On the Approach

Ryos4 · Jul 8, 2010

Intro:
Hello and welcome again to another Ultimate Pit Guide improvement thread part 3. So far we have compiled a list of players and their play styles and list of Pit's edge game. Now its time to discuss something many players may have trouble doing properly. Approaching.

First the discussion of approaching with Pit in general. What can he do? Is it effective? I will then compile the information.

After the general information about Pit's approaches is discussed. The next step will be to do character specifics. As every character has different options , so some of Pit's approaching options may not work, some may work even better, or some different options may appear as well.

Soooo... Let's begin.

General Approaches:

SH Nair
SH Arrow
SH FF Fair
SH Dair
SH Glide/Glide Shift
FH Dair
Shield Sliding (Does this have a different name?)
Roll (Bad idea, but can work)
Walking outside of range/Dash Dancing
Angelic Dance/Pivot Boost
Wing Dash/Lung
SH Air Dodge

Character Specifics

Ryos4 · Jul 8, 2010

Reserved post for some reason or another.

So lets get on the possible approaches, even if they are may not be the best idea. Also if its possibly a bad approach, please make a note of it.

MysteriousSilver · Jul 8, 2010

Sliding Shield is awesome.

Use sparingly against grab-happy characters, DDD, ICs, Olimar, Falco, etc.

Fast falling Fair's is good for conditioning people to shield when you jump, but watchout they don't have the grab range to punish you for it.

Sometimes I walk back and forth just outside of their range, wait for an opening, and ftilt. Walking forward and waiting for a reaction is usually pretty good in general.

Honestly, I don't do a whole lot of approaching.

Katana_koden · Jul 8, 2010

Using wing dashing properly.

Well for mind games on the approach.
-Dash forward close towards them, Not tooooo close, but close enough to not get hit by a jab.
-Wing dash back, and buffer a ftilt, or go for the grab. Other options like pivot grabs, never worked. Wing dashing stops that.

If you read your opponent correctly, they usually, sidestep for grabs, block for ftilt, attack to punish approach. Ftilt is still punishable if blocked so don't spam it.

I need a list of moves that WoI negates attacks. So far it cancels Mk's dash attack. And ftilt punishes his tornado.

NiteCyper · Jul 9, 2010

Short-hop to glide. If you tele-graph, mix it up by diving before you reach them, cancelling with an attack into the ground, then I often shoot another arrow. The cancel via attack can catch people who like to perform a running up-smash as a glide-counter. If built-up dive-momentum increases glide-speed, it's worthy to perform the approach by starting the glide high, then coming in perpendicular to the ground.

Also, I'm not sure if it's so much an approach as it is simply a CQC tactic: ground WoI to auto-cancelled Nair or lunging Fair. A Bair from a ground WoI takes mad-micro. Another attack this brings up is floating along the ground using the WoI into a Bair (forward, backward, C-stick forward).

Finally, it may be necessary to honorarily mention the corollary to approaching: planking (edge-stalling, edge-camping). Pit rocks the ranged edge-game with ledge-hop to auto-cancelled arrows to ledge-grab, and short-range is a mix-up of that with low ledge-hop Uairs and arrows but ledge-hopping away from the ledge.

Ryos4 · Jul 9, 2010

K well i'll be off island for a few days so dont worry about the OP not updating. I will get on it after i get back. So lets get some good discussion on this going.

I think pivot boosting/angelic dance is a pretty good approach with like Ftilt or something.

Sometimes i just lazily fast walk into a sliding fsmash, which for some odd reason works. Maybe some people just dont see it coming, or just dont expect the second hit of Fsmash to reach as far as it does.

Also i know SH dair is another common approach.

Gadiel_VaStar · Jul 9, 2010

SH Dair to uptilt is pretty good. Fair»jab is decent. Side-B is also good.

dualseeker · Jul 9, 2010

I Recommend using SH nair for people who like to Spot Dodge a lot. It'll hit them if you time it correctly. Another good punisher for people who spam Spot Dodge is Angel Ring, but you have to space correctly so people don't end up behind you when you use it.

For approaching, I usually use SH Fair, and back away. I use it as a fake out and try to force a response from them. Then, I punish accordingly.

I also use SH Arrow from time to time. It helps to force a response, and sometimes leave them open if it hits. I also like to use SH Dair, since it has long range and can lead to a number of combos. Also, you can stay out of grab range if you back away after you hit the opponents shield. A good mindgame for the attack is to actually go behind your opponent, then if they use a grab, it'll be in the wrong direction and your opponent will be left open for attack. But you have to time SH Dair correctly or else you will have landing lag. I do not recommend you use SH Dair on any uneven stage or on stages that tilt, since it increases your chance of having landing lag.

I don't approach much, but I also agree with Katana Koden's method of approach.

Gadiel_VaStar · Jul 9, 2010

dualseeker said:
I also like to use SH Dair, since it has long range and can lead to a number of combos. Also, you can stay out of grab range if you back away after you hit the opponents shield. A good mindgame for the attack is to actually go behind your opponent, then if they use a grab, it'll be in the wrong direction and your opponent will be left open for attack.

It's player/character dependant. Dair crossover is not safe vs MK and characters with a good, quick back aerial.

I agree w/ the Fair back-away approach.

Ryos4 · Jul 12, 2010

Well i updated the OP. Is there anymore suggestions for approaching in general? Or should we move on to character specifics?

pitskeyblade · Jul 13, 2010

Character specific would definitely help get this discussion going. We can always add on if we come up with anything else.

MysteriousSilver · Jul 13, 2010

By the way, something I need to learn to do more often is cancel glide or glair the ground and go into a sliding grab/shield/etc.

I'm fairly certain this would work wonders as a mixup to plain ol' glide attack. If they anticipate a glair and shield, this would allow you to punish it and keep them guessing. You could also cancel just outside their range and punish their retaliation.

Ryos4 · Jul 13, 2010

Pit's glide is pretty good in terms of versatility. Its fast, moves up and down, 2 ways to cancel, and with the addition of glide shifting it can be pretty hard to predict as long as you start moving. You're pretty vulnerable if they choose to attack you while you are in transition from jump to glide.

Snopy · Jul 13, 2010

SHAD to Up-Tilt.

Ryos4 · Jul 13, 2010

what is SHAD?

Snopy · Jul 13, 2010

Ryos4 said:
what is SHAD?

Short-hopped-Air-dodge
Works really well against Olimar.

Ryos4 · Jul 13, 2010

Lets start with the popular characters since you probably run into them the most.

Meta: What works and doesn't work against him. If you want you can go through the list in the OP and rate using Good, Average, or Bad for each one. Also add others you may use.

dualseeker · Jul 13, 2010

Well, I think SH Dair or Nair would work on an MK. Since they might react to your approach by dashing at you. I'd say those two moves are about Average on an MK.

But I can't say much, I never really approach MK. He usually approaches me, even before I do.

pitskeyblade · Jul 13, 2010

Yeah, MK is a pretty fast character. Usually if I try an approach, he gets there before I can start an attack. I usually try to use arrows against him, but his spot dodge is practically made to avoid Pit's projectiles. Sometimes when I want to shake things up, I'll use my dash attack, but if MK sees that coming, it's nothing to spot dodge and react with a Dsmash. Against a dash-happy MK, a Dtilt is a good combo starter, but only if you time it so that you hit him before he hits you. MK seems to do all the approaching in this MU.

Ryos4 · Jul 14, 2010

That seems about right. Meta will most likely be constantly on the offense.

My thoughts on what we have so far.
* SH Nair: Average
* SH Arrow: Average/Bad (Hes so short)
* SH FF Fair: Average/Bad (He can out range you and hes faster)
* SH Dair: Average (Nice coverage but watch out for pretty much everything Meta can do)
* SH Glide/Glide Shift: Average (Long range and can be canceled and linked to grabs, and jabs)
* FH Dair: Bad (I dont think you want to be above Meta for a long time)
* Shield Sliding: Average/Bad (If you can bait one of Metas Laggy moves, which arn't all that laggy)
* Roll: Bad (Rolling is always bad, especially against fast people)
* Walking outside of range/Dash Dancing: Average (Might be able to bait something)
* Angelic Dance/Pivot Boost: Average/Bad (May work with Ftilts long range, though if you miss you get punished badly)
* Wing Dash/Lung: Bad (I don't think you want to risk being helpless if he counters you)
* SH Air Dodge: Average (Can be good but you don't really want to be that close to Meta anyway)

pitskeyblade · Jul 14, 2010

^ So basically, all of our approaching options are average/bad. I guess we could agree that approaching in this particular matchup is probably gonna be a lose/lose situation. I think that the best "approach" for MK is to camp our ***es off and wait for him to make some punishable mistakes. Which really sucks.

dualseeker · Jul 14, 2010

^

I agree. If we were talking about the MU, I'd doubt that Pit players would be suggesting how to approach him. Rather, how we would be able to punish his moves. Since MetaKnight does most of the approaching in most of his Match Ups, I don't think we'll be able to get much out of discussing how to approach him. What's more effective, and will generate more conversation, is how to punish his approaches.

Ryos4 · Jul 14, 2010

Should that be on the same thread or should that be a different thread? That's not really approaching, that and punishing would probably have to be organized by what you can punish and what you punish with.

dualseeker · Jul 14, 2010

Ryos4 said:
Should that be on the same thread or should that be a different thread? That's not really approaching, that and punishing would probably have to be organized by what you can punish and what you punish with.

I think how to punish should be saved for actual Match Up discussion. Or, if you ever create a thread on how to react to approaches, it should be put there. I know it's not approaching, but I don't think people know too much about approaching MK since he usually approaches first.

Ryos4 · Jul 14, 2010

Well lets go to a campy character that is still common. SNAKE.

I think most of Pits aerial approaches are a bad idea against Snake just because of his Utilt.

link2702 · Jul 14, 2010

any and all approaches are bad against snake when you are pit, cuz you're playing the match wrong.

pit CAN outcamp snake, and ruin one of his strongest abilities; his nade game, you should ALWAYS be forcing the snake to come to you, not going to him.

Ryos4 · Jul 14, 2010

And we are back to what you should do instead of exploring what you can do. If you just automatically go to, Pit can out camp this guy, those posts would be pointless in this thread. Those should go into the match up thread.

Anyway i also think that this might be one of the few characters Pit can roll behind or airdodge behind and Snake wouldn't have much he could do if he doesn't predict it. Snake doesn't really have any good out of shield options for behind him aside from his grenades.

dualseeker · Jul 15, 2010

Snake doesn't have any good Out Of Shield options? I thought his Up Tilt was a great Out Of Shield option.

Also, it's not a good idea to approach because his Ftilt seriously outranges almost all of our attacks.

EDIT: YES!!!!!!

Post number 333!!!!!!!!!!!!! I'll be keeping this godly post number for a while ^__^.

QUIVO · Jul 15, 2010

wtf? close this thread. you should never approach. **** scrubz

Katana_koden · Jul 15, 2010

If in meta knight case
Wingdash his possible dash attack
Ftilt his tornado
FH Dair is actually good to me especially if he is still eager to chase you. You can aerial evade FF and punish his jump attacks.
He's not super, up close so SH aerial dodges into him to utilt usually work and punishes if reacts more than just shielding.

Off stage I follow and prevent his glide with Bair since it clashes or wins if placed properly.
That or MS gimp.

Meta approach most of the time, campy ftilt walking or running. Just out run his agro or switch up.

Ryos4 · Jul 15, 2010

dualseeker said:
Snake doesn't have any good Out Of Shield options? I thought his Up Tilt was a great Out Of Shield option.

Also, it's not a good idea to approach because his Ftilt seriously outranges almost all of our attacks.

Doesn't hit if your standing behind him. Only has really good range in front of him. Also you agreed to the whole approaching thread to explore approaching ideas, and now you're saying not to approach. lol.

QUIVO said:
wtf? close this thread. you should never approach. **** scrubz

Statements like that are what keep players from growing. People use to say never dash attack cause it laggy at the end or never use Ftilt. And yet later Pits found them to be useful.

QUIVO · Jul 15, 2010

Yea, but comments like that are true.

Play gay, plank that **** like your life depended on it

Katana_koden · Jul 15, 2010

Approach you have an opening.
-When you have the advantage after hitstun.
-when you have no other option but SH-AD > Utilt, other approach options
-advantage offstage.

Don't when they are defending.
-waiting.
-walking away.
-ledge hanging extensively =/ maybe character specific.

these are assumptions.

I'm going to change my play style again where my opponents hated that I ran away too much. But not as far as across the screen. Just out their dash range.
Leads to alot of frustration, and mindless approaches.
May bait arrow rolls easier.
Might work since pit is quite fast on land and air.

Tikun · Jul 15, 2010

Short Hop air dodge.
Really helpfull for spammers.
Falco, Pit, Snake ...

dualseeker · Jul 15, 2010

Ryos4 said:
Doesn't hit if your standing behind him. Only has really good range in front of him. Also you agreed to the whole approaching thread to explore approaching ideas, and now you're saying not to approach. lol.

If someone has a good way to approach Snake, I would be open for discussion. Maybe I shouldn't have said "Don't approach Snake", but it's just that I've been punished harshly for approaching first. I can't really contribute to a discussion on approaching Snake because I have no idea what would be a good approach method. Maybe SH Arrow would work, but he might be able to punish us for that with his DACUS.

Didn't Mysterious Silver say that Dashing>Mirror Shield worked well? Maybe it would work against Snake...

goodbye godly post number 333....

MysteriousSilver · Jul 15, 2010

I meant regular shield.

Mirror would be dangerous... But hilarious if you actually manage to reflect something. I'd say never do it except for lulz.

Sliding shield is great against Snake so long as he's not waiting to grab you. If we slide inside his tilt range, just wait for the cooldown and pop him one in the face.

Katana_koden · Jul 15, 2010

pivot grab it.
wing dash his DACUS.
Alot of pits strategies work but are easily predicted to get punished by simple attacks. Its like, if it worked once, don't look forward to it always working even a 2nd time till after a while.

pitskeyblade · Jul 15, 2010

For Snake, forward throw into dash attack. Dtilt to start combos. Grab him out of his DACUS. Fair works unless they shield grab. SH Nair is good against a spot dodge-happy Snake.

QUIVO · Jul 15, 2010

I don't know anything about snake, but can he pull out a nade in between the fthrow and dash attack?

Katana_koden · Jul 15, 2010

It depends on the damage, Fthrow to dash attack is a true combo.

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