Proper Punishing Thread--Week 1: Metaknight

When it comes to punishing, wolf is amazing. Pressuring his shield is almost never safe and so this is why i thought it would be a good idea to come up with a directory of what wolf can punish and what are his best options when it comes to punishing. The goal for making this is so that less people get away with things that they shouldn't, and that wolf players (including myself, i'm not claiming to be barracuda drifter or anything ya know?) can optimize their punishes, as well as not getting punished for trying to punish. All the punishes listed under each character's attack are guarenteed when executed properly in accordance to the games frame data. In the end once this is completely finished, hopefully all variables will be accounted for (shield stun, shield push, etc.). Also, i want to make this as new user friendly as possible, so if it feels like "why are you explaining this?" its caz some people might not have that previous knowledge which you do. Having that been said, if there is anything that does not make sense in this thread or any term unknown please message me or post here and i will make corrections so that this thread may be clearer.

--WARNING: I want to interject with saying that this guide will NOT teaching yøu how to play match ups or should be taken as anything more than it is. It teaches what it is you can punish with guarenteed and thats pretty much it.

Alright, I'll first give a short list of wolf's options for punishing, or at least some of the more common/useful ones, along with listing the frame which the first hitbox comes out on, damage when fresh, and some short descriptor. though i know the more seasoned wolf main's will/should be familiar with these, i wanted to make this as new user friendly as possible. Just skip forward to the character specific punish lists if you think you're ok, though i would recommend reviewing these all the same. I did part of the first one as but now i want you guys to help me too. If there is something you believe is incorrect, then research it a bit and then provide your evidence. Always be skeptical of what you read and do not be quick to accept it as truth.

Don't post punishes on characters that we have not covered previously or are currently covering.

NOTE: my main priority is to do this for top tier characters, at least at first, because those are the characters that will be coming up most commonly in tournaments. eventually i will get around to most character if not all, though honestly no one really cares about the long list of moves you can use to punish link's lagful dair with.

Out of Shield (abbreviated oos later on, i.e. usmash oos) options: these are options which you can perform directly from being in your shield.

grab
Hitbox: frame 6
Damage: depends on the throw/pummels
Description: this is also known as a shield grab. grabs **** in this game.

jump shine
Hitbox: frame 8
Damage: 3
Description: you get invincibility on frames 1-9 and get frame advantage after (check frame data for exact frame advantage)

usmash
Hitbox: frame 13
Damage: 18 (6,12)
Description: gives you the most damage and has huge range.

fair
Hitbox: frame 7
Damage: 11
Description: this is what punishes most everything because of

nair
Hitbox: frame 4
Damage: 8 (strong hit), 1 each (weak hits)
Description: its kinda like mk's just not as strong, but the weak hits combo into other stuff.

uair
Hitbox: frame 7
Damage: 12
Description: this is kinda hard to do without usmashing oos on accident. i think if you use default controls like me the best way to do it is pressing y+a while holding up half way between neutral and max.

bair
Hitbox: frame 6
Damage: 13
Description: great for punishing people behind you. i dont think you can buffer a turnout or somethin, haha.

Drop Shield (abbreviated ds from now on, i.e. ds fsmash) Options: these are options which can be performed after dropping your shield. dropping your shield adds an additional 7 frames between your shield stun and your move happening.i will account for the additional 7 frames in the listings below.

fsmash
Hitbox: frame 17
Damage: 15 (5,10)
Description: this thing has huge range

dsmash
Hitbox: frame 15 front, frame 20 back
Damage: 14 front, 13 back
Description: good for damage and getting people away from you. i guess it kills too.

jab
Hitbox: frame 11
Damage: 9 (3,2,4)
Description: fastest ds option and it refreshes 3 moves =)

Of course every punish does not have to be coming from the position of being in your shield. They might have missed due to a sidestep or just not being in range, you might have gotten hit and etc.

Character Specific Punish Lists:

Metaknight - hyperlink here once i figure out how link it to the mk post.
Snake - not done
Diddy Kong - not done
Falco - "Hey Einstein! I'm on your side!" (sorry falco =/) - not done
Ice Climbers - not done
Marth - not done
Wario - not done
King Dedede - not done

Frame data:
wolf: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=194120
metaknight: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614
snake: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258332
falco: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187546

Here is the unfinished MK punishment list:

frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614

Neutral A (grounded)
Wiffed: any smash, dair, etc.
Shielded: grab, ds jab
Power Shielded:
Hit: jab
Note: it lasts at least 40 frames so if you get hit you have time to sdi out and then punish. jab works regardless if they try to shield afterwards or some other follow up.

Dtilt
Wiffed: wait for their next action
Shielded: fair; shield grab
Power Shielded:
Note: fair has more range than the grab, but mk moves hit hurtbox forward a lot during this move so you can grab from quite aways.


Ftilt
1st hit
Wiffed: blaster
Shielded: you should just jump shine away, but if you really want to be agressive you should fair, long cool down
Power Shielded:
Hit: jab, jump shine, or fsmash (if they are slow or stop here as a mix up they'll get hit)

2nd hit
Wiffed: blaster
Shielded: same as 1st hit except longer cool down
Power Shielded:
Hit: same as 1st hit

3rd hit
Wiffed: fsmash, dsmash, grab, etc.
Shielded: usmash oos, ds dsmash, ds fsmash
Power Shielded:
Note: The punishes listed under hit for the 1st and 2nd hit only work if the metaknight player either does not finish the ftilt or stops in between.


Utilt
Wiffed: fsmash, dsmash, dacus, grab, etc.
Shielded: dair oos, ds dsmash, just about anything.
Power Shielded:

Dash Attack
Wiffed:
Shielded: ds dsmash, ds fsmash, usmash oos
Power Shielded:
Note: fair can beat dash attack and jab/fsmash clank with it.

Fsmash
Wiffed: blaster or fsmash (difficult to time)
Shielded: fair oos, shield grab or ds jab
Power Shielded:

Dsmash
front
Wiffed: blaster or fsmash
Power Shielded:
Shielded: ds dsmash, ds fsmash, usmash oos, fair oos

back
Wiffed: blaster or fsmash
Shielded: usmash oos, fair oos, ds jab
Power Shielded:

Usmash
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Short Hopped Aerials

Nair
Wiffed: fair
Shielded: fair
Power Shielded:
Hit:

Fair
Wiffed:
Shielded: fsmash
Power Shielded: ?
Hit:

Bair
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded: ?
Hit:

Uair
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:
Hit:

Dair
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:
Hit:

Full Jump Aerials

Nair
Wiffed:
Shielded: Fair
Power Shielded:

Fair
Wiffed:
Shielded: Fair
Power Shielded:

Bair
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Dair
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Tornado
Wiffed: (from the side) shine, blaster
(on top) bair, dair, nair, shine
Shielded: usmash
note1: if metaknight nado's correctly, you should not be able to punish sometimes though you can use dacus to chase after it sometimes.
note2: side stepping at the end of tornado is good to avoid getting hit; also makes it easier to punish at times since your shield doesnt get hit by the final hitbox which has more shield stun

Drill Rush
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Hit:

Dimensional Cape
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Shuttle Loop (grounded)
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Shuttle Loop (aerial)
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Glide Attack
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Ledge Attack(below 100%)
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

Ledge Attack(after100%)
Wiffed:
Shielded:
Power Shielded:

ishiey, scrap the match up discussion thread. This should be its replacement.

We should make a character directory stickied with links to these threads.

I still don't get how you punish the fsmash without powershield. Usmash hits on frame 13 and fsmash has -5 advantage on shield drop (-12 without the drop). That's not enough, even if MK spaces the fsmash wrong.

Edit: Tornado is in fact, always punishable. Even if he fully retreats it, you can chase him down all the way with your DACUS. If he uses an aerial Tornado so you can't DI out of it, you can still crouch below it and then at the right time shine him out. Keep in mind though that you probably can't combo MK out of a grounded Shine. I think this only works against DK, D3 and Bowser.

Very good job guys.

Did you only test this with the first possible hit of MKs dash attack? I made the experience that you are mostly hit by one of the last hitboxes, and I'm pretty sure you can't punish it with Fsmash or Dsmash then, but grab and Usmash oos work.

You forgot to mention Bair to punish the tornado from above, it works really consistently for me.

I think you should add a distinction for Powershield punishes if they apply. I'm thinking MK's Fsmash and Glide Attack here.

Also, maybe a note on the ranges? For example, you can punish MK's Fair on Shield with Usmash if it's poorly spaced.

castorpollux said:

ishiey, scrap the match up discussion thread. This should be its replacement.

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i said in the op that this should not be viewed as the "how to play mu's" thread, though i understand that you argued yesterday that punishing well is a huge part of how to play a mu correctly, which i agree with. i think the mu discussion threads should be scrapped too but for other reasons =3

Gheb_01 said:

We should make a character directory stickied with links to these threads.

I still don't get how you punish the fsmash without powershield. Usmash hits on frame 13 and fsmash has -5 advantage on shield drop (-12 without the drop). That's not enough, even if MK spaces the fsmash wrong.

Edit: Tornado is in fact, always punishable. Even if he fully retreats it, you can chase him down all the way with your DACUS. If he uses an aerial Tornado so you can't DI out of it, you can still crouch below it and then at the right time shine him out. Keep in mind though that you probably can't combo MK out of a grounded Shine. I think this only works against DK, D3 and Bowser.

Click to expand...

you dont need to shield drop. thats why i listed it as usmash oos instead of ds usmash.

i'll try to edit in all the things that you guys asked for and then hopefully at least get a couple moves done myself today. i'd appreciate if everyone could maybe research even just 1 move today. looking at its frame data and wolf's frame data (or at frame data for the most common punishments in the op) and then post here what you find. i wish i could just assign you guys hw or something so that you'd do it XD. trust me, it'll be helpful for you too. i have like everything that i have looked up fresh in my mind and i have practiced all these punishments too just to be sure that its humanly possible and now i rarely miss them. it'll be good for your game and it'll be good for the progress of this thread.

you can bair the top of the tornado from the top corner.

.AC. said:

you can bair the top of the tornado from the top corner.

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Anything beats top of Nado. Best option is to probably shine though if you're falling from the top because it can chance combo into Bair or aaa depending on where Mk and you are in relation to the ground.

JJ, basically what Choice said We'll see in time though.

Choice, it is VERY IMPORTANT to note how much time each character spends in the air during a SH and SHFF'd aerial. For example, usmash OoS works against MK's (instant) SH fair if he doesn't FF it (and is in range, not sure if it'll always hit), but he can shield/powershield it if he does. Autocancels make aerials such a pain to analyze... especially when characters can afford to delay their aerials :<

Also, make sure that Wolf's 7-frame jumpsquat animation is in the OP, that's important too ;D

7 frame jumpsquat? hmmm whats that?

It basically means that after inputting jump, it takes 7 frames to leave the ground, meaning you're airborne at frame 8. This is important because it means that bair OoS takes 7 frames to jump + 6 frames for bair to come out (if buffered properly) = 13 frames, only one frame faster than usmash OoS which involves cancelling your jumpsquat ASAP (fastest is 1 frame, but... yeah buffering is important lol) + the 13 frames for usmash's first hitbox = 14 frames at best :x

at first I read the title as if it said this week is Proper Punishing Week xD

and yeah, adding jumpframes to oos aerials is VITAL for this thread

is there a video of the jumpsquat animation or a thread about it somewhere? i dont see that in the frame data is why.

My comp is lagging right now for some reason, but check the complete frame data thread in tactical, that's where I got this info.

.AC. said:

you can bair the top of the tornado from the top corner.

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but it can clash and then youre fuxored

shine is so much better

also this thread is godly

choice_ said:

you dont need to shield drop. thats why i listed it as usmash oos instead of ds usmash.

Click to expand...

It still doesn't work out. MK fsmash has -12 frames advantage without shield drop whereas Wolf Usmash hits on frame 13.

there's more stuff to keep in mind such as shieldstun and shieldhitlag as well
Honestly, we should get the frame data right before we start jumping to conclusions
It's gonna be kinda tedious though, as each move has different amounts of shieldstun (and shieldhitlag?)

Great thread! This is gonna help a lot!

I'll probably test out some of these punishes in the next couple days.

Gheb_01 said:

It still doesn't work out. MK fsmash has -12 frames advantage without shield drop whereas Wolf Usmash hits on frame 13.

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thanks gheb. its corrected now.

Laem said:

there's more stuff to keep in mind such as shieldstun and shieldhitlag as well
Honestly, we should get the frame data right before we start jumping to conclusions
It's gonna be kinda tedious though, as each move has different amounts of shieldstun (and shieldhitlag?)

Click to expand...

Yea, one of the reasons why it took so long for this to come out was because i was first using the frame data in the wbr guide or whatever and then jj told me that its not 100% accurate but the frame data which sam came out with is (the one posted by jcav). i accounted for shieldstun and shield hitlag and every other variable that was presented in our frame data. it is tedious but its worth it.

Auspher said:

Great thread! This is gonna help a lot!

I'll probably test out some of these punishes in the next couple days.

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thanks auspher. this is the kinda stuff i like to hear.

Why not grab out of a completed ftilt? It does work on occasion...

i dont mean to list off every single punish possible, though maybe that would be a better idea huh?

i figured if you know you can do z punish, then x and y can be used to punish as well.

Yeah, there's way too much to consider for aerials :x They don't even have durations of SHFF fair (I think it takes longer for MK to land because he lifts himself up a bit to attack, idk, haven't played vs MK in a while lol), so I'm just using their standard SH and SHFF times.

I think we'd need to provide the frame advantage for perfect SH and SHFF aerials for stuff like MK's fair, as well as aerials right before landing for things like Wolf's bair (along with SH. "Perfect" meaning the maximum frame advantage the opponent can possbily have). From there, list what you can guarantee a punish with, and what factors would change that list (ex. MK delaying his fair, Wolf trying to bair the top of your shield to poke, etc).

Thoughts?

Ishieymoro said:

Yeah, there's way too much to consider for aerials :x They don't even have durations of SHFF fair (I think it takes longer for MK to land because he lifts himself up a bit to attack, idk, haven't played vs MK in a while lol), so I'm just using their standard SH and SHFF times.

I think we'd need to provide the frame advantage for perfect SH and SHFF aerials for stuff like MK's fair, as well as aerials right before landing for things like Wolf's bair (along with SH. "Perfect" meaning the maximum frame advantage the opponent can possbily have). From there, list what you can guarantee a punish with, and what factors would change that list (ex. MK delaying his fair, Wolf trying to bair the top of your shield to poke, etc).

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

We could be working on this for well over a week.

That said, making it can be quite the guide.

thegreatkazoo said:

We could be working on this for well over a week.

That said, making it can be quite the guide.

Click to expand...

if i learned one thing from the wolf boards, community projects DONT WORK

This is a really good thread, stealing it :D

castorpollux said:

if i learned one thing from the wolf boards, community projects DONT WORK

Click to expand...

Nuh uh, they totally do!... Just not with our community :<

Ishieymoro said:

Nuh uh, they totally do!... Just not with our community :<

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lol i wouldn't know. woffl boards are the onyl ones i check

Seems like a great thread. Good idea Choice!

needs sticky. or put into the already stickied guide. at least when its finished.

bump, help out a bit more guys. i got to as well. today in between sets i'll work on this.

anything wiffed gets faired.
any multi hit stiff gets shined.
idk thats what i do

wow i dont get why people havent done this for every single character yet. i guess people assume they know things for sure but you could easily miss better punishes if you didnt research it.

sky is everywheeeeeeeeere

Maybe you should bold or underline the recommended moves to punish in the OP. Like, I think Usmash is the best move to punish a shielded MK Dash attack. He often ends up with his back towards you and that's where usmash becomes REALLY effective imo. Stuff like that would greatly help.

This thread looks stagnant and since the Snake board data looks a bit incomplete I decided to analyze Falco. I only include punishes on shield since Powershields or Whiffs are obvious / easily punished,

Jab 1:
advantage is -13 (-6 with shield drop): jab, dtilt, nair; fair / bair / grab are questionable, somebody should test it

Jab 2:
advantage is -14 (-7 with shield drop) i think: exactly the same as jab 1 but i think shieldgrab should always work against jab2. You can also punish it with a PERFECTLY timed usmash.
Jab 3 doesn't have consistent frame advantages on shield but is generally quite punishable

Dash Attack:
advantage is -29 (-22 with shield drop): pretty much everything can punish this.

Dtilt
advantage is -16 (-9 with shield drop): jab, dtilt, ftilt, nair, fair usmash and dsmash all work

Ftilt
advantage is -17 (-10 with shield drop): same as dtilt framewise. It covers a lot more range however so I'm not sure if dtilt will reach far enough to punish it (you have much better options anyway) even though you can dtilt Falco back after he dtilts your shield. Usmash I'm not sure about if Falco spaces his ftilt perfectly

Utilt
advantage is -19 (-12 with shield drop): Can be punished by everything you can punish dtilt with plus fsmash

Dsmash
advantage is -35 (-28 on shield): Very punishable, any smash as well as nair, fair, dtilt, fttilt and jab can do it. Even dair is fast enough

Fsmash
advantage is -22 (-15 on shield): Looks pretty punishable generally but some moves might not work because of the shield knockback. I don't think Wolf is affected by this at all - at least not notably as all smashes as well as ftilt and fair work.

Usmash
advantage is -32 (-25 on shield): Same as dsmash

Nair:
perfect advantage is -8 (-1 on shield): grab works on a poorly spaced nair

Dair:
perfect advantage is -8 (-1 on shield) basically the same as nair but it's harder for Falco to space so it's actually easier to grab.

Fair:
n/a @ Falco boards but obviously very punishable

Bair:
perfect advantage is -11 (-4 on shield): Nair and grab work but I doubt you will be able to grab him

Uair:
perfect advantage is -12 (-5 on shield): I doubt you will encounter it but punish it like bair

Shine
advantage is -34 (-27 on shield): smashes, fair, ftilt and nair work

nice ghebmaster

however i have my doubts about certain things
you appear to forget jumpframes for aerials (either 6 or 7 xd): -8 is definitely not punishable with aerials.
and -13 is definitely shieldgrabable, it just has to be spaced bad.

and two things which are missing and imo important
the frames in between jab 1 and 2 and 3
and the frames between dash attack and upsmash when used on a shield

Fixed stuff

The frames between dash attack and usmash are kind of unimportant because you can punish usmash afterwards with your own usmash, which is pretty much the best you can get. Between Dash Attack and Usmash there are 6 frames I think so you can't do anything in between (I don't even think MK can Nair OoS in between).

Against Wario:

Jab 1:
advantage is -12 (-5 on shield): jab

Jab 2:
advantage is -19 (-12 on shield): All smashes, ftilt, fair, nair

Dash Attack:
advantage is -43 (-36 on shield): EVERYTHING

Dtilt:
advantage is -26 (-19 on shield): pretty much everything

Ftilt:
advantage is -18 (-11 on shield): lots of shield knockback makes it hard to punish; Fsmash doesn't work. Ftilt and Fair are good Usmash works on a poorly spaced ftilt

Utilt:
advantage is -22 (-15 on shield): Any smash, ftilt, fair, jab will do it

Dsmash:
advantage is -66 (-59 on shield): LOL

Fsmash:
advantage is -29 (-22 on shield): Any smash, ftilt or fair

Usmash:
advantage (on last hit) is -23 (-18 on shield): most stuff will work. Even dair should work

Nair1:
perfect advantage is -7 (-0 on shield): this will hit you when Wario does a retreating nair. Framewise it can be shieldgrabbed but highly unrealistic

Nair2:
perfect advantage is -9 (-2 on shield): The 2nd hitbox can be shieldgrabbed if he spaces it poorly

Dair:
autocancel advantage is -4 (+3 on shield ): N/A
"normal" perfect advantage is -18 (-11 on shield): Fair, Usmash, dsmash and ftilt. Fsmash most likely won't work

Fair:
autocancel advantage is -14 (-7 on shield): Fair, Nair and usmash are the most realistic tools to punish it
"normal" perfect advantage is -21 (-14 on shield): Any smash, ftilt, fair, nair...

Bair:
autocancel advantage is -24 (-17 on shield): Any smash, fair, ftilt, nair
"normal" perfect advantage is -28 (-21 on shield): pretty much everything

Uair:
autocancel advantage is -24 (-17 on shield): Any smash, fair, ftilt, nair
"normal" perfect advantage is -3 (+4 on shield ): N/A

Doing work, Gheb! Great job!