BBR Weekly Character Discussion #11: Lucario

I want Mewtwo back.

I just hacked Mewtwo over him. Made me feel a lot better.

He's got some great tools. Transcendent priority is always nice to have, and he gets progressively stronger as the match goes on. However he doesn't seem to perform as well in tournaments as this would suggest. I think a lot of it has to do with Lucario being a character heavily reliant on momentum, and if it shifts in the opponent's favor, he's in trouble. Personally, I would drop him a couple of spots, perhaps to the top of mid-tier, but he's still a pretty good choice in tournaments. He only has a few bad matchups, he's just outperformed in many aspects by other characters.

The only true negative to Lucario is the fact that his Up-b is the only one in the game that has no hitbox. That leads him to get edgeguarded pretty hard which is why he has trouble with characters like D3 and DK who can just hit him off and throw hitboxes out there. I don't know much about this character...so I can't really input more than that.

I think Lucario is in a good spot where he is at the moment. He should probably always stay nearby the other characters he is currently coupled with.

The main reason that he will likely never rise or fall very much is that Lucario as a character isn't actually all that good, but his Aura is overpowered as all get out. So you take a character that's not very good and give it one of the most overpowered mechanics in the game and you get something that is just a bit above average.

Aside from Aura power, he has:

That ridiculous roll of his, aura sphere, f-air, d-air, u-tilt, an insanely fast grab (but fairly short range), and that's mostly it I think.

Those moves are pretty good, but by themselves not enough to be much more than decent. It's just that when he gets Aura power, he kills you in like 2 hits and it's ridiculous, so that makes him quite good despite actually being mediocre.

He shoots blue stuff. Sounds good to me.

The Real Inferno said:

I just hacked Mewtwo over him. Made me feel a lot better.

He's got some great tools. Transcendent priority is always nice to have, and he gets progressively stronger as the match goes on. However he doesn't seem to perform as well in tournaments as this would suggest. I think a lot of it has to do with Lucario being a character heavily reliant on momentum, and if it shifts in the opponent's favor, he's in trouble. Personally, I would drop him a couple of spots, perhaps to the top of mid-tier, but he's still a pretty good choice in tournaments. He only has a few bad matchups, he's just outperformed in many aspects by other characters.

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What transcendent priority?


I really don't recall any of his move having any.

swordgard said:

What transcendent priority?


I really don't recall any of his move having any.

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Fsmash's sweet spot. I think there's another one but I don't remember at the moment.

As far as I understand, aura is transcendent and you can only clank with Lucario's limbs on attacks.

The Real Inferno said:

As far as I understand, aura is transcendent and you can only clank with Lucario's limbs on attacks.

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I do recall all of his attacks clanking with the tornado O.o

F-Smash defnitely beats tornado...

swordgard said:

I do recall all of his attacks clanking with the tornado O.o

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Not the aura bits, from what I know.

Lucario is so freaking annoying. My least fun matchup to play in the game.

Lucario puzzles me sometimes at how people place so with him at times. Then i remember how he ***** spotdodges with his smashes and then im like oooooooo yeah. Thats when hes good. When people forget to shield.

gallax said:

Lucario puzzles me sometimes at how people place so with him at times. Then i remember how he ***** spotdodges with his smashes and then im like oooooooo yeah. Thats when hes good. When people forget to shield.

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900000x THIS!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, Lucario is a gimmick and a half. He can grab you if he gets close enough, but his baiting tools suck, he can't use an offensive tool against a crouching opponent except forward roll (LOL), he doesn't get gimped if he recovers high, but can be edgeguarded, etc.

Pretty much, Aura is amazing, and people get hit by Fsmash a lot for some reason. MK's that don't know the MU get *****, but MKs that do know the MU (like me) destroy all instances of this character. Case in point, Ksizzle beats M2k with Lucario, but I typically win rather solidly.

Lucario doesn't destroy most characters. He seems good against Pikachu, but I can beat Lucario with even Jigglypuff, and I feel he outright LOSES to Mario. Not even close to top tier material.

His Utilt is his fastest move at F5. Grab is F6 with Jab. Dtilt is F8 I think. I haven't reviewed his Frame Data in a while, but the point is that his close range moves are underwhelming, so he's deceptively BAD at close combat when fighting others good at it. He can roll around to escape and land stupid trades to annoy you, but other than that, he's just trying to crunch enemy approaches and punish landings and dodges that needn't happen.

Mediocre character at large.

So what are some tips about abusing Lucario? Just...get him off the ledge/stay in his face?

Eh, he is slow. All his moves have heavy start up, but he can roll out of pressure. Once inside, apply pressure and read the inevitable roll. Easier said than done, of course.

If I were Pikachu, I would just pivot grab approaches, camp Utilt and Fsmash, and just treat it like Marth. Run in and shield is also good.

Id just use dedede.

Oh, also, let's clear something up.

MK destroys Lucario. MKs just seem to suck at this MU. You cannot Dair camp him, do not run into Fsmash, COVER ROLL, zone before approaching, DI Dair, and L2 juggle and gimp. SERIOUSLY!

I'm pretty much in agreement with MMM.
It's really just the aura that helps Lucario at all.

Especially against characters who have trouble KOing him. IE: A good chunk of the cast after A-tier.

Espy Kasrani said:

I'm pretty much in agreement with MMM.
It's really just the aura that helps Lucario at all.

Especially against characters who have trouble KOing him. IE: A good chunk of the cast after A-tier.

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This.
It is a case where everyone below him just sucks.

Ah, Lucario.
I know this character well.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he's nothing but gimmicks, as implies by Pierce. However, much like Snake, he's massively overhyped by people that run into his stuff. I've actually two- and three-stocked some notable Lucario mains (which is REALLY hard to do with that darn aura of his).

My best friend plays Lucario. The fact that my best matchups (outside of MK, who by far gets the most practice) are Lucario and G&W should tell you something about my playstyle; I learned not to get hit by smashes a loooong time ago. xD

Lucario's issue is that he's slow. He doesn't have anything that comes out fast OOS. Utilt surprises people trying to cross up, and dair OOS stops working when the opponent learns to SDI.

I've seen some really silly things with SDI...one time I performed a Peach Dair on Xefnir (Lucario main), and he SDI'd up into a dair, which I SDI'd up into a nair.

Lucario's fsmash is overrated; VERY easy to powershield. Unless he's spacing it to keep you out in which case it's more of a barrier than something he's trying to actually hit you with. Fsmash never kills me outside of a read; it's important to emphasize that some kill moves (think Snake utilt) can be used as a punishment, while others require your opponent to predict you (Lucario fsmash).


But anyway; Lucario is an entirely solid character against most of the cast...but just gets completely wrecked against MK, as Pierce noted. He also gets utterly demolished against Dedede, who grabs through all of his spacing tools, CG's him offstage and edgeguards him badly. It's like Snake vs Dedede without grenades. >_<

ESAM said:

The only true negative to Lucario is the fact that his Up-b is the only one in the game that has no hitbox.

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Ivysaur.
And his recovery isn't that bad. He can almost always get back, he just has to deliberately dive into attacks and DI up sometimes. Unless they are Dedede. Even on MK; as long as you space to not get hit by dair, you can DI or SDI all of his other moves up.

People don't footstool wall-clinging Lucarios enough though.

Lucario.. Ehh I'll get at this tomorrow. I need to sleep.

Lucario would higher on the tier list if Azen still played.

Perhaps.. He's still a lot more limited than most people think. It is all about quick maneuverability into perfect spaced grabs (bc his grab range is trash but it is really quick) or perfectly spaced jabs. His jab has really good range. Utilt is decent but still doesn't really have any good followups (unless you hit with the later part of it) which is generally pretty unsafe. Lucario's pivot running grab should be used a LOT. It ups his grab range a lot plus gets him away which he needs. Usually with Lucario I find myself getting in, getting a hit, then shielding waiting for a punish bc of his poor folllow up speed. You can't really punish well oos. His Fair looks broken on paper but is easily baited and punish. You really have to mindgame your opponent and get them off the ground. If you can force a jump his fair reliably can combo into dair/nair. I think the future of Lucario will be consistently moving around with sh'd b reversals then airdodging behind the opponent right before you land to a jab or grab. Jab is his best move imo.. you just have to use it and be READY to follow your opponents di. If they di away finish the jab combo, if they di behind just grab them. Lucario is a very reaction based character. Dtilt is really good and underused. It works wonders by the ledge and after the first two hits of a jab if they di it up(which they usually will). I never spam Fsmash and try to avoid using it until the opponent is at a high percent. For one it will be decayed and it isn't a good move to be spammed at ALL. Very very easy to run/walk up and powershield and punish. Fsmash works well when rarely used and catches people really well who try to airdodge to the ground for speed. Lucario should always dthrow imo.. It does 10 freaking damage which is especially good at the beginning of the match when a fully charged Aura sphere does I think.. 9%.... It also sets them in a good position for a follow up and gives you time to re-space yourself and get a small aura charge. Dair isn't as good as people think. It is so easy to sdi. I use it literally everytime i get hit though bc you can float away with it which makes it safe bc there is a huge hitbox out while you are getting away. You can di towards them with it and follow with another dair. Double team is a really bad move and only really useful against Pikachu. Usmash is really bad I almost never use it. Generally every Fsmash should be replaced with a WELL spaced ftilt. Lucario really has to just throw out attacks that are fast and spaced to the point that it may not even hit. Dash attack is one of his better moves especially if you can land behind their shield with it, but it should be used sparingly. Dsmash is just as good as Fsmash imo. Hits both sides and is a good bit faster than fsmash. I generally use dsmash around the center of the stage and for kills and I hit opponents coming with the ledge with a Fsmash. Jab jab to Shutter stepped back Fsmash is the only time I will just throw out a fsmash. I'm pretty sure it retains the original hitbox of the fsmash as if you never shutter stepped backwards! (May be wrong, I was told this by Ksizzle) Lucario doesn't really have solid approaches.. I usually will just walk/crawl somewhat close to my opponent and be ready to powershield to jab or i just shorthop at them and b reverse away to airdodge.. then jump away or roll. He has a lot of gimmicks, but I still think he is very solid and underrated character. Lucario is obviously much better if you have REALLY good di which kind of adds him to the "Your character is only good as the player using him category" Lucario played very smart with great di can be a very scary thing.. I think his best level is no doubt Yoshis. I also think he does amazing on Battlefield and Smashfield especially with platform cancelling. He's good on Fd bc he can live really long here, but it is just really hard to make openings on this level with Lucario. I generally find myself camping and trying to run out the timer on this level. The main goal of fighting Lucario is to get him offstage and gimp him. This weakness still isn't THAT bad if the Lucario is smart and never uses his second jump. You may eat a few attacks, but it is better than just getting gimped.

Also Lucario is infinitely better in teams.. mk/gw/diddy/pit are just crazy good with lucario.

mk-can plank, live forever, can help lucario in times of need/supports him better than anybody else

gw- buckets, anubis, 9's, gw smashes, planking... yeahhh

diddy- campy, almost forced to approach which will get you banana *****. Also if anubis works out bananas combo into all of lucarios kill moves

Pit-can plank and shoot arrows which lucario can combo off of. works very well bc the lucario doesn't have to 2v1 the other team the whole time. Mk will **** this team however... but any team without a Mk.. Lucario and pit are broken.


Figured I'd just write this now instead of when I wake up so now I can get some rest. xD I think he is fine where is he on the tier list.

Sorry this ended up being a "How I play Lucario guide" lol

Praxis said:

Ivysaur.

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That's like saying that Zero Suit Samus's Up-B and Forward-B don't have a hitbox, though. If the move attempts to grab the ledge, it won't have a hitbox. Ivysaur and Zero Suit Samus all have hitboxes on their Up-B otherwise (and if spaced correctly, you can use Ivysaur's Up-B to hit someone off the ledge [or make them roll off, whichever they prefer] while still being able to grab the ledge).

Right, but Zero Suit's tether can spike opponents who hang on too long, and Olimar can potentially stagespike.

ESAM says Lucario has the only up-B without a hurt box. I think it's a fair statement to say that this is true of Ivysaur as well.
Edit: ivysaur can hit someone off the ledge and still grab it? How?

Ivysaur's up-b has a hitbox though... Lucario is the only one that literally has no hitbox.

Praxis said:

Edit: ivysaur can hit someone off the ledge and still grab it? How?

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Unfortunately, it's not in the way that you're thinking of it.

If you're very close to the ledge and you Up-B, it is possible to be far away enough where the hitbox will hit an opponent on the ledge, but close enough to grab the ledge after you go into freefall.

Also, Ivysaur's Up-B can potentially stagespike in the same manner as Olimar's Up-B. Olimar's just has much faster startup.

Yeah...in 3v3's I was hanging on to the ledge to gimp Kith's last stock as ivysaur...he ended up killing me with his up-b before he died >_>

His defensive and punishment mix up game is actually amazing if he mixes up his gay roll with dash grabs/Fairs/dairs. Imo the biggest problem is that most lucario players tend to get predictable, when being as random as possible would make the character really frustrating for characters that have to commit to an attack (Like Snake). I'm sure there are random mid tier characters that beat him or don't have a lot of trouble with him and I think Diddy/Snake/MK all beat him solidly.

I think he's still a great and viable character in the right hands, just because of how hard his gimmicks are to predict and punish if used smartly.

Right. Solid, more viable than most, but not exceptional. Sounds like he's about where he should be.

I wouldn't go as far as saying Diddy beats Lucario solidly. Most Diddys know the m/u a lot more than the Lucario. Lucario is actually pretty quick with a banana and his jab and roll are great for getting around bananas. It's really hard for Diddy to kill Lucario bc of his weight. You can also throw a banana out of an aura sphere charge which makes you slide a good distance and guarantees the aura sphere will hit if you hit with the banana(this works a lot easier in teams). It can be a good surprise technique bc the banana disappears when it is in his hand. As long as you don't use fsmash against Diddy I think he has a really good chance in the m/u. The Lucario just can't lose patience.

Lee pretty much feels exactly the way I do about Lucario. Dtilt underrated, Ftilt underused, Dair SDI-able, etc.

I think more Lucario's need to use baby Aura Sphere. It's got decent rate of fire, it's decent with Fsmash, and rolling as an escape is just effective with Lucario. Play a mini-Falco/Snake game with that stuff. I once coached a relatively inexperienced player into defeating his mid-level friend by doing just that.

I don't see how Diddy would beat Lucario, honestly. Lucario can live a long time, Diddy isn't that great at edgeguarding offstage, Lucario has excellent banana control and should be able to chain fair on Diddy offstage pretty badly. Like Lee said...just don't use fsmash.

Generally every Fsmash should be replaced with a WELL spaced ftilt.

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I told Xefnir to do this like a year ago, he improved threefold overnight. xD


I'm not really sure I understand Dtilt's usage though. :/

Praxis said:

I don't see how Diddy would beat Lucario, honestly. Lucario can live a long time, Diddy isn't that great at edgeguarding offstage, Lucario has excellent banana control and should be able to chain fair on Diddy offstage pretty badly. Like Lee said...just don't use fsmash.



I told Xefnir to do this like a year ago, he improved threefold overnight. xD


I'm not really sure I understand Dtilt's usage though. :/

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The aura on dtilt hits through the stage. Some characters, when trying to recover near the ledge, will get stage spiked by it before they can sweet spot the ledge.

Does lucario have a forward glide toss ive gotten it 0 times but backward glide tossing is easy

He does but its much shorter by comparison.





Character F, B, R
Mario 0, 0, 3
Luigi 0, 1, 5+
Peach 3, 1, 0.5
Bowser 0, N0, R0
D.K. 5+, N0, R0
Diddy 3.5, 3, 4
Yoshi N0, N0, N0 (can't break out of egg shield)
Wario 1.5, 1.5, 2
Link N0, *, R0 (* = moves FORWARD one toe-length. Strange, but true)
Zelda 2.5, 3, 5+
Sheik 0, *, R0 (* = moves FORWARD one toe-length. Strange, but true)
Ganon 3, 2, R0
Toon Link N0, N0, R0
Samus 2, 3, 3
ZS Samus 5, N0, R0
Pit 5+, 5+, 5+
Ice Climbers 2, N0, R0
Rob 4:5, 4:5, 4:5 (4 for tilt-toss, 5 for smash-throw)
Kirby N0, N0, R0
Meta-knight 5+, 5+, R0:5+
DeDeDe N0, N0, R0
olimar 1.5, 0, R0
Fox 1, 0, 1
Falco 5+, N0, R0
Wolf 1.25, 1, 1
C. Falc 2, 1:5, 1:5
Pikachu 2, 2, 1
Squirtle 4:5, 4, 3
Ivysaur 2:3, 2.5, 2
Charizard 0.5, 0, R0
Lucario 1, 3, 3.5
Puff 0, N0, R0
Marth 2.5, 5+, 5+
Ike 0, 2, 2
Lucas 0, 1, 1
G&W 5+, 5+, R0
Snake 2, 2, 2
Sonic 5+, 5+, 5+
Ness 0, 1:2, 1:2

What do these numbers mean lol

CO18 said:

What do these numbers mean lol

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It's a measure of how many "units" the character moves with their glide toss I think. It's been a long time since I looked at the topic for that. The units were like a square width equal to one custom block from stage builder I think.