BBR Weekly Character Discussion #13: Wario

I definitely thought this character's playstyle was going completely stale until I saw some of Gluttony's videos. Bike parts are pretty amazing. That said, I still think he fits in nicely where he is, tier wise.

FIrst. lol ill say something in 10 Mins this time

edit. FUUUUUUUUU

Yeah, Wario is very good and bike parts have added a whole new aspect to his metagame. I think he's very solid where he is, but could possibly move up a bit depending on how other characters shift around.

He hardly even has any real "bad" matchups since air camping and fart allow him to overcome almost any setback. Even DeDeDe is doable on most stages if the Wario knows the matchup. Wario is just a very solid character all around, and his unique aerial mobility gives him incredible pressure and escape abilities.

I dont know much about lots of MU with Wario but...

He has every tool to fight Snake easily. His moblity gives Snake a hard time recovering and usually leads into a fart or an UAIR. He is one of all chars that can SDI Snake's Nair in no time.

Fart that kills Snake at 75-80ish is a super good thing since Snake is known as tanking forever.

Vs MK. I think you need the Tires. Tires will greatly help vs MK though I dont know TOO much about it so I wont say much.

Wario has amazing CPS. Almost no stage is bad for him.

Def a solid character and is very viable. Just need more smart players with Wario

Pretty much everything JD (which is what I plan to call you until you change your name back btw) just said. I think he's an excellent character that is starting to freshen up a bit again. I expect to see more and more Warios performing well over the fall. He's just such a good character. He lives forever and racks up damage like no other. The timer is his friend like no other. Waft is super broke and he has a powerful Fsmash with super armor. No trouble getting kills there. Where many characters struggle in brawl, Wario succeeds exceedingly well. Has little trouble recovering, has little trouble surviving, and has little trouble getting the kills he needs. He's great on most stages as well.

The only thing I think holds him back is his one glaring weakness in that some matchups get turned around completely by grabs. I think Ally told me it was three or four grabs by Falcon and that's a stock off Wario? Ganondorf gets a 0-death on FD; the list goes on. Still, he's also one of the hardest, if not the hardest character to grab in the game, so his drawback isn't even that bad in the long run.

Wario is good, but not great.

IMO, to be a top wario atm, it's not about fart camping or air planking at all. It's about how you utilize his tires. A while back i thought wario's metagame was completely done, then people started figuring out his stupid lil Chain Grabs and that progressed it a little. Now some wario's have shown the next progression which is tire play (me, glutonny, krystedez). <--those are probably the best examples of warios that are really showing what this character is capable of.

Aight, Main things you need vs wario.

-People need to still learn how to play against this character. Smash DI and PIVOT GRABS are ESSENTIAL for playing against wario. If you know when to SDI, instead of taking 30-40%, you're going to be taking like 5% and hitting the wario. He has to commit to alot of his "combos".
-You NEED to pivot grab wario, no matter your character...even another wario can shut down wario with pivot grab. A prime example of this is Glutonny Vs Ally at that paris tourney recently. I talked to Ally about it a bit and wathcing the vids, i knew exactly what he was doing wrong. In WFs, Ally was basically spamming pivot grab, Dthrowing and tech chasing putting up easy percent (warios roll is terrible). Then when GFs came around, Ally started rolling where he should have been pivot grabbing. IMO, that was the biggest factor in ally losing that tourney (and the 140+ ppl cheering against him)

Aight, umm...matchups?

I'll just go over top tier:

Metaknight vs Wario - 60:40 or worse if the mk actually knows what to do. This is one of warios worst matchups by far, he has no CP stage and gets out ranged hard core, the only way a warios going to win this matchup is straight up out smarting the mk and knowing how to use tires.

Snake vs Wario - 45:55. IMO wario's easiest top tier matchup by far, but i've always just been really good vs snake and from the looks of it, every wario besides me and glutonny suck at this matchup. If the snake isnt extremely careful, he's going to get gimped. Bite ***** snake and puts him in a really bad position and wario has the mobility to destroy snake in the air.

Diddy vs Wario - 50:50 imo. this matchup is silly, both rack dmg up on eachother really quick. diddy has an issue killing wario because he doesnt kill off the top. I think this matchup is even for the simple fact that both character absolutely **** with bananas. Wario has so many nana combos and free kill setups with them.

Falco vs Wario - Theres two ratios for this matchup. If the wario doesn't know the 52-120% chain grab, this matchup is basically 65:35 or somewhere around there on neutrals. WITH that chain grab, It's completely even. 50:50 or stage dependent to give wario the advantage. This, imo, is one of the most even matchups in the game. If falco cgs warios to 60, w/e no biggie, the wario isnt going to be dying anytime soon and once falco gets to 52%, one grab = he's going to up to 120+ = kill percent with fresh clap. The biggest issue wario has in this matchup is getting in on falco, laser laser side b is really hard to read/punish with wario. Ftilt is his only move that truly goes through side b. Whoever gets the first stock will most likely be leading the whole game in this matchup. wario can edgeguard falco really well. Instant wipeout with bike on the edge scares falcos into side b'ing onto the stage instead of going for the edge which ='s a free punish. Clap or fart probably wario's best killing moves in this matchup since he has to commit to fsmash and ftilt and can get shielded -> punish.

ugh....i g2g for now. ill finish later.

Tires look good until you realize the massive distance you can SDI them.

I think there really isn't much left to the character besides fully exploiting his camp game. Im talking about that hardcore 8 minute marathon man mentality. I think that is what shapes him to be such a good character.

There really isn't anything left to Wario. It's just about being a really smart player at this point.

hunger! said:

(and the 140+ ppl cheering against him)

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They didn't cheer against Ally, they cheered for Glutonny.
While the "side" is the same, it is a big difference there.

Anyway, I agree with what hunger! said, but also what Reflex and DMG said. Wario doesn't have much else left to his metagame, even the tire-game won't be advancing him as much. He'll still be left with a stale metagame.
Despite this, he probably will never leave the high tier because he has the tools to be an amazing character in smart hands, as Reflex said.

DMG said:

Tires look good until you realize the massive distance you can SDI them.

I think there really isn't much left to the character besides fully exploiting his camp game. Im talking about that hardcore 8 minute marathon man mentality. I think that is what shapes him to be such a good character.

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They have alot of hitlag or a strong multiplier?

Tyrant is one of the best wario's in the world by far (easily top 3) at least vs MK, and he thinks the wario vs MK matchup is even. I think MK barely, barely has the advantage. My DDD ***** the **** out of his Wario though.

air dodge to grab is very good, so is air dodge to spot dodge to grab. If you think they will ever spot dodge you just bite instead of grab. You can camp forever, be very good at it, and get a strong fart that either kills at 60 or does 40%+ upon hitting them. Tornado doesn't do anything to a good Wario because you can just jump around it and over it and Dair the top of it. Only very defensive tornados can be good, but only when it's to the point that you can't hit them at all, so I have learned from experience that tornado is a horrible strategy. Boost up smash is good if you use it randomly. Stop trying to act like Wario sucks. This character is amazingly amazing. Tyrant is one of the only Wario's that actually knows the matchup that I've ever played. Maybe you guys should talk to him for advice.

I learned from Tyrant, and It really helps but, nobody really believes what I'm saying.

After picking him up for 2 months, Last weekend I beat out players like RedJ, Choice and I 3-1'd Sean in losers Finals.

Idk, Wario is a great character, and MK doesn't just '****' him. 5th in the game Imo.

Wario is a fantastic character, with a very steep learning curve. He's one of the characters I think still has the most room to grow.

I've always said Peach's best pullable item is Mr. Saturn, because of the hitstun and combos you can create with it (as well as shieldbreaks :3 ). While not quite as good as Mr. Saturn, the bike tires are a FANTASTIC projectile if used well.

I dunno. Wario's not the best character in the game, obviously. He pales in comparison to MK. But...I think he's in the same class as Snake/Diddy/Falco/ICs.

Wario's boost upsmash is seriously under used..it's pretty good.

Praxis said:

But...I think he's in the same class as Snake/Diddy/Falco/ICs.

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I just want to reiterate that quote from Praxis. I'm not sure Wario can surpass any of those characters, but he's definitely essentially on the same level, and a step above the next tier. I do think he is better than marth as well, but there aren't many marths on display in the Midwest.

Wario is so freaking good that he deserves top5 imo.

MK
Falco
Snake
Diddy
Wario
Marth

Wario has every tool he needs to beat ANYONE in this game, including ddd(Even hunger thinks its in warios favor i believe. Or at least used to). I think his air grab(bite) is so essential and important to him being top tier along with his aerial mobility. His fart kill ridiculously low and easy to set-up if you know how to bait an airdodge. A grab that is amazingly fast and causes 10+ damage as well as combo's from dair/nair/fair truly makes him a great character.

I'm not sure in how's the wario vs D3 match-up but Wario does have the tools to beat him, bite + wario's mobility kinda destroys DDD's defensive game, wario can jump around until being next to him and just bite his shield/ his spotdodge. He also can gimp him easily with his aerials and can punish D3's recovery with a fart. The only problem is D3 can gimp him and he does an insane quantity of damage from a grab, but if Wario manages to avoid that he should win.

Also on a side note I've seen pivot grabs are one of the best ways to catch wario when he's landing near you, people should pivot grab more vs him.

edit: Besides the top tiers I see Sheik as one of the hardest match-ups for wario, he kinda has the tools to beat him.

I agree with Gallax, Wario is most assuedly a top 5 character.
Yes he does have some problematic matchups, but he can still win them reasonably.
Marth>Diddy *flees*

@Marcbri: yes, its an excellent way to grab him while he is landing or flat out doing anything. Wario's aerials have poor range, so many characters can pivot grab him as part of their defense.
This, however, really isnt much of an issue because he has such very good mobility, and killing him is difficult since I believe he is considered a heavyweight.
Farting is such a great option as well, kills at low percents, drops a HUGE amount of damage, even more so against a character such as Snake who typically tanks but can risk dying at a low percent.

..........

Masky said:

wait... uh... isn't someone from the BBR supposed to write a conclusion or something?

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not in this iteration.

I disagree. Warios bite in fact does **** DDD badly if used correctly. I do agree with DMG tho. Warios camp game is what makes him deadly. His ability to survive and not have hating bad maps to play on also make him top 5 in my eyes. Marth matchup isn't as bad as everyone thinks. All about short hop air dodging looking for that opening to get in side marth and then rack up damage. I def think he should go up a spot or 2. I haven't seen tyrants wario at all so I don't know what to expect from it.

I feel Bite is a bad move overall because it removes Wario's prominent advantages: Mobility and Non-committal pressure. Bite has average speed, but the way people are suggesting using it is actually really slow and predictable. The main problem I see people have against Wario is that they shield too early, for too long. When Wario is above you, and you are grounded, his fast options are Dair or Uair/Nair when he gets really close. These things you can shield on his way down, yet I see people shielding before he can even fast fall after his DJ. If he comes in with a SH, there are other problems to worry about.

Falling with Bite from the air IMO isn't that strong because it's only good on people who are shielding too much. Shielding against Wario isn't as strong as simply trying to outspace him while maintaining safety.

Wario - Marth
Wario - Peach
Wario - DDD
Wario - Luigi

4 really troublesome matchups for Wario, for as far as I know.

Luigi isn't. The first 3 are definitely not fun. Luigi is roughly 6:4 for Wario. Luigi's problem is that he is badly outmaneuvered horizontally in the air, and his ground game isn't solid enough to rely on against Wario.

Also Shiek I don't feel is that bad for Wario. That matchup really depends on how good your poke game as Wario is. Once he gets in, Shiek also has to work getting back to a neutral position.

Xonar said:

Wario - Marth
Wario - Peach
Wario - DDD
Wario - Luigi

4 really troublesome matchups for Wario, for as far as I know.

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Luigi is hard I agree. DDD isn't as hard as people think it is.

DDD: yeah i would say that it is hard for wario but is winable. Just be patient. imo: 50:50

Marth: yes another hard matchup but I personally have an alright time against marths just dont be dumb and rush in. You will eat a fair or get grabbed. imo: 45:55

Sheik: This matchup is all about control. If you lose control then shiek should be able to win. If you have the control, dont lose it!! Sheik will Ftilt and up tilt your approaches. imo: 55:45

Peach: Dark Peach showed me that wario can not get baited into peach if he wants to win. I was agro against him and he punished the **** out of me. But i did not get grabbed much so I am guessing that it is hard for peach to grab wario. Just keep your space against peach and watch for openings. imo: 50:50

MK: this guy sucks imo: somewhere in between 40:60 & 45:55

I don't think people will ever really agree on Wario's MUs, especially with regards to the ones mentioned so far (+ Falco, really). It's sad to see this little discussion on a character like Wario, might as well have allowed the discussion to last longer than this (only the most basic of stuff has been mentioned, really, some of it being false information).

What happen? Pivot grab only destroys Wario's approaches, dair doesn't consistently beat Nado and Bite is situational against DDD (and all other characters, for that matter). This discussion makes me sad.

*Takes a deepbreath*

Wario never had such a metagame boost and this is still true. But, everytime I watch a new Wario player playing, I get something new from their play styles and try to implement into mine, there's no exactly RIGHT way to play Wario or the best way to play him still.

Well, I think Wario is not about camping or punishing. I think it's about adaptability and MU experience, those come with time and with the support from the air planking/extreme camp and his good aerial mobility to punish stuff allied to a really consistent grabgame/bites. Wario got the exact tools to get over almost all patterns your opponent should have, some might be hella hard and you might take a lot of time to get over those situations buts it's again a matter of time. That's why smart Warios tend to be ahead of the rest of them, they adapt faster, they punish harder and get through patterns. This part is more about the mentality when playing Wario now lets head on the next part.

Wario's a beast at racking up damage, his aerial do great % and his grabs also (so does bite), but thats probably it. Wario ain't got good kill moves besides waft which is amazing and Uair (if not stale), and relying only on one KO option which comes in every minute (waft) seems 'not enough'. That's why tires have been accepted so well, they fit perfectly on the % rack part and also on the KO part, they allow you to try a safe FSmash/Uair/anotherkillmove by abusing from the tire hitstun and any KO you do WITHOUT using the fart is so good because on your opponents next stock you got the opportunity on killing him at low %s or just doing 30% in a row.

Getting directly to the point, Wario's metagame is probably done. Yes, this is true, but he still got a LOT of options, probably the character which the most of them. As said before, I get something new everytime I see a new Wario video, If you learn correctly how to use those options you might never get into bad trouble like getting read, there are so many things to workaround on the match and the aircamping gives you time AND space to think about it all the time and realize on what you are doing wrong and you get a kill chance every minute as 'bonus'. I would talk about his safe options and stuff, but this is well known by everybody so...

Well, I talked too much here but I think I made my self clear. I wanted to talk more about Marth MU but whatever... Warios does fine in every matchup there is no such 70:30 or no winnable matchup, you are going to get ***** on some matchups where you gotta be patient and know it well like DDD/Peach. It's all about knowing the matchup and the shenanigans that happen, some of them might **** you badly, but I'm pretty sure Wario has got the tools and MUST have the patience to overcome this. Also don't you should NOT rush into anything. As said before, Wario has got the tools but those ain't got so much range to get into good defenses there's where the bait comes on

@Thread

I really wanted to discuss with you guys, but I'd rather write an overview of the characters actual scene instead of discussing on what is wrong or right. Good discussion also, just don't argue too strongly... Other people might see it as rude.

Wario is pretty darn good. Definitly Top 5 or 6 if played really well
You have to be really really gay with Wario to win, especially vs characters who goes even with/is disadvantaged against. His grab range is stupid, it seems so much bigger than lots of other characters. Which is pretty darn ironic considering his horrible grab release animation

Peach Marth MK hard.

D3 tricky but doable.

Luigi not hard.

Wario top 5

All Wario's except Glutonny bad, that's all.

Agree with above post.

I agree with above two posts except Peach being hard.

Peach doable.

I love wario hes a really fantastic character and with a really good future , atm its all bout tires and campin. He has enough tools to get any character on the game.

But imo if ur using wario u need to be patient and also you need to get those watfs on yer opponent face.

I didn't realize such... uhh... intelligence was let into the backroom.

I fell that Wario is a versatile offense and defense character easier, it's just the current metagame forces most Wario users to play him defensive and in favor of camping just simply for the Waft.

Wario can easily be played aggressively to add pressure, and I only like using the Waft as a defensive weapon rather than offensive

Wario's always going to be a very threatening character, but I can't imagine him being the absolute big threat when compared to other characters.

Wario's probably top 5 and below MK, Falco, Snake, and Diddy (as of now). Wario has bike potential but it's risky and somewhat unneeded in some matchups. I wouldn't say it'd s gimmick as much as it's just another strategy. He's also viable on just about every stage, except for FD in a few matchups and even then it's not THAT bad. For example, in Japan they only play on neutrals, and he still does well.

I also feel that his matchups will continue to shift as our number one hardest matchup is being argued as of being in our favor now. Who's to say the same won't happen with D3, or even MK again? With the multiple ways of playing as the character, he'll always be good, but others will tend to be better (or at least seen as better).

Wario will never be number one, but may be number two at a time. He's not placing below top 9 anytime soon though on the tier list. For right now, 5th seems about perfect.