Match-Up Rediscussion: Ike

Meru. · Jul 5, 2010

Prepare yourself.

So let's re-rediscuss ;D. But first, tha rules (copyright of Rickerdy-doo-da-day):

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
As the number of characters left to discuss in the Peach Weekly Match-Up Discussion thread begins to dwindle, I've have decided to start up topics for rediscussing characters who I feel may need to be covered again. This is primarily due to potential changes in the match up, new discoveries, new tactics and how they may have affected the match up. Also, for some characters, because they were discussed a long time ago, they may be out of date

Now because I can't trust some of you on this board, I'm going to copy/paste these rules on all of these rediscussion threads:

-SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS WITH EXAMPLES/EVIDENCE/THOUGHT/VIDEO. Do not say "Snake beats Peach" or "Peach owns Wolf" or something out of the blue without explaining why, you are just wasting thread space. Keep intelligent discussion.

-We are here to learn, not fight. We're all trying to become better Peach players, so please don't get into over heated discussions - learn and be reasonable.

-This thread serves two purposes. A) To determine how the matchup goes for Peach. B) To determine how to handle the matchup. So not only post why you think it goes (see guideline below), but post strategies and what you do that works.

-Feel free to add really good tactics you discover of a character already discussed. New tactics are helpful and don't think just because its already been discussed not to add anything, or we will never get better information on the matchup as the meta game progresses!

- PLEASE let me know if you want me to highlight anything from the thread discussion into that respective character's "summary" on this page. I'm not always sure whats the best advice and whats not so help point it out to me for me to highlight

- Attempting to ridicule someone to prove your point will not be tolerated. It disgusts me when people try to do this. If someone struggles with something and you don't or if someone thinks the match up is such and such because of this and you think 'well you can do this and this, why are they saying that?' for the love of god, explain to them your viewpoint. Insults such as 'well your air game must suck if you find this hard' are pathetic, childish and I will mostly likely disregard whatever else you have to say

I wish I didn't have to feel the need to do this as it clusters up the OP of each of these topics and someones going to have a cry about me putting this but sadly, I can't trust some of you. I don't care about personal feuds or the like. Keep the discussion match up related ok?

Ike

WE LIKE IKE WE LIKE IKE WE LIKE IKE

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 5, 2010

I dislike Ike :embarrass

This match up has been even for a very long time now due to Peach and Ike being polar opposites but honestly, I personally feel Peach has a clear advantage in this match up. Turnips can be used to punish EVERYTHING including Fair (I think, he might be able to shield in time if its perfectly spaced) and I think this is a major factor in the match up when Ike's attacks lag so much. Bair and Nair don't really have landing lag but Turnips can still punish them. Ike may hit like a truck but provided you play carefully, you shouldn't be getting hit very often

The thing that really skews it in Peach's favour if you ask me is edguarding. Peach normally has trouble against characters with fast long rane moves like Marth when shes on the edge. Ike however has a lot of long on any of his long range moves so Peach can wait out for him to do something and then get back onstage. So being edgeguarded isn't a massive problem for Peach

For Ike however, he's got very few options offstage. If he doesn't reverse his Aether, Peach can Toad it and he'll be sent flying. If he does reverse his Aether, he leaves his back vunerable. If he's high up and initiates Side B, Peach can jump up and follow him as hes falling. Ike then faces a dillema - does he Side B into Peach, maybe hope that it might even kill her and hope he'll fall close enough to the ledge that he'll grab it? Or - does keep on charging his Side B in the hope that he'll fall below Peach and not eat a Fair/Nair from her which will usually kill him either outright or make it impossible to recover?

Peach has a huge array of options to punish characters and Ike has got some pretty punishable qualities imo. Play the match up smart, don't run into stuff and punish everything you can. I honestly can't see how this is even

Nidtendofreak · Jul 5, 2010

Not in the mood to discuss MUs, just posting these things:

1) Ike board's opinion of the MU is 49-51 (50-50).

2) I high doubt Peach can throw the turnips fast enough to push jab, a properly spaced Nair, a properly spaced fair, or an Auto-canceled properly spaced bair. You're also assuming we don't bait a turnip throw, and using it to our advantage (like catching the turnip and using DACIT)

Nysyarc · Jul 5, 2010

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Turnips can be used to punish EVERYTHING including Fair (I think, he might be able to shield in time if its perfectly spaced) and I think this is a major factor in the match up when Ike's attacks lag so much.

This is true if you're fighting a scrub or an Ike that does not know the match-up. An Ike that does know the match-up won't be throwing out 'laggy' attacks, he will be sticking to Jabs, Nairs and auto-canceled Bairs for spacing. Turnips are slow and can easily be powershielded or intercepted, any half-decent Ike won't be jumping straight at you if you're hovering in the air holding a Turnip, they'll approach on the ground with Jabs, ready to PS.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
provided you play carefully, you shouldn't be getting hit very often

The same can be said vise-vera, that has to do entirely with the players and really doesn't play into the match-up ratio.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
The thing that really skews it in Peach's favour if you ask me is edguarding. Peach normally has trouble against characters with fast long rane moves like Marth when shes on the edge. Ike however has a lot of long on any of his long range moves so Peach can wait out for him to do something and then get back onstage. So being edgeguarded isn't a massive problem for Peach

Ike can still edge-hog an upB, and your stalling by floating off-stage can be met by stalling on-stage for Ike. The Ike player could simply wait it out and then jump off to meet you when you are forced to return. Since Ike out-ranges Peach, the Peach player's options are then limited and more often than not, an air-dodge will ensue, which the Ike player can wait out and punish with a Dair/Bair/Uair.

As for Ike's recovery, it's true Toad is a good way to hit an Ike out of Aether, but with proper DI he shouldn't be getting hit by it more than once consecutively. A good Ike player won't be using QD to recover if it is not absolutely necessary, in which case you could identify that and simply edge-hog it.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Peach has a huge array of options to punish characters and Ike has got some pretty punishable qualities imo. Play the match up smart, don't run into stuff and punish everything you can. I honestly can't see how this is even

Ike only has punishable qualities if the player chooses to use them. You can't count on Ike charging an Fsmash every time you're off-stage and call the MU 60-40 Peach. If Ike retreats Fairs, Nairs and Bairs, nothing Peach has can outrange or punish them (we won't be doing that if you have a Turnip).

Peach is difficult for Ike to handle due to the auto-canceled aerials and fast ground moves like Peach's Jab and Ftilt, but Ike has the tools to deal with those things. Ike's Jab will rack damage quickly and comes out faster than Peach's aerials. Peach has to approach Ike to get a KO, and vise-versa. This leaves room for both to bait each other and punish, but Ike's degree of punishment is severe if he uses his moves intelligently.

san. · Jul 5, 2010

Ike is very annoying to space against. He will attempt to play a keep-away aerial game that makes it difficult when floating, and will utilize his jabs when you attempt to get up close. The MU onstage definitely revolves around how peach uses her turnips. I'm not exactly sure how well shielded turnip punishes well spaced/retreating fair, nair, or bair, but it seems to work fairly well.

Ike's kill moves to look out for are jab-->uptilt and retreating bair. Jab to uptilt can be SDI'd, but it's much harder for the floaty peach, especially against a single hit frame 3 move. Uptilt can get peach ridiculously early if she gets surprised by the jab.

In general, Ike would be very conservative with jabs (mostly just finishing it or something simple like jab to uptilt), and mostly jab cancel just to bait an unsafe aerials in the air.

I disagree about peach being able to edgeguard Ike. At most, it is a slight annoyance. The only move Ike really needs to consider is a turnip throw, but even then, aether can be extended far enough on all stages not FD where it becomes much harder to get a nice throw in.

Against you offstage, it's best for Ike to pressure peach with his long aerials like fair from afar, attempting to keep peach away as long as possible before trying to interrupt with aether offstage or tilts onstage. I'm not sure how annoying peaches consider aether, but it seems like something to definitely look out for.

theeboredone · Jul 5, 2010

I'm just gonna toss in a little tid bit. Assuming Peach can edge guard Ike's aether with toad, or use a smash attack if we reverse aether, it's still a guessing game on both of our parts. Honestly, it would come down to the better reader in my opinion on who wins that battle. You can toad, but I can reverse aether, rendering your edge guarding null. Yes aether is a "one dimensional" move, but we can alter the start up time of the move which can make it dangerous for you guys.

Finally, if we do get hit by Toad, we can DI Up, which can give us an option to QD onto stage, onto edge, or re-aether.

Since we assume that both characters are being played at their peak level when it comes to MU, I would say Peach's edge guarding aether 60-40 in Ike's favor. If you mess up and get hit by aether, that's a lot of damage for a light weight character.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 5, 2010

Eh alright ignore this :S

Praxis · Jul 6, 2010

Peach has a clear advantage on this matchup. She just has to play hardcore gay. Peach edgeguards Ike hard, able to nair him or toad him out of aether, float-edgehog, and place turnips in the trajectory his side-B would cover, limiting his options very badly. If I can consistently gimp Marth once per stock, I can definitely get Ike.

More importantly, though, she has some of the best spacing options in the game for not getting hit by Ike's moveset. She just has to play extremely safe. I've three stocked a ranked-in-his-region (Oregon) Ike main in tournament living to 200%. Play gay and safe and Ike doesn't have the options to get in.

Eddie G · Jul 6, 2010

San is correct. A good Ike will play an aerial keep away game in order to bait Peach into unfavorable positions up close because that's where the bulk of our damage will inevitably come from, so the risk is necessary to take.

Considering the close quarters ground game: both characters' jabs will clash (although I'm not entirely sure if one could possibly have a frame advantage on the next jab after the clash; clarification please?). Ike has a relatively safe juggle on Peach with his jab into u-tilt or could bait an aerial (most often nair since that's our frequent "juggle-breaker") into a shieldgrab, f-tilt, or another jab setup.

Peach's turnips do come in handy because it grants her an additional method of spacing in this matchup, especially since Ike poses a rather large threat to Peach when they both try to space each other out. As was said, Ike can simply catch or intercept the turnips and/or use them to his own advantage. This is where fakeouts come into play on the Peach's part. Her item game is versatile enough to allow for multiple different uses for the turnips. Z-dropping/recatching with aerials, different toss lengths, alternating toss positions and which direction she is facing, etc all contribute to the guessing game that is approaching an Ike; so therefore Peach must make it harder for him to guess her next move with said mixups or he'll shut her attempt down nearly every time.

Edgeguarding: San made a good point in that done linearly, Peach's edgeguarding is just a minor annoyance to Ike. This is also a big guessing game of the matchup so it's up to the respective players to know every option they have in this situation. I'll contribute one to the Peaches since I share their perspective.

There is a fairly reliable way of resetting Ike's position to being offstage again. Anyone remember my Marth/Lucario edgeguarding tip (edgehog to insta-float bair)? Assuming Peach is under 100% and can instantly jump from the ledge: from an edgeguarding position, toss a turnip at the offstage Ike (preferably when he's just above parallel height with the edge) to force an airdodge and limit him to his Aether, time an edgehog just as his sword toss is about to reach the ledge's vicinity and condition him to recover onstage, jump to insta-float just as he is about to land, float just slightly past him and bair him back off during his landing lag.

The same strategy (excluding bair) can be done when Peach is over 100% as well, but due to her slow get-up animation at that point, the tactic only gives her enough time to grant an insta-float to fair or nair as she will not be able to float past Ike in time to punish with a bair.

Please keep in mind that this is just one way of edgeguarding Ike and there are undoubtedly many different scenarios based on the chosen actions of both players.

Based on my own experience with the matchup: 60-40 Peach advantage. Susceptible to change as I continue to play more Ikes of course.

I hope my contribution was of some help to the MU discussion. :3

theeboredone · Jul 6, 2010

Praxis, what's this Ike player's name? I wanna look up some of his matches if they are on youtube, since I can't think of any Ike main from Oregon.

Praxis · Jul 6, 2010

Tudios. I don't think he plays Ike anymore though, he went through a main switching phase after that tournament, and there's not a lot of current videos right now.

San, have you played a Peach player that is very proficient with turnips, like Bone or myself? Some Peaches utilize them more than others (Kos-Mos, for example, doesn't use them much at all).

I get one turnip gimp per match even against good Marth's like MikeHAZE, Havok, and Zex. Peach's turnip gimp game would surprise you. I honestly consider her, for example, Ganondorf's worst matchup, worse than Metaknight.

Also, Bonewalking give Peach a free out and turnip pull at almost all times.

Keep in mind that Peach can free uthrow a turnip off the ledge, hop back on, run off with a free pull and throw one forward, then float against the ledge. If Ike Aethers, she can release the float to grab invincibility as the sword passes through her then release and nair back onstage as Ike moves past her to reset the situation.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 6, 2010

Never heard of Tudios.

Honestly, it sounds like a lot of you Peach mains are having the same problem us Ike mains had with Marth: turns out we had only played against scrub Marths, so our opinions based on experience were basically worthless, and thus we underestimated the difficulty of the match up from 5 points to 10 points, depending on the person.

Last time we came to the conclusion of the MU being 50-50. The only thing that has changed since then on Ike's side is Bthrow -> Dash Attack being a true combo for a range of time. Unless something drastic has changed in Peach's MU, I'm really not seeing a reason to change the current MU ratio.

EDIT: I looked up Tudios in the tournament results topic: he has one 7th recorded all the way back in July 2008. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that he was a terrible Ike. This would be much more helpful if one of you top Peach mains had actually played against an Ike we recognize before claiming a sudden change in the MU. >_>

theeboredone · Jul 6, 2010

Praxis is a legit Peach no doubt, so I'm definitely taking his words to the ear. However, it would be more helpful if there were videos and such of what he was talking about. We could dissect it back at the Ike boards and see if there is anything we can do about it.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 6, 2010

Oh, I never discredited Praxis. I'm discrediting the Ike Praxis played against. Deciding Peach has an advantage over Ike based remotely on that three stocking would be like deciding Ike has an advantage because San/Kirk/Whoever three stocked some random Peach. If anything, that Ike probably altered Praxis's opinion of the MU because well, he was a scrub.

But yes, vids would help.

MKOwnage · Jul 6, 2010

Praxis said:
Peach has a clear advantage on this matchup. She just has to play hardcore gay.

Agreed, I turnip camp.

Ussi · Jul 7, 2010

I played phillyrider couple weeks ago.. So little input to add:

Dunno if Peach has some lagless turnip pull but Ike's dash attack prevents turnip pulling a lot least prevents a safe turnip pull and Peach won't always have a turnip in hand when you shield so what you gonna do when you don't have a turnip? We'll keep the pressure going...

All I got to add

Edit: thanks for the double post merge

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 7, 2010

Ike's Dash Attack is a very good method of punishing vs careless Turnip pulls and I'm unsure if Bone Walking would let Peach move away far enough to not get hit by a Dash Attack, it would depend on where Peach was when she did the Bone Walk

If Peach doesn't have a Turnip then she needs to run away and get one or get into close quarters range with Ike and start pressuring his shield with aerials and Jab. Up close, it becomes a guessing game as such. Ike can always retreat with aerials or Jab Peach up close to get her in the air. Peach can also Jab, move away or throw out some SH aerials against a grounded Ike. It depends who does what

What Peach really wants to be doing is camping and playing really gay the whole match up with Turnips, making it diffcult for him to get in and following up with Dash Attack/aerials after her Turnips when appropriate. She only wants to go in the air when Ike is grounded unless she's trying to bait aerials to punish them afterwards because Ike completely outranges her in the air

What in your opinion should Ike use to keep the pressure? Minus Jab, Ike's moves aren't paticularly quick and neither is his movement speed. Peach outspeeds him up close and this includes her Jab vs his Jab (I think, is Ike's Jab frame 2 or 3? I honestly can't remember)

Peach's game has changed a lot since Brawl first came out and indeed rather recently - we no longer approach in the air and if we do approach, its nearly always on the ground with a Turnip to cover the approach or camp with the exception of a few characters like Olimar where approaching in the air is best. We're also a lot more campy because lets face it, Peach can't kill very well
That's why I think the match up has swinged into Peach's favour, we no longer try and approach in the air which made her the perfect aerial pinata for Ike because he outranges her in the air, we take a much safer approach on the ground

Moozle · Jul 8, 2010

I would just like to add that I was fighting an Ike for a about 30 minutes last night, and I was surprised how easy KB's edgeguarding strategy actually is. It sounds very complicated, but it's not that hard to get Ike into that situation, and it's even easier to actually pull off the Bair. I was just a little surprised that I could do it almost without thinking on my first try, and I'm not even good

White-Peach · Jul 8, 2010

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
aerial pinata

Such a great description. People really think we approach by floating over and FAir or DAir at max range lol

san. · Jul 8, 2010

KBizzle said:
There is a fairly reliable way of resetting Ike's position to being offstage again. Anyone remember my Marth/Lucario edgeguarding tip (edgehog to insta-float bair)? Assuming Peach is under 100% and can instantly jump from the ledge: from an edgeguarding position, toss a turnip at the offstage Ike (preferably when he's just above parallel height with the edge) to force an airdodge and limit him to his Aether, time an edgehog just as his sword toss is about to reach the ledge's vicinity and condition him to recover onstage, jump to insta-float just as he is about to land, float just slightly past him and bair him back off during his landing lag.

The same strategy (excluding bair) can be done when Peach is over 100% as well, but due to her slow get-up animation at that point, the tactic only gives her enough time to grant an insta-float to fair or nair as she will not be able to float past Ike in time to punish with a bair.

Please keep in mind that this is just one way of edgeguarding Ike and there are undoubtedly many different scenarios based on the chosen actions of both players.

Under 100%, if you get the Ike in a position to only aether (a position most Ikes try to avoid lol), and you grab the ledge, it's actually pretty hard to get such a scenario, because the invincibility frames should not last long enough to guarantee to be safe from any sort of ledge release, especially if the Ike aethered facing away from the stage. Aether just lasts way too long, and getting hit gives you quite a few % you could do without. The best you can get from a ledge release is an invincible aerial like nair to interrupt aether.

You can easily, however, just grab the ledge, and use the extra invincibility from your regular ledge getup, even under 100%, and punish, but probably not enough to put him in such a good edgeguarding position again, but probably enough to get decent extra damage.

EdreesesPieces · Jul 9, 2010

I stress for Peach's to use float mind games like crazy here. Use the trick I posted in the "tricks" thread - what you want to do is jump at ike, then use your double jump to jump backwards into a float and float back. Ike does this a lot himself, but he doesn't have a float, so he can't do it with the same mobility. The matchup opens up a ton for Peach when she utilizes this spacing mind game. You can punish a lot if you hold a turnip while doing this. Use a ton of jab in this matchup as well.

I also stress a lot of f-smash. Ike doesn't have the ground of aerial mobility to punish this move very effectively. You can throw it out a lot and start shielnding or rolling back or jabbing right out of it.

IMO if Peach plays gay she has an advantage 6-4

Praxis · Jul 10, 2010

Tudios doesn't post on Smashboards. He's still a very active poster on AllIsBrawl. Most of the Northwest is on AiB, in fact. We don't organize WA/OR/ID tournaments here.

You guys asked what has changed; there's a lot. Peach's turnip metagame has evolved a lot, and Peaches that DIDN'T learn their playstyles from Edrees are starting to realize how badly fsmash ***** characters in the air.

I'm not basing my view of the matchup off of my experience with one Ike, but because of the changes to Peach's metagame lately and how good she tends to be at camping heavier characters.

Ussi said:
Dunno if Peach has some lagless turnip pull but Ike's dash attack prevents turnip pulling a lot least prevents a safe turnip pull and Peach won't always have a turnip in hand when you shield so what you gonna do when you don't have a turnip? We'll keep the pressure going...

Bonewalking. Only a few of us do it, but Peach can continue moving at dash speeds while pulling the turnip. She can also lagless-pull turnips on ledges.

Peach has to play really gay and bonewalk her turnip pulls a lot. The stuff Edrees said.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 18, 2010

Question:

San VS Illmatic (Turnip) 1&2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptrJxD6Ms7g

San VS Illmatic (Turnip) 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4e1OZRAhW8

Is that a good example of how a top level Peach plays with turnips? I've heard Illmatic is good, but I just want to hear from the Peach boards themselves about the level of play seen in the video. Mainly so I don't start jumping to conclusions about the MU without the other side's opinion. >_>

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 18, 2010

Edit 2: Ignore this bit

The fact is - if Ike hits Peach's shield, an OoS Turnip can and will hit Ike and there is plenty of video evidence showing that. If I can find the frame data to back it up I will but its tricky when you involves projectiles and distances. I never even mentioned F Smash or super laggy moves such as that, I talked about lots of other moves but never F Smash. I still don't understand why you all got so angry about my suggestion of being able to punish Ike upon block with an OoS Turnip with video evidence being provided (afterwards admittedly, I should have really found some examples beforehand...thats what happens when you write something upon just waking up lol). I can understand without it because I imagine you get the whole 'Shield Ike he loses 10-90 our favour' arguement a lot
I really detest having arguements so I'm going to leave it at that for now, lets get on with the discussion...

Cripes San is an extremely good Ike. Also lol at Turnip

I noticed quite a few match up errors on Illmatic's behalf which I can go into detail about if needs be. He was doing decent in game 1 but really seemed to lose momentum in the other two games

Did San choose Norfair for their second match? That was a very clever choice imo - lots of air space and not much ground for Peach to avoid Ikes aerials. Similar sort of situation on Brinstar too, that Uair kill was brutal

Turnip wise, I think Illmatic could have used a lot more Turnips in a much more punishment style of gameplay, similar to the way he was handling the Samus match up when he was playing Xyro in his other videos. He tried too hard to punish Ike and directly combat with him in the air for punishment (which doesn't work at all due to Ikes range), rather than staying on the ground and looking for an opportunity to take advantage of any vunerability Ike presented

I really felt Illmatic could have won that set if he'd played more carefully and capitalized on punishing Ike, not just with Turnips but with Jabs and Dash Attack. He made a couple of noticable match up errors but San definitly outplayed him and is a very very clever Ike, props to him. Didn't San go on to win the tournament in the end?

Edit: In other news, I managed to find some videos of Praxis vs that Tudios guy from September last year...I could post them up if you like? Pretty much all Praxis does is play really gay with Turnips lol

Nidtendofreak · Jul 18, 2010

Er...no clue what the first paragraph was about. I was talking about myself as I tend to jump to conclusions when using videos.

He might have won the tournament, but he had to leave mid-grand finals. He had beaten Razor 2-0 in winners finals, was losing in grand finals 2-1, or something like that.

Problem with "Peach can and will punish Ike if he hits her shield while she has a turnip" is that it leads to super-theory crafting land. This is the same land where Ike apparently loses to everyone not named Ganondorf according to some people, which is obvious incorrect and thus the land we're trying to avoid.

It's completely doable that she can punish a shield hit yes. I'm not disagreeing with that at all. But every time, like it is currently being hinted at? Not really. Did the videos account for shield push/stun, something even we haven't fully gone into on the Ike boards? How fast is Peach's throw time OoS? If it's not faster then Olimar's standing grab (when accounting for flight time of the projectile as well), she can't punish a perfectly spaced Nair. What about if she's by a ledge and gets knocked off it, when can she recover and toss the turnip? What if she gets something like a beamsword, which she may want to hold onto but it then removes her turnip punishing game? At a minimum, she's going to want to toss it far enough away that the Ike can't get it. What are the odds of said beamsword occurring? I should really look up this stuff before adding more to this list of stuff I suspect can be found in a guide.

If you don't mind, do you think could can point out some specific examples in the video where Illmatic's turnip game could have been used better?

Also: Do you happen to know why Illmatic pick'd Brinstar? Like, is that one of Peach's best stages or something? Because if it is, I'm going to have to say that either Illmatic didn't think things through, or Ike has a big advantage in stage selection. Brinstar is arguably one of Ike's top 5 CPs. The only stages you can argue he does "bad" on are FD, SV (mainly be me, I haven't seen another Ike agree with this), and Frigate. FD isn't "bad" as much as "we always have a better option", and some Ikes like Frigate for some crazy reason. What stages would Peach be aiming for?

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 18, 2010

Lol I see I thought you were reffering to me, sorry about that. I got a lot of stick for what I posted last time here. Slight misunderstanding there
/paranoia

If Peach is at the ledge and shielding and she gets hit then she'll get knocked off the side like everyone does. Her best bet is try and avoid being there because then she has to start the extremely tedious process of getting off the ledge
You'd have to ask the frame data experts for a travelling Turnip and whether it could punish a perfectly spaced Nair. Peach's F Throw hits on frame 8 and I think Olimars grab hits on frame 11? Like a grab, the throw doesn't sufer from shield drop lag. Peach can also glide Toss the Turnip which helps make up for the difference in distance between herself and Ike
Pulling up a Beam Sword doesn't really happen very often so I tend to forget about random items like that...if she gets one, she's probably best using it like a sword to keep Ike away but be prepared to use it like a Turnip because it travels much faster than a Turnip
I'm assuming the videos account for shield stun/push because they're happening in actual matches
I think I'm simplifying things too much and as a result missing out other things Peach can do in the match up

I personally don't think its a question of how Illmatic used his Turnips, its how he didn't really use Turnips. He tried to punish Ike by jumping in the air which not only leaves him vunerable to Ike simply moving away whilst using an aerial but Peach wastes precious time which can end up causing her to miss the chance of punishing Ike if she had used a Turnip instead. Heck, even Jab or Dash Attack would have worked in some situations. I'll have to get back to you on specific examples cause I need to head off after this

On the note of Brinstar - I don't know who picked Brinstar but if Illmatic did then I've no idea why, you'd have to ask him yourself

. I'm not a stage expert for sure so you're best off asking someone else but I'm not a massive fan of Brinstar and the videos of Praxis vs Tudios and Illmatic vs San only help confirm my dislike. There's just too much air space and not enough flat terrain for Peach to play a punishment style of gameplay on the ground vs Ike. Stages like Norfair and Brinstar force her to directly compete with Ike in the air more often which is not good for Peach because Ike outranges her in the air

Xyless · Jul 18, 2010

guys this is how you handle ike cmon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56PH6XbZagU

z00ted · Jul 18, 2010

I knew nothing about the Ike matchup I went in there cold turkey.
I really lost my momentum and Norfair was a very very very smart counterpick on San's part.
I felt like I could have won the set but I played bad bad bad on my counterpick after the first stock. I was in the air too much and I didn't recognize how well Ike does on that stage. (Too bad I won't see San for a good while). If I could have changed anything it would have been working on using turnips more / using a better counterpick such as Smashville or something.

I picked Brinstar because it's just simply my favorite stage and I like how it works for Peach vs midwieght or heavier characters.

Although I do feel as though I played the first match well.

This set mainly displays two things to me.
1. I'm new to the tournament scene and I don't REALLY know how to play this game at top level yet (although I'm capable of it).

2. I need to work on my defense/consistency.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 18, 2010

I'll post a complete thing once Rick there can come back with examples, but for now, when it comes to stages:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10633852#post10633852

Now you know for next time. :D Just be aware that the Smashville is my opinion, and it would seem most Ikes disagree with me on that stage, and that some Ikes like Frigate even though I hate it.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 18, 2010

Hellooooo

Random note: I'm not bashing you or anything Illmatic, I simply want to see you improve so hopefully this might help...take it or leave it, your choice

at any point feel free to say I'm talking rubbish

Anyway @Nid - The problem is that the times Ill used Turnips, he used them well (minus the occasional hiccup of premature throws or late throws) so I could find you plenty of examples of where is Turnips are used well. The problem is that Ill doesn't use them enough

I really hate trying to describe this because theres no grey area of the Turnip game - the Turnips were either used or not used at all. If stuff like this was constantly happening then it'd be much easier because I'd simply have to say 'oh the throw was too premature'
Its more of an issue of Ill not using them rather than using them incorrectly. There were a couple of times where he just chucked them away on Norfair but its much harder to get a Turnip hit in on a stage like Norfair because theres so many platforms. There was this where Ill rolled instead of reverse Glide Tossing which made me flap a little bit because he was holding a stitchface xD But hey, mistakes happen

I will happily admit that it was very difficult for Ill to use Turnips as effectivly as could be done on other stages because of the lack of open ground. He had more oppotunities on Brinstar though since there was more of a 'stage' rather than a bunch of platforms

Because there weren't that many Turnips, issues started to grow from that. Not only does Ill try to punish Ike via the air (which can be much slower and easily stopped due to Ikes range) but he loses a useful edgeguarding tool as well. He also loses a tool to follow up and get hits in and apply pressure to Ikes shield. Like I said, punishing Ike via the air is bad and theres lots of moments that illustrate this in the videos such as here, here and here. If Ill had a Turnip ready in these situations, he could hace blocked the aerial or thrown it to catch Ike as he was jumping...
...unfortunetly we start to enter the realms of theorycraft where Ike might do this or Peach might do that :S Heck the match could have had an entirely different outcome if Peach had run away and pulled up a Turnip instead of performing a Dair. Who knows
There's also the issue that Ill didn't gimp Ike very hard, the Turnips he threw normally missed completely (mistakes do happen). He didn't try and Toad Ike's Aether at all. I know Ike has ways around Toad but because Ill never bothered to use Toad, it made it much easier for san to recover because he knew the risk of not reversing his Aether was never there

If Ill had counterpicked a more regular stage like Smashville, Lylat Cruise or even Pokemon Stadium (although you guys have an F Throw infinite? Could you expand on that please because my mate who I play regularly who mains Ike would love to know about it. Is it literally grab to F Throw to regrab?) where there's plenty of ground for Peach to work and used more Jab and Dash Attack when Turnips weren't available, I honestly think Ill could have turned the tables on san and possibly even won the set

Stagewise, Ike wants to avoid any stages that have plenty of open ground due to Peach's ability to punish on the ground. The best stages for him in this match up imo would be stages which force you to be in the air more than you would normally be, such as Norfair

Edit: Thats why I think Peach has an overall advantage vs Ike, because on game 1 she can always get a stage that suits a punishment and campy style of play and if she loses game 2 on a couterpick, she can counterpick back a neutral(ish) stage and win the set. Players can ban stages but for neutral(ish) stages, theres a lot of choice

...tahst how the counterpicking system works right? Its late and I cba to check xD

Nidtendofreak · Jul 18, 2010

Not a full response now, but yes, Ike's Fthrow infinity is just throw against a wall, and regrab. Works to about 100%, character dependent of course and well depended to some extent. I believe it would stop working on Peach at around 85-90%, but that's just a guestimation. It can also be started with Bthrow rather easily.

z00ted · Jul 18, 2010

Rickerdy-doo-da-day said:
Hellooooo

Random note: I'm not bashing you or anything Illmatic, I simply want to see you improve so hopefully this might help...take it or leave it, your choice at any point feel free to say I'm talking rubbish

Anyway @Nid - The problem is that the times Ill used Turnips, he used them well (minus the occasional hiccup of premature throws or late throws) so I could find you plenty of examples of where is Turnips are used well. The problem is that Ill doesn't use them enough

I really hate trying to describe this because theres no grey area of the Turnip game - the Turnips were either used or not used at all. If stuff like this was constantly happening then it'd be much easier because I'd simply have to say 'oh the throw was too premature'
Its more of an issue of Ill not using them rather than using them incorrectly. There were a couple of times where he just chucked them away on Norfair but its much harder to get a Turnip hit in on a stage like Norfair because theres so many platforms. There was this where Ill rolled instead of reverse Glide Tossing which made me flap a little bit because he was holding a stitchface xD But hey, mistakes happen

I will happily admit that it was very difficult for Ill to use Turnips as effectivly as could be done on other stages because of the lack of open ground. He had more oppotunities on Brinstar though since there was more of a 'stage' rather than a bunch of platforms

Because there weren't that many Turnips, issues started to grow from that. Not only does Ill try to punish Ike via the air (which can be much slower and easily stopped due to Ikes range) but he loses a useful edgeguarding tool as well. He also loses a tool to follow up and get hits in and apply pressure to Ikes shield. Like I said, punishing Ike via the air is bad and theres lots of moments that illustrate this in the videos such as here, here and here. If Ill had a Turnip ready in these situations, he could hace blocked the aerial or thrown it to catch Ike as he was jumping...
...unfortunetly we start to enter the realms of theorycraft where Ike might do this or Peach might do that :S Heck the match could have had an entirely different outcome if Peach had run away and pulled up a Turnip instead of performing a Dair. Who knows
There's also the issue that Ill didn't gimp Ike very hard, the Turnips he threw normally missed completely (mistakes do happen). He didn't try and Toad Ike's Aether at all. I know Ike has ways around Toad but because Ill never bothered to use Toad, it made it much easier for san to recover because he knew the risk of not reversing his Aether was never there

If Ill had counterpicked a more regular stage like Smashville, Lylat Cruise or even Pokemon Stadium (although you guys have an F Throw infinite? Could you expand on that please because my mate who I play regularly who mains Ike would love to know about it. Is it literally grab to F Throw to regrab?) where there's plenty of ground for Peach to work and used more Jab and Dash Attack when Turnips weren't available, I honestly think Ill could have turned the tables on san and possibly even won the set

Stagewise, Ike wants to avoid any stages that have plenty of open ground due to Peach's ability to punish on the ground. The best stages for him in this match up imo would be stages which force you to be in the air more than you would normally be, such as Norfair

Edit: Thats why I think Peach has an overall advantage vs Ike, because on game 1 she can always get a stage that suits a punishment and campy style of play and if she loses game 2 on a couterpick, she can counterpick back a neutral(ish) stage and win the set. Players can ban stages but for neutral(ish) stages, theres a lot of choice

...tahst how the counterpicking system works right? Its late and I cba to check xD

I agree and appreciate everything you said, I used turnips correctly but not enough and I wasn't on the ground / trying to gimp him alot (San is VERY hard to gimp) also I didn't even know Toad could be used on Ike's Aether. There were alot of things I didn't know about this matchup which led to me losing (I feel like I could have won).

LOL on Norfair when I didn't hit the backthrow stitch face turnip PEOPLE WERE JUMPING IN FRONT OF THE TV LIKE THAT WHOLE SET.

I was pissed because I had to pause when I had a stitch in my hand....leading San to see it.

Nike. · Jul 19, 2010

Niddo start playing with us again!

Nidtendofreak · Jul 19, 2010

Nike 20 said:
Niddo start playing with us again!

I still has no money dude. And no job.

Praxis · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
Question:

San VS Illmatic (Turnip) 1&2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptrJxD6Ms7g

San VS Illmatic (Turnip) 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4e1OZRAhW8

Is that a good example of how a top level Peach plays with turnips? I've heard Illmatic is good, but I just want to hear from the Peach boards themselves about the level of play seen in the video. Mainly so I don't start jumping to conclusions about the MU without the other side's opinion. >_>

No.

No no no.

Illmatic is much too aggressive and mostly just dives into Ike with the turnips in that video :/

The thing is, though, that there are a lot of different peach styles, and some use turnips more than others. Kos-Mos, for example, hardly utilized turnips at all, and was the bane of Diddy Kong players. Bone, meanwhile, played almost exclusively with turnips, and crushed Dededes and Marths across SoCal, but couldn't play against Olimar at all. xD

The fact that Illmatic didn't utilize turnips enough in this matchup doesn't make him bad, but it does mean he wasn't playing properly for the Ike MU.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 20, 2010

The times he does use them aren't bad though - By that I mean he uses them to punish Ike when say Ike hits his shield

But if we're talking about campy Turnip use then yea Ill jumped in there a lot so his Turnip use was 'aggressive' in that sense but he did that anyway regardless of whether he had a Turnip or not

I prefer a combination of aggressive and defensive Turnip play vs Ike. Mixes it up nicely imo. Too much aggression means you risk getting predicted and hit/grabbed but if you simply stand at the other side of the stage and camp in that sense, Ike can just airdodge catch them

Reverse Glide Toss is pretty **** against an approaching Ike though

z00ted · Jul 20, 2010

I ****ing suck lol.

Rickerdy-doo-da-day · Jul 20, 2010

Lol don't be silly, you don't suck. You just aren't playing the match up correctly in a way that would allow you to win

Believe me, there's a massive difference. You still managed to get 5th at the tourney iirc and you've been doing extremely well at all the other tourneys you've been to

Xyless · Jul 20, 2010

Here's an example of what Rickerdy means from one of my matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ba-IIYW73Ug

Though I did win, I was far too aggressive, and gave him a lot of hits that he wouldn't have gotten had I just bonewalked a turnip away from him and glidetossed myself away from him (while throwing towards him, of course). It was actually after this tournament, with help from Praxis, that I started playing far more defensive. I've done a lot better against certain characters ever since.

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