-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Captain Falcon Match-Up General Discussion ~ Week 21 (?)
- Thread starter lordhelmet
- Start date
Don't make me have to start infracting.
Can't be arsed to deal with crying today, I'll just ban you if you complain.
Can't be arsed to deal with crying today, I'll just ban you if you complain.
i hate this
Haze~
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2010
- Messages
- 214
I was waiting for lordy to improvise, see he did its alright now.
Interpetation and perspective.
Lol you guys.
Gettin pri mad.
Gettin pri mad.
We all chill dawg
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Keep the match-up discussion on topic plz.
Spam goes in the social.
Spam goes in the social.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Mr. Gaymen Watch.
All you do is shield, shield out of dash, dash grab and shield grab.
Occasionally follow up or punish his predictability because most G&Ws are idiots.
ggs, next character.
All you do is shield, shield out of dash, dash grab and shield grab.
Occasionally follow up or punish his predictability because most G&Ws are idiots.
ggs, next character.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
mlorenzo
Smash Journeyman
we should start discussing King Dedede.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
We already have a summary of him, check the OP next time.
G&W is basically set at 35-65 for now.
mlorenzo
Smash Journeyman
Oh I didn't know that we had a summary for him lol. Anyway we should discuss a new character.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Well considering everyone's opinion so far,
You/Ramz *cough* oldschool: 25-75
A2Z *cough* biased: 30-70
Me/Darky/Lorenzo: 37.5-62.5
Chirp: 40-60
233-398 / 46.4-79.6
I can't ****ing think right now but that's about 35-65 xD
You/Ramz *cough* oldschool: 25-75
A2Z *cough* biased: 30-70
Me/Darky/Lorenzo: 37.5-62.5
Chirp: 40-60
233-398 / 46.4-79.6
I can't ****ing think right now but that's about 35-65 xD
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
I was considering a high level of play. Honestly, take a look at G&W's moveset, majority of his options are so easy to punish just by shielding. Aside from his jab and dtilt, everything is ridiculously easy to get around.
Not saying that he can't do **** to us, but just sayin'.
I'm leaning toward 35:65, mainly if you can get him on a stage that's not mobile, where you can keep the pressure on him without and drastic changes in the playing field. FD/BF, pretty easy to get around him IMO. Delfino, RC, stages like those, you should ban.
35:65 if you get a neutral stage that you feel comfortable on.
30:70 anywhere else, because even if the G&W doesn't know the MU, you're going to have trouble keeping the pressure on him with grabs and such.
Not saying that he can't do **** to us, but just sayin'.
I'm leaning toward 35:65, mainly if you can get him on a stage that's not mobile, where you can keep the pressure on him without and drastic changes in the playing field. FD/BF, pretty easy to get around him IMO. Delfino, RC, stages like those, you should ban.
35:65 if you get a neutral stage that you feel comfortable on.
30:70 anywhere else, because even if the G&W doesn't know the MU, you're going to have trouble keeping the pressure on him with grabs and such.
I say it's time we invite the GW boards.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
A2Z was in here. I'll go ahead and post there, the problem is most other boards base MUs off of bad CFs that run into smashes and gimp themselves.
Haze~
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jun 29, 2010
- Messages
- 214
brawls gone too far in level for stuff like that , I thought MUs were based on high lvl play, atleast they should be lol.. 65-35 imo.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
I'm saying there are very few legit Falcons xD
35-65 is honestly the most accurate ratio. I was looking at the first MU thread, and lol GnW was like 5th best back then.
Anyways, discussion for GnW is still going. I already posted in their boards but got no reply so far.
just fyi
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
+ Auto-Canceled Pivot Nipple -> Knee.
G&W isn't actually unsafe; I have no idea where you guys are getting that. If you are playing some G&W who has no clue what he's doing at all such that that kind of shield tactic is actually working, then go for it. But if you are fighting that kind of G&W, you might as well just spam Falcon Punch because odds are you can win with anything against that type of player.
If I fought someone doing nothing but trying to abuse shield, I'd just jump around and fair/bair all day, always working to keep maximum spacing (retreating fairs, not advancing!). That tactic is going to be pretty hard for Captain Falcon to deal with already. You have no invincible moves, no moves with real range, and no projectile. Your only option remaining to threaten G&W if he falls back on raw, carefully spaced turtle spam is to cleverly maneuver to break his spacing and attack at a smart time. Shielding a lot is only going to make that harder.
I'll admit that I don't have much of any Captain Falcon experience and am only posting here because I was asked to. However, I really don't see how G&W is supposed to lose this match-up; nothing Captain Falcon has is really scary for G&W. I could go on about this, but slow attack speed, low range/priority character is like a dream come true for G&W. Your running speed doesn't really matter much in this match-up; if I ever run into a Captain Falcon, I'm just going to fight him like Sonic, and that's a really good match-up for G&W. Is there any reason a G&W who knows the Sonic match-up and has a general idea of the properties of Captain Falcon's moves should ever lose to a Captain Falcon?
I really want to stress the obvious. Shielding is something that works about the same for every character other than Yoshi. Captain Falcon's OoS options aren't even good so it's not like you can make it into something special; Captain Falcon is not Marth. G&W is a good character. That means he can go toe to toe with other good characters who can shield just as well as Captain Falcon except with better OoS options and a ton of threatening stuff that has nothing to do with shielding. You are not going to beat any even semi-competent G&W main by relying on a universal option like shielding. If you want to beat G&Ws with Captain Falcon, you are going to need to find things that only Captain Falcon can do that help you win. G&W can handle your shield just fine.
That being said, I suspect this match-up really is a large advantage for Mr. Game & Watch. I don't think the numbers mean anything, but Captain Falcon is very non-scary for G&W even among low tiers. He's just really short on things to do that really force G&W to change his tactics or put G&W in dangerous positions.
If I fought someone doing nothing but trying to abuse shield, I'd just jump around and fair/bair all day, always working to keep maximum spacing (retreating fairs, not advancing!). That tactic is going to be pretty hard for Captain Falcon to deal with already. You have no invincible moves, no moves with real range, and no projectile. Your only option remaining to threaten G&W if he falls back on raw, carefully spaced turtle spam is to cleverly maneuver to break his spacing and attack at a smart time. Shielding a lot is only going to make that harder.
I'll admit that I don't have much of any Captain Falcon experience and am only posting here because I was asked to. However, I really don't see how G&W is supposed to lose this match-up; nothing Captain Falcon has is really scary for G&W. I could go on about this, but slow attack speed, low range/priority character is like a dream come true for G&W. Your running speed doesn't really matter much in this match-up; if I ever run into a Captain Falcon, I'm just going to fight him like Sonic, and that's a really good match-up for G&W. Is there any reason a G&W who knows the Sonic match-up and has a general idea of the properties of Captain Falcon's moves should ever lose to a Captain Falcon?
I really want to stress the obvious. Shielding is something that works about the same for every character other than Yoshi. Captain Falcon's OoS options aren't even good so it's not like you can make it into something special; Captain Falcon is not Marth. G&W is a good character. That means he can go toe to toe with other good characters who can shield just as well as Captain Falcon except with better OoS options and a ton of threatening stuff that has nothing to do with shielding. You are not going to beat any even semi-competent G&W main by relying on a universal option like shielding. If you want to beat G&Ws with Captain Falcon, you are going to need to find things that only Captain Falcon can do that help you win. G&W can handle your shield just fine.
That being said, I suspect this match-up really is a large advantage for Mr. Game & Watch. I don't think the numbers mean anything, but Captain Falcon is very non-scary for G&W even among low tiers. He's just really short on things to do that really force G&W to change his tactics or put G&W in dangerous positions.
Thank you.
My points exactly.
Funny how some falcon's where whining 'bout beeing underestimated, while they did the same. tenfold.
Thanks AA, you da bess.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
If you took that in a literal sense, my apologies. My point in stating about G&W's overrated options of spam is that Falcon has ways around it. He doesn't need out of shield options other than a buffered dash -> grab. That plays out just like all his other match-ups, G&W is no different, other than his attacks stay out longer or have immense amounts of predictability behind them.
It's arguable, but I would have to agree with you on G&W's retreating options. A retreating Fair isn't a bad option to keep Falcon pressured and limited on options of approach, but using that, or bair too close to Falcon is just silly without proper spacing. Even with spacing, using Bair against Falcon- or any character for that matter, is risky if they know how to time attacks between the Bair hitboxes. Ftilt OoS does perfectly fine against G&W's Bair for that matter. Fair, I agree with you completely though.
Captain Falcon shouldn't be winning this match-up statistically if that's what you mean. I don't think anyone here stated that whatsoever unless they're complete idiots. That being said, G&W doesn't have anything that exactly shuts Falcon down either. The scariest thing I would say that G&W has to worry about is being KO'd fairly quickly via Fsmash/Dsmash and possibly Utilt. "Slow attack speed, low range/priority"? Again, arguable, but Falcon shouldn't be throwing out easily punished moves in ANY match-up. He should just revolve around being almost completely defensive and pressuring with grabs, especially in this match-up. G&W leaves opportunities for punishing too- at least, enough time for a smash or utilt to connect. -- As for comparing Falcon to Sonic? Lolno. When it comes to a Sonic that's being dash and shield grab happy, go ahead and do whatever it is you do against Sonic to Falcon, because that's the only reason I see comparing them is even viable.
As stated, Falcon's out of shield options aren't that horrible. No, they're not as good as Marth or any other character, but the only thing that he really needs to punish out of a shield is by buffering a dash -> grab. G&W really isn't much of an exception to that considering he leaves more opportunities for Falcon to abuse it than most characters do. The only thing Falcon has going for him is his ability to stay within a character's comfort zone. How can he safely do that? Dash -> Shield -> Buffered Dash -> Grab - or retreating and repeating until he feels he can get a grab or something else in. Randomly throwing out spaced attacks from the shield really isn't that bad against G&W either to be completely honest. Aside from aerial pressure, 'jab' and Dtilt, G&W isn't hard for Falcon to get grab-happy with at all.
Either way, Falcon shouldn't be winning this match-up with ease or anything remotely close; I just want it to be known that people are overlooking many of his options against some of these characters. He's still a pretty garbage character, no matter how you look at it. G&W might not be able to shut him down like Marth or Meta Knight, but he shouldn't have much trouble getting around the common Falcon at all. Honestly, playing Falcon in any way but what I said, being shield campy, would make the match-up FAR worse than 30:70.
This^ made me lol.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
Using Falcon at all makes me lol.
Ditto .
lordhelmet
Smash Master
ok.
Uair, utilt, and dtilt say hi.
We're not going to be camping out in our shield all day. Bair has 15 cooldown frames, saying we can't jump (6 frames) then uair you (6 frames) out of that is a little ridiculous.
Fair is annoying but if I can get through Marth's fair walls GnW shouldn't be too hard.
No one's saying an equally-skilled CF will win the match. For one, CF's attack speed isn't too bad if he's using the right move. Jab and uair is all he needs.
I don't know why everyone says CF has terribad range, sure it's not the best. Again, Uair, utilt, and dtilt say hi.
Priority? Falcon Kick breaks through just about everything, though it is slow and punishable. Same with utilt pretty much.
ok.
Ratio? Again 35-65 seems the most accurate.
Nah, 70-30 is more like it
lordhelmet
Smash Master
GnW ain't Falco.
Edit: Oh that's right you guys wanted something lower so he's 25-75 according to this.
Anyway, I'm just saying he's not the 5th best character in the game anymore and Falcon isn't the worst. Even if you don't play the game anymore that should say something.
Edit: Oh that's right you guys wanted something lower so he's 25-75 according to this.
Anyway, I'm just saying he's not the 5th best character in the game anymore and Falcon isn't the worst. Even if you don't play the game anymore that should say something.
68-32 GnW.
Thanks for your post AA.
But please notice this is Falcon boards.
We're not discussing how good a MU is for Falcon,
we're discussing about how it isn't that bad.
So yeah it's GW'adv, but not at a **** level.
@Helmet : SHUair doesn't hit a grounded GW. The only things that are guaranteed OOS if GW fails his spacing are jab, grab and maybe dash attack.
But please notice this is Falcon boards.
We're not discussing how good a MU is for Falcon,
we're discussing about how it isn't that bad.
So yeah it's GW'adv, but not at a **** level.
@Helmet : SHUair doesn't hit a grounded GW. The only things that are guaranteed OOS if GW fails his spacing are jab, grab and maybe dash attack.
Darky-Sama
Smash Lord
That's the only problem with discussing Falcon, people are too biased.
{Falcon Mains:} Overrate Falcon, point out his good aspects moreso than the bad and make him seem like a far greater character than he really is. That hinders the boards and we barely get anything done that way. He's a bad character, get over it.
{Non-Falcon Mains:} Degrade Falcon constantly, refuse to accept any improvement in his metagame based on 'statistics' and tier position. Most points are accurate, but we already know the common knowledge; our character is terrible. We're looking for new/viable knowledge on the match-ups, not the same thing over and over again. lol
Personally, I like using this garbage character though. Let people believe what they want and make their statements. It makes it much more satisfying when you win an 'unwinnable' match-up because people fail to see him as a threat to their character.
...which he isn't.
EDIT: Oh yeah, didn't mention that in my post. Thanks for the input though, AA. At least you did mention a lot retaining to the match-up. We rarely get that much around here.
{Falcon Mains:} Overrate Falcon, point out his good aspects moreso than the bad and make him seem like a far greater character than he really is. That hinders the boards and we barely get anything done that way. He's a bad character, get over it.
{Non-Falcon Mains:} Degrade Falcon constantly, refuse to accept any improvement in his metagame based on 'statistics' and tier position. Most points are accurate, but we already know the common knowledge; our character is terrible. We're looking for new/viable knowledge on the match-ups, not the same thing over and over again. lol
Personally, I like using this garbage character though. Let people believe what they want and make their statements. It makes it much more satisfying when you win an 'unwinnable' match-up because people fail to see him as a threat to their character.
EDIT: Oh yeah, didn't mention that in my post. Thanks for the input though, AA. At least you did mention a lot retaining to the match-up. We rarely get that much around here.
lordhelmet
Smash Master
Rofl, very true.
Add 2Knee and Ramz to "Non-Falcon Mains" and your post is 100% accurate.
I was about to post that^
But lordy beat me to it.
Though he didnt list names..
Ironic how you are one of those, too..