[#01] Meta Knight MU Discussion Thread 2010

Discuss...

Bait. Hard. Throw out random Usmashes, sh Uairs and shff bair's, learn how to isjr consistently, stutterstep, etc. When I'm playing this MU I just try as hard as I can to bait the MK into a dashgrab, then go for my favorite string.

Stomp -> read the airdodge/nair/dair and get a gerudo -> Dtilt -> read the fair/dair/airdodge and get that second gerudo -> Dtilt -> follow into the air, bait the rising dair, and punish with an Uair -> and try to land the fsmash when it recovers with a stupid option since he just took ~75% and murder the *****.

I'm dead serious about this, so many MKs do this it's ridiculous. However afterwords, this string is obviously not going to work again, unless the MK is a complete moron.

From here on out, just camp as hard as you can. MKs main approach is running up, throwing their shield up, and waiting for a spotdoge or a roll to punish. Spam pivotgrabbing as soon as you see the MK make that first dash towards you. Do NOT try to approach, as a Ftilt or sh Fair will **** anything you try to approach with. If you get an MK offstage, do NOT go out after it. You will lose, wait for it to come back to you and try to punish it's recovery.

Tornado will be beaten out by a nicely timed Ftilt or Fsmash. I prefer going for the up angled Fsmash. If they're on the edge while you're closeish to it, they'll try either a ledge drop into a dj fair or airdodge into a buffered Ftilt. Hold up your shield, and if you see them airdodgeing, go for the punish with a jab or the ftilt if you think you have enough time. If they attack your shield with the fair, wait for it to finish and grab if they're close enough, or just roll away if they aren't.

Do your best to avoid the grab at all costs. If the MK plays smart, a grab is pretty much a stock. If you're above the MK, be extremely careful about when you airdoge, or you'll eat a nice shuttle loop. There really isn't a safe way to recover against a MK. I try to recover low and hope that they just go for an edgehog and mistime it.

If you're above a mk, get back to the ground as soon as possible. Don't try to **** around and be fancy trying to stomp him midair, because, again, a smart MK will just throw a tornado underneath you and send you right back up into the air.

That's all I got for now. I'll try and get some vids from the tourney I'm going to this weekend. Also, this is all just stuff that I've observed recently. If you have anything you disagree with or want to add, go right ahead. That IS what this thread is for after all.

I'm fortunate enough to live within an hours drive of the best mk player in my country. He's nowhere near the skill level of some of the mk's in america like m2k, tyrant and dojo but he's still a very good player nonetheless. I will consult with him and get his advice on the matchup soon but for now, i will put in my 2 cents. My paragraphs won't be cohesive cos i'm just jotting down random things i know about the match-up for now but i'll edit it later and fix it up.

I mostly concur with breezy's post and stress to you all not to fwuck around in the air. MK's too good and outprioritizes all of our aerials. Stay grounded and avoid staying motionless for too long. In this match-up, i tend to concentrate on spacing and mindgames moreso than approaching or retaliating out of shield. I thunderstorm mindgame when the mk is spacing/f-air or d-air camping. MK's slow speed in the air helps make it easier to shield grab their F-air/D-airs.

All of our tilts aren't really frame-safe and an approaching mk will eat us for breakfast. You want to be constantly moving around the stage to keep the mk guessing. Occassional aerials are fine if you see that the mk is playing really aggressively (which most do in this match-up). But yeh, watch out particularly for the buffered U-airs at lower percents as you'll just get *****. Only solution there is to stay grounded and if they manage to get a F-throw/U-throw on you or they somehow juggle you in the air, do your best to DI and airdodge asap back to the ground. As breezy also mentioned, F-smash and F-tilt can beat nado if timed right. Responding with a F-smash to a MK's glide attack is also a decent option because even if they clash, you'll win through the damage percent trade.

Ganondorf's advantages against Meta-Knight
- Heavier and can live longer
- Can KO mk at relatively early %'s due to our attacking strength.
- Mk's slow air speed makes it easier to anticipate his aerials and makes it easier to shieldgrab.

Ganondorf's disadvantages against Meta-Knight
- Easily gimped
- Very easy to combo ganondorf
- Attack priority
- Recovery
- Gets completely outplayed in the air
- List could go on forever...

A few important pointers.

1. You can't afford to let him grab you. A good mk will tear you to pieces.
2. Don't chase mk off-stage.
3. Try to stay centre stage. Fighting near the ledge will most likely end in a gimp.
4. Flame choke is arguably your best attacking option. You need to capitalize on every successful flame choke and accumulate damage. You can only really destroy mk while he's trying to recover off the ground. Make sure to take every opportunity and punish anything stupid that he does.
5. DI away if he d-throws you. You don't want to DI towards him as that will lead to him F-airing you or chaining you.

Ban Level: Rainbow Cruise
Counterpick: A neutral like smashville or FD. I personally go with Pirate Ship because less chance of getting gimped and stage bull$hit may play in your favour. Worth the risk.

Summary - 05:95 in mk's favour.

Reasoning - I don't think mk is unbeatable. The fact that he is a lightweight and that 1 of our attacks is equivalent to 2-3 of his attacks percentage wise gives us a very small chance. The ratio shouldn't be anything better than that either because unless i'm misinformed, i haven't heard of a ganondorf player beating a high-level mk player, both at the top of their metagames which is how the ratios are based.

I'll add my opinion here as well...

Can't stress this enough... DON'T FRICKIN' JUMP AROUND LIKE AN IDIOT!!!
You'll be juggled, gimped and die. If you die first, you lose, 'coz MK is gonna plank your azz 'till the last minute without exceding edgegrabs. No doubt against it.

DON'T GET GRABBED! If you get grabbed, you get juggled, gimped and you know what happens.

DON'T TRY TO PUNISH LAG! MK doesn't has any. You'll be punished twice as hard as you could punish. Also, don't mess with MK's shield. You'll be Shuttle Looped to your death.

DON'T GO OFFSTAGE! No matter what! We all know what happens if you do so.

DON'T MESS ON THE EDGE! Get back on stage as soon as you can! If you try to mess around there, you'll take a slight hit, followed by gimp and edgehog.

DON'T CLASH! MK has that ****ed transcendent priority. There is not a thing you can do about it. It's better holding up your shield/dodge/roll than trying to clash with something you know that will hit, no matter what you do to prevent it.

DON'T APPROACH! You'll get shield grabbed, gimped and blah blah blah.
----------
Ok... now that we got our limits, let's work on.

Most MKs are aggressive players that trust, almost blindly, their character and play in a pattern easily readable and hard to punish. Whatever that pattern is, Ganon don't have much options to deal with it. He can either try to Jab/FTilt space himself and still crap in his pants if he gets shielded or he can trust his shield and try to shield grab or pivot grab while moving. Getting a grab in this MU is good, because you can rank up damage and, at the same time, get the reaction off your opponent. I.E. after a DThrow most MKs tend to FAir you. Hold your shield and then you can almost always get another grab out of it.

MKs like to approach in three ways: FAir, Dash Attack or running grab. Against the first one, shield grab is safe but, if delayed too much, you get DTilted/DSmashed/Shuttle Looped... and lose a big chance. Against Dash Attack, you can Gerudo and outtake it, but it requires good foreseeing skills. Running grab can be dealt with by dodging and Jabing/FTilting, but the last one is almost a gamble and should be used only in last case.

Once you gave MK some %, keep yourself safe untill MK do something stupid (not like he's going to, tho'). You HAVE to get the first kill and avoid being KOed by 8 minutes. For this, don't be offensive. NEVER. Not for a single instant. Don't try to combo, don't try to tech chase, don't try to edge guard... the most you can do is a Gerudo -> FTilt/Jab/DTilt. And you should be happy for landing those. Try to stay in the lead. Ganon's heavyweight can help you survive against DSmash and Shuttle Loop, but can't help much against gimp.

If MK is trying to camp you with DAir/FAir, you have the single option of outraging him by a very small margin and hit him with either FAir or reversed UAir, both timed strictly right. I prefer not to take the risk. You can also outrage him with FTilt and, vertically, USmash. I recommend trying this ONLY at KO %s, like 130% or more.

That's pretty much everything you can resume of the match:
-Don't rush to your death.
-Take the lead and keep it.
-DON'T DO THE THINGS ON THE START OF THIS POST!!!
If you can keep your cool and don't make any mistakes, you can win this match by playing safely and mindgaming yourself to victory.

About c.picking... well... it's MK. He does grat in any stage he wants... =\
Just ban R.Cruise. We don't want a less than 2 minutes match.

My current rating: 85:15 MK

Just a few things.

1. If a MK gets in his poke range, he'll usually do one of 3 things:

A) Dash Grab - if so, then follow the above statements and hope they work.
B) D-Tilt your shield until it has a hole and then D-Smash under your shield. You should be able to avoid this with a roll, or if they're right on the edge of your shield an air-doged back hop might do the trick. I say air dodged because as soon as you jump they'll most likely go for Shuttle Loop.
C) Tornado to wear your shield. Just angle your shield up and weather it. If you get lucky with the spacing you might be able to jab after the Tornado finishes, but if they stay on teh ground you're better off rolling away when it's near its end to get some room.

Recommended Stages: I'd say good stage to go are Battlefield, Smashville, Delfino Plaza. All three have room for Ganon to move in platforms, but all have low vertical blast zones. Gerudo to IDA should kill MK on these stages at around 90% (someone verify this please?), which for Ganon can be done in 4 Gerudo's with follow-ups .

Stay-Away Stages: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, Jungle Japes. FD is too large on the blast zones to KO MK effectively, and the open space gives MK too much room to move around you and recover. Yohi's is a nightmare for Ganon against MK, seeing as he can chae you off the edge and F-Air you the whole way and recover in the one go. Jungle Japes is too horizontal, and the water Gerudo is too much of a risk for what it's worth.

BAN: Frigate Orpheon. Despite the common opinion I think Frigate is the ultimate Ban for Ganon against MK. Both stages give MK too much room to move and too few options for Ganon's recovery, but Frigate gives Ganon nothing to work with. No awesome ledges, no spacing options, no room. At least you can run for a bit on Rainbow Cruise...

OVERALL RATING: 85:15 MK. It's a pain and it's common, but not Ganon's worst matchup. MK can't pressure you into approaching, and since all MK's approach anyway that's one less thing to worry about. Still, it'll take some serious skills to win out this matchup.

Looks like you guys got it covered for the most part. :D But I might as well throw my opinion in.

Summary

MK is personally the match-up that makes me the most nervous. MK, to be perfectly honest, has ONE thing that scares me. ONE. And that's shuttle loop. If Meta Knight has one claim to Ganon **** among his billions of others, it's uair > shuttle loop. I can't recount how many times I've been killed at 20% due to this.

Aside from shuttle loop, other cautions are common sense. Such as Bahamut and others stated, the things you want to avoid at all costs are being off-stage, ****ing around on the ledge and jumping too much, unless you're walling with nairs/bairs. The best general playstyle against MK as Ganon is to remain grounded. This is because MK has one flaw: poor horizontal aerial speed. He can't approach from the air very well, except for tornado, which is easily punishable. This means he approaches with ftilts, dash attacks and so forth. While these are excellent approaches due to his range and priority, they leave him open to easy dairs.

Suffice to say, your most invaluable moves will be dair, dtilt, gerudo and bair. Bair is excellent as a safe bait for misspaced fairs, dtilt stops his ground approaches, gerudo for obvious reasons (buffered iDA can kill fresh at around 90% from Gerudo) and dair for reasons mentioned above.

Now, don't count on these methods to always work as well as you'd like. Some MKs get a kick out of getting their camp on hard. They'll dair camp and just flourish with fairs. But this is still circumventable, it just requires a significantly larger amount of patience.

Specific Strategies

Tornado - Needs no explanation. Tornado is unfortunately not as easily punishable as Ganon as it is with other characters. MK can do one of two things while tornadoing, and your punishment options will vary depending on which. They will either try to ride the full tornado out over your shield, or they will retreat mid-tornado. For the former, it's best to not hold your shield out the whole time, rather, spotdodge right near the end of the tornado so you'll have a slight frame advantage to punish. For the latter, read the retreat (most popular option when shielded) and try to punish with wizkick if within distance.

Shuttle Loop - MK's favorite move (even more than tornado). There is only one real instance in which shuttle loop is truly threatening, and that's when you're high in the air. Usually done after uair juggles, a shuttle loop is virtually inescapable. There's nothing you can really do to counter it, but I have one very valuable piece of advice. Bad DI is a bigger enemy than shuttle loop itself. Unless you DI very well, it will likely kill you, or send you far off enough stage that MK can keep you away. While being juggled, try to airdodge as best you can, but hold the control stick to DI before you're shuttle looped, to ensure you don't DI poorly.

Recovery - The worst thing you can do against MK is recovery in a predictable fashion. The best thing to do when recovering, which will dramatically improve your chances of survival, is to wait out MK. Most MKs will try to ledge drop > nair to stage spike you, or shuttle loop/fair you. So bait them. Wait for them to drop from the ledge so you can sneak the ledge. Also, don't be afriad to uair as a deterrent while recovering. Most Ganons seem to be afraid to use offense as a defense.

Common Tricks and Follow-Ups

Ledge loop - Most MKs like to hang on the for a second and do a shuttle loop onto the stage. If they time it properly (which most do) they'll have no landing lag. So when MK's on the edge, seriously just stay the **** away lol.

Dtilt > Dash grab - Not much you can do about this, since the dtilt trips you. Just good to know about it.

Uair > Shuttle Loop - Discussed above. Best way to deal with it is to do preemptive DI. Hold the control stick away from the shuttle loop so you don't end up DIing poorly.

Drill rush ledge cancel > Nair - Not very threatening, but still a good idea to watch out for it. Don't recovery idiotically.

Reverse ledge shuttle loop - When MK drops down from the ledge and shuttle loops backwards.


Closing

Last bit of information, as Bahamut also said, the best thing you can do is get a lead; even if a small one. This means MK will get impatient and approach you. When MK approaches callously, it's dangerous as hell for him. Every MK I've ever faced and won against, I got a small lead and played conservatively from there. He becomes very easily readable when he's the one making approaches.

But in closing, the big problem with implementing all of thse strategies is timing. MK is so blisteringly fast and has such range/priority, that theorizing strategies isn't the problem, so much as it is successfully implementing them. I'd say it's a good 90:10.

Ban: Rainbow Cruise (obvious reasons)
Practice on/be prepared for: Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza and Brinstar
Counterpick: Smashville. While the platform isn't much, it can be a massive help situationally. It can catch MK's shuttle loops, leaving him briefly vulnerable to aerials. If you grab him on it, you can grab release him into an fsmash and it can save your recoveries.

seaDORF said:

Summary - 05:95 in mk's favour.

Reasoning - I don't think mk is unbeatable.

Click to expand...

Guys, we need to work on what our numbers mean. Some people consider 35:65 a matchup you should never win, and 25:75 laughable. 5:95 is definitely unbeatable. 15:85 probably is too.

For the record, MK isn't unbeatable since no MKs seem to do the matchup correctly. I'm confident I could beat any Ganon in the world with my MK, since I would actually play it like MK is supposed to and I wouldn't fall for Ganon's tricks (and I would jump into your Dark Dive and Dair you out of it). But for tournament purposes, I think it is around 25:75.

Here in Brazil we adopted our old Melee rating sistem because of discussions like these:

0 = even matchup. almost no c.pick influence on both sides. (I.E. current Bowser MU)
+1/-1 = almost even matchup. little c.pick influence on both sides. (I.E. current Lucas MU)
+2/-2 = little advantage matchup. low c.picking influence over one character. (I.E. current DK MU)
+3/-3 = medium advantage. medium c.picking influence over one character. (I.E. current Falco MU)
+4/-4 = great advantage. heavy c.pick dependent victory. (I.E. current Diddy MU)
+5/-5 = almost impossible matchup, no matter the c.pick. (I.E. current ICs, Sheik and Olimar MUs)

I think it's easier this way... :X

I think Bahamut's got the right idea. But if everyone opts for the US standard for MU ratios (--:--), I think they should be as follows:

50:50 - Even
55:45 - 60:40 - Slight to Moderate disadvantage
65:35 - 70:30 - Noticable disadvantage
75:25 - 80:20 - Severe disadvantage
85:15 - 90:10 - Nearly unwinnable
95:5 - 100:0 - Realistically unwinnable

And what are the numbers a ratio of? I don't know if I've ever seen people agree on what they mean.

ie 50:50 means that if the two characters were to go 100 matches, they'd each with 50.
40:60 means that if the two characters were to go 100 matches, one would win 40 and the other 60

Or is it something else?

Its just to describe how worse it its for both sides, theres nothing like percents or amount of matches being won in it.

Ganonsburg said:

And what are the numbers a ratio of? I don't know if I've ever seen people agree on what they mean.

ie 50:50 means that if the two characters were to go 100 matches, they'd each with 50.
40:60 means that if the two characters were to go 100 matches, one would win 40 and the other 60

Or is it something else?

Click to expand...

they're just theoretical degrees of matchup severity. They have no set meaning, but are generalized theorizations. Such as color-codings. "Red" doesn't have a set specification, but it's a generalized indication of severity.

Okay then, so they're not true ratios. Thanks.

So we'll stick with Verm's chart then.
Let's go back to that tiny little nasty bat.

Just because I didn't give my opinion on what the MU is, I'd say it's

Ganon 20:80 MK

It's a ridiculously hard MU, but if played smart and patiently, it's winnable. However, MK just has too many options in any given situation, and we have to work to even get two or three.

Hey Bahamut, maybe you should post Verm's chart in the OP of The Slaughterhouse as well as the individual MU thread OPs so that it's an easily accessible, universal standard. Also, that way if we decide to change it down the road, we can see that the older threads had a different standard and could easily adjust it to the new one.

Twilight Prince said:

Guys, we need to work on what our numbers mean. Some people consider 35:65 a matchup you should never win, and 25:75 laughable. 5:95 is definitely unbeatable. 15:85 probably is too.

For the record, MK isn't unbeatable since no MKs seem to do the matchup correctly. I'm confident I could beat any Ganon in the world with my MK, since I would actually play it like MK is supposed to and I wouldn't fall for Ganon's tricks (and I would jump into your Dark Dive and Dair you out of it). But for tournament purposes, I think it is around 25:75.

Click to expand...

I don't take those numbers seriously. It's just an approximation. My ratio is based on 2 skilled players playing their characters at the tops of their known metagames and imo, a top mk will beat a top ganondorf virtually every time.

I just put the 5 there because the ganon player does have a chance, no matter how insignificant it is. The match-up is not unwinnable. I always considered 0:100 unwinnable and 05:95, 10:90, & 15:85 very slim because i take the numbers literally and believe that anything greater than zero means that they have a fighting chance , but hey, everyone has their own way of doing it.

I will conform to someone's ratios proposal for the sake of this discussion though. We should have it crystal clear what each ratio means so we have some consistency.

EDIT: Btw, are we going to try and get some good mk players to comment on the match-up? I know 2 people i can get if you guys approve of it?

I play the best MKs of British Columbia quite oftenly, I play Clouderz often in tournaments and Ugg all the time. I win against Clouderz 40:60 in his favor but almost never on Ugg.

I'm completely serious about this and works a lot. Approach Meta Knight and don't let him think. I don't mean rush in with a Dash attack like a headstrong, ignorant player, I mean get in close and pressure him. I've been told by Ugg that he doesn't like when I'm close to him because he's scared of our damaging hits. When we're close and not attacking, he does stuff that he usually wouldn't even if it's just a change in spacing. I get my punishes off and reset to the pressure.

When we just sit there defensively, we let Meta Knight have his way to think and act accordingly with approaches and walls. If we get close and only attack about 15% of the time when we know it will hit. It will scare him to damage thinking he'll get 20+ damage. Make him the one to rush in with fairs and nados and punish him. Get close to about two of your Dtilt ranges and stay in that range. Meta Knight will be flustered and will try his most least risk options kind of predictably to your favor in a sense. Remember you have to make it look like you're running in like an idiot only to stop and in his face.

There will be a lot of variables in play and you have to play it according to the situation, but if it's close percents and you've both got your ground, try this out. If you keep doing it after you get the lead it'll only anger him more and make you more happy.

Brazil's biggest tournament will be taking place thes weekend and the nex one. Will try to record some matches against Player7, Chaudgobay, Wendell, R and others.

If you have any video on this MU, post it here, please.

What stage would you guys take MK to?

Personally, I'd take him to Smashville, since it's small enough to KO him in earlier percentages. Also, that platform can sometimes "catch" his Shuttle Loop when landing by accident, if he aint paying attention. (Which really, all Brawlers should do, lol.)

I'd agree with SV. It doesn't give him a lot of aerial space to work with thanks to no surplus of platforms and if you somehow grab him on the platform, you can fsmash him from a grab release.

I'd agree with SV. It doesn't give him a lot of aerial space to work with thanks to no surplus of platforms and if you somehow grab him on the platform, you can fsmash him from a grab release.

I also agree with Smashville.

"Any counterpick you take me to I'm doing better on it."

He is da bess, after all.

Oh lol, the double posts strike back.

I use to pick FD, since you can live long in the center of it if you DI well.
I want to stay as far away from the ledges as possible when fighting MK.
(Of course, by that, I don't mean I just stand there like a moron.)

Z1GMA said:

I use to pick FD, since you can live long in the center of it if you DI well.
I want to stay as far away from the ledges as possible when fighting MK.
(Of course, by that, I don't mean I just stand there like a moron.)

Click to expand...

MK plays like a moron, so why can't Ganon? D:

'cause he dies if he does so. =\


Well. I like to pick SV or FD, since in Pirate Ship I get water gimped and in Norfair I get planked like hell.
hmm...

I would like to know your opinion about the Gerudo matter on MK. Should we go for the follow-up or for the chase?

Bahamut777 said:

'cause he dies if he does so. =\


Well. I like to pick SV or FD, since in Pirate Ship I get water gimped and in Norfair I get planked like hell.
hmm...

I would like to know your opinion about the Gerudo matter on MK. Should we go for the follow-up or for the chase?

Click to expand...

In the lower percents, chainchoking is probably the better option since MK is quite light and with the help of DI, he could get out of follow-ups quite easily.

I like how ganon's throw around 85:15s casually and act like "oh it's not our WORST matchup, we'll manage". Man, if it was the ROB boards, we'd be like "Pick up MK"

I give you all props for staying positive!

Ganon players are just all That.

Bahamut777 said:

I would like to know your opinion about the Gerudo matter on MK. Should we go for the follow-up or for the chase?

Click to expand...

(Deleted something from old post, apparently) EDIT: Depends on your ability to read your opponent, I guess.
For my part I usually do a ftilt. But most of the MKs I've played, have I had a lot of experience against, so occasionally I've been able to chainchoke.

Going to have to disagree. How could Chainchoking be the SAFE option? MK can escape or even damage you from a misread, it's more intellectual guess-work to wrack up damage than guaranteed 20+ damage.

I would read into an fsmash or dair if I didn't follow up at the start. I do agree that you should chainchoke if you have a respectable lead, have them at the edge of a stage, or if you are sure where you'll opponent will go.

I find FD being the best stage if the MK is very agressive. Gives you alot of room and easier staying away from the edges. If he is a campy MK, go for SW or someting...

Gerudo can be hard to land, but if you do, its probably best just ftilt/Dtilt him as followup.

Terodactyl Yelnats said:

Going to have to disagree. How could Chainchoking be the SAFE option? MK can escape or even damage you from a misread, it's more intellectual guess-work to wrack up damage than guaranteed 20+ damage.

I would read into an fsmash or dair if I didn't follow up at the start. I do agree that you should chainchoke if you have a respectable lead, have them at the edge of a stage, or if you are sure where you'll opponent will go.

Click to expand...

Sorry. I must have deleted something from my post. I honestly can't remember what is was.

So are we going to compile a summary of the mk match-up to put in the match up thread? How much time do we allow to discuss characters? We've been discussing mk for well over a week now.

@ Seadorf: It's a bi-weekly match up discussion. I think that on sunday we can move on to Snake.

@ Topic: I think every Gerudo follow up is risky vs MK except for jab, that's 100% guarantee over any reaction and it's very error safe. One frame of delay in your buffer can result in a shuttle loop on your face. I mean it. I'm tired of going for FTilt or DAtilt and get SL. >_<

DTilt isn't even difficult to land though. Hold down and mash attack

Tilt Stick MWAHAHAHA

Can we start with Snake?