BBR Weekly Character Discussion #3: Falco

After Diddy and Zamus, this week we focus on Falco and Pit.

For those who missed the first two, we looked at:
-Strengths/weaknesses
-Matchups
-Tournament performance
-Current tier list placement and potential for the future

Revserved for later, sleeping for now.

falco is fricken ridiculous. i hate this character.

his lasers and simple effective strategy make him amazing. his moveset is extremely solid and his side b is stupid good. he can do the same thing in almost every matchup and it works! the only thing that's really bad about this character is killing and sometimes recovering but even then, he doesnt suffer too much. Falco also really only has one true bad matchup, pikachu. He's not that bad at all vs IC's and might be one of the best characters vs MK and the rest of top tiers.

There's not many GREAT falcos out there atm but the ones that are good are amazing. DEHF consistently ***** west coast and Shugo has been showing how stupid (extremely good) this character is in the Midwest. Ozz shows texas while keitaro shows east coast. There's not many of em, but they're all very good.

Falco is what...4th in the tier list atm. Imo, he can be 2nd best if played perfectly. He really never needs to approach and his only big weakness is when planking is allowed.

...

I HATE THIS CHARACTER! lol.

I love Falco.
I mained him in melee, I use him every now and then in brawl.
Going pyew pyew=fun.


now we all know his pros.
Good aerial game, good ground game, good aerial game.
Crap recovery (though not so bad as it was in melee where it was practically death sentence).
He can't deal with planking. At all.
Dair? Not as disjointed as it used to be in melee. So many can simply Uair him.
He has absolutely NO tools to deal with planking, even more so because his recovery can lead to him being punished so harshly.
yeah he may not die from getting hit during his recovery, but he will take damage.

His tournament placings haven't been amazing as of late, which is understandable because MK is one of his more difficult matches


hunger ninja'ed me

I think at the top level Falco is either 2nd or 3rd best in the game, most likely 3rd. I've figured out recently that Falco has a guaranteed kill set up out of down throw, but the only problem is that it requires a very quick reaction to accomplish.

At the highest level of game play Falco's worst match up be Pikachu and Ice Climbers.

His biggest weakness is his horrbile vertical recovery.

I don't have extensive knowledge of the character but I do consider falco to be one of my better known matchups with Diddy Kong.

One thought: I do think falco has better matchups with the best characters in the game than just about anybody, but unlike Diddy and Snake, Falco has what I consider 'hard counters' in Ice Climbers and Pikachu, which is what I think sets him at about fourth overall.

Pikachu yes, but not Ice Climbers, unless you call a 60-40/55-45 match up a hard counter.

DEHF said:

Pikachu yes, but not Ice Climbers, unless you call a 60-40 55-45 match up a hard counter.

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I see, I've always considered it worse than that but at the same time I've seen Shugo beat ICs many times and vids of you doing it. Shugo always whines to me how hard the matchup is though ^_^

DEHF said:

I think at the top level Falco is either 2nd or 3rd best in the game, most likely 3rd. I've figured out recently that Falco has a guaranteed kill set up out of down throw, but the only problem is that it requires a very quick reaction to accomplish.

At the highest level of game play Falco's worst match up be Pikachu and Ice Climbers.

His biggest weakness is his horrbile vertical recovery.

Click to expand...

mind sharing that guaranteed setup?

I have to agree with the match-ups, those 2 are the worst, but after some serious pika practice I think pika takes the crown as falco's worst match-up.

I don't consider istudying that bad, at TSL4 I MMed istudying's Ice climbers for 20 euros ( lol I though he played snake johns) and lost 1-3 in pretty close games, that was my first time facing ics and he said he knew the falco match-up very well, so from what I saw it wasn't as hard as I expected, it's all about splitting them, something sadly you can't do with pika :/

The other problem Falco has that other top tiers hasn't is that he sucks hard in some stages, specially brinstar and the like. Yes you can ban one but Falco vs a character that's good on stages like frigate, RC and brinstar is a though battle (Mk anyone?). Playing a char that's good on this stages and losing the first match is pretty much a game over.

Btw, what do you guys think about Falco vs Marth? I keep having trouble at times vs him, and people insist it's about even, Doesn't feel like falco can camp him because everytime falco jumps and shoots lasers marth can get really close and sideb and he also punishes sideb rather well.

And yes, planking is another problem, falco better keep the lead at all times vs pit, mk, etc. or he's pretty much done for. I use to do down angled ftilt at the ledge, but besides that and jumping out for them ( crazy if they have few %) I can't think of any other option against planking

oh and about Falco overall placing in the tier list, I think he's sometimes overrated, I can see Diddy, Wario and Marth being better than him and I dunno about ICs. He's still top tier material of course.

If Falco reacts to someone's DI after d throw perfectly, there's nothing that person can do about it.

Falco Marth isn't really a camping match up, They both go pretty aggressive vs. each other. Falco can also chain grab Marth from 0-43 into a dair. Falco can also spike Marth out of his up b recovery before they can reach the ledge if timed correctly.

Brinstar is by far Falco's worse stage, but RC and frigate aren't too horrible. I almost beat M2K in tournament on RC a few weeks ago, he won because he got the gayest tornado kill I've ever seen in my entire life.

YOU JUMPED ABOVE ME!!! I was like YESSSSS

Mew2King said:

YOU JUMPED ABOVE ME!!! I was like YESSSSS

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Stop talking mister "I refuse to lose a tournament"

:|

There's no question that Falco is very, very good.




Matchups

I agree with DEHF that his worse matchups are Pika/IC's, but I think IC's are definitely at least 60:40. They probably aren't as bad as 70:30 though. Falco is very capable of beating IC's, but his options are undeniably limited. If that's not a definitive ~60:40, then I don't know what is.

I will disagree that those are his only bad matchups, though. I think Larry ranks Falco a bit too high based on his own skill level over the character itself.

Don't misunderstand me though-- while I think Falco has a few disadvantaged matchups, none of them are that terrible and they're all do-able. Falco can have trouble with other characters like G&W, Kirby, Sheik, etc. but none of them are hopeless.

I define them as "disadvantaged" because there are plenty of other characters that a player would rather use in those matchups over Falco. I don't really see how that can be disputed, given Falco's ability to be combo'd and lack of kill power, there are plenty of characters who are a better choice for taking on G&W, Kirby, Sheik, etc.

For example, I would prefer DeDeDe. Falco is just too easy to kill; a few good reads from a G&W for instance can take him out and put him at a sever disadvantage. It's not a "hard" matchup, but I wouldn't call it even either.

Falco has a great matchup chart overall, but he just isn't the best "pick a character and stick with it" choice compared to characters like MK, Snake, Marth, Diddy, Wario, Peach, (possibly even Olimar), or IC's, who all have few or no bad matchups, or better tools to deal with the bad matchups that they do have.





Character strengths / weaknesses

His ability to zone and limit the options of other characters is incredibly impressive. Phantasm, Jab, Chain Grab damage, and Lasers alone are a force to be reckoned with for any character. That said, I don't think it's reasonable to wave away the fact that Falco dies extremely early and gets combo'd to kill % quite easily. Not only that, but he's gimp-able, given his terrible vertical recovery.

"When played perfectly" isn't really something that I care to delve into in terms of matchups, personally. With characters like Akuma or Seth in SF4 or MK in Brawl, everyone always says "if played perfectly, they're unstoppable!" and yet, pretty much no one ever achieves that feat. I just don't think it's reasonable to base a character on some kind of unproven theory of invincibility, especially when the characters that have said theory applied to them are so often low health / easily killable characters.

I feel that we all too often overlook how easy a character can be killed based on their health when considering their tier placing. Snake, for instance, can kill extremely easily, yet it is extremely difficult for the opponent to kill him... that alone keeps Snake very highly placed, and a lot of people overlook that, but it's a huge strength of the character.





Placement

I think Falco is a very strong character, but I don't think he's top 3. The #1 spot is obviously MK and I don't see Snake dropping from #2 any time soon.

I'm probably going to catch a lot of flack for this, but I would place Marth above Falco on any tier list. Based on the traditions of this community, a lot of people see that as crazy, but Marth has better overall matchups than anyone in the game, save MK. That is a fact that gets overlooked way too often.

This isn't Marth discussion though, so I won't get too into that.




I think Falco is pretty solid at 4th or 5th, about where he is now. I could see him either way as better or worse than IC's, Wario, or Diddy, etc. etc., depending on how the metagame evolves.

I would be more willing to place Falco at #3 if he just didn't die so darned easily. That is literally all that is holding him back-- however, that's exactly why he was designed to die early. It's a very common theme to make a character like Falco easy to kill; it justifies how good all of his options are in doing so.

Falco should always be "top" tiered, no questions there. It's just a question of what order he should be in within that top tier.

Falco's vertical recovery is his main weakness, in my opinion. Some characters' ploy against Falco is taking him off stage(Meta Knight, ROB, ...). Falco has a great grab and camping game though. Besides, he's got decent aerial attacks, such as Bair and Nair. I actually think he does pretty well in the air, even having a regular base aerial mobility(19th best). His Jab is also amazing.

Furthermore, his tournament perfomance is among the best in the game according to this thread. Falco only has two bad matchups. One is against Pikachu(hard counter), and the other one is against the Ice Climbers(not real counters, but they have a solid advantage). Anyway, I honestly think he should rise in the next tier list update. Either 2nd or 3rd best. The latter is more likely to happen.

Ive always thought falco to be an amazing character. My opinion is that he should be higher than snake on the tier list. Probably second or third best.

MMM Falco has very good kill moves compared to move characters. His up smash is a very good kill move, especially because it sends characters upward, which means they can't use their jump to momentum cancel it.

Falco does not have a disadvantage vs. gaw, kirby, or sheik, at worse they're even. At a low level gaw ***** Falco, but his bair is very easy to SDI and his nair can be SDI too, not to mention all of his kill moves are very slow.

Falco is the second best character in the game. So good.

I'd say falco beats gaw actually, he kills him soo early, and also easily. gaw is the one with trouble killing ( here and in most match-ups) and falco's bair and lasers **** gaw's aerials.

Imo gaw is still overrated, such a bad character. but well, this thread is about Falco, so I won't go in detail

I also think Falco is the second best character in the game. With his camping game he never has to approach and gets leads easily, at least in theory, so I wonder if planking should really be that much of an issue. He racks up damage fast in many matchups (CGs) and between upsmash and back air isn't that bad at getting kills. I don't know him well enough to say with confidence that Pikachu and ICs are his only bad matchups, but I'll take DEHF's word on that. Even if those matchups are (soft) counters, they're not that common and he has many good matchups that are more relevant. I might be somewhat biased because this is the character I tend to have the most trouble with and my region doesn't allow all of his bad stages, but I can only see him getting better.

im so glad im not the only one thinking falco is the 2nd best =P Shugo calls me dumb for saying that lol.

LOL @ Shugo, he still hasn't learned all of the Falco tricksies yet

Could anyone break down how Falco does vs MK? I'm very new to this MU and DEHF destroyed me.

I'd say Falco goes even with MK, but realistically it's probably very slightly in MK's favor. Falco can rack up damage very fast against him and kills at about 120% with u smash. Besides Mew2king, Tyrant would probably be able to explain it best from the MK's point of view.

double post xD

MK vs. Falco

From my experience: 0-40% play Falco like he's IC's and stay in the air. If Falco gets a grab within that range he can easily turn it up to 60%+ and Falco has a lot shenanigans can he pull from spikes. Nothing safe or solid, but definitely needs to be looked at. MK shouldn't be obvious with his air camping (like d-air'ing above Falco repeatedly) because then you'll probably just get n-aired. Uh... some MK's like to take eat the first 0-40% on platforms before going head on to Falco. Not a bad idea, but I prefer to at least trade with Falco if he's going to hit me.

Uh, once MK reaches 45% he doesn't have to worry about too many d-throw mix-ups. He should work his way in. A good range to linger is close enough where you can react and punish an over+b but far enough that he can't poke you with f-tilt.

Uh, try not to press any directions and b hard in mid tornado. A laser can easily turn MK's tornado into an overb which = free up-smash or suicide.

Tilts and grabs when up close. If you aerial out of shield make sure it's a full hop so Falco has a harder time punishing powershielded or regular shielded aerials. Tornado a lot; it eats his overb recovery. Make sure you do it rising so Falco doesn't pop out of it at the last second and follow up with like a d-air.

This match heavily relies on the first stock, imo. If MK gets the first kill then Falco comes in 2nd stock with 0% making it very easy to combo and rack up damage. If Falco gets the first kill then MK has to avoid getting grabbed at 0%-40% while attempting to kill Falco. Not really safe to play a ground game with Falco at this percent and it's harder to kill Falco from the air so yeah. Once MK gets Falco in the air he needs to keep him in the air and edgeguard well.

Good Falco's usually aren't dying until 130%+ unless they get gimped.

Uh... don't d-smash spam as MK. Blocked d-smash = free upsmash/dash attack/f-tilt for Falco.

This match-up is pretty even imo on neutral stages. Then Falco gets hit heavy with stages like Brinstar, RC, and maybe Frigate.

omni it's 0-30 not 40

The "perfectly buffered" cg on Marth for falco has to have dthrow started from around 0% I believe. Marth also has chain grabs on falco that may out damage what falco does to him.

I think tides are turning though in a different sense. Whilst Falco's best "neutral" was long considered smashville [with 100% FD strike rate] and Marth BF, I'm starting to think Falco does best on BF than anything other than FD in most match ups, whilst SV may be marth's best stage. Anyway lololol Marth.

Falco just has devastatingly good moves, but not as much variation to them as other high tier characters do. He is still capable of mix ups (mostly in close combat), but from many distinctively common zones there are only one or two variations (and most of that variation is timing based, not move choice based). This "predictability" is still hard to react to, but some players with better than average reaction speed can handle the bird better than others.

DEHF said:

MMM Falco has very good kill moves compared to move characters. His up smash is a very good kill move, especially because it sends characters upward, which means they can't use their jump to momentum cancel it.

Falco does not have a disadvantage vs. gaw, kirby, or sheik, at worse they're even. At a low level gaw ***** Falco, but his bair is very easy to SDI and his nair can be SDI too, not to mention all of his kill moves are very slow.

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Oh I know G&W doesn't **** Falco, I would never suggest that. But no disadvantage at all? Not even a slight one? It really just doesn't seem sensible to rate it as even compared to G&W's other even matchups, I dunno :\

It seems like there are just so many other characters who you could pick that go even with him that have a far easier time than Falco against him specifically, but also including the other chars I listed and possibly more.

I could be missing something though-- I don't win nationals, obviously.




Compared to the other kill-moves in the game, I don't really see how up-smash is a good kill move considering how incredibly unsafe it is unless you bdacus or get it off an aerial SHDL or silent SHL. Those are all viable setups but honestly compared to something like MK dsmash, snake up tilt, diddy banana > dmash, wario (pick a move), etc. I don't see how it's one of the best in the game. Certainly viable, but one of the best in the game? I dunno, seems just a little lacking.

As far as I know, Falco's best / most truly safe kill setup is nair > up-tilt at 170%+ :\




Again I would never argue that he's bad or "gets owned" by anyone but Pikachu, but I think saying that he has no disadvantage whatsoever in any of those matchups is a bit over-the-top.



It also seems like there should be other top-Falco players placing well, but it's basically just you, Larry. No one else does anything good with him. I would think that if he was the second best in the game, more people would do well with him.

I suppose it's possible that he just hasn't been picked up by the right people, but it seems like Larry is the only person doing well with Falco. That should be fairly tell-tale of him being a good character, but not a top 3.

Perhaps the metagame is just lagging with Falco? I dunno. He's not that easy to pickup, so I guess it's possible. I would really just think more people would be using him successfully by now...






Also, regarding Battlefield and what Shaya brought up-- yes, I think Falco is really really really good on Battlefield. Honestly I would rather go there than FD against most characters. The top platform allows you to mixup your recovery game and make it back safely better than almost any other stage.

DEHF said:

I'd say Falco goes even with MK, but realistically it's probably very slightly in MK's favor. Falco can rack up damage very fast against him and kills at about 120% with u smash. Besides Mew2king, Tyrant would probably be able to explain it best from the MK's point of view.

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Yeah, it seems very close to even but I've always wanted to give MK a tiny advantage. Mostly because it seems like MK has a much easier time coming back against Falco when Falco is in the lead, while Falco has a much more difficult time coming back if MK gets the lead.

Very close matchup for sure though, no more than 55:45 either way.

Shaya Falco's chain grab does slightly more than Marth's, and it doesn't have to be started at 0 it still works til about 20%.

MMM MK's d smash isn't that great, it's fast, but it's punishable and weak. Diddy does have a better kill set-up, but falco's u smash and f smash are stronger kill moves. His kill moves aren't amazing, but they're not horrible.

The reason gaw doesn't win is because Falco is better at racking up damage than gaw is. gaw does kill Falco at very early %s, but falco kills him pretty early as, plus Falco has an easier time land u smash than gaw does landing his smash attacks.

There are plently of Falco players that have been doing well recently. Lie,a Falco from MD/VA has been beating logic and winning tournies there, Shugo has been doing well, plus SK92 has started playing again.

Perhaps I haven't been keeping up with the other Falco placings enough lately-- I knew Shugo and Lie did decently at MLG, but that was the only major performance I had seen from them. I wasn't aware that SK92 was back from the dead either O_o

Yes, Falco's F-Smash is really strong. There's no setup for it, though. I mean, there are gimmicks or you can get a read and get one, but it's not able to be combo'd into or anything and it's too slow to pull out at random like MK d-smash or snake up-tilt. I really love his F-Smash but I wouldn't personally call it a "one of the best kill moves" because you basically have to mind-game to hit with it, which may get you punished.

Again please don't mistake this for me arguing that any of Falco's moves are bad or that he's bad... I just have a bit of an issue with the relative "guess work" required to kill with him. It seems that many other characters have kill moves that require less guess work and are safer.

Shugo's been winning everything in our side of the midwest lately, lol.

At the showdown the only players that outplaced him were Mew2King, Ally, and ADHD.

He dropped a set to blue rogue recently, other than that I can't think of anybody else beating him besides Mew2King. Last time he and Mew2King played he took a game one, the only other person to take a game off of Mew2King that tournament was ADHD.

MetalMusicMan said:

Yes, Falco's F-Smash is really strong. There's no setup for it, though. I mean, there are gimmicks or you can get a read and get one, but it's not able to be combo'd into or anything and it's too slow to pull out at random like MK d-smash or snake up-tilt. I really love his F-Smash but I wouldn't personally call it a "one of the best kill moves" because you basically have to mind-game to hit with it, which may get you punished.

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Falco's u smash is a better kill move than his f smash overall. Momentum cancelling with jump allows people to survive that move much longer than u smash. Falco players have also been learning how to use bdacus, which allows them to throw out u smash covering a great amount of distance. They could also throw this out and make it very difficult or safe from being punished if an opponent shields this.

Smash G 0 D said:

Is D-throw -> B-dacus a guaranteed kill on MK at a certain percent (what was it... 90%~ish?)?

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If a character DIs up the bdacus won't hit them. On MK you have to d throw them at about 109% for it to kill.

DEHF said:

If a character DIs up the bdacus won't hit them. On MK you have to d throw them at about 109% for it to kill.

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Most people instinctively DI-up at a high percent though. I just don't see the setup as guaranteed, given that. It's a good gimmick, but it's not in any way guaranteed if they can literally DI out of it.

Also, I definitely agree that u-smash is better than f-smash. No argument there.

Lol falco. He is so horrible, he gets destroyed by me :D

But for serious, I think you guys are giving him a little too much credit. Yes he is top tier, but I don't think he is top 3 or 4.

Not only does he have a glaring weakness with his vertical recovery, but he also has problems with being juggled. His dair, while good, doesn't have a large hitbox so a lot of characters can hit him up and not worry. The only thing they would have to worry about is when he phantasms away, but that is really REALLY punishable.

Falco also has a range which is really difficult for him to deal with. It is outside his jab range, but too close to laser (I would say 4 falco lengths). A lot of times I can pressure a Falco to that range and then he instinctively phantasms away, but then fast characters can react and get a punish on him. Falco can't do much in that range, and it is also where I force many of my Chaingrabs...but enough about MU specifics.

I would definitely give Falco 5th on the tier list. MK, Snake, Marth, and either Diddy Kong or Pikachu above him.

ESAM said:

I think you guys are giving him a little too much credit. Yes he is top tier, but I don't think he is top 3 or 4.

Not only does he have a glaring weakness with his vertical recovery, but he also has problems with being juggled. His dair, while good, doesn't have a large hitbox so a lot of characters can hit him up and not worry. The only thing they would have to worry about is when he phantasms away, but that is really REALLY punishable.

Falco also has a range which is really difficult for him to deal with. It is outside his jab range, but too close to laser (I would say 4 falco lengths). A lot of times I can pressure a Falco to that range and then he instinctively phantasms away, but then fast characters can react and get a punish on him. Falco can't do much in that range, and it is also where I force many of my Chaingrabs...but enough about MU specifics.

I would definitely give Falco 5th on the tier list. MK, Snake, Marth, and either Diddy Kong or Pikachu above him.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly-- excellent assessment, I very much agree with the majority of it. I'm pleasantly surprised that there are others who think Marth is good, haha.

Falco is not that great of a character without arbitrary rules put in place. Without planking rules in place to artificially buff him, a lot of characters can simply grab the ledge.

Taking it away, his only "big weakness" is his relative difficulty in getting KOs safely.

LOL! Marth better than Falco? ROFL!

Marth sux guys. There's so many simple things people can do to **** Marth, it's just no one knows the MUs. Talk about Marth later.

Falco might have a killing "issue" but the fact of the matter is, this character has the best boost distance kill move in the game, and a semi-rapid fire laser projectile, with a warp tool. Know what that means? Everyone is shielding all day every day. Once I get my opponent to kill percent, I pretty much get grabs for free all day every day. You'll be at 190 in no time, because high percent pummels into a throw, back into the laser **** is going to keep the damage wracking up. Then, before you know it, Bair, Ftilt, Dash Attack, Dair, Uair, etc. EVERYTHING becomes a kill move. Also, Dair - Uair legit combos on some characters at certain percents, and Dair combos into stuff for a long time.

Shine is top 5 most underused moves in the game. I've been plugging in SO much extra damage with this. Initially, I was like, "Oh, massive lag, it must suck." NOPE. Follows up lasers, aerial anti air, comes out fast as hell, can be used while falling, breaks nado, follows up combos, etc. I seriously recommend all Falco's to try and plug this wonderful move back into their game. It's not so much the bonus percent this baby gives, but how amazing it is to put a recovering character into a bad position, or force someone back onto the ledge against Falco (this is a BAD place to be if the Falco isn't busy trying to spike you like a moron).

This character has a THREE frame window to hit him after a spot dodge, before he gets out another spot dodge or jab. If he goes into shield, only a TWO frame window to hit him. If it were not for this, then yes, Marth would **** Falco, but since Marth doesn't even have a hitbox that comes out on frame two (his fastest moves are Dancing Blade and Fair on Frame 4) then this is an extremely good defense against what would be considered one if his worst MUs. MK has the ftilt and the nado (primarily the Nado) to deal with this. Marth has Dancing Blade which doesn't even consistently work, and booyah, blocking or rolling this is the kill set-up.

Honestly, I don't have problems killing as Falco vs. most characters because if you're patient and play safe but tricky, you can avoid taking damage really well, and rack up STUPID damage. This heavily encourages characters to over commit, or maybe even just normally commit, trying to punish one of his really good dodges, and failing, resulting in a kill.

Also, please stop using MK's Dsmash as an example of a move that's safe on block. MK's Dsmash is a good standard punish, and it's good if you think your opponent is going to try and grab, because it pushes them out of grab range, but Dsmash is very punishable (-20 on block). It hits on 5, but Falco's Usmash hits on 6 or 8, and can be used while moving forward, so I would definitely consider them comparable. MK's Dsmash is also very DIable, where as if I'm above the damage threshold, I know I'm dying when I get hit by Falco's Usmash.

I think Snake sucks, and Falco is probably the third best character in the game. Maybe 2nd.

MK's d-smash is definitely not safe on block. I hope it wasn't misconstrued as me saying that; I just said it was a good kill move.

I also think you're severely under-rating Marth's ability to punish Falco's spot-dodge. Dancing blade is really, really good at that, and you also get shield pokes out of it. It doesn't need to have a 2 frame-startup to punish a 2-frame window of vulnerability, because it's a lingering move.