Marths OoS options MK added

I will use the abbreviation SA (soonest action) in this thread, most of the time its shielding which gives you 1 extra frame. If its ZSS jab however you will not receive an extra frame.

Shield advantage will be listed AS AFTER YOU SHIELD DROP which is 7 frames, JC up JC up smash, and grab bypass this. Jumping out of shield drops the 7 frames but you do need to include the jumping animation frames which is 4.
essentially jumping + 3 frame advantage

when I say + 1 your opponents action will start on frame 2 aka they CANNOT HAVE PERFORMED ANOTHER ACTION DURING YOUR ADVANTAGE ON THIS LIST

I will assume all actions are buffered
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825 marth frame data thread
in general a list to tell you when you can or cannot OoS a move
-2 up B oos
-1 grab
0- none
+1-fair
+ 3 - nair uair dair
+4- bair, jab, dancing blade
+ 5- U smash
+ 6- d smash, utilt
+7- ftilt dtilt
+10 F smash
+ 19 Shield breaker

Metaknight​

These options will naturally only work if your opponent is in range so please uses discretion. Obviously if your opponent is out of range they won't hit. this thread simply tells you whats frame possible.


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205614 MKs frame data found here




Jab - Data not found on subsequent hits will be added later

Dtilt- frame advantage after block +4. SA (shield) +5, jumping Oos +7 SA + 9

Ground options-jab, dancing blade, up B oos, grab, Up Smash
Air options Fair, nair, bair, uair, dair

Comments. Many of the aerials will not hit MK dtilting however it is possible assuming they will hit. Utilt and Down smash will hit if MK attempts to Dtilt again however they can be shielded.



Ftilt First hit

Shield advantage- +12 SA(shield)+ 13 Jumping Oos + 15 SA + 16

Ground options- jab, dancing blade, up B (both Oos and non OoS), dtilt, ftilt, utilt, Dsmash up smash, F smash, grab
Aerial moves OoS- Fair, dair, nair, bair,uair

Comments: it is unlikely you will ever actually receive 1 Ftilt only however if F tilt ever hits your shield you can ALWAYS up B oos.


Ftilt second and third hits
Shield advantage+ 23 SA (shield) 24 jump oos 26 SA 27

Can perform all moves on block

Keep in mind Ftilt 2 isn’t nearly as practical however. However on Ftilt 2 Up B oos will always works


Utilt
Shield advantage + 18 SA 19 jumping OOS 21 SA 22
Ground moves, Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, uptilt, Down smash, forward smash, up smash, Dancing blade, dolphin slash) grab
Aerial moves, Fair, nair, dair, uair, bair
Comments: can perform all moves except Shield breaker, and since SB will be PS’d it isn’t worth using.




Down smash
Front +18 SA 19 Jumping Oos +21 SA 22
Ground moves, Jab, Ftilt, Dtilt, uptilt, Down smash, forward smash, up smash, Dancing blade, dolphin slash) grab
Aerial moves, Fair, nair, dair, uair, bair
Comments: can perform all moves except Shield breaker, and since SB will be PS’d it isn’t worth using.

Down smash back
Advantage + 13 SA 14 jumping OoS +16 SA 17
Ground moves, jab, ftilt, down tilt, utilt, F smash, Upsmash, down smash, dancing blade, Up B, grab
Aerial moves- Fair, nair,dair, bair, uair.
Comments: can use all moves except SB



F smash
Shield advantedge + 5 SA 6 jumping OoS +8 SA 9

Ground moves : Jab, grab, dancing blade, uptilt, down smash, Up B
Aerial moves: Fair, nair, bair, dair, uair




Up Smash
Shield advantedge 24 SA 25 jumping oos 27 SA 28
All moves can be used




Nair
Shield advantedge + 8 SA + 9 jumping OoS +11 SA +12

Ground moves Up B, dancing blade, Ftilt, utilt, dtilt, D smash, utilt, U smash, grab, jab
Aerial moves, Fair nair dair uair bair.
Comment- this is NOT auto canceled, however the MK thread specifically said it was unlikely that they would auto cancel it. IF THEY DO your only option is Up B oos buffered




Fair
Shield advantedge + 1 SA 2 jumping OoS 4 SA 5
Ground moves Up B, grab
Aerial moves fair
Comments- this one’s tough to OoS but its possible….just hard




Bair
Shield advantage -4 SA -3 jumping -1 SA 0
Ground moves………..none
Aerial moves……….none
Comments well at firs this looks really bad but thankfully you can Up B oos this while getting hit similar to nado.



Dair
Shield advantedge +11 SA+12 Jumping OoS +14 SA 15
Ground moves- jab, dancing blade, dtilt, utilt, F tilt, Fsmash, dsmash, U smash, up B grab.
Aerial moves- Fair, nair, uair, dair, bair



Uair
Shield advantage +3 SA 4 jumping OoS + 6 SA + 7
Ground options Up B, jab, grab, dancing blade.
Aerial options, fair nair bair dair uair

No data currently available on MKs specials will add when received

will add snake soon, like tommorow

reserved should I need this

2nd post reserved just in case.

You aren't accounting for spacing. Up B out of shield won't work on MK's ground game if he is spacing properly. For example, an MK should only be doing F-Tilt at the maximum range against Marth, since it out-ranges everything that Marth has if I recall. At that range, the most you can do is retreat out of shield. By the time you'd travel towards with an aerial, he'd be able to up B you. It's easy to punish MK, when he is spacing poorly.

More so, you aren't accounting for the distance you're pushed when you normal shield. Most of the time, for example, if you're down-smashed by MK you'll be pushed outside of grab range, and thus pretty much every half decent move in your inventory. Just because frame wise you should be able to do a move, doesn't mean it's going to happen since you have to account for spacing + shield push. Or, you're naming moves that aren't going to be done against shield. Dair is only going to be done while MK is rising away from you, and Up air will only be done when MK is coming from below you.

*HEADDESK
DID YOU READ THE TOP
why did I even ask you clearly didn't

"These options will naturally only work if your opponent is in range so please uses discretion."

I mean come on....it was BOLDED.
guess I will have to add on so people don't make the same mistake

However, why list an option if it won't even work? You literally cannot grab MK if he down-smashes against your shield unless you power shield. Dancing Blade won't work if the spacing of Down-smash is even remotely decent. Just because something works due to the advantage you SHOULD have, doesn't mean it will in the real world once you factor in shield push + reaction time. I appreciate the effort you're putting here, but if you're going to half-*** it, there's no point in even posting it.

-Ran said:

However, why list an option if it won't even work? You literally cannot grab MK if he down-smashes against your shield unless you power shield. Dancing Blade won't work if the spacing of Down-smash is even remotely decent. Just because something works due to the advantage you SHOULD have, doesn't mean it will in the real world once you factor in shield push + reaction time. I appreciate the effort you're putting here, but if you're going to half-*** it, there's no point in even posting it.

Click to expand...

I didn't half *** it. Those options are guaranteed to work if in range.

Marth shouldn't be getting shield grabbed because his fair should be well spaced but does that mean I shouldn't know how to shield grab marth? OF COURSE NOT! While shield grab is of course a universal mechanic its still the principle of knowing what you can do to punish something.

Are you seriously going to tell me that your better off NOT knowing potential options when they are in range?

Here's the thing. With Marth, the Fair needs to be tippered to not be shield grabbed, and executed perfectly. Meta knight however, you can be within the length of one Marth, down-smash, and be safe from almost every move that Marth can do. In fact, in most cases Marth doing a move results in him getting punished since he attempts to use something that might work only 5% of the time, such as doing a grab or forward B.

So no, they aren't 'guaranteed' to work. Knowing one answer that works 100% of the time more important than just throwing at moves that would hopefully work if your opponent messed up their spacing horribly. As I mentioned with Down-smash, the line between a move being able to work such as F-b and not working is so slim, that it isn't worth even attempting to do F-B unless the MK started Down-smash directly on top of you. Even then, it's a risk since the MK would be towards the tip of F-B which would results in him SDI-ing it.

-Ran said:

Here's the thing. With Marth, the Fair needs to be tippered to not be shield grabbed, and executed perfectly. Meta knight however, you can be within the length of one Marth, down-smash, and be safe from almost every move that Marth can do. In fact, in most cases Marth doing a move results in him getting punished since he attempts to use something that might work only 5% of the time, such as doing a grab or forward B.

So no, they aren't 'guaranteed' to work. Knowing one answer that works 100% of the time more important than just throwing at moves that would hopefully work if your opponent messed up their spacing horribly. As I mentioned with Down-smash, the line between a move being able to work such as F-b and not working is so slim, that it isn't worth even attempting to do F-B unless the MK started Down-smash directly on top of you. Even then, it's a risk since the MK would be towards the tip of F-B which would results in him SDI-ing it.

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Why are you repeating the same argument that has no merit? your acting like I am suggesting you to try to grab Dsmash when its out of range. I'm not, I am telling you "you can when he acts like an idiot".

the shield grab point is still valid, human error applies ergo its possible to punish these moves with moves that are not possible when properly executed.


Your interpreting my post as
"go grab downsmash oos even if its out of range"
when the point of this is to really say
"your guaranteed to grab him if its in range, along with move x,y,and z"

and you never answered my question as to how knowing any of this data is honestly going to make you worse?

You have no facts against my case. If I had posted options that aren't guaranteed to work within in range or said these would always work in any circumstance you'd have valid points.

yes it is good to know options that will always work, you say throwing out moves hoping they will hit...................WELL WHY ARE YOU USING THEM IF THEY WON'T DID YOU NOT READ THE BOLD? if they are in range to hit you they are guaranteed to be physically able of hitting if performed correctly . THAT is the whole point of this.

what I object to you doing is calling this half asssed when I
1. Covered every possible option including the options that will be used more often (Up B ooS)
2. you try to defend your points with things that I specifically addressed before you posted, if I ever said these will work 100% of the time in any situation THAT would be different I never did, in fact I ALWAYS said that you would need to use discretion when deciding which moves to use.
3. Used DATA to prove my points. Human error is your fault. I am telling you that its possible to do several of these things, if your incapable of doing it and both the frame requirement and range requirement are met that's irrelevant because it IS possible to do.

Blacknight99923 said:

Why are you repeating the same argument that has no merit? your acting like I am suggesting you to try to grab Dsmash when its out of range. I'm not, I am telling you "you can when he acts like an idiot".

Click to expand...

Because a down-smash from MK is one of the view chances that any Marth player will have a chance to punish him out of shield, and to do the wrong move [since you're listing so many] would put the Marth player in a horrible spot. Most of what you're listing won't work. Lol.

the shield grab point is still valid, human error applies ergo its possible to punish these moves with moves that are not possible when properly executed.

Click to expand...

You can't shield grab down-smash, unless you perfect shield.

Your interpreting my post as
"go grab downsmash oos even if its out of range"
when the point of this is to really say
"your guaranteed to grab him if its in range, along with move x,y,and z"

Click to expand...

However, you aren't accounting for shield push which is the most important part here. You're listing options that will only work once out of twenty times. Those are bad options.

and you never answered my question as to how knowing any of this data is honestly going to make you worse?

Click to expand...

Reliance on the potential of an option that only works 1/20 times and relies on your opponent to be a total scrub is a poor option to know. You shouldn't be thinking when you're getting hit by a MK move as to how bad their spacing is, but rather assuming that their spacing is sufficient to dictate that you use your best OOS option rather than a gimmick that will rarely work.

You have no facts against my case. If I had posted options that aren't guaranteed to work within in range or said these would always work in any circumstance you'd have valid points.

Click to expand...

Punishment of a move is always dictated by Spacing + Shield Push + Frame data. Many of what you have listed just won't work for the bulk of the situations that a given move is going to put you in.

yes it is good to know options that will always work, you say throwing out moves hoping they will hit...................WELL WHY ARE YOU USING THEM IF THEY WON'T DID YOU NOT READ THE BOLD? if they are in range to hit you they are guaranteed to be physically able of hitting if performed correctly . THAT is the whole point of this.

Click to expand...

So you're saying that someone should always, 100% of the time understand the poor spacing of the opponent, and then retaliate as quickly as possible while still digesting the information as to how badly their opponent messed up? MK doesn't have large windows like that, and you can always assume that he is going to be using his fastest move the moment he notices that you're attempting to retaliate. Due to this, you should instead rely on the 'reaction' side of your brain, and have the best option that WILL work, regardless of their spacing primed and ready to go.

what I object to you doing is calling this half asssed when I
1. Covered every possible option including the options that will be used more often (Up B ooS)

Click to expand...

A bad option shouldn't be listed, or should be denoted as such. You're just staring at frame-data and hoping for the best. It doesn't work that way.

2. you try to defend your points with things that I specifically addressed before you posted, if I ever said these will work 100% of the time in any situation THAT would be different I never did, in fact I ALWAYS said that you would need to use discretion when deciding which moves to use.

Click to expand...

A disclaimer for a punishment thread? Seriously, the goal isn't to spread misinformation or data that is vastly useless due to how unlikely it would be to actually work. You need to strive to create punishments that work the vast majority of the time, instead of living in a whimsical fantasy land where frame data solves everything. You're just listing moves that have the potential to hit based off the numbers you saw in the MK Frame Data thread, you aren't even testing them to see if the shield push will allow them to work. Your data is flawed.

3. Used DATA to prove my points. Human error is your fault. I am telling you that its possible to do several of these things, if your incapable of doing it and both the frame requirement and range requirement are met that's irrelevant because it IS possible to do.

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No, it isn't human error. I'm telling you that simply listing what you think will work, doesn't mean they are going to work in the real world. Simply stipulating that something might work only 1% of the time, isn't enough to justify it being added to a list of moves to use as punishment. Instead, you should look at the moves that 99.9% of the time are going to be able to punish the moves that are being done against your character. Anything else is pointless, since you aren't going to have the time in a match to dissect the options that are there.

The windows against MK are always, always closing fast whenever he has missed an attack, or done something against your shield. One mistake by how you punish, results in a damage trade that Marth isn't capable of continuing with MK. Maybe I'm just used to playing against Lee Martin to the extent that I know the moment I make one mistake with the wrong punish move, that I'm going to be eating damage. I'm into the real world application of frame-data, but there's more to it than just adding and subtracting.

I wish you luck on your thread, but from the looks of it isn't a resource that I'll recommend.

Wow this is terrible. Only read the OP, but that was all that's necessary. You have no idea how to interpret frame data, kind chap. Your effort is appreciated, but in vain.

Great post.

-Ran said:

Because a down-smash from MK is one of the view chances that any Marth player will have a chance to punish him out of shield, and to do the wrong move [since you're listing so many] would put the Marth player in a horrible spot. Most of what you're listing won't work. Lol.


thats not the point of this

You can't shield grab down-smash, unless you perfect shield.

this still isn't the point of the thread

However, you aren't accounting for shield push which is the most important part here. You're listing options that will only work once out of twenty times. Those are bad options.

since when did I say they were normally good options
Reliance on the potential of an option that only works 1/20 times and relies on your opponent to be a total scrub is a poor option to know. You shouldn't be thinking when you're getting hit by a MK move as to how bad their spacing is, but rather assuming that their spacing is sufficient to dictate that you use your best OOS option rather than a gimmick that will rarely work.
your still missing the point of this thread

Punishment of a move is always dictated by Spacing + Shield Push + Frame data. Many of what you have listed just won't work for the bulk of the situations that a given move is going to put you in.
your repeating the same thing
So you're saying that someone should always, 100% of the time understand the poor spacing of the opponent, and then retaliate as quickly as possible while still digesting the information as to how badly their opponent messed up? MK doesn't have large windows like that, and you can always assume that he is going to be using his fastest move the moment he notices that you're attempting to retaliate. Due to this, you should instead rely on the 'reaction' side of your brain, and have the best option that WILL work, regardless of their spacing primed and ready to go.

again yes I will still be using Up B OoS almost all the time, but this ISN'T the point of the thread

A bad option shouldn't be listed, or should be denoted as such. You're just staring at frame-data and hoping for the best. It doesn't work that way.

no I'm not, I'm really not suggesting you do several off these things like shield breaking up smash on block.
A disclaimer for a punishment thread? Seriously, the goal isn't to spread misinformation or data that is vastly useless due to how unlikely it would be to actually work. You need to strive to create punishments that work the vast majority of the time, instead of living in a whimsical fantasy land where frame data solves everything. You're just listing moves that have the potential to hit based off the numbers you saw in the MK Frame Data thread, you aren't even testing them to see if the shield push will allow them to work. Your data is flawed.



No, it isn't human error. I'm telling you that simply listing what you think will work, doesn't mean they are going to work in the real world. Simply stipulating that something might work only 1% of the time, isn't enough to justify it being added to a list of moves to use as punishment. Instead, you should look at the moves that 99.9% of the time are going to be able to punish the moves that are being done against your character. Anything else is pointless, since you aren't going to have the time in a match to dissect the options that are there.

The windows against MK are always, always closing fast whenever he has missed an attack, or done something against your shield. One mistake by how you punish, results in a damage trade that Marth isn't capable of continuing with MK. Maybe I'm just used to playing against Lee Martin to the extent that I know the moment I make one mistake with the wrong punish move, that I'm going to be eating damage. I'm into the real world application of frame-data, but there's more to it than just adding and subtracting.
the last three paragraphs are pretty much the same as the one above
I wish you luck on your thread, but from the looks of it isn't a resource that I'll recommend.
I'm really not pretending that you should actually try many of these

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I didn't go through all of this data to try to get people to get things that won't work. this is the data behind it, your interpreting the data differently than the original point.

frame data in general isn't always a great resource to many people because of how humans work but the fact remains that there is still data behind several of these attacks, I listed this data simply to state data and is potentially possible even if it isn't realistic. your acting like I made this so people would start uptilting Mks dair on block, no I didn't. No I didn't this isn't a GUIDE TO TELL YOU HOW TO PLAY, THIS IS SIMPLY DATA.


I guarantee you aren't thinking in a match "Mks Fair will come out in 6 fames". What you possibly consider is that its fast and is safe on block, but that doesn't change the raw data.

I posted data not a guide on OoS whether its useful to most people is irrelevant because I made it for the sake of making data.

I feel bad you spent time on this.

-NaPPy said:

I feel bad you spent time on this.

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ROFL^^^^ hahaha

But yeah I agree with Ran, he is smart.

Umm, if you ever try and shield grab MK's Dsmash, I hope he Dsmashes again and you have bad DI. As MK, I use this move SPECIFICALLY when close to my opponent knowing that they will FOOLISHLY try to shield grab, so I can get a free hit on them. That being said, it's HORRIBLE on block, and if you're fast, you can even Fsmash this option. However, Shield Drop Dancing Blade is good for damage, and Marth's own Dsmash is good to kill. If MK Dtilt's your shield, your best option is probably to shield drop reshield, to hope for a powershield, and then immediately try for your own Dsmash. I get this a lot. It depends on how good the MK's shield pressure is though.

Perhaps later I'll go into heavy detail on how to react when stuff hits your shield in the most important MUs, because a large part of high level play is perfecting these punishes to never miss an opportunity to reverse pressure and deal damage. For now, I'll just mention that to grab is 6 frames (regardless of whether you are shielding, and I think every spot-dodge in the game comes out Frame 2 (typically the fastest option to evade grab) so something would have to be at least -7 on your block to be shield grabbed with guarantee.

that would be nice and I would add it to my post. I already spoke to kadaj about trying to get pictures for this to show whats more practical at a spaced range however if anyone else would like to help it would be appreciated. When I'm done with all this stuff for MK I will be covering snake (except they don't have shield advantage stuff so it will take longer)