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Match Up Thread Export - Lucas

Noobicidal

Noobicidal

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40:60 - Lucas' Advantage​


This thread will be used to help keep match up discussion clean and concise. This series of threads will all be linked to the compendium.

With that said, this thread is dedicated to the Jigglypuff/Lucas match up. Let the discussion commence!

Match Up Summary​

Lucas has a rather effective and safe spacing game, utilizing PK Fire (and all of its variants), F-Tilt (which also doubles as a killing move), and Fair (another killing move as well). PK Fire isn't too much of an issue for Jigglypuff due to her aerial mobility, and also due to the fact that, with proper spacing, PK Fire can be canceled out with Pound or any other aerial aside from Dair. Due to PK Fire's diagonal hitbox, Jigglypuff can't safely space Dair to cancel it.

Compared to most other match ups, we can't simply rely on getting Lucas off-stage in order to gimp him. Unlike his Mother counterpart Ness, Lucas has an amazing array of recovery options. Wave-bounced PK Fires, Magnet Pulls, PKT2, and the ability to use a tether recovery using Zair helps to maintain his off-stage longevity. PK Thunder also has the added benefit of not canceling itself out when the head comes in contact with another player. While this makes gimping as Jigglypuff significantly harder, we can still add anywhere from 10% to 40% if we manage to get Lucas off-stage.

Stage Picks and Bans​

Yoshi's Island is the most preferred Neutral stage to take Lucas to. The naturally uneven ground can mess with Lucas' auto-cancel shenanigans, and due to the stage having walls all the way down to the lower blast zone instead of the usual "open" bottom, a poorly aimed PKT2 recovery can result in him bouncing off the wall and killing himself. The support ghosts can ironically enough hinder Lucas' recovery, such as pushing Lucas out of tether range, and destroying PKT2 upon contact.

As for non-Neutral stages, Castle Siege is a great counter pick against Lucas. The uneven land during the first transition helps to protect against PK Fire Spam, and the statues during the second transition will completely block PK Fire (until they are eventually destroyed). The third transition offers a MASSIVELY tilted landscape, and the dimensions are perfect for setting up gimps.

Brinstar is usually Jigglypuff's main counter pick (along with RC, of course), but Lucas can do nasty things there. When Jigglypuff is in contact with the vegetation there, her hitbox for Rest expands. That's great and all, but if Lucas chooses to abuse the vegetation, not only can he enjoy the benefits of enlarged hitboxes, he can make several of his moves have EXTENDED hitboxes, in terms of both size and duration. For example, if Lucas were to stand on one of the platforms and D-Smash the root connecting it to the stage, he'll be able to abuse it, without suffering any additional start up lag. He can also abuse the permeable floor, and use PKT2 to recover back on-stage, which opens up ANOTHER recovery option for him.

As for neutral stages, you'll want to steer clear of Battlefield. Lucas controls the stage a lot more effectively than we do, and he also has several tricks to abuse (Ledge jump FH Dair while landing on the nearest platform, for example).

Final Word​

Lucas is a character who excels in spacing and recovering, which are two things that Jigglypuff does NOT want to deal with in a match up. Lucas has a safe and effective approach, and can kill Jigglypuff in a plethora of ways. Even though he can recover very well, this doesn't mean that we can't harass him in the process. As long as the Jigglypuff player doesn't get baited into a killing move or take unnecessary damage with PK Fire, Jigglypuff CAN win this battle. As is suggested in almost every match up, get Lucas off-stage and attempt to gimp him.

Relevant/Important Links​

Lucas' Frame Data - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=211307
The Lucas Match Up Thread - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=246877
Projectile Canceling as Jigglypuff - http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218940
 
GeneralWoodman

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You can move closer to lucas by dodging pkfire with dodge roll rather than perfect shielding and its laggy enough that you won't get punished. I suggest you just trick him near the ledge before using fair and then bairing him too far away to recover. Grab a lot and don't drop your shield for any reason when hes jumping or using pk thunder. Lucas has that downtilt lock to upsmash and fsmash to kill really early, but if you play smart it shouldn't happen often
personally its 55-45 jiggz favor.
 
#HBC | J

#HBC | J

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Yea it's not in Jigglies favor it's either 55-45 Lucas or 60:40 Lucas wins. =/

I'd be willing to do a write up since I play this MU, and play both Lucas/Jiggs alot ;3 He is annoying for her.
 
Chuee

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Jiggz really doesn't have hardly anything on Lucas except that she can rack a decent amount of damage offstage, but that won't even happen all the time.
While, Lucas has more range in both the ground and air and kills Jiggz at low %s.
 
#HBC | J

#HBC | J

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I don't think our Fair out ranges her Bair does it?

Also im sooooo sorry for Ninjaing you Noob ;_;
 
Noobicidal

Noobicidal

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Can we please keep this related to the Lucas match up? As much as I love seeing two guys flirting, keep it out of here.
 
Chuee

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offtopic: Wifi is serious business.
Especially matches from A YEAR ago. Lmao
On topic:
Lucas wins
 
*JuriHan*

*JuriHan*

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GeneralWoodman said:
personally its 55-45 jiggz favor.
Click to expand...
um god no. god ****ing no it isn't in our favor. Have you ever played a lucas player offline? One that knows what they are doing It's AT LEAST 40:60 in lucas's advantage. Misspace anything you will eat a d-smash, his d-air really ****s up all of our approaches when spaced correctly (something unheard of on wifi for the record) and he will do this, he kills us retardly early- and has lots of options since we're super light we're at risk to dying even to his f-tilt and throws hell even pk thunder offstage, he has pk fire so we have to approach and he's a lot harder to gimp offstage than you think. Yeah on wifi Lucas can't recover for ****, offline he's fairly versatile with zap jump, tether and pk thunder that actually works. In fact my Kirby gimps Lucas better than my Jigglypuff; Only way I could beat my ex with puff was playing super gay and running away most of the match. That was the only way. Against a good Lucas I think this is circumstance to get a lead and run the clock or use a different character.


not trying to be scary, just telling you how it is!
 
-LzR-

-LzR-

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This is among my most played MU with puff. Once you get him offstage it's gg. Can't really tell any superb tips, but please, don't try to punish his smashes without being really careful. Lucas players can make their usmash go wtf with stuff like balloons, shyguys or brinstar's stuff.
His dsmash is very easy to accidentally run into and his fsmash kinda shouldn't hit you anyways.
I am pretty sure you have more range and you can live from his spikes all the way until about 100%.
Learn the Lucas players PKT patterns, it's very easy to avoid PKT2 if you play smart. Fair and bair also cancel PKT which is good for gimping him as your body cannot gimp Lucas.

Too lazy to write moar. Also, I don't give numbers or anything since that is not my thing.
 
T-block

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This matchup is haaaaard for Jigglypuff.

The most obvious thing going for Jiggs is that if Lucas gets off stage it's very likely Jiggs can take the stock, or at least tack on 40+%. Lucas has good recovery in that he can usually make it back to the stage, but against a character like Jiggs he's going to take a lot of damage for it. If he's at low percents you want to keep hitting him to force him to use PKT until you're in a position to hit the head and gimp. Dash attack is a good option to keep in mind if he's near the ledge - I've hit him out of tether before.

On the ground we get beat pretty hard, but that's nothing new. Good jab combo, fast f-tilt, etc. I don't know why people are giving d-smash so much mention though. If you're playing this matchup like you should (not aggressively, playing carefully and baiting), you shouldn't be running into d-smash. I'm more scared of f-smash tbh.

In the air I think we get beat too. Lucas has good air speed (10th in the game), so although Jiggs still beats him in top air speed, the advantage is not as significant as in other matchups. Lucas also accelerates to his top air speed faster than Jiggs does. His f-air has more range than most of our aerials except possibly our b-air, but it comes out a lot faster than out b-air. His d-air also has deceptive range, and can autocancel out of a fullhop, making it very hard for us to punish. He also has a much faster fall speed, which when combined with that d-air gives him the vertical spacing advantage too.

Against Lucas, my killing move is almost always f-air... it's really the only reliable thing we have, outside of a dash attack or DACUS read. Lucas on the other hand has no trouble killing us - even f-tilt and f-air kill Jiggs at decent percents.

This is definitely a matchup that becomes a lot easier when you don't have to approach. I've always found approaching to be hell in this matchup... he always has an answer to our approach. We also have to watch out for pivot grabs - the way Jiggs has to approach leaves her fairly susceptible to them.

If we had to assign numbers I'd say 60:40 Lucas' favour.
 
M

M-WUZ-H3R3

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A lot different than the Ness MU.
His recovery isn't as easy to gimp, his aerials out range ours, and he's got great kill moves.
60:40, Lucas
 
GeneralWoodman

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you can dodge roll past pk fire and dash attack in one motion to punish pk fire :>. Its more "wait for pkfire," then "oh no im getting camped"
 
Chuee

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GeneralWoodman said:
you can dodge roll past pk fire
So can every character in the game.
and dash attack in one motion to punish pk fire :>.
Yeah, if you're playing people that don't know how to space it.
Its more "wait for pkfire," then "oh no im getting camped"
Click to expand...
10character
 
GeneralWoodman

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a free dash attack is a free kill for jiggly. And if its spaced then their probably really close to the edge which is a good position for us :)
 
~Nasty~

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GeneralWoodman said:
a free dash attack is a free kill for jiggly. And if its spaced then their probably really close to the edge which is a good position for us :)
Click to expand...
Not true. You could be near the edge and i could be near the middle of the stage. >.>

That's situational Woody.

Lucas wins this MU. Jiggs is forced to approach but gets outspaced on the ground by our ftilt. Ftilt will most likely be decayed so we won't be using that to kill. If you try to airdodge to get inside us you'll just eat a Dsmash. If you are above us we can kill you with Uair which kills jiggs off the top at a pretty low percent. If you're in the air we really shouldn't be getting above you with our Dair especially if you're spacing is right.

Offstage is obviously a little difficult for Lucas but if the Lucas is smart and doesn't use his jump he'll wait and then wavebounce a zap jump back to the stage.

And the best option for punishing a misspaced PKF for jiggs is after she shields it you DACUS to hit us. At least imo, that's the best thing to do., but i don't main jiggs, i main Lucas. lol.

60-40 sounds about right. I don't know where you would CP us to but i'd say for Neutrals you's want to get us to Lylat or YI. Final D and SV seem pretty evenish as far as stage is concerned and BF is our advantage. The platforms make it hard for you to approach from above, but i guess the same could be said for Lylat/YI... so maybe Final D is your best bet. :laugh:
 
Chuee

Chuee

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GeneralWoodman said:
a free dash attack is a free kill for jiggly. And if its spaced then their probably really close to the edge which is a good position for us :)
Click to expand...
How many times do I have to tell you this.
You can't punish a properly spaced PKF with dash attack.
End of discussion.
 
GeneralWoodman

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i never said you could :/
but if the jiggz is camping it would make sense to spam standing pk fire until it moves...in which case we can use this
 
GeneralWoodman

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i guess its fun to spam no and rage with one word explanations.
NO NO NO! LUCAS WINS! JIGGZ IS A BALLOON. IM HORRIBLE AND TAKE MY ANGER ON THREADS RAWR!
 
#HBC | J

#HBC | J

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wooooow so much input on this MU my say isn't really needed anymore ;O Seems it's agreed 60:40 Lucas wins for a couple reasons. ^_^
 
KillerJawz

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GeneralWoodman said:
i guess its fun to spam no and rage with one word explanations.
NO NO NO! LUCAS WINS! JIGGZ IS A BALLOON. IM HORRIBLE AND TAKE MY ANGER ON THREADS RAWR!
Click to expand...
Yes. You are quite right.

Stephen I think it's best we end the discussion here, there doesn't seem to be much more for them to rage talk about.
 
Noobicidal

Noobicidal

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KillerJawz said:
Yes. You are quite right.

Stephen I think it's best we end the discussion here, there doesn't seem to be much more for them to rage talk about.
Click to expand...
Yeah, this isn't going anywhere else. I'll have the laughably short write up within the hour or so.
 
#HBC | J

#HBC | J

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that wasn't my actual input =/

I was saying because of the reasons other people listed instead of me having to basically copy pasta what they said. I'm agreeing with what has been said. Unless a writeup is needed then I see no point for me to say a basic reitteration of what has been said plus the discussion is closing.

hmmm, sorry if I sounded that way.
 
Maniclysane

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It's no problem.

Lucas doesn't have the defense they think they do to keep Jigglypuff out. She's quick enough to get through his cute tricks and do serious damage. It's too easy to gimp him for the matchup to be 60:40 Lucas. I can't think of any reliable killers Lucas has either. His Dtilt tricks won't work on us, his utilt has too much cooldown. The only killing move I can think of that Lucas has is a surprise fsmash.

This matchup has to be 50:50.
 
#HBC | J

#HBC | J

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Maniclysane said:
It's no problem.

Lucas doesn't have the defense they think they do to keep Jigglypuff out. She's quick enough to get through his cute tricks and do serious damage. It's too easy to gimp him for the matchup to be 60:40 Lucas. I can't think of any reliable killers Lucas has either. His Dtilt tricks won't work on us, his utilt has too much cooldown. The only killing move I can think of that Lucas has is a surprise fsmash.

This matchup has to be 50:50.
Click to expand...
First off, No it is not easy for Jigglypuff to gimp Lucas. He has four ways to get back to the stage which in the end makes it very tricky for her to gimp him as well as say Ness. The Dtilt Lock I think you are referring to works on every character after a certain percentage, Jiggz is no exception. Lucas has better aerial Mobility than Jigglypuff. (Lucas being top 4 while Jigglypuff is top 10.) However Jigglypuff has better speed (Her being top 2 and Lucas being top 10). So overall Lucas is trickier in the air than your giving him credit for. Lucas' kill moves that are "cute and unrealiable" can be against Jiggs are Uair, Fair, Ftilt, Fsmash, and Dthrow are all realiable on Jiggz at decent percentages. Utilt and Nair are both annoying and so is PKF against Jiggz. This isn't input im just helping you understand what you said isn't necessarily right.

This MU is 60:40 Lucas' advantage. =/

Read what T-Block, SNO, and Nasty wrote. I agree with them.
 
KillerJawz

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Maniclysane said:
I can't think of any reliable killers Lucas has either. The only killing move I can think of that Lucas has is a surprise fsmash.
Click to expand...
Oh my dear christ get out. Fsmash is a fast solid killer. Usmash has a gigantic and LINGERING hitbox. Ftilt and fair also kill pretty early on Jiggs, as well as Dsmash, which grows with each hit, his bthrow can also kill.

This matchup has to be 50:50.
Click to expand...
Have you even PLAYED this match up?
 
T-block

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I don't even consider u-smash a kill move lol... only time it should land is out of d-tilt lock setup. If you run into u-smash, you're not playing this matchup carefully enough. Seriously, the matchup calls for some pretty gay play.

As for stages, I'd take Yoshi's Island over Castle Siege tbh, not that Castle Siege is a bad choice. The uneven ground messes with his autocancelling, the stage walls make it hard for him to recover, and he really hates the Support Ghost lol. The third transition of Castle Siege is great, but the first two are just meh imo... I really don't see why you're so scared of PK Fire.
 
Noobicidal

Noobicidal

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T-block said:
As for stages, I'd take Yoshi's Island over Castle Siege tbh, not that Castle Siege is a bad choice. The uneven ground messes with his autocancelling, the stage walls make it hard for him to recover, and he really hates the Support Ghost lol. The third transition of Castle Siege is great, but the first two are just meh imo... I really don't see why you're so scared of PK Fire.
Click to expand...
I didn't receive too many recommendations as to where we should take Lucas, so I just picked the first stage that came to mind. I'll add in Yoshi's Island as well.

I'm not scared of PK Fire. I just don't see the point in taking unnecessary damage in a match up that we'd rather not be forced to approach in.
 
Maniclysane

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Jbandit said:
First off, No it is not easy for Jigglypuff to gimp Lucas. He has four ways to get back to the stage which in the end makes it very tricky for her to gimp him as well as say Ness. The Dtilt Lock I think you are referring to works on every character after a certain percentage, Jiggz is no exception. Lucas has better aerial Mobility than Jigglypuff. (Lucas being top 4 while Jigglypuff is top 10.) However Jigglypuff has better speed (Her being top 2 and Lucas being top 10). So overall Lucas is trickier in the air than your giving him credit for. Lucas' kill moves that are "cute and unrealiable" can be against Jiggs are Uair, Fair, Ftilt, Fsmash, and Dthrow are all realiable on Jiggz at decent percentages. Utilt and Nair are both annoying and so is PKF against Jiggz. This isn't input im just helping you understand what you said isn't necessarily right.

This MU is 60:40 Lucas' advantage. =/

Read what T-Block, SNO, and Nasty wrote. I agree with them.
Click to expand...
No Jigglypuff player, will EVER get hit by the tiny and low hitbox dtilt has. Even if we did, the hitstun is so low I'm sure even an average Jigglypuff could rest through it.

I would say the cooldown on Lucas grabs make dthrow less than reliable, I doubt ftilt really has the knockback to kill Jigglypuff btw, I think ftilt would be better used as a spacer than a killer.

Also, the only recovery moves I know of that lucas has are his PK thunder recovery and that zappy super high jumping PK fire (Which I'm pretty sure requires a jump to use). Knowing the names and the functionality could help.
 
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