The Flipside of Orpheon: Things You Didn't Know and Were Too Lazy To Ask (Updated)

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Stage Gimmicks!

As pictured above, Orpheon's main gimmick is that the stage FLIPS in order to switch from one transition to the other. This transition is always preceded by the loud warning siren and accompanying flashing lights. This warning signal gives you about 3 seconds to get to somewhere safe, then the stage will flip. The important thing to note about the flips is that while the stage moves, YOU do not, unless you are still ON the stage. What this means is, as it quickly rotates, if you're still standing on it, you'll fall off, usually at a reasonably high distance in the air, depending on which direction the stage rotated. Note that DURING this flip, you cannot latch onto the stage's edges until it stops moving.

Now to address a silly concern: Getting star KO'd by the stage. This is an extremely rare occurrence, and should only happen if you are in an obviously bad place when it flips. In this case, our obviously bad place is in the path of whichever side rotates upwards. If you happen to be in the way of the rather solid stage as it rotates, it can and will star KO you. This is absolutely no reason to ban the stage, it's just another easy to adapt to mechanic. Given the time between the warning and the flip, it is QUITE reasonable to expect to be able to get somewhere safe. (Easiest thing to do is just jump towards the middle of the screen)

Now, on to a load of data and funny business. In order to determine if there was some sort of pattern to Frigate Orpheon's flipping shenanigans, I took 10 trial runs through a full 8-minute match, to see if I could determine a pattern. I'm pleased to say I can provide a general guideline of the trends and timing of the stage. Within the following collapse box is the data from these 10 runs, which I will elaborate on below it.

Trial 1:
Flip at 7:17 (Now on Phase 2)
Right slide-in (7:02-6:57) (15 without, 5 with)
Left Slide-in (6:55-6:52) (17 without, 8 with)
Right SI (6:50-6:47) (19 without, 11 with)
Left SI (6:47-6:46) (19 without, 12 with)
Left AND Right (6:40-6:37(left)/6:36(Right) (25 without, 16 with)
Left (6:30-6:27) (31 without, 19 with)
Right (6:27-6:24) (31 without, 22 with)
Lights comes on (6:18)
Left SI (6:18-6:15) (37 without, 25 with)
Right SI (6:15-6:12) (37 without, 28 with)
Left and Right (6:05-6:03/6:02) (44 w/o, 31 w)
Left (5:55-5:53) (51 w/o, 33 w)
Right (5:54-5:50) (51 w/o, 36 w)
Flip at 5:47 (Lights ON) (Now on Phase 1)
Flip at 5:22 (Lights ON) (Now on Phase 2)
Right (5:17-5:16) (56 w/o, 36 w)
Left (5:15-5:11) (57 w/o, 40 w)
Right (5:07-5:04) (61 w/o, 43 w)
Left (5:01-4:59) ( 64 w/o, 46 w)
Right (4:55-4:52) (68 w/o, 49 w)
Left (4:52- 4:49) (68 w/o, 52 w)
Lights OFF (4:44) (72 w/o, 52 w)
Right (4:45- 4:41) (72 w/o, 56 w)
Left (4:42-4:41) (72 w/o, 56 w)
Left and Right (4:34- 4:32/4:28) (79 w/o, 62 w)
Left (4:24-4:22) (83 w/o, 64 w)
Right (4:22- 4:18) (83 w/o, 68 w)
Left (4:14-4:11) (87 w/o, 71 w)
LIGHTS ON (4:11)
Right (4:10- 4:06) (88 w/o, 75 w)
Left (4:06-4:05) (88 w/o, 76 w)
Right (3:58-3:55) (95 w/o, 79 w)
Left (3:56-3:55) (95 w/o, 79 w)
Left (3:48-3:47) (102 w/o, 80 w)
Right (3:46- 3:43) (103 w/o, 83 w)
FLIP AT 3:40 (LIGHTS ON) (Phase 1) (106 w/o, 83 w)
Flip at 3:15 (LIGHTS ON) (Phase 2)
Right (On during flip- 3:11) (106 w/o, 87 w)
Left (3:10 -3:08) (107 w/o, 89 w)
Right (3:01 – 2:58) (114 w/o, 92 w)
Left (2:58-2:57) (114 w/o, 93 w)
Right and Left (2:52-2:47) (119 w/o, 98 w)
LIGHTS OFF (2:40) (126 w/o, 98 w)
Right and Left (2:37- 2:34) (129 w/o, 101 w)
Right and Left (2:25- 2:25(Left)/2:21 (Right) (138 w/o, 105 w)
Left (2:16- 2;14) (143 w/o, 107 w)
Right (2:12- 2:09) (145 w/o, 110 w)
LIGHTS ON (2:07)
Left (2:06-2:06) (148 w/o, 111 w)
Right (2:01- 1:57) (153 w/o, 115 w)
Left (1:57- 1:56) (153 w/o, 116 w)
Right (1:50 – 1:47) (159 w/o, 119 w)
Left (1:48 – 1:47)
Left and Right (1:40-1:37(Left)/1:36(Right)) (166 w/o, 123 w)
Flip at 1:34 (Phase 1) (169 w/o, 123 w)
Flip at 1:04 (Phase 2)
Left (1:01-0:57) (172 w/o, 127 w)
Right (0:54-0:51) (175 w/o, 130 w)
Left (0:48-0:45) (178 w/o, 133 w)
Right (0:42-0:39) (181 w/o, 136 w)
Left (0:37-0:34) (183 w/o, 139 w)
LIGHTS OFF (0:33)
Right (0:30-0:26) (187 w/o, 143 w)
Left (0:25-0:22) (188 w/o, 146 w)
Right (0:17-0:14) (193 w/o, 149 w)
Left (0:12-0:11) (195 w/o, 150 w)
Right (0:07-0:04) (199 w/o, 154 w)
Left (0:03 to End) (200 w/o, 157 w)
LIGHTS ON (0:02)
Initial Hypothesis: Stage cannot flip when lights are off, platforms alternate, with no particular pattern for the double segments. Platforms are in anywhere between 1 and 5 seconds, left seems to stay less than the right. Seems to be a 6-second gap before and after a double platform segment, though a six second gap does not always indicate a double plat.
Time Spent on Phase 1: 2:03 of 8 minutes. 25%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 5:57 of 8 minutes. 75%
Platforms In: 2:37 of 5:57 minutes. 44%
Platforms Out: 3:20 of 5:57 minutes. 56%
Flip Count: 7

Trial 2
Start (8:00)
FLIP AT 7:20 (Phase 2)
Lights off at 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Lights off at 5:40
Lights on at 5:10
Flip at 4:37 (1:10 later then expected) (Phase 1)
Flip at 4:12 (Exactly when expected + 1:10) (Phase 2)
Lights off at 3:33
Lights on at 3:03
Flip at 2:30 (Expected + 1:10) (Phase 1)
Lights off at 1:52
Lights on at 1:20
Flip at 0:47 (Phase 2)
Flip at 0:22 (Phase 1)
Time Spent on Phase 1: 168 of 480 seconds – 35%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 312 of 480 seconds – 65%

Trial 3
Start (8:00)
Flip at (7:23) Phase 2 *DIED*
Lights off at 6:40
Lights on at 6:10
FLIP AT 5:40 Phase 1
Flip at 5:10 Phase 2
Lights off at 4:45
Lights on at 4:15
Flip at 3:40 Phase 1
Flip at 3:15 Phase 2
Lights off at 2:45
Lights on at 2:15
Flip at 1:37 Phase 1
Flip at 1:12 Phase 2
Lights off at 0:30
Lights on at 0:00
Time Spent on Phase 1: 117 of 480 seconds – 24%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 363 of 480 seconds – 76%

Trial 4
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:24 *PHASE 2*
Lights off at 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Flip at 5:44 *PHASE 1*
Flip at 5:20 *Phase 2*
Lights off 4:55
Lights on 4:25
Flip at 3:50 *Phase 1*
Flip at 3:20 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 2:40
Lights on at 2:10
Flip at 1:34 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 0:52
Lights on at 0:22
Time Spent on Phase 1: 223 of 480 – 46%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 257 of 480 – 54%

Trial 5
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:22 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:55
Lights on at 6:25
Flip at 5:50 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:25 *Phase 2*
Lights off 4:55
Lights on 4:25
Lights off at 3:45
Lights on 3:15
Flip at 2:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 2:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 1:35
Lights on at 1:05
Flip at 0:27 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 0:05
Time Spent on Phase 1: 115 of 480 – 24%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 365 of 480 – 76%

Trial 6
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off 6:50
Lights on at 6:20
Flip at 5:46 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 5:15
Lights on 4:45
Lights off 4:05
Lights on at 3:35
Flip at 3:00 *Phase 2*
Flip at 2:35 *Phase 1*
Lights off 2:00
Lights on 1:30
Lights off 0:55
Lights on 0:25
Time Spent on Phase 1: 366 of 480 – 76%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 114 of 480 – 24%

Trial 7
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:45
Lights on at 6:15
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:37
Lights on at 4:07
Lights off at 3:20
Lights on at 2:50
Flip at 2:17 *Phase 1*
Flip at 1:50 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 1:25
Lights on at 0:55
Flip at 0:20
Time Spent on Phase 1: 97 of 480 – 20%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 383 of 480 – 80%

Trial 8
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:17 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:45
Lights on at 6:15
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:15 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:50
Lights on at 4:20
Lights off 3:35
Lights on 3:05
Flip at 2:30 *phase 1*
Flip at 2:03 *phase 2*
Lights off at 1:40
Lights on at 1:10
Lights off at 0:28
Time Spent on Phase 1: 95 of 480 – 20%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 385 of 480 – 80%

Trial 9
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:18 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:43
Lights on at 6:13
Flip at 5:40 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:12 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:50
Lights on at 4:20
Flip at 3:43 *Phase 1*
Flip at 3:18 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 2:45
Lights on at 2:15
Flip at 1:38 *Phase 1*
Flip at 1:10 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 0:30
Light on at End
Time Spent on Phase 1: 123 of 480 – 26%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 357 of 480 – 74%

Trial 10
Start (8:00)
Flip at 7:22 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 6:42
Lights on at 6:12
Flip at 5:38 *Phase 1*
Flip at 5:13 *Phase 2*
Lights off at 4:40
Lights on at 4:10
Lights off at 3:25
Lights on at 2:55
Flip at 2:20 *Phase 1*
Lights off at 1:58
Lights on at 1:28
Flip at 0:50 *Phase 2*
Flip at 0:25 *Phase 1*
Time Spent on Phase 1: 178 of 480 – 37%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 302 of 480 – 63%

TOTAL AVERAGES:
Time Spent on Phase 1: 33%
Time Spent on Phase 2: 66%

Now to elaborate on all those ugly numbers and logs.

In the first trial run, I recorded the flips, the lights, and when the platforms were present on the second transition. My data indicated that the platforms were in about 45% of the time, and that they alternated between left and right, with no real pattern to when there would be both simultaneously. As noted in the initial hypothesis, the left platforms seemed to stay onscreen for less time than the right. The left frequently visited for less than a second, while the right tended to stay longer towards 5 seconds, though both usually averaged around 3.

Recording every single platform was a huge hassle, and I so no discernible pattern worth finding, so I dropped that idea and focused on the flips and lighting. My finds were pleasing.

Firstly, on the lighting. When I refer to "Lights on" and "Lights off", I am referring to the background lighting that illuminates the Parasite Queen and the other portion of the stage. Why is this important? The stage WILL NOT FLIP IF THE LIGHTS ARE OFF.

Furthermore, the lights are always off for exactly 30 seconds at a time, so they can be used as a safety window to know that there CANNOT be a flip.

Now, onto the trends that can be drawn from the flipping and lighting. Most important thing to note, is that ALL TEN trials had a flip occur between 7:25 and 7:15. While I have heard stories of the stage not flipping at all, this leads me to believe this is a very strong trend that can be counted on.

Looking closer, we also see that after flipping to Phase 2, 22/26 times, the stage flipped BACK to Stage 2 after a mere 25-30 seconds. Trial 6 was the main exception to this trend, staying on Phase 1 for 75% of the time, in stark contrast to the other 9 trials, which all tipped in Phase 2's favor, usually around 70% of the time spent on it, even as much as 80%.

Why is this important to us? The main gripe about Frigate Orpheon is that its ledge on Phase 1 over-centralizes gameplay. Trials have indicated that Frigate spends on average, close to 70% of the time on the OTHER transition. (Even with the outlier run, it's still 66% of the time)

TL;DR version: Frigate spends 75% of the time on Phase 2, quit johning about the ledge and deal with it.

Adding to this from my Marth guide, Frigate is clearly more fit to be a starter over Delfino, when you consider that the main gripe for this stage is the lack of ledge on Phase 1, which the stage spends close to 75% of the time on.

Frigate > Walkoffs galore, temporary walls all over the place, water, changing blastzones, and a semi-permeable central platform.

NEW STUFF

Ok, so I decided to finally finish up looking at my notes to make a general outline of what to expect on this stage.

Firstly, I believe Frigate can be predicted largely by following a series of If -> Then statements.

The First major split comes at the 7:27-7:17 mark. In the majority of my trials, the stage has flipped at this point. If it does, it is HIGHLY likely that the majority of the time will be spent on Transition 2. If it does NOT flip at this point, my trials show that the stage will follow a pattern based around Transition 1.

The majority of what is going to happen revolves around a simple concept: If one thing happens, the other CANNOT happen for at least "x" amount of time.

Following the first flip to Phase 2, there is a 30-40 second gap before the next event.

After this buffer period passes, one of two thing will happen:

1) The Stage flips again.
2) The Lights go out.

If the lights go out, the prediction is simple. From the time the lights go out, they will be off for exactly 30 seconds. After this, we return to the former pattern of a 30-40 second gap, followed by the same If -> then.

If the stage FLIPS, the prediction gets a little hazier. The grand majority of my trials have shown the stage focusing primarily on one transition, based on whether or not it flips at 7:17. If it DOES flip, you get a type 2. What this means, it that if it flips BACK to phase 1, it becomes extremely likely that it will flip back to phase 2 after 25 seconds. It then resumes the 30 sec Gap -> If/Then pattern.

If it doesn't flip, you get a Type 1, and it does MORE OR LESS the same thing as type 2, just changing the transitions roles. It will usually spend a mere 25 second on Phase 2 if it DOES flip, then it will flip back to phase 1.

Predicting this stage is done simply by making educated guesses based on the timing and transition type, whether you have type 1 or 2. Between the If/Thens and reading the set time gaps, you can play here quite easily.

It is regrettable that the stage still seems to have some inherently random determinants, but by and large, it is quite easy to predict. Just be aware that every once in a while, it might screw you over.

T-block · Jul 20, 2010

Good thread.

It still upsets me that which phase sees more time is apparently random though (not necessarily saying this should affect starter status)... the amount of time spent on a certain phase can significantly influence the outcome of the match.

t3h Icy · Jul 20, 2010

I've lost a stock before (star KO) due to the stage flip. **** that stage. >_>

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jul 20, 2010

t3h Icy said:
I've lost a stock before (star KO) due to the stage flip. **** that stage. >_>

Did you even read what he posted? Don't be in a position where you're going to get star KO'd. "RC killed me because I was in specialfall above a part of it and it vanished".

T-block · Jul 20, 2010

no icy

the stage you want to complain about is YOSHI'S ISLAND BRAWL. **** that stage

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

I will still never agree with Orpheon being a starter. I don't care if it's a 1/100 chance that you'l be KO'd by the stage: that's still too much for a starter. And seeing as we already have a stage with walk-offs as a starter (Castle Siege), I'd rather have another stage with walk-offs then be forced to stay on one side of the rather small stage 30-34% of the time due to a ledgeless side.

Nevertheless, interesting information. Is there a way to tell which way the stage is going to flip? Like, going to Phase 2 it spins left, and going back to Phase 1 it spins right? Does it always spin a direction? Or is it random which direction?

Budget Player Cadet_ · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
I will still never agree with Orpheon being a starter. I don't care if it's a 1/100 chance that you'l be KO'd by the stage: that's still too much for a starter. And seeing as we already have a stage with walk-offs as a starter (Castle Siege), I'd rather have another stage with walk-offs then be forced to stay on one side of the rather small stage 30-34% of the time due to a ledgeless side.

Nevertheless, interesting information. Is there a way to tell which way the stage is going to flip? Like, going to Phase 2 it spins left, and going back to Phase 1 it spins right? Does it always spin a direction? Or is it random which direction?

There's not a 1/100 chance that you'll be KO'd. There's a 0/100 chance if you're not in exactly the wrong spot, a spot that, ideally, you'll never want to be in on any stage (offstage and next to the stage itself). If you play smart, you will never get killed by the stage itself.

Additionally, why don't you support the full stage starter list?

Gifts · Jul 20, 2010

Last tournament in doubles, I got killed as as the stage was about to switch. I spwaned, my parner was in trouble so I dropped down right away. The stage flipped and I freakin ended up under everything as G&W, yeah I gay'ed myself tbh. I don't believe Frigate should be a starter, the lack there of no ledge on the right side effects some characters like Olimar who can't recover on that side. Frigate should just be stickily a CP.

Good info though! I am interested in what Nidtendofreak said also about it flipping from form 1 and 2 differently.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
I will still never agree with Orpheon being a starter. I don't care if it's a 1/100 chance that you'l be KO'd by the stage: that's still too much for a starter. And seeing as we already have a stage with walk-offs as a starter (Castle Siege), I'd rather have another stage with walk-offs then be forced to stay on one side of the rather small stage 30-34% of the time due to a ledgeless side.

Nevertheless, interesting information. Is there a way to tell which way the stage is going to flip? Like, going to Phase 2 it spins left, and going back to Phase 1 it spins right? Does it always spin a direction? Or is it random which direction?

Everyone else already said it isn't random chance, so I don't know what's not to get here. You have to be in the path of the stage as it flips, to be killed. If that happens to you, too bad, so sad, it's no worse than getting chaingrabbed off a walkoff.

I'm going to look into the flip direction, and see if that affects anything beyond how you get dead.

I'll also be making a picture indicating where it IS and isn't safe to be when the stage flips.

Gifts said:
I don't believe Frigate should be a starter, the lack there of no ledge on the right side effects some characters like Olimar who can't recover on that side. Frigate should just be stickily a CP.

25% of the time, Olimar camps like a BEAST on both transitions, and the platforms will often be there to save him on transition 2. To top all this off, he pulls more purples on this stage. Transition 2 is godlike for Olimar, and if he's playing right, transition 1 should not present any problems. This is not a bad Olimar stage.

In fact, NO tether characters have a really legitimate argument against this stage. With good DI, ZSS can EASILY survive using her double jump (the best in the game, AND assisted by her tether), and her flip-jump recovery.

Ivysaur can just switch Pokemon.

Really, when the stage is often only on the first transition for 25% of the match, can you REALLY argue that that is enough to deny it starter status? Considering all the problems with Delfino's transitions, I don't think this is at all unreasonable.

Furthermore, the tether characters can just strike this stage, and it is a defensive strike, not one made because they have to. Delfino is a poorer choice because of the CLEAR dominance of Dedede and MK on it. Orpheon faces the problem with MK, but to a lesser extent.

Juushichi · Jul 20, 2010

I've been trying to pitch this over Delfino (maybe CS) too as a starter and you've summed up what I've been talking about. Another good point made, Raiziek.

Gifts · Jul 20, 2010

I won't lie to you, I wouldn't consider Delfino a starter either. On paper this stage seems good for Olimar, but trust my the right side on transition one will screw you over more in more ways than one. I can agree with you that transition 2 is uber good for Oli. The right side of transition one can also affect some characters like Falco, Marth, DK (not so sure on this one), and a few others I would assume. But like you said this part of the stage is only up 25% of the time so it is debatable. I'm not saying that this is a bad stage in anyway though, I sort of like it even if I had bad memories with it. xD

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

Budget Player Cadet_ said:
There's not a 1/100 chance that you'll be KO'd. There's a 0/100 chance if you're not in exactly the wrong spot, a spot that, ideally, you'll never want to be in on any stage (offstage and next to the stage itself). If you play smart, you will never get killed by the stage itself.

Additionally, why don't you support the full stage starter list?

I support a 9 starter system (FD, BF, SV, YI, Lylat, CS, Delfino, Halberd, PS1). However, I believe you will never, ever get a full list starter system. It would be too jarring of a change for various people. Can you imagine the reaction in the EC area to a change in the rule system like that? I also believe it would take too much time to go through all of the stages every time. Tournaments are already long enough. If you use a full list, you run the risk of people forgetting what the opponent strike'd when going through their strikes, and then trying to figure out why they have 3 stages left for the last strike, or other slip ups.

A 9 starter system allows for very few built in advantages for characters, except for the likes of MK and Snake, who will always have this. I'd rather compromise, have a 9 starter system, and a large CP section.

And honestly, I consider walk-off chaingrabs to be less disruptive overall for a starter stage then the flip. Walk-off chaingrabs are only a few characters, all but two at only low %s, and unless your the ICs it only works on certain characters. For example: G&W is not going to care if D3 takes him to Delfino. Nor is Jigglypuff, or the other light characters who can't be CG'd. However, any MU on Frigate is going to have to watch the flip. All it takes is on footstool just off stage at the right time and BAM, there is a Star KO. There is no aspect of "Maybe the opponent will mess up his CG and I can get out in time." It's one action for a potential OHKO. THAT is what I believe is too strong of a risk for a starter, no matter how tiny the odds. Normally I can accept another opinion when it comes to liberal stage lists, but this is one point I'm sticking to.

I would however love to see how large the OHKO range is. Because from my memory, it's actually a fairly large range.

T-block · Jul 20, 2010

but CS can kill you if you fall through the stage.

and that's nowhere near as predictable as frigate's kill

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

I would also say falling through the stage is more uncommon. I've never seen that happen before, either in real life or on wifi while I've been playing. I've seen Frigate kill people several times.

Amazing Ampharos · Jul 20, 2010

Starters aren't just interchangeable guys. Certain stages balance each other, and the system isn't really designed to work when you start changing them around or removing certain ones. Like Final Destination is not really a very "fair" stage at all, but if you have it in the stage striking system alongside both Halberd and Delfino Plaza, it balances itself out pretty well. When you do something like replace Delfino Plaza with Frigate Orpheon, it changes things. I'm not sure the ultimate effect of that, but it definitely has significant balance implications. You have to think that sort of thing through carefully.

Anyone who dies to Frigate Orpheon's flip doesn't understand the stage well. I used to die to the flip a lot back in 2008 when the game came out (G&W can't recover from under the stage), but then I decided I was sick of that so, instead of posting about how unfair it was on smashboards, I just sat down in training mode and messed around to see if I could avoid what was happening. It wasn't even that tricky; you have a ton of different solutions to avoid ever ending up under the stage which make it fairly impossible to stop you from being in at least one of them on reaction to the siren. It's kinda shocking anyone who takes this game seriously two years into the game's lifespan would still be dying as a result of stage actions on this stage. Starter or counterpick, this stage is going to be legal everywhere. If you die after a flip, it's not much different from just suiciding and likely costs you a match. Are you really willing to risk losing a tournament simply because you didn't spend a little time in training mode getting a feel for the stage? I don't understand it.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
I support a 9 starter system (FD, BF, SV, YI, Lylat, CS, Delfino, Halberd, PS1). However, I believe you will never, ever get a full list starter system. It would be too jarring of a change for various people. Can you imagine the reaction in the EC area to a change in the rule system like that? I also believe it would take too much time to go through all of the stages every time. Tournaments are already long enough. If you use a full list, you run the risk of people forgetting what the opponent strike'd when going through their strikes, and then trying to figure out why they have 3 stages left for the last strike, or other slip ups.

A 9 starter system allows for very few built in advantages for characters, except for the likes of MK and Snake, who will always have this. I'd rather compromise, have a 9 starter system, and a large CP section.

And honestly, I consider walk-off chaingrabs to be less disruptive overall for a starter stage then the flip. Walk-off chaingrabs are only a few characters, all but two at only low %s, and unless your the ICs it only works on certain characters. For example: G&W is not going to care if D3 takes him to Delfino. Nor is Jigglypuff, or the other light characters who can't be CG'd. However, any MU on Frigate is going to have to watch the flip. All it takes is on footstool just off stage at the right time and BAM, there is a Star KO. There is no aspect of "Maybe the opponent will mess up his CG and I can get out in time." It's one action for a potential OHKO. THAT is what I believe is too strong of a risk for a starter, no matter how tiny the odds. Normally I can accept another opinion when it comes to liberal stage lists, but this is one point I'm sticking to.

I would however love to see how large the OHKO range is. Because from my memory, it's actually a fairly large range.

Dedede chaingrabs over 2/3rd of the cast, IIRC. That's certainly more disruptive than 3 tether characters and a select few others.

Also, the safe zone REALLY IS absurdly huge. I'll do up a diagram for you in a few minutes, after I test out what influence the flip direction, if anything.

Let me put it to you this way: I have NEVER been Star KO'd by the stage, ever.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

It's a lot more characters then that who need to avoid the ledgeless side.

Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Ike, Link, Lucario, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, PT, Sheik, Yoshi, and Zelda are all going to feel it's effects quite heavily. Either they are going to have a lot of trouble making it back, or they are going to suffer heavy landing lag because of it.

Falcon, Diddy Kong, Falco, Fox, Ice Climbers, Peach, Samus, Snake, Toon Link, Wolf, and ZSS are all going to feel at least some negative effect due to the ledgeless side, most likely a cutting down of options for recovery, or some amount of landing lag most of the time.

G&W, Lucas, Luigi, Pikachu, and Sonic are largely unaffected.

Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Kirby, and Wario all get a small boost to their edgeguarding games. The multiple jumps/great air acceleration helps a lot, so they can go out there and harass those trying to recover.

Meta Knight, Pit, and R.O.B. on the other hand...yikes. Just...yikes. Why hello there major boost to edgeguarding game! Meta Knight I shouldn't need to explain at all. Pit's arrows are even more effective for harassing those trying to make it back, and his multiple jumps + multihitting air moves can just kill. R.O.B.'s laser + gyro combo is just a pain, particularly if combined with quick trips off stage using his Bair.

Now, throw in a MU like MK vs Marth here. Suddenly, that ledge becomes much more important. It forces Marth to stay on the left side any time the first stage is up, which limits his options and makes him predictable. See where I'm going with this?

inb4someonesaystheircharacterisn'tbadonthisstageeventhoughIhavethemlistedasstrugglingwiththeledge. I don't mean that one ledge = instant bad stage for them. I'm just saying it can heavily effect them, particularly in certain MUs.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
It's a lot more characters then that who need to avoid the ledgeless side.

Bowser, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Ike, Link, Lucario, Mario, Marth, Ness, Olimar, PT, Sheik, Yoshi, and Zelda are all going to feel it's effects quite heavily. Either they are going to have a lot of trouble making it back, or they are going to suffer heavy landing lag because of it.

Falcon, Diddy Kong, Falco, Fox, Ice Climbers, Peach, Samus, Snake, Toon Link, Wolf, and ZSS are all going to feel at least some negative effect due to the ledgeless side, most likely a cutting down of options for recovery, or some amount of landing lag most of the time.

G&W, Lucas, Luigi, Pikachu, and Sonic are largely unaffected.

Jigglypuff, King Dedede, Kirby, and Wario all get a small boost to their edgeguarding games. The multiple jumps/great air acceleration helps a lot, so they can go out there and harass those trying to recover.

Meta Knight, Pit, and R.O.B. on the other hand...yikes. Just...yikes. Why hello there major boost to edgeguarding game! Meta Knight I shouldn't need to explain at all. Pit's arrows are even more effective for harassing those trying to make it back, and his multiple jumps + multihitting air moves can just kill. R.O.B.'s laser + gyro combo is just a pain, particularly if combined with quick trips off stage using his Bair.

Now, throw in a MU like MK vs Marth here. Suddenly, that ledge becomes much more important. It forces Marth to stay on the left side any time the first stage is up, which limits his options and makes him predictable. See where I'm going with this?

inb4someonesaystheircharacterisn'tbadonthisstageeventhoughIhavethemlistedasstrugglingwiththeledge. I don't mean that one ledge = instant bad stage for them. I'm just saying it can heavily effect them, particularly in certain MUs.

injustpriortonitpicking

Sheik is actually not affected that badly thanks to the distance on her Up-B.

Lucario can wall cling, DK can just recover high if he has to, Yoshi has NO trouble (Super-armor anyone?) PT is a debatable case since Ivysaur gets *****, but Squirtle and Charizard are hardly that bad. Snake has no trouble, and there are numerous others I could nitpick.

All this is completely irrelevant though, because you completely miss the point of why this stage is included as a starter. Like AA said, we add the extra stages to balance out the heavy advantages granted to characters on stages like FD, SV, and BF. (All very flat, simple, and heavily favoring grounded characters) Frigate and Delfino are both stages that focus more on air game (Though this is heavily debatable on Delfino, thanks to the walk-offs, walls, water, etc.), so I feel that Frigate is clearly the better choice.

Let me ask you a question, Nidtendo. Have you even taken the time to learn the stage and play it correctly? I've played plenty of games against Nysyarc, one of your fellow Ike mains, on this stage. In fact, with 9 starters, we usually have game 1 here! He doesn't have any trouble with it, nor do I expect him to, because he learned the stage.

Yes, the ledge is an inhibitor, but that's part of the DESIGN.

Also, thus far, I can't really see any pattern to why the stage flips a particular direction, but I've got 3 more trial runs coming to evaluate it.

Oh, and to add further to this: On your MK vs. Marth example: Is this ANY different than a character with no projectile having to play on FD? It's a heavy disadvantage, plain and simple, but people like to conveniently ignore the fact that their "neutrals" skew match-ups in absurd manners.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

Seeing as I'm the guy testing all of the stages for the Ike boards in the bi-weeklies/off-line, I can safely say yes I have tested on this stage. A fair bit actually. Problem when it comes to Ike is that he has three arguable "bad" stages. However, for all three of those stages, there are several people who love them. Frigate has Nys who likes it, and other people who don't mind it. SV has, well, most Ike mains not minding it and me just hating that stage, though I think they would agree that there are often better choices. FD has me liking the stage, and the other Ikes having various opinions of it.

Sheik's Up-B distance isn't that great. It's less then Zelda's when I last checked, and has the same problem of limited mobility upon coming out of the smoke

Lucario's wall cling I did forget about. My bad.

Yoshi has trouble. If his double jump doesn't make it up and over, he's basically screwed. There is also the fact that the heavy armor runs out just before the double jump ends (the last Yoshi I played, I took all three of his stocks with D-tilt. Hurry for Ike's spiking dtilt vs Yoshi's huge nose that puts him in range before he can grab the ledge). What is he going to do if his double jump don't carry him far enough vertical? He only gets a boost out of the first egg toss, assuming that the opponent doesn't just swat him away as the heavy armor ends.

DK has either the worse or second worse vertical recovery in the game. He's going to have trouble.

Snake has to take an extra C4 in most cases to make it back. That sucks for obvious reasons.

Squirtle is iffy, depends on how low he was. Charizard is in a similar boat, but not as bad.

Frigate I find does not focus more on the air game. It focuses more on edgeguarding for apparently 30-34% of the time, and then it's a platform based game for the rest of the time.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where you guys are coming from. I'd probably put Frigate as the 10th best choice for a starter. Problem is: the system works with 9, and I don't see a usable 11th.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
Seeing as I'm the guy testing all of the stages for the Ike boards in the bi-weeklies/off-line, I can safely say yes I have tested on this stage. A fair bit actually. Problem when it comes to Ike is that he has three arguable "bad" stages. However, for all three of those stages, there are several people who love them. Frigate has Nys who likes it, and other people who don't mind it. SV has, well, most Ike mains not minding it and me just hating that stage, though I think they would agree that there are often better choices. FD has me liking the stage, and the other Ikes having various opinions of it.

Does this at all affect the legitimacy of the stage? I'm not convinced that this simply isn't a matter of you being bad at this stage, since you continually stress problems with getting star KO'd.

Fun fact: I TRIED to get star KO'd during testing just to see how difficult it is, and I couldn't do it successfully. You literally have to end up in this ONE small band about as wide as Marth is, to die. And even if you, do, depending on your location, I'm pretty sure it pushes you off before you can get roofed.

Sheik's Up-B distance isn't that great. It's less then Zelda's when I last checked, and has the same problem of limited mobility upon coming out of the smoke.

It's less than Zelda's, but only by a little bit. It actually goes deceptively far, and nearly all characters suffer vulnerability after recovering, so it's a moot point.

Lucario's wall cling I did forget about. My bad.

Yoshi has trouble. If his double jump doesn't make it up and over, he's basically screwed. There is also the fact that the heavy armor runs out just before the double jump ends (the last Yoshi I played, I took all three of his stocks with D-tilt. Hurry for Ike's spiking dtilt vs Yoshi's huge nose that puts him in range before he can grab the ledge). What is he going to do if his double jump don't carry him far enough vertical? He only gets a boost out of the first egg toss, assuming that the opponent doesn't just swat him away as the heavy armor ends.

Why is this Yoshi recovering low? Yoshi is floaty as BALLS, and if he's DI'ing right, he should NEVER have to come up from below the ledge.

DK has either the worse or second worse vertical recovery in the game. He's going to have trouble.

This also happens for DK on the majority of stages in the game. He usually had trouble recovering, but as said before, recover high and land on the left side. DK's momentum breaking is intense.

Snake has to take an extra C4 in most cases to make it back. That sucks for obvious reasons.

Double jump into Cypher gives you enough momentum to clear the vertical blastzone. You aren't recovering properly. Even if you DO mess it up, he still has c4 as a backup, which is certainly less damage than you'd take getting edge-guarded.

Squirtle is iffy, depends on how low he was. Charizard is in a similar boat, but not as bad

This is the one I said is debatable, but PT would almost certainly strike this anyway due to Ivysaur.

Frigate I find does not focus more on the air game. It focuses more on edgeguarding for apparently 30-34% of the time, and then it's a platform based game for the rest of the time.

This I will give you. It's a stage that focuses on different things, so what is the problem really? Delfino is also heavily ground based on the majority of it's transitions.

Don't get me wrong, I can see where you guys are coming from. I'd probably put Frigate as the 10th best choice for a starter. Problem is: the system works with 9, and I don't see a usable 11th.

To be honest, I'd be fine with adding Rainbow Cruise or even Brinstar as an 11th, for pure air focus, but that's too far out for most people, despite being logically sound.

ADHD · Jul 20, 2010

The stage launched a bomb-omb into my face when it flipped.

Please note.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

I've never said that I've been star KO'd here. As far as I can remember, I haven't been. On the other hand, I've seen a good number of star KOs. Without a doubt more then people getting stuck under CS. I've also seen more star KOs then I've had the blast-off glitch occur to me, and I've mained Ike since day one, and that glitch can happen on no less then three stages.

And frankly, it's always easy to say "Just DI up". Problem is, there are moves that send you basically purely horizontal, if not somewhat downwards at the same time. That's also why the said Yoshi ended up getting Dtilt'd three times. Each time I either hit him with Fair or Ftilt, and sent him out to the blastzone edge. Those two moves don't have much in the way of vertical knockback, it's mainly horizontal.

The Spacies and Zelda/Sheik have particularly bad horizontal movement upon going into freefall out of their Up Bs, which is why I mentioned Sheik's.

Juushichi · Jul 20, 2010

^ Holy **** @ ADHD. I got ninja'd by Niddo.

Also, Mario mains generally have no problem with Frigate. In fact, barring certain matchups, I certainly love Frigate.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

Nidtendofreak said:
I've never said that I've been star KO'd here. As far as I can remember, I haven't been. On the other hand, I've seen a good number of star KOs. Without a doubt more then people getting stuck under CS. I've also seen more star KOs then I've had the blast-off glitch occur to me, and I've mained Ike since day one, and that glitch can happen on no less then three stages.

And frankly, it's always easy to say "Just DI up". Problem is, there are moves that send you basically purely horizontal, if not somewhat downwards at the same time. That's also why the said Yoshi ended up getting Dtilt'd three times. Each time I either hit him with Fair or Ftilt, and sent him out to the blastzone edge. Those two moves don't have much in the way of vertical knockback, it's mainly horizontal.

The Spacies and Zelda/Sheik have particularly bad horizontal movement upon going into freefall out of their Up Bs, which is why I mentioned Sheik's.

Alright, then I'll ask you to find me some replays of people getting star KO'd in tournament sets where both players are playing competently. I've yet to see any, only in lolfriendlies with items.

Also, I've finished my 5 extra trial runs, and I have mixed feelings about some of the results, but at the same time, I can now confidently discuss some patterns on the timer. I just have to full process it, I'll add it to the OP and make a note of the update later.

Nidtendofreak · Jul 20, 2010

Dude, this was a long time ago. Nor do I have an ability to transfer stuff from an SD card to my laptop: no SD card reader. I can't produce stuff on command.

However, I do remember at least one being in a match about as serious as you can get on wifi. Which isn't saying much, but it's still there. While the rest were most likely in lolfriendlies: that's still more then CS issues, or Blast-off glitches.

I should finish up my Pirate Ship research, so I can enjoy being on the other end of one of these arguments.

T-block · Jul 20, 2010

Squirtle is hurt pretty bad by the lack of ledge. Charizard less so because he has a glide, but characters like ROB/MK will be able to still give Charizard a lot of grief since his glide is so slow.

That said, even with Ivysaur, I wouldn't consider this an auto-strike for PT.

global-wolf · Jul 20, 2010

Being next to the stage isn't the only way to get KO'd. I was near the top right blastzone once after being knocked there. I had already momentum cancelled but I was still out of view. Then the stage flipped and I died. I'm 100% certain that if the stage hadn't flipped I would have survived.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

global-wolf said:
Being next to the stage isn't the only way to get KO'd. I was near the top right blastzone once after being knocked there. I had already momentum cancelled but I was still out of view. Then the stage flipped and I died. I'm 100% certain that if the stage hadn't flipped I would have survived.

I don't think you can be 100% certain of that. It's quite possible that your momentum carried you out, even after breaking. It's also possible that you DID get hit by the stage, in which case, you got out played by your opponent, since he hit you into a danger area before the stage flip.

global-wolf · Jul 20, 2010

No, it flipped a second after I skull bashed, so it was the stage. Also, I was just pointing out that next to the stage isn't the only place to get killed.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

global-wolf said:
No, it flipped a second after I skull bashed, so it was the stage. Also, I was just pointing out that next to the stage isn't the only place to get killed.

I don't think I said it was the ONLY place, but basically what it comes down to is that there's a narrow RING, sort of thing that is the path the stage takes when it flips, where you risked getting pushed underneath it or star KO'd. Really, if you're paying attention, you shouldn't ever be killed by it.

-LzR- · Jul 20, 2010

People really complain about the stages "hazard"?
Lol

ADHD · Jul 20, 2010

Ahvena said:
People really complain about the stages "hazard"?
Lol

Did I NOT just state a bomb-omb flew at my face? I died at 40, hardly see how that's fair.

I even tried teching it on the invisible wall during the stage transition.

Gifts · Jul 20, 2010

ADHD said:
Did I NOT just state a bomb-omb flew at my face? I died at 40, hardly see how that's fair.

I even tried teching it on the invisible wall during the stage transition.

No I was watching that match. You did tech the invisible wall but another bomb-omb flew out of no where KO'ing you. D:

ADHD · Jul 20, 2010

Gifts said:
No I was watching that match. You did tech the invisible wall but another bomb-omb flew out of no where KO'ing you. D:

Oh yeah. I plucked the 2nd bomb-omb and then peach chucked a light saber up into me, exploding it in my hands then killing me.

This stage needs to be banned.

Raziek · Jul 20, 2010

As hilarious as this is, I'm going to kindly ask you two to refrain from the jokes in a topic dedicated to research/debate.

~Firefly~ · Jul 21, 2010

Yoshi doesn't really have problems recovering on the ledge-less side...even if I do get sent straight out to the right, egg tossing a couple times before DJing gives me plenty of room to work with. If Yoshi's getting Dtilt spiked by Ike for all 3 stocks in one match, he's doing something wrong. =s

T-block · Jul 21, 2010

Yoshi is also completely broken on this stage with iNsTaNt Ko EgG rOlL

KrazyGlue · Jul 23, 2010

The star KO thing happened to a friend and I today. We were fighting some computer players for fun. My friend grabbed a CPU Ike below the center platform of the phase 2 stage. When the stage flipped, my friend was star KO'd but the computer was unharmed. What's the explanation?

(By the way, this does not mean in any way I think Frigate Orpheon is broken or whatever.)

-Mr. T- · Jul 23, 2010

wow, this mustve taken you forever... but good info.

sneakytako · Aug 4, 2010

There is a flaw with the reasoning that 'you should never get screwed and die by this stage if you know what you're doing' because as a ROB main, I can try and force you to move to the 'bad regions' while the stage is flashing before flipping, and even if I also get flipped, ROB recovers from everything and I win. Stage flipping is still janky, but not nearly as janky as walkoffs imo. (although this stage technically has walkoffs lol)

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