimped. If MK juggles you or gimps, you die. (Dying means you lose)

This rule contradicts a later point where I'm going to say to Thunderstorm. Well too bad. Don't ****ing jump. This means don't reflex DAir when he gets "in your space" like a ****ing '08 Ganon. March '08 Ganon. It doesn't accomplish anything anyway, even if you cross MK up.

We learned Ganon has risk reward. In this matchup, you don't take risks. You play perfectly.

4.
Ganon has one option to stop a basic walk-up, and that's ftilt. This ftilt is safe on block, but only if you get him with the sole of the boot, not any closer. Else he shieldgrabs.
However, it's safe in the sense you can do something before MK can hit you... but you'll be forced to shield + something if he runs up right after blocking. Remember though that he has to *run*, and at that distance it means DA, Dash grab (which has a goofy box from MK), or jump aerial, no normals. JC Usmash is punishable f10 at least after shield drop and is completely abuseable if spot dodged, so it's just inferior to DA; don't worry about it. He can't dash up shield unless he stops right in front of you, and Ganon's grab (lag) is faster than his insemination (when he gets serious). In short: Don't answer options he doesn't even have.

Thankfully, ftilt also has a range that compares to Ganon and MK's roll such that the threat of walk-up ftilt from you is real pressure. MK has to do something before you get to that range, unless he's planning to dodge. This opens you into Fsmash game, Ganon's general slow brutal murdering techniques, and what I'm getting to called "Ganon's mixup."
Oh, and perfect shield dtilt. On reaction. I'm not even joking.


For other kinds of approaches, you've got pivot grab - sliding pivot or not. (To slide, enter the grab at about the point the sound finishes, or when you could have foxtrotted. It's a friction effect for Ganon, so it has to do with where his foot is.) Ganon's grab, surprisingly, will get MK out of the air, but you had to already have cleared a certain distance. The slide is, if applied in the situation I want to communicate, safe on whiff, if you use only when MK is in the air, and he doesn't Dimensional Cape, because he can't cover the horizontal distance.
To shore up pivot grab's goofiness, if terrain is flat, or you're retreating into lower ground, there's thunder storming. TS makes it hard for MK to roll around underneath you, but it will lose to "wait". (The pivot grab is helped by uneven terrain.)
I need to stress TS in this MU is about taking initiative. TS before he gets under you; see how fast his reaction is, and what he likes to do with split seconds. You're showing ownership of your space, you're flinging your strongest box around, the one that kills MK in five. You hope to hit but you don't expect to. But if you could possibly be read into doing it and whiff punished? It's a bad reflex, stifle it. Mix in more grab / footsie.
You only do it because of him rolling around. And he will start rolling around, because if he doesn't he can't really move. His super F/DAir makes it look like he's mobile, but he's barely more mobile than you. He sucks out of dash. Without Roll you can corner him in so many ways, plus Fsmash is basically only answerable with roll, even if on reaction.
(btw, don't Dsmash. NAir is better.)


5.
If MK becomes very aerial, or jumps from far away and comes in from the vertical, you've got Usmash if you can actually nail the moment of his descent (MK's aerials can't clash with attacks; Tornado doesn't work 'down'). I stress "vertical", I mean 90 degrees. Abuse that IASA and act between MK's jumps so you either hit, or can shield and get away if he jumped again.

If he's not vertical, but is 'aerial' in the sense I mean here, he's hanging around your head. For that, he's obviously going to play around your A, but what you've got is a pivot grab as said, a slide effect out of your dodge if you want it, a nice roll, and BAir. There's an art to using BAir in a way that won't be caught by the sword, that will hit MK sooner than he thinks, and gives you a kind of initiative if it actually deters as an air anti-air. (Ganon should land before MK). Remember BAir only works for an MK "up"; one or two air jumps above the ground, for him. BAir sucks a-t-g.
BAir ends up being the move you use the least, because it's really bad if baited, but you hope to make it the one that sticks out in your opponent's mind the most, so he underestimates your movement tools.


6.
So understand his (MK's) dilemma here. He can't go through jab (although he'd love to cut your hand with his FAir; don't be tricked). So either he gets into the air and comes from mostly above that line, or he gets within your bubble first and comes up from below it. You have less ways to hit him if he comes from above, but keep cool and he actually has little ways to hit you. Refer to step 3. Roll, stay center stage, dash around (for pivot grab). Think ahead to when he runs out of jumps, save shield because you can't let Nado stab it. Just don't ****ing jump. Not even if your Uair would hit, don't ****ing do it.

A few small words: If you have tons of shield, sure, its not in your favour, but you can let MK come down through it. When he's low on jumps, he can't repeat rising DAir too many times; what he'll do is aerial, then something else to keep you blocking, then something on block or a get-away/grab. Answer these, of course, by waiting for the moment he's the one who can choose wrong, and either block something unsafe, or calmly drop shield (/ roll a grab) and chase his get away. You have to do this sometimes or MK can always land when he wants, by telegraphing this very attempt.​

When he comes in from low, he's got one set of tools which have basic answers from you, and the other set of tools which are the "strong" ones you'll actually see. Study his grab box; it's actually crap, and I paid for it SO LONG not knowing when it wouldn't even connect. Answer this 'low' approach with pivot grabs, TS, ftilt when he ****s up or hesitates.


His 'high' approach is better for you IMO, with payoff, but it requires a higher energy level. A lot of interactions go on in a second in this situation. The low approach is simplistic and at a low energy level, which MK styles may disfavour, but it lets him work on you psychologically more. You have to blank your mind and be inherently random while still paying attention, when playing the low game. Might be good to forget about predicting, and make him the one who has to predict. If you predict all the time, you just betray what your fears and expectations are. The high approach isn't mindgames, but technical interaction. You need air control, focus, foxtrotting / pivot grabbing (which I don't have consistently...), and not just any pivot grabbing but control over the two kinds relevant here; you need to move on the ground without taking eyes off of him in the air; if the stage isn't FD, you need awareness of the terrain and the consequences of the irregularities. Oh, and I understate this all the time, but you need to know how fast you walk, how fast MK jumps, falls, and drifts. You have to piece the (implied) numbers together to see the spatial relationships as they could work out a couple dozen frames from now, unconsciously (as unconsciously as you link Choke -> dtilt on peeps by now).


7.
Apply all of the above, and if the opponent isn't perfect (<==> the opponent makes a mistake (<==> if you've got a bloody chance in Hell) ), the opponent is going to lose his positioning. He's now close but not too close, has no momentum, has no frame advantage, and is probably "landing" (past the point of jumping).
You now apply "Ganon's mixup".
Ganon's mixup is the following garbage:
Dash up, Choke.
Dash up, Dash Attack
Dash up, stop (true pivot cancel, ideally), chase response.

Ganon's DA beats any attack, jump, and is situationally good on rolling. Choke beats shield, nothing, and late attacks.
The 'dash up' is because you've got to make most of 'em look like Dash Attack even though shield ***** it. There's a certain distance you use the Choke or DA from where you'll stop more than a leap from MK if you go through invincibility. You're trying to do this though where he'll feel too at risk to roll; you want to gel him; mostly, don't take the 'mixup' but rather look for an Fsmash, getting him to block at tip... or that ftilt.
If he indeed dodges you're kind of boned, but that's connected to the third item there, and this eighth point:


8.
If Meta Knight rolls, sidesteps, or air dodges, murder him.
I said don't jump up there. Okay, really, don't jump. But now you've got Air choke, Smashes, Nair, and BAir. Air Choke combines seamlessly with kara BAir. NAir is for MKs who haven't technically mastered the stringest requirements of his pressure. But make sure MK is 50%+ or he'll attack you after hit. BAir still sucks air to ground.

Gauge whether dtilt or ftilt is going to kill this stock. Depends how much ftilt staled. (I've forgotten, does ftilt stale on shield?) In actual practice, I've found ftilt still kills when it should off Choke.


9.
You now hit the opponent. Congrats. Don't chase him, because you've got nothing. Start over. Either MK lands far away or does an air approach. Watch out for Nado, but get reasonably close to his landing point. Don't get too close to edge, don't get overeager. Unlike the Snake matchup, MK can get that landing, and you don't need to keep it from him to win.


X.
Remember that some things MK does aren't safe on hit at low percents, or situationally. ftilt from him at tip give you time to make him uncomfortable, if you don't screw up and turn around or shield, but consciously roll or shield pressure him back. NAir, likewise, actually terrible if it doesn't induce tumble.
Don't play afraid of these attacks; you literally want to get hit by them, as they're the best opening you'll see.



tl; dr

BAIT.

Or, you know, lose. Three straight stocks. While he toys with you seeing how many unpunished Tornadoes he can get off. Or gives you one stock, to see how long it actually takes you when he DIs, and how many trades he can get because of his parallel-rules-moveset bs + your reckless spacing. I know people really do this.


So there's my analysis.

Opinion on the matchup: 0:100. Ganon can't win you scrub. You actually thought this would help you win? Dair dair dair Nado Meta Knight da bess, scrub.


[clipped]



Murder

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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:

MATCH UP VIDEOS:

##########

||| SNAKE |||
70:30
Discussion Thread
Finished on 08/08. Open for new discussion.

OVERALL: Snake's gameplay is pretty Solid. He can camp us very well, space himself the way he wants with his coding-error tilts, control the stage as he pleases with Snake Dashing, C4s, Claymores and 'Nades and even screw our recovery a bit. His weak spot, however, is where we do our best: the air. Once in the air, it's time for Ganondorf Murder Airlines to launch a massive wave.

PRIORITIES:

THE MATCH: Our first task is to get him into the air, but it's not like he'll approach us with some stupid and reckless move. Snake players tend to be very cautious and start the match by either setting his stage traps or 'nade camping. In either case, you must not fall for his tricks and have to bait him into a DACUS or DA approach, which we can punish "easily". To force that approach, you can either throw his 'nades back or just dodge/shield them if he's cooking (holding them until they're about to explode) them. Thing is... don't let him get a wide % gap.

If he isn't approaching at all and you're in disadvantage, you'll have to move first. Suggest a timed Gerudo/Aerudo, since most Snake players punish approaches by 'nade -> spotdodging -> grab. If you run, stop and then Gerudo, you'll mindgame yourself to the advantage. If you land a Gerudo, Snake can be hit by a variety of moves, none of them killing him due to his weight and considering DI, so you're free to do what you think it's best. Also, if you foresee a GU Attack, you can Stomp him into the air, which is where we want to have him.

Once in the air, Snake's almost useless. The most he can do is push a 'nade and shield himself from further harm, but it also sents him further in the air if you trade hits with it. Do as you please while he's in the air, but don't get cocky. Some Snakes can try to push you off by FF BAiring you. Be aware of that and keep you juggling.

KO%? Good. Now you have your Snake at 180%, Try to FTilt him or FAir him. It probably won't kill him if he DIs. If he DIed, he'll go for the high recovery. FoG. That's it! IT'S ****ING FLIGHT OF GANON TIME! If you catch up to him, you can do as Vermanubis and then eat Snakes for breakfast with UAirs and every other move (UAir is the best for the high KO). However, if your opponent isn't at high %s, he'll maybe prefer the low C4 recovery. If he's far from the stage and not aiming for the tech on the stage's walls, Wizkick travel and then MURDER. If he's near the stage, MURDER with DAir, Tipman or even UTilt's spike! You can, also, Aerudo his Cypher and then gently KO him.

If you're too far in the lead, Snake can quickly close the gab with FTilt and, at high %s, he wont think twice before baiting you into his UTilt or C4 KO. Use this at your advantage. Even if FTilt is almost nonpunishable, you may try to PS the second hit and then Jabing/DTilting him. The timing is the hardest part, but it's very rewarding to do so, since you sent Snake away and keeps him out of your range (or send him into the air, in DTilt's case). For the UTilt, just try to avoid approaching him in he ground/low aerial. This prevents the move's sweetspot and, most of times, the KO.

Also, remember that Snake can Grab Release us to UTilt and, in some walk off stages, easy Sourspotted BAir KO. This is something to keep an eye on even more than DThrow chases. Speaking of chases, avoid Chain Choking Snake. His 'nades and traps can interupt our chase and keep us from doing more things to him.

Some Snakes like to avoid your aerials by crouching. While crouching, Grab, running grab, jab, ftilt, Warlock Punch, Wizkick and low Aerudo just won't hit him. It's really bothersome. To punish that, FF an DAir and lag the entire world for the hit or just DTilt instead of aerialing him.

GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Above Average [6/10]
Gerudo outprioritizes Snake's DA, DACUS and can grab him between his FTilt and 3rd Jab hits if timmed right. It's a good punishing option to these actions, alongside with pivot grab. Gerudo also set ups for FTilt, which is a very good gimp/EG start for us.
I would suggest Jab almost 100% of the time, unless you can read your opponent's next action. This gets Snake off you and prevents further damage.

EDGE GUARDING AND GIMPING: Very good [8/10]
We can do as we please with Snake offstage. His options are very limited and we have enough to deal with them.

TRICKS AND TIPS:
-Avoid his GR at all costs. You can try to NAir since it punishes Snake if he misses the timing, but you'll lag.
-Don't go for the Thunderstorm. Snake can pull a 'nade between DAirs.
-Don't try to shieldgrab Snake during either his Jab or FTilt. You WONT reach him.
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smashkng said:

It's easy to grab Snakes when they pull out Nades inside the range of the Gerudo/grab range, and it doesn't hit Grenades. You must be quick with it though. It's easy to Ganoncide Snakes as well if they pull out Grenades too close to the edge, though a Snake who knows the matchup will not fall in those traps.

If we can get him to the air we can juggle him with Uair, something that we can't with MK, but Snake's tilts are pain to deal with when he spaces them because our OoS options suck (but I believe we can Dtilt OoS if they're unspaced), which combined with Grenades makes this matchup so hard in large stages. I find it impossible in Delfino cause I just get camped to death there. He can also grab release CG us to DA or Dthrow near the edge, and can gimp easily with the Bair, so prepare to DI like crazy offstage in case you get Baired. It may even stage spike so be careful, though it is pretty risky for Snake, it is a big threat if it hits.

Overall I think it is 25/75, depending on the size of the stage and the amount of plataforms. Hard but still easier than MK even though that ratio already sucks. We have hope if we get him to the air (like almost all matchups in Brawl with Snake) or get him to recover low (landing a Ftilt near the edge), but he lives so long he can survive a fresh grounded Dair at over 100% and he has long rolls with crazy damage input in Ftilt which is hard to punish while the Utilt kills us at 130% (having best DI possible) with crazy range and shield pushback and Grenades to have obstacles while we approach, cause we lack projectiles.

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Terodactyl Yelnats said:

Snake is one of my favorite Match-ups. I like beating his ftilt with our dtilt, I like beating his ftilt with our dair, I like beating his ftilt with run away reverse SideB, I love beating his ftilt with powershield > grab/ ftilt.

Most Snake's nowadays only use ftilt to punish which it's godly at doing. He'll just camp and Dacus smartly while you're getting annoyed. Thankfully once we do get in his zone, we beat him in terms of options since he will only rely on jab, ftilt and pivot grab. He will not utilt you because he will save it for the kill.

If we have him recovering, we have a massive advantage on him. If we're the one's recovering, he gets the advantage. Snake can actually gimp us with bairs unlike he can do to other characters. Watch yourself and DI, and always press the shield button as soon as the bair hits you because it might hit you into the stage.

Grenades are not that big of a deal, there are no ways I can list what to do when he uses them since they have much variety to usage. Just play Snake a lot and Grenades become nothing to worry about that much.

Ganon's defensive options are great this match up. We can defensively use SH Dair, SH Uair Tipman, run away reverse Gerudo, SH bair, Dtilt, and a respectable pivot grab.

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Clai said:

A Snake player that knows how to exploit Ganon's flaws is going to be murder on Ganon. It's not the grenade camping and explosives that are going to get him, though, as those can be avoided with not too much difficulty. It's the combination between Jab, Ftilt, and Dthrow. Dthrow especially neuters us, as he can either get a chain of consecutive Dthrows or else just use his tilts to give us completely unnecessary amounts of damage. Ganon's close-combat skills are balls at best, and a good Snake will abuse that and box you all day long. Then, of course, there's that 6-frame Utilt to finish Ganon off when he needs to.

The prime focus of this matchup is to keep out of Snake's boxing range which, thankfully, Ganon can do a decent job at. Snake's height allows Ganon to strike him with Nairs, Uairs, and Bairs, so make good use of these aerials when fighting Snake. If you can bait an Ftilt from Snake, you can Thunderstomp his sorry hide and proceed to mess him up. As said before, getting Snake offstage is a must, but keep in your mind how long Snake is vulnerable when he's in his cypher, because I've made the mistake of going for a kill thinking Snake is unprotected when he lets go of cypher and puts me in massive amounts of trouble.

Matchup-Ratio: 30-70 A hard battle, but completely manageable.

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GanonkingAbyss said:

I like using dtilt and side b vs snake, dtilt and uair are good for juggling and u can punish his airdodges if hes recoverying or landing after a juggle. side b can grab him out of cypher offstage, and if u get an early dair, or if he messes up I always go after him to footstool his down b recovery, which i also do if i grab him out of his cypher.

I approach by running up to him (w/o getting in his grab/tilt range) when hes camping w/grenades, ps the grenades, and roll back, u can punish him if he uses dacus, and he'll eventually do something to get away from u or attack u if u keep doing this and u can punish him if he rolls away or other stuff. u can also ps his dsmash if he uses it.

Be careful w/landing when being juggled bc of ganon's terrible landing lag, he can grab, ftilt, set off a c4 on the ground or some other stuff if u mess up, or air dodge early epecting a utitl if ur falling near him.


How do u get back on stage if hes spamming up b?

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Bahamut777 said:

FINALLY GOT SOME TIME TO WRITE MY OPINION ON THIS!

Our best MU among the top tiers.

Snake can, and WILL, camp us to death with, probably, the best spacing options in the whole game. 'Nade camps, FTilts, Snake Dashing and other traps do score KOs with C4, Claymore and, of course, UTilts.

Our job here is simple: force a DACUS approach. This can be done by avoiding 'nades/throwing them back at Snake. If you take too much damage, Snake will not have reasons to approach, so be aware of that. I think a good amount of damage you can take is around 50%. If you take more than that, this strategy is ruinned. Once you piss the Snake off, he'll DACUS approach with almost 95% chance. Gerudo -> punish him. NOW you can start the match. Why would you want to start like this? This "teaches" Snake that he CAN'T approach us with DACUS or else he'll get punished hard. This makes our ground controle much easier.

Now that we have an afraid Snake playing, we can start approaching. I recommend SHBair. It's very good because it can go above FTilt's first hitbox and still hit Snake if perfectly spaced, wich is not that hard considering Snake's height. If he sticks to nade camping, Ganon's Glide Toss -> Gerudo can be good and can even link to the 'nade explosion in some cases (your port must be higher than his). Be aware of Snake's pivot grab, tho'. It outprioritizes Gerudo.

Not too much secrets here. We have to stick with keeping Snake afraid of approaching and racking % whenever we can and, somehow, deal with the camping. We should NOT be hasty fot he KO, however, since Snake can live longer than we can imagine. I like to save FAir AND FTilt for KOs in this MU. It works great, since it's shield safe and, even if it doesn't kill him, takes him offstage so we can FoG chase him, DAir spike him and all the other stuff we love. At very high %s, he won't be able to C4 recovery and THAT'S what we want most! He'll have to recovery high and then we can fly to the Win!

I don't even have to mention our big offstage advantage here.

But, if you're being *** handes, calm down. In this case, you should try to bait FTilting or other "laggy" moves and then DTilt him. Sweet DTilt has enough range to clash with the sweetspoted UTilt(!). Stick with this and Gerudo FUs to take back the % advantage. Beware of FTilts, so you don't mess your DI with crouching, tho'.

I would like to take Snake to Brinstar. Yes, Brinstar. Many people think it's Snake's stage, but I don't think so. The platforms, irregular ground and acid keeps him on air, where he sucks and we rock. It also takes out his 'nade camp and the Claymore planting, when the acid comes up. Snake dashing is rendered almost useless by those "blobs" in the main ground. The only thing we have to watch for is the UTilt. once we're cool with that, we can have advantage.

Avoid stages where he can camp like hell and keep the ground in his hands. FD, SV, BF, Halberd and other stages more... "neutral" favoritizes Snake. I recommend banning FD against him.

Moreso... 65:35 Snake's favor.

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Breezy said:

I know the discussion is closed, but I read through the Snake MU and didn't see a single thing about instant tossing nades back at him. It's one of the most useful little tricks when it comes to trying to keep him from controlling the stage as hard as he wants.

To instant toss, catch the nade with with whatever shield button you please, and smash the c stick in the direction you want to throw it. You can even perform this while a nade is on the ground. Just SH -> airdodge -> c stick right away and voila, nade flying at snake before he even knows whats going on.

This lessens the likelyhood of getting ***** by nade stripping. More than that, it'll condition the snake to cook his nades perfectly, which you can then easily avoid with a spotdodge. Sometimes the snake will even get sick of starting to be out camped by a Ganon and approach, which is when you capitalize.

Again, sorry for posting when the discussion was supposed to be closed, but this is just too important of a tool in this MU to be ignored.

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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:

MATCH UP VIDEOS:

##########

||| DIDDY KONG |||
75:25
Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 08/20. Open for new discussion.

OVERALL:Diddy is very annoying, with that stupid yells on every move huge load of banana combos/strings/locks/gimps/KOs/wins. It's very hard to even stand on the ground on this MU. But, if Ganon ever get control over at least one banana, you lock about half of Diddy's options. If you can control both of them, this MU is yours.

PRIORITIES:

THE MATCH: Ok. First thing to do is put up in your mind that you're gonna live high, so warm up your DI. Diddy can't KO you very well asside from DSmash and, luckly, a fresh FAir. You can SDI out of FSmash's KO and then, living up to 200% with moderate ease. Now that you have your mind set on survival (AND NOT ON CLASHING AND AGGROING DIDDY), let's get on with this.

Getting control over a naner is almost a must here. This will prevent you from being locked/comboed to the instant death. If you gain control over both, better. You can do this by (Power)Shielding and then Z-Catching, Aerial Catching, Thunderstorming (very useful), Dash Attacking and just picking it up. Also, you can go above the naners with Murder Rail, so you wont slip. Also, SHAD not just picks the banana up, but also avoid tripping (if there isn't another banana below you, that is), making it very useful when moving arround here. Be aware of your shield and try to angle it down most of time. This prevents the poke. If you get a banana, don't throw it a Diddy without thinking. Throw it on the ground or upward or just stay with it for a while. You can try throwing it back at Diddy if he has the other one in his hand. This'll prevent him from taking it and will give you an opening.

You can only rack up damage when Diddy isn't attacking you madly. This can take a while and be very frustrating, but it doesn't mean you can go all aggressive on Diddy and hope to do some damage. He'll grab you and then string you to 100% easily. Once he stopped, focus on your first objective and then proceed with murdering. If you can ever Gerudo Diddy with a naner in hand, remember the almighty Banana Choking, which can kill Diddy at 80% if done near the edge with an angled FSmash. You can also time a FTilt -> Edgeguard if he isn't at high enough %s.

Edgeguard on Diddy can be easy if he recovers with UpB, no matter where he tries to recover to. However, while recovering with SideB, he have some invencibility frames, a grab-spike hitbox and a later hitbox, which is the only one we can hit safely, most times with a DAir to his death. If there are bananas onstage, you can even try to mix your edge guard with items so you can be more effective.

If you're at a stock disadvantage, you can't rely on Gerudocide to reset the match, since Diddy's not likely going to air fight you while you recover. He'll most likely want to set his banana games and try something around the edge. So, you'll have to try getting the lead first.

GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Without banana: [5/10] Average / With banana: [11/10] TOO FRIGIN GOOD
Banana Choking is our main way to KO in this MU, alongside with gimping and edgeguarding. Be sure to keep an eye on it and don't get predictable.


Gerudo outtakes Diddy's Dash Attack and Glide Toss (if you're not hit by the naner, that is). It's a bit hard to land it, but very rewarding.

EDGE GUARD AND GIMPING: [7/10] Good
Diddy's options to get back onstage, while limited, can be very versatile on the hands of a good person. Tipman and sourspoted NAir + Edgehog are your main tools here. DAir, if he's recovering high with SideB.
Be aware, tho', that going for the gimp can be risky. If you mess up, you may end up being grabbed by SideB or, even worse, hit by UpB's rampaging barrels. This can, and likely will, put you in a bad situation.

TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Shield grab is almost useless in this MU, since most of Diddy's approaches either involve shield poking or put him behind you, where you can't grab. Also, most of his other moves have high shield push and can't be shield grabbed, wven with Shield DI.
-Aerudo, Murder Rail and Thunderstorming are your main ways to get some damage, since these three don't slip and the last one picks up the bananas.
-If you can grab both bananas, try to keep one of them in your hand and the other one behind you.
-If you hold the attack button while picking up a banana, you can use any smash attack you like without tossing it. This is very good against unwarned players.
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Terodactyl Yelnats said:

Oh I forgot aboot this Match-up thread.

Diddy for me is easy to handle, Ganon ability to use Diddy's Nanerz effectively is something that only comes from experience. Most Diddy's try to Glide Toss forward to grab, I powershield the nanerz to dtilt/sideB/SH dair/Dash attack or jump to z catch the naner. Mixing up all those options and getting control over the Nanerz will be your goal.

I can't really generalize what to do when you have naner control as your options are very circumstancial. But if you get a choke then you're in complete control. When you have a naner while choking them, most of the time they will only roll away or get-up attack. If you have a lead then you can humiliate them by getting in two or three chokes before Naner to Fsmash them.

Once you have them offstage you can tipman them easily out of their double jump or UpB, just be careful with the timing. The last thing we need is them getting you with a SideB jump.

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Bahamut777 said:

I think ths MU is very hard. Almos unwinnable.

Ganon's first priority here is to take control of both bananas. You can't go there and mess around in the ground. You'll get trip'd, comboed and, at high %s, killed with a fresh DSmash. Use Thunderstorming (this thing is just too good in this MU) and ZCatch to get the bananas and keep them behind you. You can also use them for Banana Choking, but I guarantee you: Diddys don't like being Gerudo-ed. They'll do what they can to avoid it. Don't depend on Banana Choking for anything. But, if you can hit it, MURDER WITH PLEASURE!

If you can avoid the banana combos and take them from Diddy, the rest is very easy. I think this MU is very hard because doing so is almost impossible against someone that know what is doing.

If you can take Diddy offstage, gimping with reverse UAir -> Edgehog is the most secure option, but watch out for diddy SideB's "spike". I get hit by it now and then and it's too **** frustrating. >.< Same goes for UpBs explosion spike.

C.pick in BF or Brinstar. If you're confident, courageous and drunk, cpick Rainbow Cruise. Pirate Ship is also good if it's avaible.

Ban FD at all cost. SV and Pictochat are the other options for banning.

70:30~80:20 Diddy.

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fonzi21 said:

Ok heres my input on the MU. I have learned a lot as well from those matches so don't follow everything you see in those old matches.

First off you have to understand this MU is one you absolutely have to keep your head in. Diddy is going to rack a LOT of damage quickly and it's going to be frustrating, but you have to keep playing defensively do NOT start playing aggro against Diddy.

Bananas:
Don't throw them at Diddy unless he is holding one himself. Ideal times to throw them are when he is throwing the one he has, or when he is off the map.
Wizkick flies over bananas on the ground and can catch Diddy off guard if they aren't paying attention.
Dair is your friend. Learn to Powershield Bananas as much as possible or Dair catch them.
When throwing Bananas back at Diddy kong you should have only two objectives on your mind. Stop his attack or What are you going to do to follow up after the Banana trips. The banana hitting diddy is not good damage and it's a waste if you don't follow it up. Look at the trip as after a Gerudo he has the same options. If you also use it to stop Diddy's rush it's good.

Map Control:
Stages to ban is Final Destination EVERY TIME. If you don't ban this stage good Diddy kong's will crush you. YOU NEED a stage to retreat to a platform when either A. your shield gets low or B. getting back on the map after being forced off. Norfair is a fine stage against Diddy Don't let AZ tell you differently. Thanks to Clai our ledge Planking ***** him and so does our Uair. Control the bottom platform and you win. I wouldn't recommend it as a counterpick because it gives Diddy kong to many options to recover. My favorite stage is Battlefield against Diddy.
In the middle of the stage if you grab Diddy throw him Up because Diddy is weak when we are underneath him and our Uair is ****. if on the sides throw him off for possible gimps.

You have to chase Diddy off the map for gimps. most likely they will try to Side B on to the ledge or whatever. Time your ledge grab to make him miss the ledge and fall and Uair him. also go for the tipmans they **** his recovery. Make sure you come down on top of him or he will catch you with the monkey flip and most likely gimp you.

Stopping Banana Assualts:
PS them then either A. jump and catch them B. Dair because you expect the Diddy to rush in (He will most likely throw the 2nd banana and go for a grab or Dash attack. Dair grabs the banana and hits Diddy.) C. Better Diddys will Fair you after they see you shield the first Banana if they don't have the 2nd in their Hand. Just roll away after PSing the first Banana or Wait and Shield the Fair then DA to pick up the Banana and possibly hit Diddy depending on their spacing. (This is risky sometimes so judge accordingly)
D. some Diddys might just stand there if the Banana doesn't hit. So if they do this grab the Banana after the PS and just wait for your opportunity.

Double Banana Setup:
Banana in front of Diddy, he has one in hand and is shooting peanuts. slowly move in wait for the first throw shield it then IDA, you pick up the grounded Banana and can hit Diddy. If he shields it quickly buffer a roll away or a shield.

What to do with Banana's:
Throw them up or to force them into certain areas. Use Ganon's Glidetoss its very good. Buffer Ftilts if they Trip or Gerudo or grabs if they shield. put them on platforms and use them as bait, our Bair and Uair **** so use them as punishers.

Edge Guarding:
Diddys Options for the most part:
Fair....Wall hop Banana or Bair....Wall hop Monkey flip...the rest is basics.
Dont contest the fair unless your not afraid to take a hit and are willing to risk the PS attempt for possible punishment. Ftilt WILL trade hits if spaced right.
Wall hop Banana or Bair. The bair shouldn't hit it's just a spacing move. The banana you MUST grab immediately and get it into your possession. Throw it up and resume the edge guard. The monkey flip is tough since he can grab or attack out of it and the attack has great priority. I suggest space a Bair or try to predict what he will do Shield the attack or Dodge the grab and try to punish.

When tripped I usually just do the regular get up. its fast.

Things to look out for:
Bair out of shield. it's quick and if they PS the Dair it can hit.
Diddy using Fair to pick up Banana's. It catches everyone off guard sometimes.
Instant tosses. If you don't know what this is go look it up. it's essential and you can abuse it too.
Avoid Spot Dodging at mid-high percents an early gimp or death because of bad DI can really hurt.
Dont PS the banana and not get out of the way. it will fall and trip you lol.

Recovering:
Banana's can knock you out of your jump be careful when recovering low.
Uair ***** anything Diddy will do to try and Gimp you.
Mix it up, don't always recover low.
AVOID air dodging on the map when he has a banana in his hand. he will just Glidetoss back to a smash attack.

ways to Kill:
Dair, Uair, and DA are your best bets. Go for the gimps. you must attack him off the map.

Your percentage of Death should be around the 180's because a lot of times Diddy will stale his smashes after a banana hit, with good DI you should live pretty high. Abuse this ability and make sure you kill Diddy before he gets above 120%. almost anything kills him at this percentage. Its not always going to happen but that's the Ideal death percent.

This is all I can think of currently. If I think of more I will add it, if it's wrong or you disagree feel free to post and I will discuss it with anyone. I think the MU is 55:45 Maybe 60:40 Diddy.

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fonzi21 said:

@itemfinder - you should never die to the Usmash. and really you won't hit Diddy with a lot of Usmashes either. Dair can kill at 100 fresh on like BF maybe 110 I havent checked it recently. just depends on DI.

Also yes we shouldn't get gimped by Diddy kong unless we make some kind of Error. peanuts aren't a threat off the map, and Naners shouldn't gimp you. Also don't be afraid to use your jump early to recover high, recovering high can be very beneficial because it can avoid being edge guarded, just mix up your DI so your landing isn't easily read.

Getting back on the map when Diddy has two banana's:
Most likely he will have one in his hand and one on the ground at about sweep distance (Just outside grab range from the ledge). and shoot peanuts or throw the banana's up forcing you to get on the map from the ground or jump and get hit by a banana. The place he puts the banana is obviously somewhere he doesn't want you to be....they will most likely try to cover the ground options with Banana's and cover the air with his aerials because they want the KO. Diddy's biggest issue is KO, and us recovering to the stage is one of his easiest ways to force a KO.

Its really difficult to explain how to get back on because every player is different and understanding their level of play and their mind games is usually decided when Im playing them. but I will take a wild stab and give you some of my thoughts.

If Diddy is throwing the Banana's up, (Both of them) then he is looking for the ground option meaning a smash attack. Jumping up into the banana doesn't seem safe either, but taking a 2% banana hit compared to a possible KO move then take the banana hit. Ledge hop to the banana try to Z grab it and retreat to the ledge again or see if you can get on the stage somehow. (This is why you need Platforms).
Most diddys will just leave one on the ground one in hand and shoot peanuts. if they do this time your ledge hop to a platform in between peanut shots. if he has a banana in hand it means he cant do an aerial until he gets rid of the banana.

Just understand if he has a banana in hand he has to throw it before doing an attack. peanuts don't do **** except piss you off, and the Banana's look scary but they can't kill you in the air, but Diddy can.

Sorry if it seems stupid but its hard to explain recovering on the map, because so many players edge guard differently. Don't be afraid to plank the Diddy a bit and frustrate him into messing up his traps. There is a difference between Planking and trying to recover. Don't force the recover.

@Sovereign - Im not sure how exactly even it is, but I do know Ganon can win this MU. Im not sure if I have ever beat Count Ganon Vs Diddy, but I think we have only played it a few times. and it was a long time ago. But I have never lost to him in tournament Lucario Vs. Diddy =P but we also havent played that in a while lol.

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fonzi21 said:

ALSO VERY IMPORTANT

Do not try to grab diddy kong after he does a falling Fair YOU CAN"T GRAB HIM.

As seen in this video at 1:18
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylX5FvOyVQo

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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:

MATCH UP VIDEOS:

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||| FALCO |||
90:10
Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 09/03. Open for new discussion.

OVERALL: Falco's almost unapproachable with laser camping, chain grab, phantom quick runs and his absurdly high jumps. This match will go like Camp -> Time out if you don't approach, Camp -> Shield Chain Grab -> Spike if you approach, Chain Grab -> Spike if you shield his lasers for too long... It's very painful, but with patience and perfect plays, we might have a chance to take some stocks...

PRIORITIES:

THE MATCH: First: put on your mind that you won't be able to play "freely" until like 80~100% or so. Everything you do before that (except a very midgamed play) will be punished with a chain grab -> spike or any other move. We don't want to get early killed, since we can live up to almost 180% with good DI on this match.

The match will mostly start with laser camping. The best you can do about that is try to (power)shield yourself and walk or jump your way to Falco. After that, he'll most likely aim for either a grab or run away with sideB and keep on with the camp. You can't do much while on this state: risk some reversed UAir, retreating BAir or just throw pivot grabs and try to snatch his sideB.

Once the chain grab % is worn out, you now can try to approach, while still dealing with lasers, which will be very hard. Falco will try to hit you with either FSmash or USmash or, maybe, BAir and try to finish you off. This is where your DI comes in. Don't mess with it, no matter what... While focused on that, try to UAir him as much as possible. It's your best tool against him. If you can get him on the air, do what you can to get him offstage. Retreating BAir works wonders in that. Also, FTilt and Jab are very good after a successful smash block as punishers.

Once offstage, you now have to read his recovery. If he's got his second jump left, he'll either try to sideB onstage or on the edge. To prevent both, WizKick towards the edge. If he's not hit by the kick itself, cancel the wizkick, midair jump -> UAir or UpB to get back onstage. If he's going for the lame upB, just Tipman or Stomp him to his death. No secrets there.

Gerudo is almost useless in this MU, as well as Aerudo and Stomp, so try to keep you game as safe as you can and don't risk yourself over not guaranteed stuff... If you do so, you have a chance to win.

GERUDO EFFICIENCY: [3/10] Bad
Gerudo is only useful to stop his SideB onstage. After a Gerudo, if you don't predict your opponent, don't try to chain choke or either follow up him, since every follow up is risky against Falco.

Risky Gerudo Follow Ups:

EDGE GUARD AND GIMPING: [7/10] Good
Once offstage, Falco is like a sitting duck. If he recoveries at ground level, Wizkick covers almost everything up: It will hit his SideB and get him offstage again, if he's aiming for the edge, you can cancel it and then stage spike or even just hig him... Also, if he ever tries his UpB, Stomp or just Tipman him to death. No secrets.

You can, also, release him if you manage to grab him after his SideB. Don't pummel, nor throw. Just release him. He'll gimp himself to a point where only his UpB can recover. And you'll already be on the edge, hogging it away from him.

On the edge, there's little Falco can do other than just get back onstage by normal ways or sideB onstage... Either way, pivot grab works wonders.

TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Don't go aggressive on Falco. If you ever get shield grabbed, you know your doom.
-If you get chain grabbed, you can try to tech Falco's DAir Spike, altho' it requires training and perfect SDI.
-Falco's Jab is almost unpunishable, so don't even bother trying it...
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A2ZOMG said:

Falco looks awful at first, then looks manageable, and then ultimately becomes horrible again.

The chaingrab is lame but isn't what really should destroy you in this matchup. Provided you avoid getting completely gayed by that, Falco does have trouble outright killing you, so if you can get him to make some mistakes that you can punish and somehow gimp him in the process which can be feasible provided you get that hit in, then things start looking okay.

But the problem is Ganon really doesn't have a real way to punish Falco for laser camping and running away with SideB and other stuff. And then Falco can edgeguard you with lasers and B-air pretty well and that sucks.

so yeah at the very best 70/30 Falco, and it probably is worse overall.

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Supreme Dirt said:

This is awful. I'm personally of the opinion this is at least 90:10, at the absolute best.

He's faster, lasers will gimp the hell out of you, we have to predict the Phantasm if we want to hit him, the CG, pretty decent aerials except FAir.

Stay the hell away from the edge of the stage unless he's also there. One DThrow to a spike is something you do not want happening. Powershield the lasers, and try and get him in the air. In the air, he can't grab you. In fact, you may want to let him hit you with a few lasers, to prevent the CG. I think he has it till about 60-70 on us, iirc, so probably not the best idea.

Ban Japes at all costs. If for some reason Japes isn't legal at the tournament, ditch FD. Probably somewhere better to ban, but FD sticks out immediately.

If he's offstage and you're going to gimp him, remember that Phantasm spikes. Might not be the best spike in the game, but you don't want to get hit by it.

He has a very bad recovery. So do you. Non-fastfalled DAirs could help in this matchup, but I'm pretty sure you'll want a smash stick.

iirc, all we hit him with out of Gerudo is DTilt. We also can't chainchoke him. However, if you gerudo near the edge, I'm pretty sure you can get off another choke, so long as he is closer to the edge i.e. can't roll out.

His USmash is slow and telegraphed. Shieldgrab the *******.If he's running, he's either going for USmash or a grab, and very rarely a DA. You should probably jump away to avoid getting grabbed, but at late percents try to powershield, and if he throws you act accordingly.

We are outgamed so hard here.

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Bahamut777 said:

Dirt and A2 said pretty much, but I'm going to poke out how we win against Falco.
We can only start playing after 130%. Before that it's a no-no-pew-pew in our faces. Let he do as he pleases 'cept for the spike. YOU CAN'T GET SPIKED. NO MATTER WHAT! Well... after you're on 130% more so, he'll have to kill you. THAT'S Falco's biggest problem in this MU. And THAT'S when we can play.

Thing is... all of his smashes are very laggy, predictable and, with proper DI, don't kill at all. His only aerial killing move is his BAir, which will be, probably, stalled or won't be Sweetspoted to score. WAIT for him do attack your risen shield. He'll have few options other than that at high %s. After he does so, DTilt him... it's the only safe way to rack up damage. You have to remain shielded all the time. If your shield is worn out, you'll have to edge plank, cautiously, until it's fresh again.

One you can get at killing %s, try to get him with an FTilt. It'll be hard, since it's not your fastest and shield saffest attack, but it's a very reliable killing move against falco. One fresh FTilt after 100% near the edge it's pretty much good bye to Falco and his crappy recovery.

It's very risky to play this MU and also requires Buddah's patience. You'll be at constant risk and you con't be able to go all aerial like we like too.

Unfortunately, 80:20~90:10.

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seaDORF said:

Luckily there aren't many falcos in my state as i hate falco with a passion.

I don't have heaps of match-up experience but i'll throw in my 2 cents for what it's worth.

DO

- U-air gimps his recovery hard. If he's above the stage, prepare to u-air near the ledge. He has no choice but to Up-B if he's below the ledge-grab point so time the U-air accordingly or edge-hog if he doesn't look like making it back. Gimping him is pretty important in this match-up.

- Take advantage of his poor killing power and punish him severely if he misses any of his smash attacks. Has abit of hitlag after his f-smash and d-smash.

- Play patient (very important) and practice good spacing when you're on 0%. The cg is inevitable and will result in an early stock if you're caught out near the edge. When you're on 0%, he will more then likely just laser you a couple of times in an attempt to bait you to do something stupid in order for him to find a cg opening so play patient, rely on your best friend in this match-up (shield) and slowly zone him.

- Falco has a decent aerial game so it'd be best to fight on the ground with the use of your tilts.

DON'T

- Unneccessarily go off-stage. You will most-likely lose a stock. Watch out particularly for lasers, B-air off ledge and D-air spike.

- Lose your cool. Playing this match-up aggressively is not the right way to go about it, falco has so many get out of jail options if you try to rush him.

Also, i don't think there are any flame-choke follow up options on falco. Someone correct me if i'm wrong here.

I'll add to this later. Match-up is 80 - 20 in falco's favour.

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Vermanubis said:

Falco is probably my most hated MU next to D3. There are so many things bad in this match-up, and next to zero good. Everyone seems to think that the chainspike is the worst part about this MU when that's the farthest thing from the truth. While that is a big factor, Falco doesn't even need to chainspike to make this match-up a nightmare from the unholy depths of heaven.

The primary issue being his, yes, you guessed it, lasers. At first glance, these little *******s are just a nuisance used for chip-away damage. But to the contrary, that is probably the least of its uses in this MU. You see, Falco uses his lasers primarily to force approaches and for follow-ups. Here, the issue is follow-ups.

Against a laser > follow-up like DACUS, jab or grab, Ganon has literally no framesafe options at all. So if you're being lasered, you can do absolutely nothing about it but PS approach. But even on PS, you still don't have a frame advantage on Falco is he SHDLs. Thanks to Falco's insane jumping height, it's also impossible to do FH aerial approaches.

But, there are a few exploits in this MU that can at least somewhat help. Here's what I suggest as an overall strategy:

-Do not try to shield lasers at low percents. His lasers HELP you at low percents. They protect you from CG spikes. My advice is to let yourself get lasered (although don't be TOO obvious about it) to around 35%. This way, unless you're directly next to the ledge, you can DI out of the grab.

-We don't really have a choice but to approach in this MU, so here are some things to expect when you do approach. Expect everything Falco does to be done out of a SHDL. Only try to attack when you are extremely close. Don't be fooled into thinking he's open after a SHDL, since it autocancels. Wait for him to do the follow up move, then strike.

-SideB is another big issue in this MU, since it's so fast, that Ganon theoretically cannot punish it. But it is predictable with most Falcos. If they're doing retreating SHDLs, always expect a SideB. The best punishers for this are Nair and Dair to stop the SideB as it goes under/towards you.

Offstage

Offstage Falco is pretty garbage. But he can still recover well with his SideB. IF you don't read it. With linear recoveries like Falco's, it's very easy to put them in a tough spot with mindgames. They have two options: sweetspot the ledge, or go onstage. If you knock them very far offstage, run towards the edge as if you're going to edgeguard them. Jump back, then punish. If they're close, Falcos almost ALWAYS buffer a sideB to get back on, so if you knock a Falco offstage, but only by a little, don't bother going offstage, they'll always sideB immediately.

Another alternative is NAir. NAir shuts down SideB. And if Falco is below you and using upB to recover, it's sometimes best to use NAir instead of tipman to gimp, since Ganon's *** literally gimps him very safely.

Random tips

-DO NOT roll inwards after being daird. Falcos learn to punish inward rolls with Fsmash.
-DO NOT try to punish jabs. Just DI out of them.
-DO NOT try to DAir as an OoS punisher unless the opportunity is obvious.
-DO NOT try to iDA for an outward roll or rechoke. Falco rolls too far.

Counterpicks

Brinstar. Not much needed to explain why. Puts tons of pressure on his recoveries, hinders SHDL autocancels, etc.

BF. Not ideal, but it relieves some of the laser pressure, and Falco isn't too monstrous in the presence of platforms. In fact, they hurt him more than they help.

Lylat. Hurts his recovery due to the inability to safely sweetspot the ledge and the tilting platform makes SHDLing difficult. You won't be using DAir much in this MU anyway.

I honestly give it a 95:5. We have options, but they're so circumstantial and require such perfect reads and reactions that it's insane to consider them enough to stand up to the horrendous things he can do to us. Ganon's third worst MU, in my opinion.

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Xzax Kasrani said:

MU wise:
Take falco to Brinstar, and Lylat and BF. EDIT: (LISTEN TO VERMANUBIS!!!!)

Watch out for lazers and the CG....work on SDI'ing towards the stage after being spiked(mash both control/c stick towards the stage)...and if your lucky try and MASH out as quickly as possible when you get grabbed.

On Brinstar: Platform camp until chaingrab no longer works and use the stage against falco(get him off at all costs and bait him into lava)

On Lylat: Same as Brinstar, camp until you can't be cg'd and get him off the stage at all costs since he can't recover at all on Lylat.

On BF: Platform camp the whole time and watch out for nair and when on the 2 bottom platforms ALWAYS stay in the middle of the platform since if u shield and get hit close to the edge of the platform you can get lazer locked or forced to CG

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ItemfinderDeluxe said:

I think deep down we all hate Falco just a bit. Yeah, this match-up sucks - just a few things though I think might help against Falco.

1. Falco's double-hop laser spam can be slightly avoided by crouching under the first laser. However, it can hit Ganondorf with both lasers even when he's crouching, if done on the right timing. Do note that if they go for double low lasers you should be able to short hop air-dodge the first laser and block the second, or possibly double jump over both of them. Can someone confirm the dodge method though?

2. Dash attack has enough lag to hit even out of spot dodges, but they have to cancel the extra attack length if they want to gatling combo you. If you powershield the Dash attack though you can get enough room to roll away, or if you are (extremely lucky) you MIGHT get a grab... not pivoted, just a straight grab.

3. Phantasm on stage is used for spacing and quick get aways. If you can avoid getting hit by it when they try to escape you might be able to punish with Gerudo or Wizkick. It depends on your space relevant to Falco's though, and only really works against an aerial Phantasm.

Unlike Bahamut I honestly think 105-110% is where Ganondorf can start moving against Falco. All of Falco's worrisome tools for Ganon (setting up laser locks, gatling combo, chaingrab-spike) don't work due to knockback or DI and Falco needs to close in for the KO. Other then that everything else I can think of seems to have been said already.

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Bahamut777 said:

Also, I forgot to say...

Falco players are very impatient (around here, that's it). If you can consistently PS the SHDLs, they will try a close approach or a fake out SHDL approach, trying to catch you off guard. I recommend PS walking (not running). It gives a very heavy pressure on Falco to have his best damage dealing option rendered useless.

However, if you don't stay turned, you may end up being grabbed. We all know what happens then.

Also, if timed right, both Gerudo AND Pivot Grab overprioritizes SideB. It's very hard to do, but it's something to keep in mind in some cases...

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Clai said:

Protip: If you happen to grab Falco on the edge without his second jump (i.e. if he's recovering with Side-B), simply air-release him. Don't throw him, don't pummel him, just let him go. It's a hilarious auto-gimp because once Falco is released, he goes too low for Side-B to bring him to the ledge and Falco's up-B is lol for recovery. It's likely very rare for you to pull this off, but if you do, it's pretty awesome.

I'll add more stuff later, but, you know, this matchup sucks.

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Z1GMA said:

05 : 95

I don't have to explain why this Match-up Ratio looks like it does.

Counter Pick:
Tilting stages.

Like Verm stated, it can sometimes mess up his SHDL's,
and some of the tilting stages also puts pressure on his recovery.

It can mess up our Auto-canceling too, but who cares?
Falco's lasers will mess up our Auto-canceling anyway.

¤-¤-¤

Though, my MAIN Reason for choosing tilting stages is:
<!> Garantueed follow-ups after Gerudo <!>

Dtilt is garantueed down-slope, and Jab is garantueed up-slope.
\m/ \m/

(Jab isn't garantueed if the up-slope is too intense, though.)

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||| ICE CLIMBERS |||
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||| MARTH |||
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