I like this one better than Young Link.
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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #12: Toon Link
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ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Young Link had the Dair of ph43r and the arrows of ph43r making him infinitely more awesome.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I don't have a lot to say about Toon Link except that he's a very solid character who is a viable threat in the right hands, but he isn't really the best at anything.
He should probably be the highest ranked C-tier, since he's definitely better than Pit. Toon Link has great aerial mobility, ranged spam, and combos. He also has great utility with Z-air, which is a very versatile attack. It also gives him a decent ability to deal with opponents with reflectors, since it isn't technically a projectile.
Overall Toon Link is very solid, but not exceptional. He has a unique playstyle that is highly effective and very respectable in the right hands. He's certainly not a bad choice, and if he fits your style you can do well with him. He isn't a top tier though and he probably never will be.
He should probably be the highest ranked C-tier, since he's definitely better than Pit. Toon Link has great aerial mobility, ranged spam, and combos. He also has great utility with Z-air, which is a very versatile attack. It also gives him a decent ability to deal with opponents with reflectors, since it isn't technically a projectile.
Overall Toon Link is very solid, but not exceptional. He has a unique playstyle that is highly effective and very respectable in the right hands. He's certainly not a bad choice, and if he fits your style you can do well with him. He isn't a top tier though and he probably never will be.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
*waggles tiny sword*
I think thats what really hurts him most.
Charatcers like Marth and MK can just space him. Of course it isnt as bad with Marth as it is MK (who is offensively stronger).
his ranged spam is very good, unlike like he has a much faster bow that doesnt rely on charging so much and he has some nice (if not rare) tricks involving his Dsmash.
The primary TL doesnt even come close to being top tier, heck I think he might be low high tier at best, is because he has nothing exceptional that other characters better than him can do.
Spam gets hindered. especially when the projectile can be struck out of the air.
I think thats what really hurts him most.
Charatcers like Marth and MK can just space him. Of course it isnt as bad with Marth as it is MK (who is offensively stronger).
his ranged spam is very good, unlike like he has a much faster bow that doesnt rely on charging so much and he has some nice (if not rare) tricks involving his Dsmash.
The primary TL doesnt even come close to being top tier, heck I think he might be low high tier at best, is because he has nothing exceptional that other characters better than him can do.
Spam gets hindered. especially when the projectile can be struck out of the air.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Such a gay character. I despise everything that spams better than ROB . 
I think he's still a bit underrated. Unlike Pit, good Toon links have taken top players out of tournmanet before (like Chip) and we know he's still got the potential. IMO his weakness is that horizontal recovery (vertical is great). Sure he's floaty but like Marth pretty easy to edgehog, it's certaintly exploitable.
I disagree with the idea that Marth and MK can outspace him. It's almost impossible to "outspace" his bombs, so Marth tends to go aggro. MK does the same. When I use Toon link and play good Marth's and MK's they get in my face rather than trying to space me, because if they try to space toon link, you just camp with projectiles. he has major problems with MK not because of spacing but because of MK's speed and ability to get in his face quick, rendering camping not very effective. Speed beats toon link not range IMO.
I think he is solid too, slightly above mid tier but yeah he's not in those top 8 elite characters...he's a step below.
I disagree with the idea that Marth and MK can outspace him. It's almost impossible to "outspace" his bombs, so Marth tends to go aggro. MK does the same. When I use Toon link and play good Marth's and MK's they get in my face rather than trying to space me, because if they try to space toon link, you just camp with projectiles. he has major problems with MK not because of spacing but because of MK's speed and ability to get in his face quick, rendering camping not very effective. Speed beats toon link not range IMO.
I think he is solid too, slightly above mid tier but yeah he's not in those top 8 elite characters...he's a step below.
I think Marth's upB OoS wrecks TL. He depends a lot on pressuring the opponents shield if the camping isn't working by spacing nairs and zairs, and Marth can just upB OoS after shielding the bombs and zairs. If TL throws a bomb and doesn't react with nair to catch it again, then Marth can simply zcatch the bomb and use it for a glide toss, or simply chuck it back at TL, causing him to either jump, shield it, concentrate on grabbing it, or get hit... All of which Marth can follow up from. And the same goes for MK, but to a much extreme extent.
I feel TL's solid indeed, but he can only get so far against top players. His camping game helps him a lot, but the more advanced the opponent is and the more knowledgeable he is in the MU, the less effective his camping gets. TL is one of those characters whose primary goal is running out the clock, and his aerials (esspecially nair and bair) are very good. Thing is, if he whiffs them or they're shielded, he's actually quite open to punishment from the opponent. Even as Kirby, who has slower overall aerial movement and slower running speed, I can find things to punish TL with whenever he whiffs an attack.
He also suffers from excessive shielding syndrome just like ZSS, but unlike her, TL can camp all day with his nice array of projectiles, and has attacks that punish opponent's whiffed OoS options. His tether grab isn't half bad for a tether, as he can true combo zair>grab when the zair hits, giving him an edge over ZSS in the grabbing department. Still, the way to beat a TL is to either get past everything by shielding, or outcamping him from out of his maximum range and forcing HIM to approach (a la Falco/Fox).
TL also suffers from MK-*****-me syndrome, where MK can just tornado ***** TL without much fear, as well as gimp him. And counting in his obviously good ground game, invincible upB OoS, and ways to take TL offstage, it's no wonder many TLs admit it's a straight-up **** matchup, regardless of planking/scrooging... Which contributes to the lack of TLs in tourneys, lack of TL experience for the majority of the players around, and to the switching of mains for current TL mainers.
I wouldn't put him all the way at the top, but he definitely doesn't belong in the bottom half of the current C-tier. He's mid-high, definitely.
I feel TL's solid indeed, but he can only get so far against top players. His camping game helps him a lot, but the more advanced the opponent is and the more knowledgeable he is in the MU, the less effective his camping gets. TL is one of those characters whose primary goal is running out the clock, and his aerials (esspecially nair and bair) are very good. Thing is, if he whiffs them or they're shielded, he's actually quite open to punishment from the opponent. Even as Kirby, who has slower overall aerial movement and slower running speed, I can find things to punish TL with whenever he whiffs an attack.
He also suffers from excessive shielding syndrome just like ZSS, but unlike her, TL can camp all day with his nice array of projectiles, and has attacks that punish opponent's whiffed OoS options. His tether grab isn't half bad for a tether, as he can true combo zair>grab when the zair hits, giving him an edge over ZSS in the grabbing department. Still, the way to beat a TL is to either get past everything by shielding, or outcamping him from out of his maximum range and forcing HIM to approach (a la Falco/Fox).
TL also suffers from MK-*****-me syndrome, where MK can just tornado ***** TL without much fear, as well as gimp him. And counting in his obviously good ground game, invincible upB OoS, and ways to take TL offstage, it's no wonder many TLs admit it's a straight-up **** matchup, regardless of planking/scrooging... Which contributes to the lack of TLs in tourneys, lack of TL experience for the majority of the players around, and to the switching of mains for current TL mainers.
I wouldn't put him all the way at the top, but he definitely doesn't belong in the bottom half of the current C-tier. He's mid-high, definitely.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Perhaps you misunderstood, by spaing I mean akin to how Pit has issues dealing with those close to him.
Marth and Mk have the means to act aggressively and once they have gotten into his safe zone, they can space him and prevent him from using his bombs and other projectiles. It ends up being a case of them being too far away to hit and them being too close to use a bomb.
Oh I did mis understand then. We basically agree on the same point then!
This. I don't mean "top five" good, but top ten, certainly.
By the way, I -hate- playing against Toon Link, but at least I acknowledge that you have to work for everything you do, even a little bit.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
Sounds like we all pretty much agree so far.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I don't think he is top 10 at all. The only person that he should be higher than in this current tier list is Pit. ZSS should be above him, so I wouldn't mind an 11 or 12 rating, just not top 10.
Crow!
Smash Lord
ESAM needs to look at the Pit weekly discussion again. I concluded one could justifiably slap Pit with a Zelda style -8 spots from his present position.
Anyway, Toon Link is super cool. His style is the same "overload you with a lot of problems to deal with simultaneously" of Snake and Diddy, but he sacrifices overall A move usefulness for even more complicated projectile traps than those characters have. He also has the "I'm low enough on the tier list that more people will cheer for you" thing going on, and also has the "there often aren't enough good TLs around to get proper practice against his many traps" advantage.
I'd play him myself if his floatiness and surprisingly short attack range didn't throw me off so much. That and the Link community would then kill me if given the chance.
Anyway, Toon Link is super cool. His style is the same "overload you with a lot of problems to deal with simultaneously" of Snake and Diddy, but he sacrifices overall A move usefulness for even more complicated projectile traps than those characters have. He also has the "I'm low enough on the tier list that more people will cheer for you" thing going on, and also has the "there often aren't enough good TLs around to get proper practice against his many traps" advantage.
I'd play him myself if his floatiness and surprisingly short attack range didn't throw me off so much. That and the Link community would then kill me if given the chance.
I don't think he's top 10 either (and Pit needs that slap). Looking at the current tier list, he should be around the middle of his current tier... In other words, he's not in a bad position at all. IMO, he doesn't have the traits to be a high tier, he comes short along with the tops of his current tier.
My thoughts are in my previous post.
My thoughts are in my previous post.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I think people that should be above TL are (In no order) MK Snake Diddy Wario Marth Pika D3 ZSS IC Falco at least.
I would just include Olimar.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
I knew I was forgetting somebody...
Iunno... You being from Florida and Nick's bro, you're pretty biased toward ZSS. IMO, she's not high tier material. ;o
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Not really...I mean I can see how good of a character because of who he loses to. He basically only loses to me and Seibrik and we play the 2 characters that can gimp her the best. He doesn't really lost to anybody else.
I think someone mentioned a Florida Falco that doesn't go to many tournaments, but is very good.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Underground I think you are talking about...but he doesn't really exist anymore.
No there is no good Falco in Florida. We have an up-and-coming one in R@vyn, but he isn't quite at the very good level yet.
I'm pretty sure Nick Riddle beat choice at MLG Orlando...or Keitaro...or some known Falco. I can't find the brackets so I can't verify...
No there is no good Falco in Florida. We have an up-and-coming one in R@vyn, but he isn't quite at the very good level yet.
I'm pretty sure Nick Riddle beat choice at MLG Orlando...or Keitaro...or some known Falco. I can't find the brackets so I can't verify...
gallax
Smash Hero
I think Tl is fine where he is with in the tier list. We have pretty much seen what he can do in tourney and what hes capable of. But i think what really hinders him is his sword and its length. That and if he had a better aerial kill move other than uair(which has to be baited from an airdodge to get a hit usually or from a really smart play).
The best thing he has going is that he is floaty and can jump pretty high and air camp so well. That and all the boomerang shenanigans.
The best thing he has going is that he is floaty and can jump pretty high and air camp so well. That and all the boomerang shenanigans.
Yep, his best things are his camping abilities combined with his high jumps and floaty trait. He's not high tier material, his playstyle starts losing luster the higher level the opponent is (working around camping isn't hard at all).
I dunno, ESAM... Nick might have dominated in MLG-O, but after his domination, he was soundly destroyed by both Ally and M2K when they caught onto ZSS's weakness. Does anyone in Florida play shieldcampy with characers she goes even with? Or does everyone try to bait him into doing mistakes instead?
I dunno, ESAM... Nick might have dominated in MLG-O, but after his domination, he was soundly destroyed by both Ally and M2K when they caught onto ZSS's weakness. Does anyone in Florida play shieldcampy with characers she goes even with? Or does everyone try to bait him into doing mistakes instead?
Well, by shuffling the current tier list's characters around while still having the same divisions with the same number of characters inside (1 for top, 11 for high, 15 for mid, 10 for low), it would go something like this up until TL:
MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, ICs, Wario, Marth, DDD, Pikachu, Olimar, G&W, Lucario, TL.
If the character count for each tier increases next tier list, then sure, TL could find himself inside high tier. But until then, basing my thoughts on his ideal position off of the current tier list's divisions, it would be him in mid tier, #13.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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I'm feeling Kewkky's placing of him right now. I don't know how I feel about TL vs. the characters around him either. DK I think might need a rise. I'm never sure how I feel about Peach. R.O.B. and Kirby define mid-tier. I also think Fox is way, way too low right now. My opinions on Pit fit the consensus. I think Fox is better than TL.
I also think Marth ***** TL more than you guys think.
I also think Marth ***** TL more than you guys think.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
M2K is amazing, and he will destroy everybody lol. Snake is also one of ZSS's harder MU's because of the OOS options. If ZSS doesn't get a gimp in that MU its basically over. Nick knows our habits too well to really shieldcamp him...he gets a lot of grabs on us. It is kinda irritating. Also, Ally didn't DESTROY him, it was 1 stock every match aside from FD I think (Yay shield breaker!). Also, if we shield camp him, he will D-smash our shields, which leads to a frame neutral zone, so if you try to drop shield anything (Unless you have invulnerable Up-b OOS like MK and Marth) ZSS can jab you with one frame, so most people stay in their shield...and he just keeps doing it/rolls around us and pokes. It really isn't as easy as "Just shield, you good"
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I didn't see M2K "catching on to ZSS's weaknesses" I saw M2K out-play Nick and read everything he did, regardless of character choice. You know, like he does to a lot of people, because he's M2K.
It might be that his thought pattern is that of a really great player, and not the character itself, that is playing around the shieldcamping. I mean, her grabs are all 16 frames, theoretically they shouldn't be connecting as often as Nick is succeeding with it... To tell you the truth, the only tourney-placing ZSS that keeps beating top players from around the place is Nick. boss and BigLou do some nice jobs as Luigi, Shaky did (and does) a nice job as Ness... It's all about the characters having really great players playing them most of the time.
Just looking at Luigi's moveset without having ever seen BigLou or boss play in person... Would you arrive at the conclusion that Luigi can beat top players of the higher-tiered characters? How about Yoshi (Poltergust's recent 3rd place and all, props to him)? To me, ZSS is one of these cases, where the character is doing so exceedingly well because the player behind it knows how to deal with the players around him and their habits... Kinda the same thing as Ally and Falcon, but to a different extent. Every other Luigi, Yoshi, Ness, and Falcon (not counting the #1 player for each of the examples I listed) don't compare to their top player in tourney results and match performance... And ZSS falls in here quite nicely from my point of view.
Oh, right, on-topic... *waits for a person to say TL should be higher/lower than #13*
On the contrary! I think M2K learned a nice amount about ZSS from Snakeee back in the day. Didn't Snakeee then start rambling about how garbage ZSS is, and what a huge gimmick character she is? He also pointed out her huge weakness to excessive shielding because apparently, top players were catching on (including M2K). Hell, Snakeee 2-stocked M2K in their first match ever, I saw that stuff while ZSS was still my solid main so I remember. ;D
Ally didn't have that opportunity, so he had to do so at MLG-O. Get ***** the first time, think about what happened and how he could turn a match around, try it next time, and voila: matchup learned.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
He doesn't even have to grab dude, ZSS is really good with shield pressure. D-smash jab roll behind jab d-tilt will most likely stab you if you can't react in time (ZSS has an awesome forward roll)
See, here's the thing... You pointed out something that would most likely stab through my shield, IF I can't react in time. Knowing what it is that will poke through my shield, I think I would be more ready than that. If I have time for a reaction, then that means it has holes in it, ZSS's vulnerable doing those things. Which means that if I react in time, I should be hitting her/evading it more than she should be hitting me.
The way you're speaking about ZSS is like you have NOTHING you can do to stop her from doing her thing with the pressure. I dunno, but as soon as I saw that dsmash happening against my shield, I would probably jump OoS and nair towards/away of ZSS (depending on Nick's habits) as Pika, maybe a jump-cancelled hyphen usmash on either direction. The chances of Nick predicting that every time and reacting with an OoS uair in that abnormally small timeframe most of the time are MUCH lower than successfully landing a "d-smash jab roll jab dtilt", if you ask me.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I don't think he's saying that at all- he's saying that she can apply great pressure by mixing up what she does in order to throw off the opponent's reaction time. None of it is "guaranteed" but that doesn't matter. You're causing them to make a guess, which makes them easier to read.
This'll be my last post in the TL thread concerning ZSS, since this thread is going to the TL boards and in no way does this argument correlate to TL's character discussion. Me being a mod and all, I should know better. :|
The fact that her ground game revolves around the opponent taking guesses and reacting fast enough would mean that it's comparable to Sonic's, in the sense that she depends on her speed for punishment, and the opponent's reaction speed and MU domination (but all MUs depend on those two, after all). Hit with fast attacks and fast maneuvers until your opponent makes a wrong guess, then capitalize. Her gimmicks work because opponents can't react in time to her vast array of mix-ups, with varying speeds and ranges, when at close range, and the opponent will eventually end up falling for one of them. She depends on the opponent not reacting in time, so the better the opponent is, the better his reaction time, and the harder it is to pull off those speedy maneuvers. And the thing with Nick is, he's a top player so you can expect his reaction time to be faster than most players he ends up playing with. Only way he'll get wrecked is if he goes up to someone who's a better player/uses a character that's a bad MU for her and both players are equally skilled. What does this have to do with Sonic? Well, speedy gimmicks can only take a character so far. I'd love to see Nick pull another MLG-O, but I'm willing to bet that next time he won't make it to top 3.
He's been doing good against people in Florida because he's both a better player than most people there, and he's got even/advantageous MUs against the players who're at a near-equal skill level (and by skill level, I am weighing a lot of different factors in a scale, against the other player's). The ZSS mainers say Pikachu is a near-even MU for them. With all due respect, if you and Nick go up against each other, and Nick is a better player (even if slightly), who do you expect will win most of the time? Same goes for all the other characters, and the MU/Skill balance between competitors in a match.
... Which is why I never hear about any other ZSS mainers doing anything amazing with her. it's just Nick now, no one else. Even Snakeee ,who was an idol for the ZSS community (see Snakeee's thread), ended up being a no one after he lost the edge against his opponents. He blamed it on them "learning the matchup", and I partially agree with him... It's also the fact that he was the only top ZSS at his time, and all the other top players learned how to play against his playstyle rather than against ZSS, since he was the most active and the best, but that's beside the point: his opponents learned that excessively playing from their shields against ZSS worked better than normal play, and so Snakeee's domination began to lose luster.
This topic isn't about Zamus, take it to her own thread.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Yeah, Toon Link's sword gives him a bit of a disjoint to do really good work in other MUs, and his camp game is awesome, but he's just not top tier material once you learn how to approach and capitalize.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Well its as you said.
Its a case where Nick knew the habits of the players and thus used it to overcome one of ZSS' weaknesses. Its not a case where a character flaw wasnt as bad as originally thought.
Chip > you.
1) If M2K or Ally read that post, then you would fail.
2) Where's the tourney results against every other top player?
3) He's still active? They added another mod for the TL boards because he hadn't posted since march... I could've sworn he quit the game or something.