Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Zero Suit Samus

MaskedAvnger · Jul 11, 2010

Zero Suit Samus

Ok, moving right along.

Your thoughts on ZSS here.

#HBC | Dark Horse · Jul 11, 2010

No zair, as plasma whip outranges it.

MaskedAvnger · Jul 11, 2010

Ok, I've played against a couple ZSS players recently, one is a ZSS main and one is picking her up as a secondary.

ZSS is a very momentum based character. It's hard to get started, but if she can manage to get you juggled, the damage will rack up quickly and it is kind of hard to escape.

But, as many people say, Shield > ZSS. The problem this poses is that in most matchups, it is better for toonlink to stay airborne.

You wanna watch out for the gun attack, all of the whip attacks, and dsmash.

Ban Battlefield, maybe Norfair? Seems like it would be a good stage for her.

CP Frigate, Smashville, Halberd, RC, any of them good stages.

Side-B outranges zair. It's annoying.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 12, 2010

ZSS' one-frame jab completes on Toon Link, giving ZSS a 1-frame GTFO option at close range. This is a huge problem for Toon Link especially given that ZSS is hard to camp at mid-range because of side-b.

solecalibur · Jul 12, 2010

MaskedAvnger said:
But, as many people say, Shield > ZSS. The problem this poses is that in most matchups, it is better for toonlink to stay airborne.

That was Zss Theory craft "problem" 4 or 5 months ago
Once you start learning how to PS 5 frame moves then I guess where out of luck but I dont see Zss D-smashing much in this MU as we will have to approach in most situations

ZSS is good on RC and Halberd , (other zss love RC just cp me to it I'll rage lol)

MaskedAvnger said:
But, as many people say, Shield > ZSS. The problem this poses is that in most matchups, it is better for toonlink to stay airborne.

I wish I had my video vs links24 uploaded now to give you and example but in the set I CP brinstar and kept the match to where the lava pressured him to move up and my aerials would always win (noting that our aerial game is much better then his) Stages like FD and Pictochat open up a very black and white match up when vsing Zss and our approaches are limited but our neutral b (and forward b if aimed correctly) will neutralize your forward b or neutral b it self

Also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFzKnYJbubA
You cant gimp us, Very rare occasions will be able to get gimped, we are not like Olimar/Ivysaur off stage

60/40 zss ; I just suck against links24 =(

edit - SFP we can complete our jab combo on toon link ??? =X

WindMajor · Jul 12, 2010

Well one thing is for sure.

ZSS item pieces are crucial to control. I don't recommend you pull out many bombs until they're all taken care of, since you want to be able to at least CATCH them if you can't overall avoid them. While you have them, do what you want I guess. I'd just throw them off the map, but that's just me. I'll have more later.

zApollo · Jul 12, 2010

solecalibur said:
edit - SFP we can complete our jab combo on toon link ??? =X

We if could that would beat using dash attack to punish TL.

And TL can be footstool gimped, very easily.

MaskedAvnger · Jul 12, 2010

Speaking of armor pieces, throwing them onto the ground makes them bounce, which can help with stage control. They're like wario tires like that.

You can sometimes catch your opponent offguard, some ZSS players aren't used to people who are as used to projectiles as tink is.

I would say ZSS advantage, since she beats us at midrange where we're most comfortable.

ph00tbag · Jul 12, 2010

MaskedAvnger said:
But, as many people say, Shield > ZSS. The problem this poses is that in most matchups, it is better for toonlink to stay airborne.

This is the issue. TL in shield is not a whole lot better than ZSS in shield. Sure, they both have their punishment options, but neither really has a superb way of beating shield pressure. Toon Link is definitely better off utilizing the air to zone while moving around, but that just plays to ZSS's strengths, because dash attack and uair combine to destroy TL's air game.

I've said it before. Spacing to punish with dash attack beats most, if not all, of TL's SH options, and uair beats all of his full jump options. A ZSS that aggressively occupies the range just outside of TL's grounded moves will win this match-up.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 12, 2010

Yes, jab combo beats Toon Link, ROB, Jigglypuff, Olimar when fresh, Marth, Kirby when fresh, etc. I'm going to make a thread about jab soon.

#HBC | ZoZo · Jul 13, 2010

Hard to camp zss on midrange? SideB has 31 frames of startup, in that time TL has like 100000000 projectiles on the field.

WindMajor · Jul 13, 2010

Camping isn't too difficult, you just have to make sure that you aren't getting stuck in a whole bunch of animations when you do it. Careful spacing is needed as well. Don't let her get under you as well, since she can just own you with Uair and UpB. If you do get hit by a Uair, DI and get out of there. If you get hit by an UpB that sends you to the ground, you can tech that landing.

Almost all of her moves can be punished with OoS Nair. The ones that don't fit are the ones that have long range (SideB, Ftilt tip, Dsmash, I think Dtilt tip too).

ph00tbag · Jul 13, 2010

ACTION PANDA said:
Camping isn't too difficult, you just have to make sure that you aren't getting stuck in a whole bunch of animations when you do it. Careful spacing is needed as well. Don't let her get under you as well, since she can just own you with Uair and UpB. If you do get hit by a Uair, DI and get out of there. If you get hit by an UpB that sends you to the ground, you can tech that landing.

Almost all of her moves can be punished with OoS Nair. The ones that don't fit are the ones that have long range (SideB, Ftilt tip, Dsmash, I think Dtilt tip too).

I doubt a properly spaced FF bair or nair from ZSS could be punished with nair OoS.

WindMajor · Jul 13, 2010

Then those will go along in the list, unless maybe we can get a grab in. Not too sure about the shield push and range though.

links24 · Jul 14, 2010

WTF sole putting that vid everywhere >.>

Kewkky · Jul 14, 2010

TWiNK said they were talking about women! I was gonna come in ready to pour my soul into a post or two! YOU OWE ME A BIG ONE MAN!

HA! Made you read this!

This MU is quite evenish. I dunno who has the slight advantage, maybe it's actually dead even. ZSS ha the speed to get close to TL, and she can jump very high and harrass him with her upB, so camping isn't the deciding factor in this MU. ZSS would do better to stay grounded the majority of the fight instead of going airborne to avoid the projectiles, shielding them with such a fast character is much more effective (on the contrary with Kirby, his best option is to go airborne since his ground speed isn't fast enough). Sad thing is, she doesn't have a grab, so as with every MU, all her punishment options derive on catching the opponent out of his shield with an attack. TL can OoS bair/nair, and if ZSS hits his shield he can do just that (unless she hits it with a sideB).

Thanks to her speed, she can keep up with TL who will be running around everywhere. Whenever he jumps high up, stay on the ground watching where he goes, tracking his trajectory. Eventually he'll come down, and that's when you're gonna attack him and send him right back up for a juggle!

Thebest1pj · Jul 14, 2010

the ZSS/TL MU is pretty even in my opinion. Most characters with a quick projectile game can make things really difficult for her. It limits her side+b and neutral+b almost entirely. I actually think TL's bombs go right through her neutral+b too.

Close up, ZSS might have a 'small' advantage. Her jab and dtilt are probably the most useful things she has in this match-up because they're useful for eating through defensive playstyles. Dtilt is really good for shield pressuring and her jab eats through a lot of projectiles and comes out quick enough to punish up close.

Aerial pressure, Toon Link just needs to keep at her sides, rather than above her. Her bair is good, but in comparison to TL's air game and range from the sides, it comes at a large risk for her.

Zair is great for keeping her pressured. Just don't let her get within stun, jab or dtilt range and you should have a really nice time against her. Which is what TL should be doing anyway. Also, watch out for her down+b, she can avoid projectiles and approach with that and her extra jumps.
50:50 sounds about right to me.
For some reason, the ZSS boards have it down as 60:40/65:35 in ZSS's favor, but that's gotta be a ****ing joke, or extremely outdated. lol

edit: Running to where tl is going to land will most likely mean your gonna eat a zair or a bomb .

afk work

TLMSheikant · Jul 14, 2010

I agree with it being even. I find nair OoS is awesome against everything she does except for side b and spaced bair. Her jab really isnt a problem as I think jab 3 has enough cooldown to retaliate with nair, at least from my experience Ive always been able to nair OoS it. Her dtilt though...now THAT's unpunishable, stay away from it. Her side b limits our zair game. Her upair is a really big threat, we have to stay at ground level because of that. Which, still allows for camping, its just not going to be the usual jumping around, etc. I think its 50 50 MAYBE 55:45 zss.

Supermodel From Paris · Jul 14, 2010

it would be even if it wasn't for the one frame jab.

MJG · Jul 14, 2010

Wow. I will assume that last post is a joke.

...

TL shouldn't really try to be camping ZSS anyways. A few projectiles will be thrown in here and there but TL has to be somewhat close to ZSS in order to do anything productive in this MU.

What are the stage preferences for this MU? Thats where I am lost in this MU.

Blakmane · Jul 14, 2010

ACTION PANDA said:
Then those will go along in the list, unless maybe we can get a grab in. Not too sure about the shield push and range though.

The moves you described as being safe for ZSS on TL's shield. are the only moves she uses to pressure shield anyway.

For the people above: read the page before, and you'll see why the MU is thought of as ZSS favour. Toonlink usually relies on SH aerials, but moving into the air around a ZSS is generally a very bad idea. On the ground, TL isn't great to begin with, but is hard pressed to keep up with ZSS due to dash attack and jab (Supermodel wasn't kidding), as well as powerful spacing moves like downsmash. ZSS's biggest weakness, being poor shield pressure (mainly due to no grab), is not particularly worrysome in this MU as her shield pressure outranges TL's OOS options. Side-b isn't particularly relevant: while it's a nice move, we should never be using it except to punish on any character anyway (as it is incredibly easy to shield the end or punish the start).

A lot of new ZSS's will try to side-b or camp a TL, as these are the easiest things to do with her. This kind of play will get absolutely destroyed. In order to capitalise on her advantages, ZSS has to play very specifically here: get in past the projectiles to just outside TL's grounded range and then space to oblivion.

Thebest1pj · Jul 15, 2010

I changed my mind. She has a horrible time getting around projectiles with most of her common options. Stun and side+B are almost useless. Close range, still difficult for her since TL has such a good pressure game and can give her aerial game trouble as well. About 50:50 or 55:45, TL. Probably.

and im pretty sure tl can grab zss out of her jab. The zss jab isn't really problem for us at all imo.

TLMSheikant · Jul 16, 2010

I agree, jab isnt a problem.

MaskedAvnger · Jul 20, 2010

I also agree that the jab isn't a problem, it hasn't really stood out as being that big of an annoyance when I've played against ZSS.

Can we get some opinions from you ZSS guys about stages before I write up summary?

WindMajor · Jul 20, 2010

Frigate Orpheon seems like the best counterpick, since she can't tether the right side at all. The ceiling is pretty high, which could also assist with surviving those Uairs.

I don't know how well she does on RC. There are barely any ledges, so theoretically it should be good, although I want a second opinion on this. If Japes is legal, I'm pretty sure ZSS does bad on it, so you can CP that.

TLMSheikant · Jul 20, 2010

Zss is beast in RC...

KunaiX · Jul 23, 2010

I played a lot ZSS and the result is:
Keep in Close Range and attack here from there. SHe doesnt have any chance. Dont stay away in middle or langrange, you would lose against a good one.

If you stay her at close range, many options from her are negated. She cant do anything against that >>Pressure Pressure Pressure << Rush this *****, she have much difficult against the tactic.

If you dont believe me play very aggresiv against her. You will see, the matchup is pretty easy...

_________

BTW... we have to finish this discuss and we should start a Discuss about Sheik. I saw many TL player who failed against her ...

Chsal · Jul 23, 2010

Really? I always run away and camp because I'm thinking
A) LOL I R HAZ MOAR PROJACTILES THAN U!!
B) I don't like that jab and stun D=.

I usually start to go aggressive once my Nairs start to push her offstage though, cuz then its an easy kill =D.

MJG · Jul 23, 2010

Don't try to camp ZSS.

Don't be in Mid Range.

Ya.

Chsal · Jul 24, 2010

Why not camp?

Its not like she has reflector or anything.

Only long ranged thing shes got is the funny taser gun, but its slow enough to dodge easily.

This is assuming all her armour pieces are gone. They aren't going to be there the whole match.

WindMajor · Jul 24, 2010

Because her weakness is shields, and you can't punish OoS from long distance. It's best to stay close with her.

Plus, her mid range options work well against us (Side B hitting us from mid range while we're trapped in animations for example).

These aren't the only reasons though.

MaskedAvnger · Jul 26, 2010

I'll write up summary when I get a chance. Been swamped with work. prob tomorrow afternoon

CTX · Jul 26, 2010

ACTION PANDA said:
Because her weakness is shields, and you can't punish OoS from long distance. It's best to stay close with her.

Plus, her mid range options work well against us (Side B hitting us from mid range while we're trapped in animations for example).

These aren't the only reasons though.

This. These aren't the only reasons, but they are the biggest reasons. Camping allows her to hit us in all of our b-move animations from mid-long range, with side-b. Because of this, you have to stay in her grill. Don't be reckless with z-air and constantly trying to use that as your ticket in. Doing so well lead you to getting baited and eating side-b when you are at kill percent.

Be cautious with spotdogding and airdodging. Both of these can be countered with her fast and sweet-spotted aerials, which at later percents can kill. Stay in your shield a little bit more in this match.

Be the aggressor in this matchup. Having played a good number of ZSS's, I would say that I had much more success when I was the aggressor as opposed to the camper. Did this against Legan's ZSS, and I lost when I was camping, and won when I was aggro. That simple

WindMajor · Jul 27, 2010

I remember having a close game against a noob ZSS because I tried to camp him (I won, but I had to time him out). At the same time, I can have close games with Kewkky, who is a much better ZSS, by going pure offense.

It really makes the difference.

MaskedAvnger · Jul 27, 2010

Matchup Summary - ZSS

Best stage to fight ZSS on:

Other good stages:
Jungle Japes

Worst stage to fight ZSS on:

Other bad stages:
Halberd
Battlefield
Castle Seige

Summary:

ZSS is a matchup that must be played offensively, as opposed to camping like most people. Zero Suit's moveset is very capable of punishing us in the middle of a shorthop if we do SH projectiles from midrange. So you need to stay up in close range to keep the game going in your favor.

Nair OoS is very helpful in this matchup, just watch out for bair. Basically, shield whatever attacks are coming at you, and punish them once you shield them.

Armor pieces are important on stock one, as they do a lot of damage, and are just really good projectiles. If you aren't aware and careful, you could take way too much damage really quick and have to play catchup for some time. Throwing them on the ground will cause them to bounce, much like Wario's tires, and make a wall of sorts. On the opposite note, if you control the armor pieces, you can get a sizable lead right off the bat, and make zss catchup, which is always nice.

Just really stay out of midrange, ZSS will get you. And avoid camping too, because she will win in the long run. If you stay close and up in her face, her options become very limited.

ZSS is a little harder to gimp than most tether characters, so be careful when you go for the offstage kill.

Just keep close, throw in a few projectiles, but don't let her get away from ya. Avoid using too much zair, you'll probably get punished if it gets shielded.

It's even due to the fact that we both have tools to deal with the other one, tink maybe has a few more, but to be effective we have to go out of our normal comfort zone and be more aggressive.

Even 50-50

CTX · Jul 27, 2010

Also, avoid battlefield and castle siege. They love the platforms there and they can really control the stage well in the first stock with armor pieces.

AvengedHeart4Ever · Aug 12, 2010

Honestly I believe we should camp ZSS. Her jab and utilt have incredible speed up close so battling at that range can be difficult, it must all be spaced aerials. If we are at midrange with ours zairs and projectiles, she can use her plasma whip to punish and or grab when we land. She will not grab often since it is risky, but if we retreat short hop nair they can punish with such. Full hop retreats can be good but eventually get predictable and easily punished with her uair or even bair. We have a good ZSS here in cuba that occasionally takes games off me, but as long as i do not approach i win.

Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Zero Suit Samus

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