BBR Weekly Character Discussion #4: Pit

Marc · Jul 5, 2010

After Diddy and Zamus, this week we focus on Falco and Pit.

For those who missed the first two, we looked at:
-Strengths/weaknesses
-Matchups
-Tournament performance
-Current tier list placement and potential for the future

AllyKnight · Jul 5, 2010

-Strengths: Strong BAIR (kills SUPER fast at 90-100%), glide served as a good recovery move, fast arrows with not a terrible delay. Very fast Smashes, spacables aerials, good mobility, reflectors.

-Weaknesses: Lack of killing moves, most moves are multiple hits move which are easy to SDI/DI (uairs,nair, Fsmash, side B, neutral attack). Recovery is easy to hit and when its hit, Pit can no longer recover if he has no more jumps.

-Matchup that I know:

Snake vs Pit: slightly in Snake's advantage, the MU is not that bad, saving the bair for early kill (around 100-110%), spamming arrows vs Snake is also good, Pit's grabbing game isnt too bad but he still have trouble getting in snake's defenses.

-Tournament performance: The only pit right now that places is koolaid i think

-Current tier list placement and potential for the future: Pit can grow up, just no one plays him

gallax · Jul 5, 2010

I think pit was being held back by the lgl tbh. As long as there is no lgl I believe pit will rise considerably on the list. Any pit that has the patience to plank will do fine in tourney(as long as he doesnt face any mk's lol.

Marcbri · Jul 5, 2010

Without any lgl or planking rule pit is easily high tier, a random pit has started to plank here in spain ( no lgl rules as of now) and has beat some top peach and diddy players that used to **** him just by running the timer on them, later he got ***** by a random Mk, so pretty much what gallax said I guess xD

Besides planking game, I think Pit's ground game is kinda meh besides utilt and fsmash, Dsmash is also pretty fast and allows to not stale fsmash, the other tilts are sooo slow and Dash attack is really unsafe as well.
His air game is pretty good thought, bair, fair and uair are amazing moves, His only problem being he's vulnerable from below because his dair is not so great. This and a few reasons more make Mk one of his worst match-ups, and when you lose badly to MK you kinda become unviable for tourney, but he still can be really annoying in a lot of match-ups ( planking diddy and falco, scrooging D3, etc.)

Edit: About tourney results, I think we need to see someone bring pit to his full potential, both planking and arrow gimmicks and all that, I see some potential for this character but not many people use him.

Coffee™ · Jul 5, 2010

The lgl limit's his abilities considerably. It's pretty much like Marcbri and Gallax said though. His worst matchup is MK and considering he's the most popular character it's very unlikely you will see Pit players do well in tourneys. He has good/decent matchups with other high tier characters like Diddy, Falco, D3, Pikachu Marth and Snake but Mk will always hold him back.

MetalMusicMan · Jul 5, 2010

gallax said:
I think pit was being held back by the lgl tbh. As long as there is no lgl I believe pit will rise considerably on the list. Any pit that has the patience to plank will do fine in tourney

Gonna agree with this. Pit is a very solid character who has few matchups that he can't deal with.

He has great options for nearly every situation, and against most characters, has a strong recovery. He has a decent jab, grab, and ranged game, along with good combos. His kill-power is lacking, but many characters have the same problem and it doesn't hold them back.

I could definitely see pit rising a bit, he's very solid and one of the better character-choices available outside of the top-tiers. I would never consider him a "power character" or "top tier", though.

The Real Inferno · Jul 5, 2010

Pit is great. He's horribly underappreciated because of the current tournament environment. They just can't camp through the Meta Knight Army as it only seems to continue to grow in size, running players away from Pit in droves. Without a LGL, Pit is an incredibly viable character and without Meta Knight, I think he could easily find his way into top tier or a near top tier position (for reference sake, if A is top tier, consider him the first or second character of B tier). There are very few characters that dominate Pit, and when played correctly, he can generally run the timer out on anyone, most natably characters like Snake and Diddy Kong.

DEHF · Jul 6, 2010

Pit definitely deserves to be higher on the tier list.

Smash G 0 D · Jul 6, 2010

Pit is like Metaknight without the Marth plus arrows.

Pit just needs more people to play him.
Agree @ LGL limiting Pit tres hard.

Side note: is it sad I didn't know that you can charge Pit's arrows until recently?

Crow! · Jul 6, 2010

Facepalm @ Smash G 0 D. The fact that Pit can vary the time the arrow's going to be released is the biggest factor preventing Pit's arrows from being theoretically useless - Pit pulling out the bow and shooting is slow enough that you can powershield / dodge if you know they will be uncharged, but you cannot, at medium range or closer, react to the release of the arrows fast enough if the time of release is being varied.

Anyway, I keep hearing "Pit's really good" and "Pit has a terrible matchup vs Meta Knight." Sorry to say, but right now the tier list is an ordering of how well each character does against Meta Knight, and the tier list will stay that way until MK is gone, as that is basically the only thing that matters in the current tournament metagame.

Until Pit finds a way to lose to MKs only as often as do the high tiers, Pit's doomed to staying right where he is.

Shaya · Jul 6, 2010

Pit is an over rated character who has the majority of it's fans claim his supremacy from a friendly or "theory" basis only.

His tournament ability has time and time again come up short, and to think he has good match ups with the rest of high tier seems far-fetched.

I don't think you guys actually realise how much on a NEVER ENDING CYCLE has the BBR been ridiculed publicly because of how high pit was placed on the last tier list.

The other half of the BBR was utterly confused on how pit ended up so high, then they saw that certain bbr members *cough*R@vyn*cough* voted Pit the highest possible in every single voting phase.

I really don't see why someone can be like "pit would be good without mk" when a majority of the top 10 characters in the game have MK as their (most likely) most difficult match up.

1. Ice Climbers
2. Marth
3. Wario
4. Dedede
5. Pikachu
6. Olimar

Pit hype is propaganda to the extreme, and it doesn't help that a foreign country with no real means of communicating between us and them have a "good pit" (oh, but from what I can gather isn't really winning anymore; Japan is MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, ICS land now).

If pit does anything but go down next tier list, the BBR will be a humongous laughing stock.
I have to explain to the public regularly about Pit's stupidly overrated placement, yet all the individuals who voted him so high have never EVER stepped in to even defend the character they rate so highly.

It's the same thing over and over again, silent "pit +1" in every opportunity possible by the same people in the BBR.

Oh and when this thread is ready to be moved to the Pit forums, feel free censor the name of the biased BBR member which I have much chagrin for

Smash G 0 D · Jul 6, 2010

Crow! said:
Facepalm @ Smash G 0 D. The fact that Pit can vary the time the arrow's going to be released is the biggest factor preventing Pit's arrows from being theoretically useless - Pit pulling out the bow and shooting is slow enough that you can powershield / dodge if you know they will be uncharged, but you cannot, at medium range or closer, react to the release of the arrows fast enough if the time of release is being varied.

Anyway, I keep hearing "Pit's really good" and "Pit has a terrible matchup vs Meta Knight." Sorry to say, but right now the tier list is an ordering of how well each character does against Meta Knight, and the tier list will stay that way until MK is gone, as that is basically the only thing that matters in the current tournament metagame.

Until Pit finds a way to lose to MKs only as often as do the high tiers, Pit's doomed to staying right where he is.

What I meant by charge was that the damage increased, not that he can wait to shoot them. >__< I'm not THAT out of the [arrow] loop.

.
..
i couldn't resist

Affinity · Jul 6, 2010

Pit's super-underrated, mostly due to his large under-representation.

Not to say Japanese brawlers compare to top US players at all, but there has to be some reason why he is

was?

top tier over there.

DMG · Jul 6, 2010

Not impressed with Pit. Thought his planking was stronger. Meh.

With a LGL in play, this works for and against him. He can't time out people, others can't do it back to him (makes the MK matchup easier)

He has acceptable matchups with higher tiered characters not named MK. He's fine on both a conservative and liberal stage list. He's good at a lot of things, but not great at any single thing.

I personally think his placement is pretty good. I do think he is better than ZSS and TL, also better than Kirby and ROB no question. Comparatively, he doesn't get ***** by mk much harder than his peers do, besides maybe ZSS. DK, TL, G&W, ROB, Kirby, all of them have roughly similar MK troubles.

I would still have G&W over him, and Lucario/everyone else clearly over him. I don't see him dropping more than 1 spot period.

Coffee™ · Jul 6, 2010

Shaya said:
His tournament ability has time and time again come up short, and to think he has good match ups with the rest of high tier seems far-fetched.

How much people do you see playing Pit at local, let alone national tournaments? Obviously he won't have good tournament results if noone plays him.

The other half of the BBR was utterly confused on how pit ended up so high, then they saw that certain bbr members *cough*R@vyn*cough* voted Pit the highest possible in every single voting phase.

I didn't vote Pit the highest at every possible voting stage. I voted him accordingly to where I thought he should have been at all the times he was voted for. In addition to that my singular votes would not have placed him that high due to the type of system we used so don't bother calling me out like that.

I really don't see why someone can be like "pit would be good without mk" when a majority of the top 10 characters in the game have MK as their (most likely) most difficult match up.

1. Ice Climbers
2. Marth
3. Wario
4. Dedede
5. Pikachu
6. Olimar

You seem to forget that there can be varying difficulties amongst characters as far as matchups go. Pit vs MK is very bad. All of the characters you list here except Dedede have considerably better matchups with MK than Pit does.

I have to explain to the public regularly about Pit's stupidly overrated placement, yet all the individuals who voted him so high have never EVER stepped in to even defend the character they rate so highly.

I've posted in that thread multiple times before defending his position but all it generally leads to is a bunch of bad arguments so I've decided to stay away from it.

Oh and when this thread is ready to be moved to the Pit forums, feel free censor the name of the biased BBR member which I have much chagrin for

Biased? Have you read your posts? Sure I think the character is way better than he is given credit for, but honestly what experience do you have with the character to justify your claims that he so horrible?

Coffee™ · Jul 6, 2010

Sorry. Double posted.

Shaya · Jul 6, 2010

I don't think he's horrible.

I just don't think he's as "great" as people seem to exaggerate. Like I don't think he deserves a drop to low tier, don't get me wrong. But I don't think he was justified to obtain a +4 last tier list.

I've posted in that thread multiple times before defending his position but all it generally leads to is a bunch of bad arguments so I've decided to stay away from it.

Also I've probably read nearly every post in the current public tier list thread. I name searched for you and you do not have ONE post in there.

In early stages of the last tier list you were voting him as high as A tier. Do you still think he's an A tier character?

DMG · Jul 6, 2010

A tier? Oh goodness no.

Coffee™ · Jul 6, 2010

Shaya said:
Also I've probably read nearly every post in the current public tier list thread. I name searched for you and you do not have ONE post in there.

I haven't posted in this current tier list thread. I've posted in previous ones but the outcome has always been the same. I would rather not waste my time there.

In early stages of the last tier list you were voting him as high as A tier. Do you still think he's an A tier character?

Yes I do still think Pit is an A tier character. I think Pit should be at the bottom of A tier with both Pikachu and Olimar ahead of him, not necessarily in that order but I do think both of those characters are better than him.

Overswarm · Jul 6, 2010

Crow! said:
Anyway, I keep hearing "Pit's really good" and "Pit has a terrible matchup vs Meta Knight." Sorry to say, but right now the tier list is an ordering of how well each character does against Meta Knight, and the tier list will stay that way until MK is gone, as that is basically the only thing that matters in the current tournament metagame.

Until Pit finds a way to lose to MKs only as often as do the high tiers, Pit's doomed to staying right where he is.

BAM!.

</thread>

Pit isn't that great. His biggest boon is running forward and shielding an attack, then forward smashing. His bair is a great punisher if he gets a good read. His planking is sub-par, and doesn't really work.

But none of that matters, because Metaknight destroys him. That alone invalidates him. Mid tier at best. Maybe a cool unique secondary, but given his lack of overwhelming matches (as opposed to characters like Dedede), there's no reason to pick him up at all other than "I like Pit".

Crow! · Jul 6, 2010

Wow, this turned political, fast. I'll handle this like I handle all controversial stuff: Data time!

Let's take a look at how Pit compares to the character two slots below him on the current tier list, and two below that, etc. I stop at Sheik because I don't want to sort out the Sheik/SheikZelda/ZeldaSheik/Zelda thing.

As usual, the above chart uses Ankoku's scoring scheme (current as of the end of May, 2010), and shows how individual players of each character are performing in tournaments. This lets us separate character popularity from character goodness.

Notes on the characters I arbitrarily selected:
- ZSS is probably the best of these characters (Luigi, fittingly, is a bit of an oddball and is hard to analyze, though.)
- Peach is unusually popular at medium skill levels, but ROB has significantly more players showing up in top8's at least once.
- Luigi is mad unpopular, with FAR fewer mains total than any of the others. With only two players doing well with him, I can't really comment on how good he is - too little data. He might be much better than we're giving him credit for, or the top performers might be flukes.
- In terms of actual tournament performance, Pit is presently overrated in the tier list by a whopping ~8 slots.

That said, this is the tier list and not the tournament performance ranking list. But still, for those who want to pump up his spot on the tier list based on speculation on presently untapped potential, then you could do this by moving him down merely 4-6 spots; this would still be generous to him, placing him along with characters who are also presently outperforming him, just not by the absurd degree that his present "peers" do.

So, I revise my previous statement. Pit isn't staying where he is; he's moving DOWN.

DMG · Jul 6, 2010

Luigi's alright, just camp him and make him approach. Char with sliding shield, slow air mobility, and medium at best range = let him do the work lol. He has a little bit of ZSS Shielding Syndrome.

Shaya · Jul 6, 2010

Arr Crow, you are indeed, a loved fellow.

With this logic that has been known by most of the public for so long (and has been a major means of ridicule since the last tier list), perhaps we shall finally beat the evil pollution that is plaguing our planet.

But seriously, I don't want to disregard that Pit may have potential, but he is seriously over rated with his current tier position. And I would find it insulting to the mains of MANY MANY other characters to see one such as Pit (with no results / no break through(s) / no consistently agreed good match ups) to see this character undermine their work further.

I can personally attest that I've read just about every post in the current public tier list discussion.
And you know what the two biggest things that have been discussed?

1. PIT, WTF?!
2. ZELDA. LOL!?

And unlike "Zelda, LOL" which has been mixed compliments and complaints, a near complete and utter majority of public opinion on pit's tier list placement has been aggression, and complaints - many of which result in calling into question the credibility of the backroom.

Whilst it's expected that people are to complain, and it's also expected that as a whole we're meant to be "better" or "more knowledgeable", just about any individual character's placement in the last tier list I am able to explain with confidence. I am very proud of the creation of the last tier list. But I have failed to justify Pit publicly, and I feel it was the major flaw (which weighs on my "metaphorical" heart heavily) of the last tier list.

EdreesesPieces · Jul 6, 2010

Shaya said:
Pit is an over rated character who has the majority of it's fans claim his supremacy from a friendly or "theory" basis only.

His tournament ability has time and time again come up short, and to think he has good match ups with the rest of high tier seems far-fetched.

I don't think you guys actually realise how much on a NEVER ENDING CYCLE has the BBR been ridiculed publicly because of how high pit was placed on the last tier list.

The other half of the BBR was utterly confused on how pit ended up so high, then they saw that certain bbr members *cough*R@vyn*cough* voted Pit the highest possible in every single voting phase.

I really don't see why someone can be like "pit would be good without mk" when a majority of the top 10 characters in the game have MK as their (most likely) most difficult match up.

1. Ice Climbers
2. Marth
3. Wario
4. Dedede
5. Pikachu
6. Olimar

Pit hype is propaganda to the extreme, and it doesn't help that a foreign country with no real means of communicating between us and them have a "good pit" (oh, but from what I can gather isn't really winning anymore; Japan is MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth, ICS land now).

If pit does anything but go down next tier list, the BBR will be a humongous laughing stock.
I have to explain to the public regularly about Pit's stupidly overrated placement, yet all the individuals who voted him so high have never EVER stepped in to even defend the character they rate so highly.

It's the same thing over and over again, silent "pit +1" in every opportunity possible by the same people in the BBR.

Oh and when this thread is ready to be moved to the Pit forums, feel free censor the name of the biased BBR member which I have much chagrin for

I just want to say I love you. I agree with everything here. I feel Pit is overrated on potential alone. His tournaments results justify him about 4-5 spots below from where he is would be right for him. And 4-5 spots below would be AFTER we've given him a boost on potential. He's just not getting it done! He's one of those characters that seem great and we think it will work out, but in reality it doesn't. The LGL does hurt him though.

He's still a solid character but I consider him among the best of mid tier, at best.

I think you guys are boosting him too much on potential. Could I not make the argument that Ice climbers is by far the best character in the game based on potential? All he needs is 3 grabs a game to win every match. Based on potential alone. under the same argument, Ice Climbers is the best character in the game. But the fact is that somewhere in reality, it's too hard for IC to legitly get three grabs and perform the infinite without messing up on a consistent basis to be considered the best. It's the same deal for Pit. His moves seem like he's better, but in all reality, the combination of the moves and in today's tournament metagame he just can't seem to get it done. I agree with boosting a character one or two spots because of their potential, but he's been boosted a little too extremely for his.

IN short, I disagree with boosting characters across the whole tier list on potential. Yeah, you boost them up or down 1-3 spots on potential, but 8 slots as Crow's data shows? Utterly ridiculous.

And I agree with Crow and OS on his performance against MK. MK is pretty much the only one stopping Peach from being near the top of high tier IMO, but I don't even make the argument for her anywhere in high tier (mid tier is right for her) because of that fact. Pit should have to suffer the same fate because it is the accurate depiction of the characters in the current metagame.

Praxis · Jul 6, 2010

Thank you Shaya.

I've heard tons of people heralding the greatness of Pit, yet I've really seen very little actual arguments regarding his capabilities/frame data, nor have I seen any notable placements nor played a Pit that demonstrated anything spectacular of the character in itself as opposed to their own decision making process (and I used to play with Sagemoon pretty often and beat a few Pits down in Texas and SoCal at different points in time).

I'd also argue that Peach would be high tier without MK. Her matchups against Snake and Falco are only slightly bad, and she runs even with or beats everyone else in the top tier.

So what? MK's here and Peach is thus bad. Same for Pit. Sucks for him. Ban MK. xP

DEHF · Jul 6, 2010

Okay so Shaya's posts have convinced me that Pit isn't that good xD

Praxis · Jul 6, 2010

If we're allowed to rate characters based on theorycraft and their gimmicks, Peach is top tier because of Bonewalking, turnip pivot free-pulling, and the infinite she has on the entire cast that makes Diddy's single-naner-lock look easy. >_>

Pit for A tier, Peach for S tier!

Marc · Jul 6, 2010

I'd actually advocate a boost for Peach. Leon has proven she can take events as long as you have a secondary for MK and Falco and it's not like she's without success in the US either. Having a few bad matchups and even requiring a secondary for some doesn't automatically mean a character is bad. I think every character other than MK has at least one disadvantaged matchup and most are actually relevant too. It sucks for Pit that one of his happens to be MK, but this is only a major problem in an MK-infested scene. Even then I wonder how crippling it really is, considering no one in the western scenes uses Pit to his full potential. I'd like to remind you Pit was taking all Japanese events when we made the previous tier list, at least to our knowledge. I agree he doesn't do much in the US and Europe and we have overrated him, but people are being somewhat dramatic. Tournament results go a long way in backing up claims, but we are definitely "allowed" to give characters a minor boost based on potential. Like I said though, we have exaggerated it. I'd personally have him as the worst C tier with Peach overtaking him, effectively lowering him 5 places.

AllyKnight · Jul 6, 2010

updated 1st page post

OverLade · Jul 7, 2010

FUUUUUUU double post.

OverLade · Jul 7, 2010

Pit isn't the next huge character but I think MK being around completely limits any reason to play as him.

MK is more fun, has better matchups and recovery, plus he's Pit's worst matchup by far anyway.

I don't see him rising much if MK was banned even, though I think we would see a lot more success in tourney results from him.

EdreesesPieces · Jul 7, 2010

Marc said:
I'd actually advocate a boost for Peach. Leon has proven she can take events as long as you have a secondary for MK and Falco and it's not like she's without success in the US either. Having a few bad matchups and even requiring a secondary for some doesn't automatically mean a character is bad. I think every character other than MK has at least one disadvantaged matchup and most are actually relevant too. It sucks for Pit that one of his happens to be MK, but this is only a major problem in an MK-infested scene. Even then I wonder how crippling it really is, considering no one in the western scenes uses Pit to his full potential. I'd like to remind you Pit was taking all Japanese events when we made the previous tier list, at least to our knowledge. I agree he doesn't do much in the US and Europe and we have overrated him, but people are being somewhat dramatic. Tournament results go a long way in backing up claims, but we are definitely "allowed" to give characters a minor boost based on potential. Like I said though, we have exaggerated it. I'd personally have him as the worst C tier with Peach overtaking him, effectively lowering him 5 places.

You can win tournies with Ike, Sonic, Sheik, and Bowser if your secondaries are MK and Falco. The only characters who can't win tournies with secondaries MK and Falco are..well, none. Not a single character. If you were really good with Falcon, you could win tournies as long as you switched to MK when you faced MK and Falco when you faced Diddy, Falco or IC.

How well a character can do when they have secondaries is not representative of where they should be on the tier list. A tier list theoretically assumes you are using nothing but that character and decides how well that character can do in a tournament

Also, our tier list does not and is not supposed to represent Japan If it does, I need to completely change my opinion, because Peach never even cracks top 30 at any tournament in Japan. She's like low tier on their list. They have completely different rules. We can't go by their results, and if we do, we have to use ALL of them, not pick and choose when it's convenient.

DMG · Jul 7, 2010

Yeah it's like saying DK is viable if you pick up MK for the Dedede matchup. That may be true, but we are assessing the characters alone, against each other.

EdreesesPieces · Jul 7, 2010

Also where would you draw the line? I could say Ganon is really good if I use MK for the MK, Falco, Diddy, Rob, Gdubs, DDD, Snake, Pikachu, and IC matchups. That's only 9 matchups I use MK, and like 27 or whatever matchups I use Ganon in. Ganon must be pretty viable. Where would you even draw the line between what is a secondary and what is not?

Sorry but Peach by herself hasn't won anything but a few top 5 and top 7 placings at some big tournies. All her big accomplishments (top 3 at a regional) have come at the hands of necessary secondaries that took care of matchups or sets she would and lost and placed much lower without these secondaries.

Leon is one of the best if not the best Peach out there right now from his accomplishments, and a super good smasher, but it was his skill with multiple characters that won that regional. So nothing taken away from him.

Pierce7d · Jul 7, 2010

I would advocate a dropping of Pit about 4 spots.

Crow! · Jul 7, 2010

This discussion needs more talk about what Pit actually DOES. To that end...

Arrow loop combos: legit or gimmick only?

MetalMusicMan · Jul 7, 2010

Marc said:
I'd actually advocate a boost for Peach.

I also think Peach should rise. I think she's very under-rated.

Crow! said:
This discussion needs more talk about what Pit actually DOES. To that end...

Arrow loop combos: legit or gimmick only?

I've never seen any actual tournament-match usage of it being all that useful. I don't think it's a straight-up gimmick, but its uses are few and far between.

Espy Rose · Jul 7, 2010

Peach? Last I checked, the title mentioned something about Pit...

Anyways, Shaya pretty much further convinced me of Pit's overrated attributes. I personally just don't see Pit's doing well in tournament, with very few exceptions. Above that, he's just terrible versus Meta Knight, who pretty much makes the current metagame.

I expect Pit to fall several spots from his current level. He's just not as good as people make him out to be.

Coffee™ · Jul 7, 2010

I'm not apposed to him dropping a couple spots as well. He's a good and very solid character but as long as he doesn't have results to show for it there is no real point in placing him as high as he is.

MetalMusicMan · Jul 7, 2010

R@vyn said:
I'm not apposed to him dropping a couple spots as well. He's a good and very solid character but as long as he doesn't have results to show for it there is no real point in placing him as high as he is.

Just saying, I don't think we should rate solely based off of tournament results. If we did that, we would just take Ankoku's list and call it a tier list.

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