Underload
Lazy
Discuss the Zero Suit Samus matchup in here.
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Snake vs. Zero Suit Samus
- Thread starter Underload
- Start date
AfroQT
Smash Master
Hm Nick beats me like everytime now but i still think its in favor of snakeDiscuss the Zero Suit Samus matchup in here.
-Ran
Smash Master
Zss is a matter of knowing when you can actually attack. She has a ton of moves that you would think you can punish, but you simply can't. It's these gut reactions that lead to set ups for ZSS.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
-Know when to attack and what you can/can't punish.
-Don't throw anything at all except nades out blindly.
-Mix up your DI on her U-air, Dsmash, and Up-b
-Pieces will get Snake *****. I like to get rid of all but one and use that.
-Out of side step ZSS's like to U-tilt and Jab.
-The edges are not the best place to be. She has a Side-B, D-smash, Neutral Special. So think bout it.
-Shes has lots of great landing traps.(Side-B, Dsmash, etc.) Mix up your landings.
That's all I can think of, for now.
-Don't throw anything at all except nades out blindly.
-Mix up your DI on her U-air, Dsmash, and Up-b
-Pieces will get Snake *****. I like to get rid of all but one and use that.
-Out of side step ZSS's like to U-tilt and Jab.
-The edges are not the best place to be. She has a Side-B, D-smash, Neutral Special. So think bout it.
-Shes has lots of great landing traps.(Side-B, Dsmash, etc.) Mix up your landings.
That's all I can think of, for now.
TheSaintKai
Smash Ace
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418
Post #2.
That's our point of view, although old. I'll tell the others to raid this thread.
Post #2.
That's our point of view, although old. I'll tell the others to raid this thread.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
That is because they are stupid.
It's actually much at least 40:60 ZSS:Snake
you should've just said 6/4 snake
this seems like another matchup where you'll get ****ed if you dont know the tricks, not like there are very many zero suits to learn from
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Nick is all the stuff I said sound right?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
There you go.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
Hmm... Fsmash or do sticky shenanigans if you feel confident on missed grabs, we outcamp her obviously also edgehog the recovery but watch out for down B,when landing you need to use wavebounced nades and random Bairs if close(if you can predict the Uair air dodge it with a fastfall).
Don't get launched into the air since Uair pretty much destroys us if you can you can just pull out a nade when she is going to Uair you and DI away. Dtilt is one of the tools she will use to launch you into the air and juggle you. Please don't spotdoge since you can be punished really hard for it with Dsmash shenanigans.
When edgeguarding please try to cover up her already limited options to recover with C4s,mines and edgehogging.
We live long in this MU and she dies really early but she can rack up damage really fast. Please correct me if i am wrong with anything and hello Snake boards ^.^
Don't get launched into the air since Uair pretty much destroys us if you can you can just pull out a nade when she is going to Uair you and DI away. Dtilt is one of the tools she will use to launch you into the air and juggle you. Please don't spotdoge since you can be punished really hard for it with Dsmash shenanigans.
When edgeguarding please try to cover up her already limited options to recover with C4s,mines and edgehogging.
We live long in this MU and she dies really early but she can rack up damage really fast. Please correct me if i am wrong with anything and hello Snake boards ^.^
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
She wracks up damage fast, but only once Snake is launched. Her only real advantage here is that she has an amazing air game and Snake's is awful.
Snake also has to be careful when recovering. There's basically nothing he can do to avoid taking 20-30% damage every time he's launched off-stage.
With that said Snake has a clear stats advantage and ZSS has to approach. Granted she doesn't have much of a problem doing that because IMO 'nade camping is only as big a deal as she makes of it; ZSS has the 4th best ground speed, which is really helpful here. She can also easily avoid Snake's KO options.
Snake's dash attack is pretty **** annoying to me.
Snake's advantage, but by how much I'm not really sure, it isn't much.
Snake also has to be careful when recovering. There's basically nothing he can do to avoid taking 20-30% damage every time he's launched off-stage.
With that said Snake has a clear stats advantage and ZSS has to approach. Granted she doesn't have much of a problem doing that because IMO 'nade camping is only as big a deal as she makes of it; ZSS has the 4th best ground speed, which is really helpful here. She can also easily avoid Snake's KO options.
Snake's dash attack is pretty **** annoying to me.
Snake's advantage, but by how much I'm not really sure, it isn't much.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
Is it easy to tech chase ZSS? I know you can react to GUA but idk about the rolls
Blakmane
Smash Apprentice
ZSS has a fast roll and down-b to avoid tech chase shenanigans: i've never found it to be a particular issue.
once you get through the pieces it u should be good to go.
Snakes Dash attack ***** Zss it like clashes 75% of her moves,space with ftilt & dont get to greedy when playing her she will rack up damage quick if you through constant random tilts for kills you have to set up properly to get the kill because zss can just play the keep away game with her side b.
I find it useful to set more C4 then usual in this matchup because it limits her options and gives me more of a stage control
Snakes Dash attack ***** Zss it like clashes 75% of her moves,space with ftilt & dont get to greedy when playing her she will rack up damage quick if you through constant random tilts for kills you have to set up properly to get the kill because zss can just play the keep away game with her side b.
I find it useful to set more C4 then usual in this matchup because it limits her options and gives me more of a stage control
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Uhh... yeah.
but snakes dash attacks clashes with your Side B,Nutral B,Armor pieces,your dash attack & dsmash(not so sure). i feel sash attack dose great in this matchup its a good approach and it get snake really close to zss without feeling the need to spot doge alot.
As for the c4 i wouldn't use c4 like i would in this matchup because i dont believe zss would snake is a bad position for him to C4 up.
Zss side B Imo <---Imo >_> is good enough i mean not for killing but for spacing us out of your uncomforted zone
As for the c4 i wouldn't use c4 like i would in this matchup because i dont believe zss would snake is a bad position for him to C4 up.
Zss side B Imo <---Imo >_> is good enough i mean not for killing but for spacing us out of your uncomforted zone
6Mizu
Smash Champion
<3
teach me ZSS. Haha.
-Ran
Smash Master
Let's examine the issues that Snake has:
1) After he has used his Cypher, he is incredibly weak returning to the stage.
- Zss is able to punish Snake incredibly easy when he's doing this, as long as she abstains from her grab.
2) Snake's recovery is very vertical and punishable.
- When fresh, ZSS can knock you out of Cypher with many of her moves, but more importantly she can force an air dodge out of Cypher by utilizing her forward B to space, even without the intention of hitting.
3) Snake likes to throw them 'nades.
- Zss has an above average movement speed both in the air, and on the ground. Most of her moves are NOT multihit, and allow her to avoid accidentally exploding grenades. Furthermore, she has an excellent glide toss if she manages to catch a grenade long enough to use it. With her fast jab, she'll be fine.
4) Snake's ground and pound.
- If ZSS shields your first F-tilt, she can grab you. Regardless of how you space it, if I recall.
- Zss's Out of shield game is relatively poor, as long as you do not give her the opportunity to do something with you due to move lag. This means using grenades effectively to force her to react OOS.
- Many of ZSS's ground moves are deceptive in how long their end-lag would be: Dash attack, Down Smash, Forward B, up-tilt, and a few others.
- Against ZSS, you must tech carefully. Down smash to Up b can happen, and if you aren't prepared to tech/DI properly, will result in extra, unnecessary damage.
- D-smash is amazing, and gives ZSS a reliable kill setup into her aerials.
5) Snake hates to be in the air.
- Zss can kill from the air with Uair and Bair at respectable percents.
- Zss will juggle with Uair more often than not, and some have adapted trickery with Nair due to its larger hitsun.
- There's also the possibility of Up B to 'yoink' you down into an Up air.
6) Snake can't edge guard off the stage.
- Aside from perfectly timing a bair during ZSS's side b or up b to the level, Snake can't venture out against her. Missing her, results on Snake being on the ledge, and he has incredibly poor options there.
- Zss can edgeguard Snake incredibly well, if at the least for damage. Unfortunately, her edge game isn't that hot either. Her Nair lacks range off the edge, and her Side-B risks the chance of retethering.
Correct me, Mr. McRiddle.
1) After he has used his Cypher, he is incredibly weak returning to the stage.
- Zss is able to punish Snake incredibly easy when he's doing this, as long as she abstains from her grab.
2) Snake's recovery is very vertical and punishable.
- When fresh, ZSS can knock you out of Cypher with many of her moves, but more importantly she can force an air dodge out of Cypher by utilizing her forward B to space, even without the intention of hitting.
3) Snake likes to throw them 'nades.
- Zss has an above average movement speed both in the air, and on the ground. Most of her moves are NOT multihit, and allow her to avoid accidentally exploding grenades. Furthermore, she has an excellent glide toss if she manages to catch a grenade long enough to use it. With her fast jab, she'll be fine.
4) Snake's ground and pound.
- If ZSS shields your first F-tilt, she can grab you. Regardless of how you space it, if I recall.
- Zss's Out of shield game is relatively poor, as long as you do not give her the opportunity to do something with you due to move lag. This means using grenades effectively to force her to react OOS.
- Many of ZSS's ground moves are deceptive in how long their end-lag would be: Dash attack, Down Smash, Forward B, up-tilt, and a few others.
- Against ZSS, you must tech carefully. Down smash to Up b can happen, and if you aren't prepared to tech/DI properly, will result in extra, unnecessary damage.
- D-smash is amazing, and gives ZSS a reliable kill setup into her aerials.
5) Snake hates to be in the air.
- Zss can kill from the air with Uair and Bair at respectable percents.
- Zss will juggle with Uair more often than not, and some have adapted trickery with Nair due to its larger hitsun.
- There's also the possibility of Up B to 'yoink' you down into an Up air.
6) Snake can't edge guard off the stage.
- Aside from perfectly timing a bair during ZSS's side b or up b to the level, Snake can't venture out against her. Missing her, results on Snake being on the ledge, and he has incredibly poor options there.
- Zss can edgeguard Snake incredibly well, if at the least for damage. Unfortunately, her edge game isn't that hot either. Her Nair lacks range off the edge, and her Side-B risks the chance of retethering.
Correct me, Mr. McRiddle.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Side-b is too slow to be an effective spacer on somebody with a projectile. (Like Snake.)
Come to the ZSS boards then. :D
Huzzah!
6Mizu
Smash Champion
@nickriddle: i will, but only if u personally teach me ZSS. Deal?
And u still up for the friendly u promised me at MLG Raleigh?
And u still up for the friendly u promised me at MLG Raleigh?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I'll try.
And, okay.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Thanks Nick, and I'll try my best to learn.
I'm going there Nick.
I'm going there Nick.
-Ran
Smash Master
What I mean is, by using properly timed/placed grenades to force ZSS to shield, it enables you to put her into a poor situation due to her OSS options.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I guess if the ZSS is scared of nades, and doesn't like jumping, it could work.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Nick wats the best option if a ZSS's dsmash hits snakes sheild?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
For Snake?
ZSS is actually safe if a d-smash hits your shield. We have a +3, or something like that, so we can followup without fear of getting hit. So, it's normally stay in your shield, or drop shield pull nade.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
I thought so, I wanted to be sure though. And I knew her dsmash was safe. Thanks.
Underload
Lazy
I'm following Mizu! I've actually been playing mostly ZSS the past 2 weeks. Watching videos of Nick and Dazwa, figuring out the spacing on her moves, etc. It feels nice have a character that has some quick moves & frame advantage. Probably time to get some better information.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
<3 undies! Thanks bro tht makes me feel special.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
60:40 Snake's advantage seems fine
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
60:40 Snake's favor.
Let's do it!
Let's do it!
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I think it's pretty even on some stages, and blatantly ZSS" favor on others (like RC and Brinstar) but definitely for Snake on neutrals.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
On brinstar its not a complete lost at least we can kill really early in that stage o.o
CO18
Smash Hero
Yeah I agree with 6:4 snake.
RATED
Smash Lord
we can kill early everytime we want, we use snake
I don't think that Snake vs ZSS is that bad in Brinstar or RC srsly
you just have to adapt your playstyle in those stages against the character, snake can adapt well considering his tools(grenades, blah blah blah)
I agree with you all in 60:40 Snake favour
Sync.
Smash Champion
I suggest for at the beginning of the match to be able to z catch those armor pieces. Read your opponent for favorite ways of approach with them such as glide toss or dropping them from above or something. Those pieces are **** against you but the **** just as hard so I suggest taking control of them as if you were playing a Diddy. It can really help if you take the lead early because it's hard to get it back from Snake because he dies so late.
ZTD | TECHnology
Developing New TECHnology
Snake using Zamus' armor pieces is the exact same concept as anyone but Diddy using his bananas. Snake cannot use them nearly as effectively as her. Many Zamus' tend to throw all but one off the stage for mobility purposes/risk of not having them used against her. But even if we do get one we don't have a (usuable) Glide Toss lol I'd rather toss it off the stage and just eliminate any chance or her getting it back. I like using ADCT (air dodge canceled throw) as a safe way of getting rid of badly thrown pieces.
60-40 Snake seems just fine as a ratio. Zamus' CPs arent that bad for us anyway.
60-40 Snake seems just fine as a ratio. Zamus' CPs arent that bad for us anyway.
Brawlin
Smash Journeyman
I think this matchup is in Snake's favor but I think 55:45. ZSS is very good at juggling and Snake is susceptible to juggling.