Toon Link Matchup Discussion: Pit

Go go go go.

50-50 definitely

we can't camp pit at long range so its best to stay mid to close range
and air camping works really well for me (at least)
zair is really good in this matchup

Heard you guys could use some imput on the Pit MU. Let's see what I can do to help. Zair as an approach is good against Pit, because the hookshot can cancel out our arrows. Sure, we have long range projectiles, but if you Zair, spotdodge, and perfect shield them you shouldn't have a problem. Maybe it's just me, but my Pit is susceptible to the Bair to Dair spike combo if you do it correctly. Pit's a pretty light character, so an Usmash or Uair at about 100% or so should kill him. If you get knocked offstage, you need to be wary of arrow and mirror shield gimps. Oh, and a fresh Bair could definitely kill Toon Link at around 100-110%, so watch out. Watch for when Pit uses his WoI as a planking tool, I'm pretty sure you can get a could Bair stage spike if you time it correctly. Don't constantly use Zair as a damage racker because I'm pretty sure Pit can respond with a shield grab.
50-50 IMO Hope this helps. ^_^

TL N-air> Pit. It outranges everything he has outside of arrow (duh). Use it and abuse it.

~mjg~ said:

At best this is 50/50 for you guys.

Your reflector's honestly isn't that big of a deal for toonlink. TL just have to be smart about projectile spam (Zair will go through your Angel Ring). To be honest, TL won't have to run away from pit and rely on projectiles the entire time to do any decent damage.

I agree with the Back air part only a little because, this should not be happening to toonlinks ALL the time unless they are being predictable with their recovery methods (actually, most toonlinks will throw a boomerang towards the ledge anyways, so unless your already off stage, we still shouldn't get stage spiked by Bair or any aerial that often) >_>. The only reliable thing that has harassed me off stage has been Pit's Arrows. If toonlink has to use Up B, hold onto the ledge and just drop off and use Up B again to grab the ledge. It will push the TL player away from the ledge.

A good toonlink will NEVER roll. I don't know no where that came from. His roll is SO incredibly bad.

I agree with Lylat being good vs TL. It screws up our timing as well (not that big of a deal though).

Try not to be stuck in a position to have to use Up B. We have a easier time hitting you out of it with all of our tools.

When its time to kill, I think we might actually have the edge for once. Other than your F Smash and Back Air, I can't think of any reliable kill moves for pit vs TL. TLs can also SDI the F Smash (Our floaty-ness aids us a bit). Oh..I Forgot about glide attack as well.

As far as stages go, Delfino and Halberd would be your best bet against us. Frigate is a decent stage as well for pit. Lylat and Yoshi's are good starters to play on against TL. You will be killing earlier than us on Yoshi's Island.

One of TLs best friends in this MU will be Zair. It out ranges everything pit has (It even stops arrows).

Arrow looping is not an issue. Its so easy not to get hit by them >_>

Wingdashing can cancel out all projectiles except bombs (they will still be pushed back by pit's Up B though)

If you exploit a TLs habit of Spot dodging after an approach (or anything), punish him with a down smash.

Watch gliding back onto the stage. Toonlink can jump above you and Dair you from above (not offstage lol), or he can Up smash you (you can stop the Up Smash easier though if you angle your gliding descent and use your glide attack in time).

We can punish your dash attack with an Up Smash

Toonlink is too floaty for a Forward throw CG. We can DI down and zair or just nair...so get ready to powershield...chances of you regrabbing us still is slim to none. So maybe Forward throw to Dash attack? Or even forward throw to a shutter step F Smash (that is so sexy XD)

-On Platforms/Ledges, it is good to execute F smash because even if we shield the first hit, the second hit WILL hit toonlink and i hate that it happens but your F smash pushes us just far enough to where the second hit can reach us and we will lose our shield because we no longer have any ground below us.



BREAKING THE STAGES DOWN:

Toonlinks will most likely be counterpicking stages like:
(Toonlink is good on most neutrals to be honest, but the neutrals below are stages where I, personally, would take pit)

-Battlefield (Reduces ability to camp as hard).
-Smashville
-Delfino (its ok..again i wouldnt Counterpick it but we dont have any advantages/disadvantages really, except for the slim chance of spiking pit when the two players are playin it out on the moving platform) This stage is actually pretty good for both players.

Stages for Pit when playing toonlink:
-Frigate
-Halberd: You kill us earlier horizontally. We kill you earlier vertically
-Yoshis Island (If for some reason we are recovering low on this stage and you decide to glide along the ledge, then you can end your glide, grab the ledge, and get a quick kill. Heres a Money Match video that demonstrating this..just watch up start at 20 and end at 30 to see what I am talking about ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRnEuhpd2Ac#t=0m27s )----->Old as rocks, but gets the point across.
-Delfino (Look at Description above)
-Lylat (This is by far one of the better stages to play on against a tl user...its annoying.

55:45 TL (50:50 on some stages)

Ill edit this post if I remember anything else.

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55:45 tl

i disagree with the lylat thing

The zair think is pretty predictable too me and my arrow loops work if you try to air dodge to zair.
Ignore that though, but and short hop by toon link seem very predictable. No 1 attack is overpowering over pit because he's to adaptable. Nair? Slide shield, upsmash, uptilt, jab. Or retreat with arrow.

TL does pretty well at camping and rack damage by it if he changes his patterns of course. Its difficult for even pit to challenge it all. But with a string of arrows can null camp a bit.

Toonlinks combos are pretty effective vs pit. Even fsmash that stuns pit so long that he doesn't sdi the 2nd hit. Pit for me seems to do well up close and seems to force TL to retreat.

Toonlink very great K.O. power versus pit, and zair to upsmash isn't common for pit to get hit by. Utilt is somehow stronger than upsmash when it comes to k.o.ing. Fair is pretty fast.

Unless you know how to play off stage very well, don't challenge him by the ledge. Its easily seen and can seriously cripple you once you are hit off.

I'd say 50:50 and 45: 55 Tl on uneven stages with heavy slopes . Its harder to punish TL on lower slopes. But its also Vise versa for pit, just not as much.

55:45 Toon Link.

Zair breaks through angel ring, Multiple projectiles make stopping Pit's recovery easier. I find Pits edge game very good, it's tough for us to get back on stage, although doing the zair onto stage (i think it's called demonic zair in the AT guide), would be helpful for getting back up. offstage though, I say we have the edge, nair and bair are quicker than all of pits aerials, iirc.

Pit's arrows really aren't that big of a deal, even if they are looped. Rang clashes with it, bombs and zair cancel them, and if those aren't options, airdodge or PS.

Something I noticed, if you time the boomerang to be thrown while the arrow is about to hit you, the arrow will go over you, provided they are firing straight at you. tink kinda crouches when he throws out a rang. I wish I had a video of that happening, its kind of hard to explain.

If he tries to scrooge you, just nail him with a projectile once he pops wings.

For stages, Smashville is the best option, imo. Japes also seems like it'd be good, if it's legal. Same with Pictochat.

Ban Frigate.

glide attack is dumb and i hate it.

Heard you needed some input for this MU.

I still think that this MU is mostly 50:50.

Long Range:
I'm pretty sure that we can beat Tink in the long range game. Our Arrows can travel farther than yours and are faster than yours. Even though most of your tools can cancel out our Arrows, we can still control their direction and be able to maneuver around your tools. And since Tink's Projectiles don't reach far and are slow, Pit has the advantage when he's at long range.

Mid-Range:
Here is where Tink can take advantage of Pit. All of Tink's projectiles can reach Pit at this range, and since he can use multiple of his tools at once, Pit has to be careful. Tink should be pressuring Pit with his Zair and his projectiles. Pit can SH and then use Angel Ring in the air so he doesn't boost forward and put himself in range of Tinks grab. Pit's Angel Ring can reflect all of Tinks projectiles, including his bombs. And since Pit's Angel Ring has greater Surface Area, it will be hard for Tink to get his projectiles through unless he comes from above. Although, Tink's jabs. Dash Attack, and all of his tilts clank with Pit's Angel Ring. Tinks Dash Attack can also go through Angel Ring, but Tink has to time it right so that it does happen. And all of Tinks smashes beat through Angel Ring, including his Zair. And we all know Tink can grab Pit out of Angel Ring. So be careful if you plan on using Angel Ring to reflect attacks. Pit's Mirror Shield is also a good reflector, and it can defend against almost all of Tinks attacks. Although, if Tink positions himself right in front of Pit while he's using Angel Ring, his Fsmash can go through the Mirror Shield, so be careful of this. Tink can also grab Pit out of Mirror Shield. I don't think Tink's Zair can go through Pit's Mirror Shield, but I have not tested this out. Pit has to be careful, since Tink's tools can manipulate Pit into getting cought in deadly combos. I also wouldn't advise Pit to use Arrows too much at Mid-Range, since Tink can react quickly and it will be harder to hit him if he has a boomerang or bomb out.

Close Range:
Here, I think Pit has the advantage. Tink doesn't have to many good options against Pit at this range, and most of Pit's attacks can outrange most of Tink's. Our jab>jab>infinite is also pretty annoying against Tinks and can rack up a lot of damage if Tink doesn't DI correctly. Be careful of a sudden F smash from Tink, as it can outrange most of Pit's attacks. Pit can combo better at close range, but Pit has to be careful of being juggled by Tink's Up Tilt. Tink's Up Tilt can also lead to his nasty Bair combos, so Tink should try to find a time to use Up Tilt. I don't think Tink should think about using projectiles at this range, but Tink's bombs would be a nice deterrent for Pit, since hitting Tink would run the risk of the bomb exploding and hitting both of them. Using Angel Ring is a good way to cause even more damage, but be careful not to keep it up, since Tink can use his Fsmash to go through it. At high percents, Pit should be careful about approaching Tink. His Up Tilt seems to be just as deadly as his Up Smash at this percentage, and his Tilts have more killing power than Pit's. I would suggest that Tink should make some distance between him and Pit, if they are at low percentages. And Tink should start approaching Pit at high percentages.

Aerial game:
Pit has about just as much combo opportunities as Tink does Aerially. Although, Tink has a few more killing moves than Pit does Aerially. I'm pretty sure Pit's Fair outranges Tinks Aerial's, but I think Tink's Aerials come out faster than Pit's. I think in the air, it would come down to the spacing between the two. Pit should be looking for an oppening, then come in for attack. And I think Tink should be offensive, but careful not to get hit by Pit. I'm pretty sure Tink's Dair beats Pit's Uair, though. Also, Tink's Uair is a pretty solid killing move. Even after Tink's Uair's hitboxes have been out for a while, they still have outrageous killing power when Pit is at high percentages. So watch out for that. The only move Tink has to worry about in the air is sweet-spot Bair and Fair. Tink should be worried about Fair only when he's at high percentages.

Off Stage:
When Tink if Off Stage, he really needs to be careful of Pit's Arrows and Mirror Shield gimp. Try to refrain from using Tink's Up B as much as possible, and go for the Tether recovery. If you must use Up B, vary your timing of it as much as possible. If you get to predictable, Pit will be able to Mirror Shield gimp you, and that means an instant stock loss for Tink. Pit should be working hard to push Tink as far away from the stage as possible and be using Arrows to wither down Tink's jumps. If Pit needs to go Off Stage and follow Tink, I suggest that you use Wing Refresh before you do so. If Tink manages to hit you with a projectile while you have WoI (Wings of Icarus) out, you should be able to recover anyways due to Wing Refreshing.

If Pit is Off Stage, Tink should be looking to hit Pit as soon as he uses Up B. Tink should try to be pushing Pit away from the stage as well, to force Pit to use his Up B. Although, Pit can also have the option of Flying under the stage. If Pit does this, get on the stage and stay near the middle of it. If you stay on the middle of the stage, you will be able to react quick enough if Pit decides to change which ledge he wants to go to. Also, watch out for Pits glide attack. If you are at high percentages, it can kill you instantly. If you aren't at high percentages, Pit can still follow up into a number of damaging combos with it. Again, Tink should be using everything at his disposal to hit Pit while he's using his Up B. And Pit should be varying his methods of recovery as much as possible as to not get gimped.

Stages:
I don't really know too much in this department, but I think you should take Pit to any stage with water, or a low cieling. Pit is just horrible in the water, so Tink should be able to spike him easily there. And since Tink has a bit more K.O. power than Pit, a stage with low cielings should be in Tink's advantage.

Overall, I think this MU is 50:50. Tink may have the advantage in some places, but Pit also has the advantage in other places. They're pretty much even.

Also, one more thing. In the Tink MU thread, the links to Pit's and ROB's discussions are mixed up. Get it fixed.

I hope this helped ^__^.

Pit main here.

My input is that you outcamp us and it's stupid and I hate it. And you're stupid. And I hate your zair.

55-45 Pit...

Pit gets inside pretty easily.

I think its safe to say that you can wrap this thread up. Got about as much productive input that you will get for this MU.

Some of my observations...

Pros
~Aerials come out generally faster - especially B-Air.
~Z-Air beats Angel Ring and outranges Pit's everything except arrows.
~TL beats Pit mid range/distance because he's got so many freaking tools. e.g. Z-Air, projectiles, F-Tilt, etc...
~Bomb beats Angel Ring.
~D-Air beats everything except a well timed U-Air.
~TL's can exploit Pit's Up-B making him surprisingly gimpable since TL's just spam projectiles off stage; and maybe D-Air lol.
~Better at vertical KO-ing.

Cons
~While not used as much as it could, Mirror Shield stops those darn projectiles.
~F-Air outrange most, if not all of TL's moves barring Z-Air.
~Pits will mostly win long range thanks to his standard, side and down B's.
~Pits will mostly win short range because he has more options. The TL will melee, pull out an arrow or boomerang but the Pit can shield punish with a grab, F-Smash, dash attack, ANGEL RING (lol), etc...
~Better at horizontal KO-ing, imo anyway.

Anyway, I think the MU is very even. 50-50.

Hope this helped.

Matchup Summary: Pit

Best stage to fight Pit on:


Other good stages:
Smashville
Delfino Plaza (Delfino is alright... Don't CP it, but it isn't awful if you happen to have to play there)


Worst stage to fight Pit on:


Other bad stages:
Yoshi's Island


Summary:

Pit has a reputation of being spammy with arrows and other moves. However, Tink has the tools to work through the spam, and even spam right back at Pit. Pit is relatively easy to gimp if you can keep him off stage, so a Pit player that knows the matchup will be trying to stay close to the ledge, or even on stage.

Pits arrows are one of the few projectiles in the game that will not normally be blocked by Toon's shield, as most Pits won't shoot the arrow directly at you, and it might hit above the shield's box anyway, I don't know that for sure, I'll check on it next time I fire up my wii and edit this summary. Bombs beat arrows, and Boomerang will clash with arrow, causing both to disappear, you can capitalize on that, as boomerang will be ready to throw immediately if it clashes with an arrow.

Pit has multiple tools for reflecting projectiles, Mirror shield and Angel ring. Mirror shield reflects everything, including zair, iirc. Mirror shield is only used sparingly by most Pit players, and if zair gets reflected, use an SH nair to punish. Angel ring is a less punishable reflector, but bombs and zair both go through it.

Zair is a useful tool against pit, and the zair --> nair combo will be a good way to rack up some good damage. As always, be sure to mix things up, you can still get punished if they powershield zair. Also keep in mind our aerials come out faster and for the most part have a bigger range and Pit's.

Pit's glide attack is very strong, his Fsmash is strong, avoid walls, he can lock you up against there. Just camp really hard once you start to get into kill percentage, Pit should have a harder time getting inside to score the kill move.

Vertical kill moves are recommended against Pit, normal fare there. But the ability to gimp Pit with projectiles is one huge advantage we have in this matchup, if you get them offstage, try to keep them from grabbing them ledge, play a hard ledge game, and then once they pop angel wings, hit them with anything and grab the ledge. It takes a while to build up momentum with that recovery, and once they're hit, they just fall , but they can still do aerials, so be sure to retether the ledge if necessary, lest you get stage spiked.

Evidently Pit can do the kind of thing with Mirror Shield that Mario can do with his cape, so be smart when you're using spin attack as a recovery, do it low and snap right to the ledge, but that should be standard anyway, just be extra careful so you don't lose a stock early.

Overall, I'd say Toon Link advantage due to the ease of the gimp and the overall quicker nature of our aerial game.
Slight Advantage 55:45

If a pit uses the glide attack correctly, Up Smash OoS won't work against them. Maybe up tilt.

And...ya.

K, fixed.

10fixed.

I disagree with the ratio. Should be 100:0 pit since jash lost to earth...

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Its 50-50 or TL 55-45.....earth was really smart and didn't leave any openings for jash

Besides he timed Jash out game 3 by hitting Jash with 5 secs left winning by 7% less damage......he UPB away from the stage after LOL

Lobos said:

Its 50-50 or TL 55-45.....earth was really smart and didn't leave any openings for jash

Besides he timed Jash out game 3 by hitting Jash with 5 secs left winning by 7% less damage......he UPB away from the stage after LOL

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Ur sarcasm-meter is fail.

I really don't think this was sarcasm bro :o

I agree with Lobos.