MU Export #1: Ice Climbers

heya ^_^

So in our MU thread you can see we have quite a few MUs that need finalizing of MUs/rediscussing and since the MU thread is at a dead stop yet again why not start chipping away at these. In this MU Export thread we are trying to get an approximation on the MU ratio and how each side does in the MU. This is not supposed to be a thread for arguing if a ratio is 5 points off. Please no trolling or flaming. Be nice to both sides and try to stay on track. Now let's kick this off ;D

Ice Climbers​

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Quick Tips:
D-air to D-tilt Lock % (SoPo): 70
Magnetable Projectiles:
--Blizard: 45-90%

General MU:
-Don't get grabbed.
--Be careful when doing anything to their shield and retreat everything properly
--N-air is very good on IC's however, don't do it on a full sheild. Only do it when you know it will sheild poke or else you will be pivot grabbed.
-If they do grab you mash buttons like it's the end of the world, Lucas is one of the hardest chars to chaingrab. (This doesn't affect the ratio though, this is just a general tip)
-Separate them!
--N-air and PKT/PKT2 are godly at separateing the IC's (however, PKT is risky b/c you might get grabbed)
-Once they are separated:

Chuee said:

Once they're separated you have to ward off popo and go for nana. If nana is still onstage ward of the controlled one with ftilt or PKF. When nana runs towards popo, use Fsmash or Dsmash. Nana is controlled by an AI and will run into anything to get back to popo.

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-Blizzard heals us, but they usually use it desynched so if you try to asorb it you will likely get grabbed. So try to get hit by the last hits and DI away to avoid getting grabbed.
-PK Fire when they desynch blizzard
-

Hylian said:

Uair goes through everything, not just dair, yes you have no simple way to kill nana, lucas doesn't have the tools to keep ics seperated easily, pkt is ok against them offstage it's really not that hard to get back, and you're not sure about nair being pivot grabbed because you've never played a good IC lol. Most of lucas's moves can be pivot grabbed by IC's. Full hopped dair is easily countered by just uairing, IC's uair does over 20% and combos into itself for over 40% of damage from 0, falling nair combos into grab, uair frametraps airdodges, interchanging full hopped blizzards with aireals doesn't let lucas absorb anything and sets up for grabs if lucas trys to...Ton of things.

I mean SINGLE climber can Chaingrab lucas till 76%. Single climber also has a walking cg on lucas with dthrow for a pretty long time, till past 50% before IC's have to start dashing IIRC.

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-Off stage and on platforms are good for Lucas
-If the IC's are off stage then:
--If they are high up and use side-B, U-smash them.
--If they recover low, PKT
-Kill Nana and camp the s*** out of Popo.
--He's either stuck suiciding and losing a stock or ends up timing out when you have the lead.

Stages:
Strike: FINAL DESTINATION, Lylat Cruise or Yoshi's Island
Ban: Final Destination, Final Destination or Final Destination. (Did I mention Final Destianation?)
CP: Rainbow Cruise, Battle Field, Norfair, Brinstar

Frame Data:
Desynch ruins everything Stupid Sakurai
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Written by rPSI

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**Random note** I actually had an rPSI seal of approval but stupid aim lost the pic ;_; Ah well.

Enjoy

I still think this match-up is even.

Their camping game is obviously better than us, so don't try to outcamp them.
If you really need it, you could absorb their blizzards. Chances are they're interchanging with full hops, so I would suggest full hopping, PSI magnet, and just PSI Magnet cancel with a jump. If you do that, they can't grab you because you're not on the ground, and you should be able to get out fast enough as not to take damage.

Off stage is where we win. Once you get them off stage, I would PKT edgeguard. If you do it right, you can split them up, making it harder for them to recover.
Another way of splitting them up is Nair. If you actually catch them with Nair, it usually sends them in opposite directions. Once you split them up, you should definitely go for Nana, considering she's the CPU.

IC's best aerial is Uair. Watch out for it - it combos into itself, racks up damage, and is a good platform poker.

Obviously, don't get grabbed. But I heard that IC mains' have trouble chain grabbing us because of our messed up physics

Stage Striking: Final Destination, Yoshi's Island
Counterpicking: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Norfair
Ban: Final Destination

You should definitely add this into the OP.

Edgeguard them w/ PKT and sometimes PKF all day

and don't be stupid and try to magnet Blizzard, you'll get grabbed.

_proxy_ said:

Edgeguard them w/ PKT and sometimes PKF all day

and don't be stupid and try to magnet Blizzard, you'll get grabbed.

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OMG you make it seem like you can't magnet cancel into a roll. But if you notice they are doing it desynch and Nana will be grabbing you DURING the Blizzard, don't be afraid to end it early and SDI the blizzard or just don't do it.

lucas vs ICs:

Hope the IC doesn't know how to CG lucas.

pretty much it

Teh Future said:

lucas vs ICs:

Hope the IC doesn't know how to CG lucas.

pretty much it

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Thank goodness they never do.

Teh Future said:

lucas vs ICs:

Hope the IC doesn't know how to CG lucas.

pretty much it

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Great Input!

Chuee said:

Great Input!

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Tbf it was the most realistic thing that has been said in this thread. As rPSI noted, magnetting blizzard is incredibly risky and tbh, stupid.

Lucas is awkward to cg, but once people learn how to cg diddy, lucas is a cakewalk.
You should probably note that you shouldn't be playing around on the edge or go under it for any reason with the climbers on stage. Ice blocks **** lucas and his recovery. If you get hit by one off stage, chances are you won't be able to recover.
Match-up wise, Lucas isn't the hardest to grab. He's significantly easier pressure with desyncs and he's not the best at avoiding a grab, especially since a good amount of his moves can be pivot grabbed. IC's Uair stops most aerials as well as their Utilt. If the IC is competent, they won't just be alternating full hopped blizzard walls. The risk to reward is not in the favor of your magnet so you should probably not try using it on blizzard. In most cases it will be grabbed. Many of Lucas' attacks do separate, but getting them to connect is the hard part. Even if you do land them and separate them and manage to kill Nana, as Hylian said, Sopo can single Dthrow cg until until almost 80%. Granted more than likely the IC will hit the ledge before that that percent, but even then, Lucas can be hit with a smash or a Dtilt>ice block gimp(with no di.)
60:40 IC at the least if the IC is good and knows how to cg Lucas.
45:55 Lucas if the IC doesn't know the MU and can't cg.

00-Zero said:

Lucas is awkward to cg, but once people learn how to cg diddy, lucas is a cakewalk.
You should probably note that you shouldn't be playing around on the edge or go under it for any reason with the climbers on stage. Ice blocks **** lucas and his recovery. If you get hit by one off stage, chances are you won't be able to recover.

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Why are we getting hit by a move with a very limited trajectory?

Match-up wise, Lucas isn't the hardest to grab. He's significantly easier pressure with desyncs and he's not the best at avoiding a grab, especially since a good amount of his moves can be pivot grabbed. IC's Uair stops most aerials as well as their Utilt.

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It's like we never retreat our aerials.

Oh wait.

If the IC is competent, they won't just be alternating full hopped blizzard walls. The risk to reward is not in the favor of your magnet so you should probably not try using it on blizzard.

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Blizzard walls don't really do much since we can just PK Fire them. So yes, I entirely agree with this part.

In most cases it will be grabbed. Many of Lucas' attacks do separate, but getting them to connect is the hard part. Even if you do land them and separate them and manage to kill Nana, as Hylian said, Sopo can single Dthrow cg until until almost 80%.

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That's frame perfect **** you're dealing with dude, no one is frame perfect that far. In the realm of practicality, you should really be getting us up to 40 and having trouble after that. Oh and that's also assuming you grab us at 0 because of the way stale moves affects the d-throw CG so if you grab us at a higher percent, you're not going to be CGing us that far with d-throw.

Granted more than likely the IC will hit the ledge before that that percent, but even then, Lucas can be hit with a smash or a Dtilt>ice block gimp(with no di.)

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ಠ_ಠ

Sure enough it has limited trajectory, but that trajectory can be moved as well. All it takes is one ice block to take your jump. I was just saying that you should be careful when you're on the ledge with the ice climbers are on stage. You're speaking as if every Lucas players will never get hit with an ice block. It's not as hard as you make it seem, especially in the aforementioned situation with Lucas on, level to, or under the ledge. But I guess you could give me a counter argument of something like "oh what are we doing on or under the ledge..derp"

I'm aware you retreat your aerials lol. Does that make the statement about your approaching with aerials being grabbable false?

The SoPo cg isn't as impossible as you make it seem. With a fresh Dthrow at higher percents, you're right. You won't be cg'd. But fresh at 0%-25% you can be walking cg'd and dash grabbed after 25%. It doesn't have to be very stale but at least somewhat staled to be able to dash grab you after a Dthrow between 25%-40%. I'm not saying SoPo beats Lucas. I'm just explaining some things he can use to get an edge.

Oh and that last part, I was saying if we do grab you with SoPo at a low percentage, we'll more than likely hit the end of the stage before we can get you all the way up to 75%.
If we get you to the ledge at low percents, we can either smash attack or Dtilt you after the Dthrow to put you in an unfavorable position (in which case, if you decide to not di correctly, or at all, you can be gimped by an ice block.)

I know exactly what you're saying, and I appreciate it. I'm just saying that 60:40 is harsh for the MU, when Lucas definitely has the tools to fight the Ice Climbers.

But it is also extremely stage dependent. Like I could easily say that IC's 70:30 Lucas on FD simply because of how extreme the MU becomes skewed. But on stages Lylat, the tilting and the platforms can easily change that into a 50:50 MU. : /

I don't see why absorbing blizzards is such a bad idea ._. If you full hop it, you would avoid getting grabbed; if you cancel it, you won't get hit, no??

Well i had to do this matchup once again in tourney recently. BF than FD. No i didnt ban FD cause i wasnt worried about it.

ICs camping lucas? Not really. He throws Ice blocks and u just walk and powershield. At mid range hes prolly gonna do something else otherwise hes gonna take a hit. If they remain to throw ice blocks, PK fire the blocks and the second hit will shoot off the blocks hittin them. U can start ur offense here if u want.

Offstage.....its destruction. U have everything in the world to stop them from coming back. Recently i found even more ridiculous crap to do to them lmao. PKT if u tap them just once correctly, they are not coming back. if they side b above u, u can upsmash or uair. If its popo u can just fsmash afterwards or dthrow if u can kill with it. If not in kill range, u can either just fsmash anyway, PSI magnet being it sends them sideways and not upwards AT ALL, or just throw off stage. If they try to up-b to grab the ledge, u can either run off and nair (yes i said run off lmao) or if ur comfortable with that PKT. If u just grab ledge, u can just gimp nana or both with a falling nair.

Onstage to me is the fun part. Yes of course we're worried about the grab but if u play correctly u wont get grabbed. Trust me. Lucas, if u check frame data, U wont be grabbed doing most of ur aerials. Uair has a huge wide hitbox from i believe behind him. in this vid here at 2:49 Retreating Rising Uair is safe on block. So is rising fair if done correctly. Jab should be used very very rarely cause it has the least amount of range in ur ground attacks. It also has no pushback so it'll be easy to grab. Try to forget this move when doing this matchup. Yes i have used it but u have to spaced like hell to not get punished for it. Nair on full shield? I still do it. cause they have to guess whether ur gonna go into them or not. Have fun IC players lmao. Nair twice on shield is guaranteed to shield poke. I used nair on full shield at 3:15ish on that video. He tried to grab and got ftilted <3. Fsmash and dsmash are safe on block unless its powershielded. But for both nana and popo to powershield is well......lulz


I have alot of fun in this matchup cause its so FEEERRRAAAYYYYYY and it gives them this face

Not a fan of ratios too much. Lets see.

I've done this matchup from both sides. My lucas vs u kno who plus some others and my ICs vs Tyr.

If both players kno the matchup i'd still say lucas wins this one FRAAYYYY.

*disregardpost* i fail

Why do people keep saying Lucas is weird to CG? CG timings are dependent on weight class (whatever weight means in this game)... there's nothing special about Lucas that makes the frame windows smaller or anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hylian said:

No it's actually really easy compared to the normal alt grabs.

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: /

I've never actually seen it done, and I read the thread and e_a said it was just the realm in which everything is perfect. Not in the realm of reality. and getting the CG @ 80 percent by that point is frame perfect.

But yes, we should be expecting to get at least 40 by the time we reach the end of the stage.

T-block said:

Why do people keep saying Lucas is weird to CG? CG timings are dependent on weight class (whatever weight means in this game)... there's nothing special about Lucas that makes the frame windows smaller or anything.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Well, there are several factors that come into CG timings. One is hurtbox size. Lucas when he curls up during hitstun is amazingly small. This is also why he is one of the very few (I think only Ness and Lucas) that can DI down out of Zelda's u-smash. Air mobility and floatiness also factors in too.

Hmm...that's news to me lol

Hurtbox makes sense... I don't see how air mobility and floatiness would affect it though.

faster fallers have a faster dthrow/bthrow animation. increased weight = longer dthrow/bthrow animation.

air mobility? idk might affect it but I don't see how tbh

Ok so ppl can stop pondering about it. Lucas/ Ness is more troublesome to CG for the same reasons u guys would rather hobble snake/rob than the normal CGs. The small but heavy trait.

i think ness and lucas are the easiest to CG

you just have to make sure nana is positioned correctly before trying to bthrow

as far as the matchup goes i have no experience lol
I'd imagine that it would be even at best for lucas tho

GIMR did the same to me. It just takes practice. I'm sure most IC's aren't practicing CGing Lucas though when most of their time could be spent practicing their CG's on characters they are more likely to face.