Match Up Export: Captain Fabulous

Sage JoWii · Jul 9, 2010

Overview: Pink costume or go home. Captain Falcon is back from making hilarious youtube vids and slapping hoes. His moves may be lacking but his ego is still there as well as his awesomeness.

Kirby’s Pros and Cons:

+ Superior airgame
+ Superior offstage game
+ Crouch avoid large amnts of CF's attacks
+ Superior priority
- Lightweight?

Captain Falcon's Pros and Cons:

+ Good Uair, UTilt and Bair
+ Good jab
+ Wears pink
- High Endlag on moves
- Gets raep'd offstage
- No solid approach
- Wears pink

Watch out for:
Jab to grab – Without proper DI you'll get grabbed when jabbed lol.

Reverse-Falcon Punch – If you're in a match against a Falcon, chances are it's a lulz match anyways so don't be dumb and rush in thinking you can grab him out of it.

How to win:
BAir – Stay defensive to completely shutdown Falcon

Gimp – Inhale break>footstool, or just continue to beat his *** while he's offstage.

Crouch – Crouch avoids a lot but with how bad this MU is, it's not entirely necessary.

Spit out or Swallow?
Does it matter? Falcon punch offstage and return w/ your extra jumps or inhale break>footstool.

Stages (in order of priority):
RC – Good Kirby stage; Falcon's 'okay' recovery is laughable on this stage.
PTAD – No edges means his UpB to get back on stage will get him destroyed.
Anywhere – It's not really important.
FD – Just to be a jerk don't let him have open field.

Synopsis:
Reading this summary makes you realize just how bad CF is against Kirby. If it isn't tournament you should counterpick to Captain Falcon so you can have a manly match.

Lord Viper · Jul 10, 2010

★ Real man wear pink, lol. Nothing to worry, Captain Falcon is one of Kirby's easiest match up's to deal with. It's a shame that all Kirby has to do is either stay airborne and prevent Captain Falcon from doing the same, grab strings to build up damage, or even U-tilt strings > gimp. Captain Falcon has an ok juggling with U-Air, but nothing too amazing. His noticeable kill moves, (that can kill around low 100's) are F-Smash, D-Smash, and F-Air, lucky kill move is Falcon Punch. XD ♛

★ That being said, the odds of you playing against Captain Falcon is minor in tournaments, but major in friendlies. ♛

Triple R · Jul 10, 2010

one word: crouch

Zatchiel · Jul 11, 2010

Crouch wont save you from Falcon Utilt or even Ftilt if the Falcon uses it. >_>
But Kirby is a pretty tough MU for Falcon, but we have our ups:
We can Jab the hell out of Kirby for an easy Grab if they have poor DI.

If you're above Falcon, expect to get juggled by the **** we call Uair.

Don't expect Falcon Punch or Raptor Boost a lot in tourney, they're beyond horrid(You get hit by punch, no johns lmao.)

You can crouch under basically everything Falcon has(Even Dsmash's hitbox will miss.)

But meh, wait for the other Falcons.

Darky-Sama · Jul 11, 2010

Although the logic I've seen in the first few posts is somewhat... uhhh... incorrect, I can agree that this is one of Kirby's easier match-ups.

Kirby can abuse Captain Falcon's fastfall properties rather harshly and get an immediate 0 ->50%+ lead with a few simple movestrings. The sad thing is, most of them are unavoidable for Falcon, even with proper DI. Which can make the match-up difficult for Falcon, but he still has quite a few options that can make it difficult for Kirby to pressure him.

As Lucas Perfected mentioned, we have our Uair and Utilt, which poses as two of the largest threats for Kirby approaching us from the air. Although Kirby's airgame is amazing in comparison to most, Falcon generally revolves around SH aerial pressure until he's able to get the opponents in the airspace above him. His Uair outranges majority of the options that a character would normally have to hit people below them, so it's a good thing to keep that in mind against a decent player that knows their timing.

Much like Kirby -> Falcon, Falcon can short hop Bair pressure Kirby while keeping at a safe distance so he won't get punished. Although, being a floaty character, Kirby doesn't have the same form of pressure Falcon does. Instead, he has multiple jumps and the airtime to space himself away.

Overall, I would give this match-up a 35:65 in Kirby's favor.
It's rare and silly, I can agree with you all on that much.

lordhelmet · Jul 13, 2010

40-60 Kirby

I'm busy atm, friend's house when I come home I'll post.

Zeallyx · Jul 16, 2010

60-40 Kirby's advantage.

Falcon gets *****. Especially at lower percentages.

But our speed and agility (plus Uair/Bair/Utilt) nets us some chance of dealing damage/taking stocks.

But yeah, this matchup sucks for falcon.

Naisora · Jul 18, 2010

Yeah, it does seem Kirby has the ups in this matchup.

Lord Viper · Jul 26, 2010

★ I don't know, this match up seems to be too simple for Kirby to be a 60/40 ratio. I'll go with at least 70/30, but at most around 65/35, or a large advantage or slight large advantage as some may say. Captain Falcon's damage will get for 0% to 30%+ by just U-Tilt > B-Air and is vulnerable to string grabs. Not his worst match up, but still is pretty bad for him. ♛

Starwarrior27 · Jul 26, 2010

Okay, so it does seem clear that Kirby has the advantage in this matchup, but it seems to vary as to how much of an advantage Kirby has over Captain Falcon. While Captain Falcon is a great deal faster than Kirby, he completely losed priority battles and has to rely primarily on his higher priority (but also defensive), Uair, U-tilt, and Jab. The first two of these moves can hold Kirby off from frontal approaches, and, if timed correctly, Captain Falcon's U-tilt can stop Kirby from approaching from above. However, if Captain Falcon misses either of the first two attacks, the ending lag can be easily punishable for Kirby. Of course, none of this applies to Captain Falcon's jab, but the jab is usually only good for clashes.

Otherwise, Kirby wins battles of priority, utilizing combos, and taking advantage of poor recoveries (in which Captain Falcon does not truly suffer, but against a Kirby, the weakness is amplified by gimps). All of these matches make for a straightforward match for Kirby, but Kirby does NOT have an advantage simply because of his size. For one, Captain Falcon's D-tilt has a larger range than that of Kirby's and can combo into an Uair. Kirby has a large range on his D-tilt, but it is not laughably large.

With respect to stages, Kirby and Captain Falcon are fairly equal. Platforms do not really bother each of them too much, and neither of them really have projectiles, making bigger stages no better than smaller stages. However, a Captain Falcon might like Norfair and Brinstar more than Kirby because it nullifies Kirby's ability to gimp Captain Falcon easily. Overall, neither character really has an advantage over the other in stage selection.

If anything, the matchup appears to be more than slightly slanted in Kirby's favor. As soon as Kirby gets Captain Falcon into a combo, 30% can be dealt in seconds, not to mention that Captain Falcon almost always loses priority battles. Altogether, it would be reasonable to propose that the matchup is 35:65, Kirby's favor.

Kewkky · Jul 28, 2010

Large advantage for Kirby. All we need to do is tilt, shieldgrab, and bair. Our strategy in this matchup is pretty straightforward, Falcon doesn't have anything that threatens us, but we threaten him everywhere and we can kill him easily as well... Not to mention dair>footstool edgeguards put an end to him!

Sage JoWii · Aug 5, 2010

Alright so this thread doesn't seem to be going anywhere but idk if that's from inactivity on either characters part of if it's such a moot point to discuss this MU because we already know the bottom line. I'm going to scrounge up a pseudo-summary and if anyone wants to make changes or edit it, just let me know and you can have free reigns lol.

Tiersie · Aug 13, 2010

I've played againt R ebaz some time ago aswell as other good falcons and I was pretty sure that their jabs did not hit me properly. R ebaz had a lot of trouble with grabbing me and hitting jabs on me. The only thing we have to watch out for is uair. Utilt is slow and dtilt has pretty much no use since we will either be grabbing or outprioritizing while we're on the ground. I don't know about bairs, but it seems logical to me that Falcon would use it as a kill move since fsmash goes over us and dsmash is punished easily.

70-30.

Megatron1 · Sep 12, 2010

Lightweight is good and bad. Being light means easy KOs against you, but you won't get comboed easily. Heavys are subjected to damage racking, as they have a harder time escaping combos.

lordhelmet · Sep 23, 2010

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Randomly saw this, I posted here but never said my reasoning.

Again, I personally feel this MU is 40-60. I'd accept 35-65 but whoever said 30-70 made me roflmao.

The main thing that makes this MU playable for Falcon is that we aren't forced to approach - since Falcon is surprisingly good at punishing approaches with uair and utilt. As far as Falcon approaching goes, I've never had a hard time approaching Kirby. Dash->Shield or RAR'd->Bair work well.

I'd say on average, I personally take about 30% from a 0% combo, but maybe that's because I haven't figured out how to escape it yet. Do you guys have frame data on your crouch, or is that just a dumb question? Crouch is certainly a pain (and the only reason I would consider 35-65) but it doesn't "shut us down". CC is kind of annoying because our jab game doesn't work that great on small targets, and you also have a frame 3 jab and fast tilts. This is somewhat balanced by the fact that we outrange you considerably (utilt/uair) but ground game still goes to Kirby obviously.

We both juggle each other well, after glancing at your frame data I would say Falcon beats Kirby as far as juggling. Kirby may have multiple jumps but Falcon's ability to fastfall very fast can keep floaty Kirby in the air well, not to mention we have the 5th best air speed and you have what? 5th worst? The only aerial that really ***** Falcon is bair. As far as gimping goes, Kirby can obviously gimp us but not reliably because our up-b is a grab, most people think gimping Falcon is easy as pie but I honestly don't get gimped much. Getting lazy now, air game goes to Kirby but not by a large margin.

Bad on paper, not too bad in practice. 40-60 or 35-65.

Kewkky · Sep 23, 2010

But lordhelmet, it IS bad in practice. I could bet real life money, the green papers that have monetary value, that unless the CF is NOTICEABLY higher leveled than me and has more experience in the MU, that I will NEVER lose to a CF. That's how sure i am about the large advantage ratio.

Ratios aren't really good either... I mean, can you tell me the difference between 70:30, 75:25, 80:20, 85:25, 90:10, and 95:5?

lordhelmet · Sep 23, 2010

Kewkky said:
But lordhelmet, it IS bad in practice. I could bet real life money, the green papers that have monetary value, that unless the CF is NOTICEABLY higher leveled than me and has more experience in the MU, that I will NEVER lose to a CF. That's how sure i am about the large advantage ratio.

Thanks for backing up your information. Yes the MU is bad (compared to viable characters), but you're certainly not MK or anyone that gives us a 30-70 ratio.

My 2 cents.

Edit: Quoted you too quickly, missed your edit lol. Falcon Boards use Praxis' MU definition, as should everyone and that's where I got that btw. By Praxis' definition, anything past 30-70 is completely unwinnable at a competitive standpoint. None of Falcon's MUs are that bad other than maybe MK or Olimar.

Darky-Sama · Sep 23, 2010

Kirby does have a huge advantage over Falcon and I would consider it 30:70, but not for the same reasons stated. Personally, I see it being more 35:65, but that's just me. Unless the Falcon knows how to play smart and has a considerably large amount of match-up experience against Kirby, I agree; I don't see him coming anywhere close to winning in this match-up.

Kewkky · Sep 23, 2010

Man, I thought Praxis was smart enough to write what each ratio would mean. if that's what praxis said, then how do we differentiate between 65:35, 70:30, and 75:25/80:20/85:15/90:10/95:5?

From how you say Praxis ordered it, the only viable numbers to use for MU ratios are 70:30 <=> 30:70, when there are actually ratios that follow up past that. How can you tell my ratio is too much, if the ratios you decide to abide by are limited, have definitions that force them to be limited, and exclude other larger ratios that should be used as well?

That is something the one who directs this MU project has kept in mind. To fix this, he decided to simply ask for phrases, and not ratios. We order things as large advantage/advantage/even/disadvantage/large disadvantage (unwinnable or unloseable don't even count here)... So, given the way we do MUs in the Kirby boards, would you agree that the matchup is a large advantage for Kirby?

lordhelmet · Sep 23, 2010

Large Advantage is fine with me.

The way you guys do it is rather... vague. What exactly does a "Large Advantage" mean? If you had to give a ratio for an MU chart what would a "Large Advantage" be?

*shrug* again just my 2 cents. Large Advantage / 35-65.

Kewkky · Sep 23, 2010

A "large advantage in Kirby's favor" would be that Kirby shouldn't be losing this if it were two people of the same skill level. Note that I said 'shouldn't be losing this', shouldn't being the key word. A loss can still happen, but the chances of it happening are low enough so that we can call this MU easy. It also applies to "unwinnable" MUs, since they're "easy" MU's.

To not just keep it as vague, we do MU synopsis for every MU we discuss. When you open the synopsis keeping the conclusion in mind (example, go to the Falcon MU knowing that it's listed as "large advantage" for us), you should be finding yourself reading a write-up that details how to win, and that you have room for lots of errors and still have the match be in your favor.

Really, the goal of our MU projects has been to make it so that newcomer Kirbies can learn what they should be doing against other characters, our ratios aren't priority at all. It really is just a voting process we all do and agree on, and we're always too proud to list a ratio past 70:30/30:70, so they are never right. Even against MK, we agree that planking is unbeatable, but no character dares change the ratio to 0:100, they decide to ignore that one thing that makes it unwinnable and "fix" the ratio to a metagame that's not suppose to be the best. Same as with Ness/Lucas vs Marth... So, it's not really that far-out thinking about listing them with phrases rather than numbers.

PS: For some reason, i think I sound angry or something. Don't take it that way!

Darky-Sama · Sep 23, 2010

I don't mind if you guys want to put it at 30:70. Percentages really don't matter all that much as long as the knowledge is known. Personally, the way I see it is...

100:0 - 80:20 = Should always win.
75:25 - 65:35 = Large advantage.
60:40 - 55:45 = Slight advantage.
50:50 = Even match-up.
45:55 - 40:60 = Slight disadvantage.
35:65 - 25:75 = Large disadvantage.
20:80 - 0:100 = Almost impossible.

30:70/35:65 are both a large disadvantage.
That's what Kirby/Falcon should categorize under.

Sage JoWii · Sep 23, 2010

Man I'm so happy this is all working out. >_> Oh wait....that's how it's always been since I started this.

Lol.

Excellent discussions though.

lordhelmet · Oct 12, 2010

"RC – Good Kirby stage; Falcon's 'okay' recovery is laughable on this stage."

This is false FYI. RC is one of Falcon's better stages, all you need on RC to do well is quick air speed and a good up air.

I'd much sooner go to RC against Kirby than JJ.

Darky-Sama · Oct 12, 2010

I do have to agree with Helmet there, Falcon's definitely not bad in the match-up on Rainbow Cruise. He actually has an easy time dealing with his match-ups on that stage because characters are forced to keep airborne through most of the match. That's really all Falcon needs to give him an advantage in any match-up.

Not even MK is an exception to this.

Kewkky · Oct 12, 2010

I agree that RC isn't the best place to take CF to, you guys are right. I think that the best place to take Falcon as Kirby, is PTAD or other ledge-less stages... But me being me, I'll just go ahead and say platformed stages like BF because it's, in my opinion, one of Kirby's best stage setups, and he can chain his combos/strings for longer due to the platforms.

... But this is still one of Kirby's easiest MUs. Shieldgrabs, utilts and bairs takes care of any danger, the only height we have to take to shut down the majority of Falcon's options is a short-hop to space a bair (retreating or not).

Darky-Sama · Oct 12, 2010

Not going to deny that. Kirby shouldn't have much difficult against Falcon if he plays like he's suppose to. I wouldn't recommend taking Falcon to any shifty counterpicks that you'll have more difficulty controlling the him than normal.

Avoid Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. Japes would probably be your best stage because Kirby has a lot of quick kill tactics that Falcon can't do much about. Neutral+B into the river, Falcon has trouble recovering since his only useful recovery on this stage is up+b, which is almost strictly vertical in terms move distance. Kirby doesn't have trouble here due to multiple jumps.

Battlefield is one of Falcons best neutrals because his fastfalling and auto canceling lets him platform juggle and set characters up into knees. But if you're a Kirby that prefers platforms over playing on non-platformed stages, that's one of your best choices, imo.

Kewkky · Oct 12, 2010

Darky-Sama said:
Not going to deny that. Kirby shouldn't have much difficult against Falcon if he plays like he's suppose to. I wouldn't recommend taking Falcon to any shifty counterpicks that you'll have more difficulty controlling the him than normal.

Avoid Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. Japes would probably be your best stage because Kirby has a lot of quick kill tactics that Falcon can't do much about. Neutral+B into the river, Falcon has trouble recovering since his only useful recovery on this stage is up+b, which is almost strictly vertical in terms move distance. Kirby doesn't have trouble here due to multiple jumps.

Battlefield is one of Falcons best neutrals because his fastfalling and auto canceling lets him platform juggle and set characters up into knees. But if you're a Kirby that prefers platforms over playing on non-platformed stages, that's one of your best choices, imo.

Only bad thing about Japes, like PT:AD, is that most tourneys probably won't have em on. Quite sad really.

Darky-Sama · Oct 12, 2010

Same goes for Norfair. I'm not too surprised that they're taken off the list so frequently, though.

Kirby should fair pretty well on Halberd and Frigate in this match-up, possibly Lylat as well. Frigate is actually one of my best stages as Falcon, but there's quite a few stage factors that could place Falcon at a disadvantage in portions of the stage.

lordhelmet · Oct 12, 2010

Falcon should just be taking Kirby to any neutral lol, I can't think of a good CP.

I forgot to mention we have grab release -> uair on Kirby. You'd be surprised how useful that is.

Sage JoWii · Oct 13, 2010

Finally some discussion.

I'd be happy to update the summary after all this discussion.

Personally, I find Halberd to be the best stage against CF when I recently played against one. Sharking is da bess. Transforming stage can leave behind CF and make it easier to gimp.

lordhelmet · Oct 13, 2010

JoWiiCIDE said:
Personally, I find Halberd to be the best stage against CF when I recently played against one. Sharking is da bess. Transforming stage can leave behind CF and make it easier to gimp.

I'm not too sure about Halberd being more beneficial for Kirby.

I don't think I've ever been gimped because of the stage transforming lol. Maybe the Falcon you were playing was bad on Halberd?

Last time I checked, Kirby's vertical KO options weren't too great. Combine that with Falcon's amazing fastfalling and launch resistance, usmash and uair KOs will be rare.

I'm not saying Falcon's are much better but with our usmash disjoint we can score some good KOs - especially with a low ceiling and with Kirby's light weight. On top of that if we're coming back with a fresh stock and we get a grab: Grab Release -> Fresh Uair will = a stock at around 120% on Halberd I believe.

Kirby's sharking options are obviously better than Falcons, but CF can uair and up-b shark and get away with it, usually while under ledge pressure. Not to mention Kirby isn't particularly safe when sharking, Falcon can SH Raptor Boost spike without taking much risk on platform stages like Halberd and Delfino.

Sage JoWii · Oct 13, 2010

I swear, I love this Lordhelmet guy.

Ok, so what stage other than JJ, which isn't universally available, are good for CF or Kirby.

lordhelmet · Oct 13, 2010

Kirby's rapid jab can wall lock right? At least on PS1's rock formation?? Or am I stupid?

I'm no Kirby expert, but the only stage he completely ***** us on is Jungle Japes. If I were playing a Falcon as Kirby I'd take him to PS1 or FD. On FD if you gimp us, we just lost a huge chunk of momentum - being that normally we live on large stages to ridiculous % the gimp hurts that much more. On PS1 the formations put Falcon into really weird spots, formations that Kirby has no problems with to my knowledge. PS1's ledge is also really awkward for Falcon and makes it easier to edgeguard us.

I normally CP Kirby to Castle Siege or Yoshi's Island. I've actually had trouble with CS' transformations and getting gimped (funny that you mentioned Halberd's transformation gimping). But that's not really a problem seeing that we cannot get gimped during the walkoff stages, so that kinda balances itself out. Grab Release -> Uair in itself makes the walkoff stages pretty good for us against Kirby. YI is just a personal favorite for me. The ghost platforms can save us from getting gimped and really don't help Kirby at all. The tilted ground also makes Kirby's ground combos a bit easier to get around - in my experiences.

Kewkky · Oct 13, 2010

Kirby doesn't kill upwards with either usmash or uair. Kirby kills upwards with uthrow and dsmash, and both are extremely reliable. In fact, recently I've found myself using dsmash more than fsmash, if anything! Uthrow works perfectly because while we play the matchup just to rack up damage, grabbing whenever and bairing/tilting for damage, once your % goes past a certain point, one grab will mean a uthrow, which leads to an inevitable KO... Dsmash is just for frametraps. So, if our goal is to kill upwards, we're more than capable of doing so, and we don't have to fish for a KO move to do so, since the uthrow will happen while we rack damage.

Having a killing throw is great! If we had a reliable projectile, kirby would be a very powerful character, since his ONLY weaknesses are attacks that aren't jointed to the hurtbox (includes projectiles, items, and disjointed attacks).

lordhelmet · Oct 13, 2010

Kewkky said:
Kirby doesn't kill upwards with either usmash or uair. Kirby kills upwards with uthrow and dsmash, and both are extremely reliable. In fact, recently I've found myself using dsmash more than fsmash, if anything! Uthrow works perfectly because while we play the matchup just to rack up damage, grabbing whenever and bairing/tilting for damage, once your % goes past a certain point, one grab will mean a uthrow, which leads to an inevitable KO... Dsmash is just for frametraps. So, if our goal is to kill upwards, we're more than capable of doing so, and we don't have to fish for a KO move to do so, since the uthrow will happen while we rack damage.

Oh my bad.

I don't remember ever getting killed by Kirby's dmash lol. Probably because its sweetspot hitbox is rather short-ranged. Being that close to Falcon is asking to get jabbed. Not disagreeing with you though, how powerful is it when compared to fsmash?

I totally forgot about uthrow. From personal experience Kirbys always underestimate Falcon's knockback resistance and as a result stale it too much to KO with it. I can't say enough how long Falcon survives.

Sage JoWii · Oct 14, 2010

I personally disagree w/ Kewkky.

DSmash against CFalcon isn't bad, but it isn't your best option.

Upsmash DOES kill and it's underrated. W/ that said FSmash is the best kill move overall w/ BAir following it. Upthrow on PS1 rock transformation is godly though so he's got a point (but killing throw is a strong expression).

Yes PS1 is imo Kirby's BEST starter/CP. Yes we do have a jab infinite against the wall of the rock transformation. Also against the underside of the tree on the fire transformation. Also on the windmill Kirby has a suicide AND stage spike throw as well as it being his best area to combo.

Triple R · Oct 14, 2010

Yeah, I probably kill with usmash and dsmash about the same amount. Kirby not killing upward with usmash is kinda a funny idea. You'd be surprised at how useful of a smash it can be. Reading a trip roll into usmash has gotten me my fair share of kills.

As far as the falcon matchup, stay below him and you should be good most times. I personally like platforms, but stages without platforms might help in this matchup. Stages with wide blast zones are probably good too so you can gimp falcon instead of outright killing him.

Tiersie · Oct 14, 2010

Kirby's usmash is awesome because it uses a duck animation as startup, meaning you can actually avoid grabs and higher up moves like *cough* falcon's jab *cough* and kill in return. I don't know how this is wih dsmash but as kewkk said I use dsmash more in a frametrap sense, which isn't necessarily to kill.

Darky-Sama · Oct 14, 2010

I still don't believe Kirby should be trying to kill Falcon upward, opposed to horizontally. Kirby should be killing Falcon at a pretty decent percent with a forward smash. I don't think I've been KO'd by Kirby's upsmash anywhere below 130% before, but I DI weird with Falcon. lol.

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