• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Revamping of the counterpick system

stingers

Smash Obsessed
Joined
Oct 21, 2006
Messages
26,796
Location
Raleigh, NC
What purpose does the current stage selection system serve? Namely, the divide between "Neutrals" and "Counterpicks". We just decided to choose 5 or so stages and put them on a list of stages that can be played on game 1, but then open up a plethora of other stages that can be played for the rest of the set. What's the reason for this? I don't know if you've noticed, but the majority of brawl sets are decided after the first game. The first match is by far the most important, due to how powerful counterpicks are in this game. Just think about how rare comebacks on game 3 are in Brawl.

The current system we use is simply carried over from Melee. But in Melee, the counterpick system wasn't much of a problem, because of Universal techs (everyone could waveland on platforms, for instance), and the rush down style mostly favored in Melee leads to less focus on specific stage attributes then in Brawl (if you notice, characters less focused on rush down in melee such as Peach and Jiggs tend to perform stronger on their counterpicks, like Mute City (though now banned by the MBR) and Brinstar).

But in Brawl, it's different. Counterpicks are insanely powerful, to the point where you have very little hope after losing the all important game 1. Of course, this leads to characters that have advantages on the 5 ARBITRARY stages selected to be "Neutrals" (Those being Final, Smashville, Battlefield, Yoshis Island, and Lylat) having a large advantage in tournament play (see: Diddy Kong, Falco, Ice Climbers). Now, you can be **** sure you won't see any Diddy, Falco, or IC mains supporting a revamp of the counterpick system, simply because it's heavily in their favor at the moment. But why should we cater to those characters? Sure they're popular, though only because they do well, which of course is because they're aided by the rules we use.

I think we should try to move on to a fairer system, which is actually already being started by MLG, though not to the degree I'm thinking. I think we should remove the distinction between neutrals and counterpicks completely. I do not think any more changes are necessary beyond that. Regional stage lists should remain the same, stage striking should stay as is, you should only have 1 ban per set and Dave's Stupid Rule should still be enforced. But why continue to limit the stage selection in game 1? There's literally no difference between games 1 and 2 other then that the loser gets to pick the stage in game 2 instead of it being a mutual agreement through striking. So why discriminate? I'll end the topic with that. Why discriminate?
 

-Vocal-

Smash Hero
Joined
May 21, 2010
Messages
6,370
Location
Behind the music
This has already been a topic before :D

However, it didn't really reach a conclusion (just sort of died) so it wouldn't hurt to discuss some more. You can find the original thread here.
 

Raziek

Charging Limit All Day
Joined
Oct 14, 2008
Messages
9,626
Location
Halifax, Nova Scotia
NNID
Raziek
3DS FC
3866-8131-5247
I thought we've been over this enough times to figure out that using the entire stage list is REALLY not a good idea. It effectively ensures MK will almost never lose Game 1. It works more efficiently if MK is not involved, but then you get into issues of time constraints due to striking from the entire stage list, and all the Diddy/ICs/Falco mains start bawwwing that they can't win anymore except on their CP.

Basically, MK ***** this idea. If you get rid of him it's more plausible, but it still doesn't really change the fact that whoever wins Game 1 will probably win the set, it just means Game 1 is going to be played on a stage that favors a different subset of characters. (Namely, versatile ones) I don't think that is a BAD thing, but it clearly makes MK too dominant, so either he goes, or this idea doesn't work.
 

AlphaZealot

Former Smashboards Owner
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 6, 2003
Messages
12,731
Location
Bellevue, Washington
For the record I'm a Diddy main and for MLG we put in place a 9-stage starter list and a decently wide counterpick list (Norfair/Green Greens/Picto). Actually thinking of maybe adding one or two more stages (PTAD). We'll see.

Not everyone lets their personal bias/success get in the way of logic/fairness. However, most people do. I'm sure I'm also not 100% guilt free (some say the 35 edge grab limit benefits Diddy a lot).
 

Supreme Dirt

King of the Railway
Joined
Sep 28, 2009
Messages
7,336
As a Ganon main, I can support this somewhat. It's not perfect, but it's certainly better than the current system we have going. Seeing as IC-Dorf, Falco-Dorf, and Diddy-Dorf are 100-0, 95-5, and 90-10 respectively, any ruleset which doesn't make them more difficult is a boon. It's always irritated me that the starter list favours Ganon's worst matchups.

MK seems like a bit of a problem, but really, it's Meta Knight. No matter what we do to the stage list, he will have an advantage by virtue of being Meta Knight.
 

-LzR-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
7,649
Location
Finland
You have a point there... Why would the first match have to be played on a "neutral" where many top tiers ****? I support this.
 
Top Bottom