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BBR Weekly Character Discussion #15: Captain Olimar
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
AllyKnight
Banned via Administration
in 15 mins ill say sometjhing
What, no comment about a similar Melee character? I'm dissapointed Marc.
I"ll say one thing, Olimar's recovery isn't nearly as bad as a lot of posters make it out to be. It's kind of bad but IMO it's better than snakes. Snake is heavier so he lives longer, but I think Snake's recovery is easier to gimp than Olimar's because of Oli's whistle.
I"ll say one thing, Olimar's recovery isn't nearly as bad as a lot of posters make it out to be. It's kind of bad but IMO it's better than snakes. Snake is heavier so he lives longer, but I think Snake's recovery is easier to gimp than Olimar's because of Oli's whistle.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
I fully agree that Oli's recovery isn't really that bad at all. It might be a bit sub-par, but I can think of PLENTY of characters who are far easier to gimp than Olimar.
Olimar is possibly the most difficult character to approach in the game, if not, he certainly comes close. He has insane damage wracking, amazing kill power, and surprising survivability in the right hands. He is the only character in the game that doesn't have grab armor, but even that is a weakness that is far over exaggerated. His huge grab range and excellent pivot grab make actually landing grabs incredibly easy, even without grab armor.
I hear a lot of things said about how bad his priority is, but that's another weakness that just never really seems to matter to Olimar. A good Olimar always seems to be able to get off the damage that he needs and put his opponents into an awkward situation that forces them to get hit or get grabbed.
Along with Pikachu, Olimar is the other character that I believe strongly deserves being in the present A-tier. Probably at the bottom or near it, as he isn't as good as the other current A-tier members, but he is clearly better than anyone else in B-tier by a significant margin. He and Pikachu are both significantly better than DeDeDe in my opinion.
Move Oli and Pika up to current A-tier (which would be larger than it currently is, which I think is good), and let DeDeDe be the king of B-tier.
Olimar is possibly the most difficult character to approach in the game, if not, he certainly comes close. He has insane damage wracking, amazing kill power, and surprising survivability in the right hands. He is the only character in the game that doesn't have grab armor, but even that is a weakness that is far over exaggerated. His huge grab range and excellent pivot grab make actually landing grabs incredibly easy, even without grab armor.
I hear a lot of things said about how bad his priority is, but that's another weakness that just never really seems to matter to Olimar. A good Olimar always seems to be able to get off the damage that he needs and put his opponents into an awkward situation that forces them to get hit or get grabbed.
Along with Pikachu, Olimar is the other character that I believe strongly deserves being in the present A-tier. Probably at the bottom or near it, as he isn't as good as the other current A-tier members, but he is clearly better than anyone else in B-tier by a significant margin. He and Pikachu are both significantly better than DeDeDe in my opinion.
Move Oli and Pika up to current A-tier (which would be larger than it currently is, which I think is good), and let DeDeDe be the king of B-tier.
i support everything he just said
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Olimar is busted lol. I almost wonder what the hell they were thinking when they made a character that small with hitboxes that big. He's got more range than snake and is like 1/3 the size. He can spam and force approaches on most of the cast and rack up damage as quickly as any top tier. If he -didn't- have a tether recovery and instead has something more normal, he'd definitely be one of the top couple of characters in the game.
Also purple pikmin are bull****.
Also purple pikmin are bull****.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Bout time XD Alright long post incoming.
I think Olimar's positioning on the tier list is well placed. He isn't better than Pikachu, and I wouldn't necessarily put him above DDD, either. But that's debatable.
Olimar survives on keeping his opponent away at all costs. He has amazing tools at keeping an approaching opponent out of his bubble, with spacing tools like forward smash, grab, and purple pikmin toss, but suffers greatly when the opponent manages to get in. He does have low priority (since pikmin have hurtboxes) and his attacks are by no means fast (decent speed smashes and an eleven frame grab). He also doesn't have grab armor, which is a problem, when it matters. It doesn't necessarily make his grab bad, but prevents him from using it for anything other than spacing or punishing, basically. His close range options are also extremely limited. His smashes aren't quick enough to keep him protected without enough space between the two characters.
Whistle: Without a doublt the #1 tool keeping Olimar from being mid tier. It's the main thing keeping his recovery from being trash. Whistle lasts 20 frames, and fifteen of those frames contain super armor (2-16). It's what keeps him from getting gimped, comboed, etc. I'd say it's his best attack, although that's obviously debatable.
Olimar also has great combo and kill potential. Purple Upsmash killing at 90% is no surprise, with red/blue killing 10-15% later, fresh. Blue and Purple uthrow also kill around 150% and 120% respectively. And there are several others, Dsmash and Fair are also good for kills, though not as dramatic as up smash and up throw. But those are his main four attacks used for kills, anything else requires the opponent to **** up in some way or another, haha. He also has a guaranteed kill setup on almost every character at any percent, when landing a nair before the last hit connects, comboing into up smash.
A common misconception for Olimar's kill options is with his Blue Throws. Blue forward and back throws are not kill moves! They don't reliably kill until ~170% or later if the opponent has the simplest idea of what DI is. They're good for dealing damage when dthrow is stale, getting opponents off stage for Olimar to regain stage control, or go for edge guards. But blue up throw is far and beyond a better kill move.
Olimar's damage racking potential is incredible. He has a guaranteed 25 - 40% on each character out of a grab at low percents, and reacting accordingly, is able to deal much more. His grabs in general, outside of guaranteed combos, are incredible setups, and Olimar as a character thrives at juggling. Pikmin deal latch damage 18 frames after connecting with the opponent and then every 30 frames after that, so a good portion of the time the opponent will take at least one hit from a pikmin latched onto them. Pikmin Toss isn't really great for damage racking, though. It isn't a solid projectile, aside from purples. It's real purpose is in forcing the opponent to approach, and thus fall into Olimar's traps. Whites, however, obviously deal much more damage when latched (6% per hit, compared to 2%), which proves to be a problem for characters that have difficulties removing pikmin without leaving themselves open, or opponents that choose to eat the latch damage in order to get in on Olimar easier.
Matchups: Olimar's matchups are weird... Against the top tiers, it's really sporadic. He has difficult matchups against Meta Knight and Marth, and some Olimars believe Falco to have a solid advantage over him, though the general consensus is that DEHF is a god and it's only slightly in Falco's favor. Ice Climbers is also considered to be a difficult matchup for Olimar as well. Olimar does solidly beat DDD, and has one of the best matchups against Snake, alongside Meta Knight. He goes even with Diddy Kong and Wario, however. As well as Pikacu, who most Olimars believe him to have an slight advantage over. Olimar getting destroyed by Peach is a complete exaggeration. It's barely in her advantage, and definitely the least of a problem out of his "bad" matchups. Luigi, on the other hand, does give Olimar a hard time, and was for awhile considered his worst matchup.
Olimar has the problem, however, of going even in almost every matchup imaginable. He doesn't really dominate as many characters as most top/high tier characters do. A lot of matchups that are (or were) considered to be strongly in Olimar's favor aren't that dramatic, when compared to characters like DDD or Falco that completely destroy almost all of the mid and low tier characters.
As for tournament placements, Olimar's a bit under represented, when it comes to top levels of play. Rich Brown, Pyronic Star (Logic), and Dabuz are considered to be the best three Olimars and place well relatively every tournament they attend. I'm not sure how to elaborate more on this subject.
Stages: Olimar's stage choices depend almost entirely on what pros and cons the opponent gets on the stage and how Olimar well can take advantage of the opponent's cons, rather than how Olimar does on it. He has a few stages that he can fall back on (such as Halberd), but compared to characters like Falco that have set good stages and set bad stages, Olimar does not. His "good" stages are only really good in half of his matchups, and his "bad" stages are only bad in half of his matchups. Rainbow Cruise is terrible for Olimar against five or six characters. But other than that, it's a great stage. Same with Brinstar, imo. Although some other Olimars will say differently, haha. He's very adaptable to stages. Olimar also has the perk of being able to benefit off of Pikmin Pluck Percentages with his counterpicks, or even when counterpicked! Frigate is usually a great stage to take Olimar to, but the fact that it increases the amount of Purples and Yellows he pulls weakens the blow he takes, in most matchups.
Placement: Olimar should definitely stay below Pikachu, and probably stay below DDD, although I could see him rising above him. Olimar and DDD have similar matchup consistencies. Both don't do that well against Meta Knight, but both have good matchups against Snake. Both go even with Wario and Diddy. Olimar loses to Marth while DDD goes even with him, while the opposite can be said against Falco, Olimar going about even while DDD gets countered. The main difference other than these is that DDD loses against Olimar, Ice Climbers, and Pikachu, while Olimar goes even against Pikachu, beats DDD, and has a slight disadvantage against Ice Climbers. So Olimar has better matchups against top and high tiers, however DDD has a better habit of dominating certain characters in the lower tiers, while Olimar doesn't as dramatically.
Olimar has a much larger learning curve than DDD, which I feel is a huge hinderance to his placements, as many players end up giving up when things are hard in the beginning. It also makes him close to impossible to be used as a secondary, which limits how much he can be represented. Too much memorization, work, and patience is required to not be terrible with Olimar, many things of which you can't apply to other characters, or can't have picked up after maining another character. Which is why you never see a top or high skill level player that secondaries Olimar. And those that do, end up stopping half way.
I think Olimar's positioning on the tier list is well placed. He isn't better than Pikachu, and I wouldn't necessarily put him above DDD, either. But that's debatable.
Olimar survives on keeping his opponent away at all costs. He has amazing tools at keeping an approaching opponent out of his bubble, with spacing tools like forward smash, grab, and purple pikmin toss, but suffers greatly when the opponent manages to get in. He does have low priority (since pikmin have hurtboxes) and his attacks are by no means fast (decent speed smashes and an eleven frame grab). He also doesn't have grab armor, which is a problem, when it matters. It doesn't necessarily make his grab bad, but prevents him from using it for anything other than spacing or punishing, basically. His close range options are also extremely limited. His smashes aren't quick enough to keep him protected without enough space between the two characters.
Whistle: Without a doublt the #1 tool keeping Olimar from being mid tier. It's the main thing keeping his recovery from being trash. Whistle lasts 20 frames, and fifteen of those frames contain super armor (2-16). It's what keeps him from getting gimped, comboed, etc. I'd say it's his best attack, although that's obviously debatable.
Olimar also has great combo and kill potential. Purple Upsmash killing at 90% is no surprise, with red/blue killing 10-15% later, fresh. Blue and Purple uthrow also kill around 150% and 120% respectively. And there are several others, Dsmash and Fair are also good for kills, though not as dramatic as up smash and up throw. But those are his main four attacks used for kills, anything else requires the opponent to **** up in some way or another, haha. He also has a guaranteed kill setup on almost every character at any percent, when landing a nair before the last hit connects, comboing into up smash.
A common misconception for Olimar's kill options is with his Blue Throws. Blue forward and back throws are not kill moves! They don't reliably kill until ~170% or later if the opponent has the simplest idea of what DI is. They're good for dealing damage when dthrow is stale, getting opponents off stage for Olimar to regain stage control, or go for edge guards. But blue up throw is far and beyond a better kill move.
Olimar's damage racking potential is incredible. He has a guaranteed 25 - 40% on each character out of a grab at low percents, and reacting accordingly, is able to deal much more. His grabs in general, outside of guaranteed combos, are incredible setups, and Olimar as a character thrives at juggling. Pikmin deal latch damage 18 frames after connecting with the opponent and then every 30 frames after that, so a good portion of the time the opponent will take at least one hit from a pikmin latched onto them. Pikmin Toss isn't really great for damage racking, though. It isn't a solid projectile, aside from purples. It's real purpose is in forcing the opponent to approach, and thus fall into Olimar's traps. Whites, however, obviously deal much more damage when latched (6% per hit, compared to 2%), which proves to be a problem for characters that have difficulties removing pikmin without leaving themselves open, or opponents that choose to eat the latch damage in order to get in on Olimar easier.
Matchups: Olimar's matchups are weird... Against the top tiers, it's really sporadic. He has difficult matchups against Meta Knight and Marth, and some Olimars believe Falco to have a solid advantage over him, though the general consensus is that DEHF is a god and it's only slightly in Falco's favor. Ice Climbers is also considered to be a difficult matchup for Olimar as well. Olimar does solidly beat DDD, and has one of the best matchups against Snake, alongside Meta Knight. He goes even with Diddy Kong and Wario, however. As well as Pikacu, who most Olimars believe him to have an slight advantage over. Olimar getting destroyed by Peach is a complete exaggeration. It's barely in her advantage, and definitely the least of a problem out of his "bad" matchups. Luigi, on the other hand, does give Olimar a hard time, and was for awhile considered his worst matchup.
Olimar has the problem, however, of going even in almost every matchup imaginable. He doesn't really dominate as many characters as most top/high tier characters do. A lot of matchups that are (or were) considered to be strongly in Olimar's favor aren't that dramatic, when compared to characters like DDD or Falco that completely destroy almost all of the mid and low tier characters.
As for tournament placements, Olimar's a bit under represented, when it comes to top levels of play. Rich Brown, Pyronic Star (Logic), and Dabuz are considered to be the best three Olimars and place well relatively every tournament they attend. I'm not sure how to elaborate more on this subject.
Stages: Olimar's stage choices depend almost entirely on what pros and cons the opponent gets on the stage and how Olimar well can take advantage of the opponent's cons, rather than how Olimar does on it. He has a few stages that he can fall back on (such as Halberd), but compared to characters like Falco that have set good stages and set bad stages, Olimar does not. His "good" stages are only really good in half of his matchups, and his "bad" stages are only bad in half of his matchups. Rainbow Cruise is terrible for Olimar against five or six characters. But other than that, it's a great stage. Same with Brinstar, imo. Although some other Olimars will say differently, haha. He's very adaptable to stages. Olimar also has the perk of being able to benefit off of Pikmin Pluck Percentages with his counterpicks, or even when counterpicked! Frigate is usually a great stage to take Olimar to, but the fact that it increases the amount of Purples and Yellows he pulls weakens the blow he takes, in most matchups.
Placement: Olimar should definitely stay below Pikachu, and probably stay below DDD, although I could see him rising above him. Olimar and DDD have similar matchup consistencies. Both don't do that well against Meta Knight, but both have good matchups against Snake. Both go even with Wario and Diddy. Olimar loses to Marth while DDD goes even with him, while the opposite can be said against Falco, Olimar going about even while DDD gets countered. The main difference other than these is that DDD loses against Olimar, Ice Climbers, and Pikachu, while Olimar goes even against Pikachu, beats DDD, and has a slight disadvantage against Ice Climbers. So Olimar has better matchups against top and high tiers, however DDD has a better habit of dominating certain characters in the lower tiers, while Olimar doesn't as dramatically.
Olimar has a much larger learning curve than DDD, which I feel is a huge hinderance to his placements, as many players end up giving up when things are hard in the beginning. It also makes him close to impossible to be used as a secondary, which limits how much he can be represented. Too much memorization, work, and patience is required to not be terrible with Olimar, many things of which you can't apply to other characters, or can't have picked up after maining another character. Which is why you never see a top or high skill level player that secondaries Olimar. And those that do, end up stopping half way.
Almost all of the Falco players play the match up wrong. I think the match up ratio is 60-40 from playing Rich Brown a lot, I don't know Rich thinks the match up is atm.
One of Olimar's major weaknesses is being able to watch his pikmin lineup. If the player is smart they can determine the best time to go aggro or to camp Olimar.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
A few days ago Rich said he felt it's 55:45 Falco, but I'll let him speak for himself.
RichBrown
Smash Master
Yup, I think it's 55-45.
Larry you're wayyy better than me so you make it seem pretty bad lol. But I've gone back and watched our vids and noticed a lot of mistakes that are more player to player than character related.
I've figured out multiple ways Olimar can take advantage or sideB/Falco offstage, and I'm recognizing ways to avoid that stupid jab. I realized that many times I'm closing the gap between Oli and Falco for no reason and that I gotta be more patient and stay away.
Every other Falco I've played I've considered pretty easy, but I have yet to play Kismet, Shugo, Keitaro, Arty, etc. Hopefully they'll all be at MLG. When I played SK92 he didn't know the MU that well and I took advantage that which made the MU much easier.
Also, Larry, are you back home yet? I miss you
Edit: Loool I didn't realize that this was in the BBR lmao. Since no one else has posted I'll extend my post (though Hilt said a lot of the things I wanted to):
Oli is still a highly under rated character. He has a lot more options than people (including olimar mains and even myself) realize. He has an answer for most things and can hang with most of the cast. He only gets really screwed up by random mid/low tiers (Luigi, Peach, Squirtle, Mario).
The thing about Olimar is that he's very much all or nothing. For the most part in my matches, damage taken and received comes in bursts, and that usually comes from a single mistake from either opponent. So I'll deal 60% to someone because they fell into my zone, or I'll get grabbed and have a hard time reestablishing position because Oli happens to be that perfect juggling weight. So as you can see, it's hard maintain that consistency throughout an entire tournament.
I think Oli could sneak into A tier. He can hang with MK, Falco, Marth, and Wario, he beats snake and diddy, and he goes even with ICs (I'm willing to debate all these claims, I just don't wanna write an essay right now lol). With the B tier characters, he solidly beats DDD and beats pika as well imo.
Like Hilt said, Oli is severely under represented. The only high placing Olimars these days are me, Logic, and Dabuz. Fino places high but lives in a mediocre region. Dabuz also rarely gets out to tournaments, so unless either me or Logic have a good day, you don't hear much about the character.
Larry you're wayyy better than me so you make it seem pretty bad lol. But I've gone back and watched our vids and noticed a lot of mistakes that are more player to player than character related.
I've figured out multiple ways Olimar can take advantage or sideB/Falco offstage, and I'm recognizing ways to avoid that stupid jab. I realized that many times I'm closing the gap between Oli and Falco for no reason and that I gotta be more patient and stay away.
Every other Falco I've played I've considered pretty easy, but I have yet to play Kismet, Shugo, Keitaro, Arty, etc. Hopefully they'll all be at MLG. When I played SK92 he didn't know the MU that well and I took advantage that which made the MU much easier.
Also, Larry, are you back home yet? I miss you
Edit: Loool I didn't realize that this was in the BBR lmao. Since no one else has posted I'll extend my post (though Hilt said a lot of the things I wanted to):
Oli is still a highly under rated character. He has a lot more options than people (including olimar mains and even myself) realize. He has an answer for most things and can hang with most of the cast. He only gets really screwed up by random mid/low tiers (Luigi, Peach, Squirtle, Mario).
The thing about Olimar is that he's very much all or nothing. For the most part in my matches, damage taken and received comes in bursts, and that usually comes from a single mistake from either opponent. So I'll deal 60% to someone because they fell into my zone, or I'll get grabbed and have a hard time reestablishing position because Oli happens to be that perfect juggling weight. So as you can see, it's hard maintain that consistency throughout an entire tournament.
I think Oli could sneak into A tier. He can hang with MK, Falco, Marth, and Wario, he beats snake and diddy, and he goes even with ICs (I'm willing to debate all these claims, I just don't wanna write an essay right now lol). With the B tier characters, he solidly beats DDD and beats pika as well imo.
Like Hilt said, Oli is severely under represented. The only high placing Olimars these days are me, Logic, and Dabuz. Fino places high but lives in a mediocre region. Dabuz also rarely gets out to tournaments, so unless either me or Logic have a good day, you don't hear much about the character.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I totally agree with this, you know what to do by looking at his pikmins, knowing if he can outspace you with a yellow, pivot grab you with a blue or stop you with a sidebed purple in a precise moment makes the match-up way easier. it's also not the same trying a punishable move if his next pikmin is a white ( which I by far the worst pikmin imo) instead of any other colour.
His recovery is not better than snake, snake can keep coming back and hurting himself until making it back to the stage, if you take olimar's jump away it's over for him, there are also lots of ways to bait his downb.
About match-ups, I think his worst is MK, some of mks moves like dtilt, uair, tornado and dthrow totally destroy olimar, I'd say its 6-4 or 65-35.
Then his other bad match-ups are Marth, Diddy Kong, Falco and some mid tiers like peach and luigi. I think he also loses vs snake like 45-55 or so, camping Olimar is easy for snake, he can outcamp him and his dash attack is extremely good vs him, aggressive olimar has more of a chance vs him imo but still snake's grab is very good against him due to his horrible tech-rolls.
About character placement, I think he's ok where he is, not sure if he's better than D3 or pika, I'm just sure he shouldn't go down.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Olimar goes even with Diddy, there's little reason the matchup would be a disadvantage. I also don't understand how you think it's easy for Snake to outcamp Olimar, haha.
I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone else to post, lol.
I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone else to post, lol.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
The only thing I can say about this character is that his Up-b has a larger jump when he has less pikmin. If he is worried about somebody grabbing the ledge, he should throw his pikmin off so he gets the higher jump...thats about all I know about this character
Yeah, Olimar has a slight advantage on Pika 55:45
Yeah, Olimar has a slight advantage on Pika 55:45
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I feel diddy has an advantage because he has an easy time approaching Olimar, he can gimp him easily and his grabs setup for this really well. Also olimar has horrible techrolls so when he's hit by a nana Diddy doesn't have problems comboing him from there.
About the snake thing, I feel that Snake can approach without receiving much damage and trap Olimar in a side from the stage from where he will have trouble getting away of. Instead, if Olimar tries to be close to snake he won't be trapped that often and will have a bigger control on the stage.
I haven't played much with Olimar myself, but I know how to play against him with many characters and that's what I feel.
Btw, is mario that good vs Olimar to even have an advantage over him ? D:
@Esam: I'm not sure, but Iirc his upb only jumps higher if he has no pikmin at all ( by a considerable amount), it doesn't matter if he has 3 pikmins or 5.
About the snake thing, I feel that Snake can approach without receiving much damage and trap Olimar in a side from the stage from where he will have trouble getting away of. Instead, if Olimar tries to be close to snake he won't be trapped that often and will have a bigger control on the stage.
I haven't played much with Olimar myself, but I know how to play against him with many characters and that's what I feel.
Btw, is mario that good vs Olimar to even have an advantage over him ? D:
@Esam: I'm not sure, but Iirc his upb only jumps higher if he has no pikmin at all ( by a considerable amount), it doesn't matter if he has 3 pikmins or 5.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
If its 2 or less its better than 3-6 I believe.
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Mario doesn't have an advantage, but it's completely even. Mario makes Olimar have to recover completely different, and it's a pain. It's not in Mario's advantage, though.
Diddy has a bad time approaching a good Olimar. If the Oli stays grounded, it's easy to keep his approaches at bay with forward smash and grabs, and bananas are blocked by (grounded) pikmin toss and forward smash, leaving the banana in an area that's difficult for Diddy to retrieve it without running into Olimar's spacing tools. Granted, if the Diddy Kong does get momentum, he can easily give the Olimar a hard time, but the same can be said for most High/Top Tier matchups against Olimar. Even Dedede. Actually, especially Dedede, lol. Olimar with a banana is a pain for Diddy to have to deal with, as well.
I don't really understand your point with the Snake comment, or what it has to do with Snake outcamping Olimar, but okay.
As for Olimar's recovery, yeah the sweet spot is incredibly bigger if he has no pikmin at all. He doesn't jump higher himself, it's just the sweet spot. The sweet spot is actually bigger to where he can recover farther than if he had three pikmin or less, it just takes a bit more time for him to get to the ledge. And it's only if he has no Pikmin at all. Otherwise, the sweetspot he would normally get is replaced by his Pikmin, which don't have a sweet spot if they didn't originally tether to the ledge.
Diddy has a bad time approaching a good Olimar. If the Oli stays grounded, it's easy to keep his approaches at bay with forward smash and grabs, and bananas are blocked by (grounded) pikmin toss and forward smash, leaving the banana in an area that's difficult for Diddy to retrieve it without running into Olimar's spacing tools. Granted, if the Diddy Kong does get momentum, he can easily give the Olimar a hard time, but the same can be said for most High/Top Tier matchups against Olimar. Even Dedede. Actually, especially Dedede, lol. Olimar with a banana is a pain for Diddy to have to deal with, as well.
I don't really understand your point with the Snake comment, or what it has to do with Snake outcamping Olimar, but okay.
As for Olimar's recovery, yeah the sweet spot is incredibly bigger if he has no pikmin at all. He doesn't jump higher himself, it's just the sweet spot. The sweet spot is actually bigger to where he can recover farther than if he had three pikmin or less, it just takes a bit more time for him to get to the ledge. And it's only if he has no Pikmin at all. Otherwise, the sweetspot he would normally get is replaced by his Pikmin, which don't have a sweet spot if they didn't originally tether to the ledge.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
You match my opinions on the movement of these three exactly
I've said/thought this so often. And purples would only be bull**** if we could pull them on command, which would be awesome :D
I agree with pretty much everything you said here, especially the bit about Bthrow vs. Uthrow. I would also add that pikmin not only force opponents to approach, but sometimes leave them plain open; a lot of times I notice people stop to remove pikmin when I throw them, which spells G-R-A-B-T-I-M-E to me
You're also right about him going even with pretty much everyone. He has the tools to deal with almost anything but **** nearly no one (probably the only solid one is Ganon).
As for tournament placings...
Um, I don't even have to say it
You already know how I feel about where Oli should move ^_^ Right next to Wario, that's the place for him
You're probably right about that first part
And I never thought about the second, looks about time for a mixup strategy to emerge...At least.
Under-rated is an understatement, though I doubt he'll have that problem anymore.
Looks like that Jab is still gonna be a problem for a while longer than we thought.
And I think we're past not hearing about Olimar
The brevity of this discussion is astounding. Less than 20 posts, really!? Is everyone in the backroom just so oblivious about Olimar that they can't even hold a discussion about him? I'd love to see what this would have been if it had been done post-Brood
Brood has kind of changed everything. An Olimar metagame revolution is coming...
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Yeah, look at the dates for the posts too. Notice how big the gaps were and where they were placed. Nobody knows anything about Olimar.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lol @ this discussion
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I guess this is a good thing? Especially now that Brood has shown us how broken buffering is ^_^
It's sad, isn't it? I can't remember if you're BR or not, but if you aren't then go here and look at how long the other discussions are :/ After reading all of the others, I was so excited for the release of Olimar's, and then I get...this 16 post discussion
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
As sad as it is, I wasn't surprised in the least. I actually got a good laugh, throughout the week, noticing that nobody was saying anything at all.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I really DO wonder what this would have looked like if it had taken place after Brood's performance at Apex. Probably a lot of meatriding without much knowledge, though I suppose we didn't have much knowledge about Olimar's true potential ourselves until Brood came along and showed us the light
I stopped reading when you said camping olimar is easy for snake. The matchup is in olimars favor
Thank you, I now totally agree with you.No, it's not.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Latias' first point is valid. It most definitely is not easy for Snake to camp Olimar (near impossible if the Olimar is zoning properly).
His second is not. The mu is even, and that's what the top Olis say. You can go see for yourself; we do have an mu thread dedicated to him.
His second is not. The mu is even, and that's what the top Olis say. You can go see for yourself; we do have an mu thread dedicated to him.
how many snakes have posted? the snake mu thread says its 55-45 our favor
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
My mistake; I figured you meant > or = to 60:40. We do consider it a slight advantage, but not much. Numbers are misleading. Oh, and no Snakes posted. We told them, but they didn't come *shrug*
And didn't you leave us because of Hilt?
I see threads everywhere
And didn't you leave us because of Hilt?
I see threads everywhere
no i left because of dajayman, but i post occasion(ally), mainly because i was (brood)ing about something..My mistake; I figured you meant > or = to 60:40. We do consider it a slight advantage, but not much. Numbers are misleading. Oh, and no Snakes posted. We told them, but they didn't come *shrug*
And didn't you leave us because of Hilt?
I see threads everywhere
enough puns, but it is 55-45 our advantage
I think only one or 2 other characters have an advantage on him
Noa.
Smash Master
I agreed with most points in this thread but Marcbri was way off lol.
Dotcom
Smash Lord
The falco matchup is close ot being the most difficult matchup we have, when played correctly. If the Falco knows the matchup better than you do, your'e screwed. If you both know the matchup your still probably screwed. All because of Jab.
Tin Man
Smash Hero
Yeah Hilt pretty much said everything with Rich Brown to boot. However I agree with Metal Musician Man's post. I believe Olimar should go up, especially after apex. He deserves to be top tier, better than DDD for sure. He doesn't get utterly ***** while DDD does and even though DDD can completely shut down characters, Olimar has plenty of advantages which I find are more valuable then having considerable disadvantages.
A2ZOMG
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I think Olimar wins 55/45 against Mario, but MOST Olimar mains play the matchup COMPLETELY wrong, which gets them wrecked. Mario of course has the tools to win at high level play, but I think most Olimars don't know this matchup at all.
Mario wrecks Olimar hard if Olimar tries too hard to outcamp him. Mario WANTS this since the more he can space his fireballs and aerials with impunity, the more he gets in for free to wreck Olimar up close with legit block strings and juggles (including Jab cancel combos which are very easy on Olimar). In addition to fireballs, the Cape is actually REALLY REALLY GOOD in this matchup, able to turn Olimar's camping against him while removing latched pikmin from Mario and adds to Mario's spacing game. If Mario keeps Olimar on the defensive in this matchup, he wins. I think Fino can vouch that I Down-angle F-smashed him into oblivion when he tried to plank me on Japes. =)
What gives Olimar the advantage is if he realizes that he doesn't have to camp Mario and actually does just fine playing a poke and spacing game and pressuring Mario to be on the defensive which opens him up to get grabbed for a good chunk of damage. Olimar hits harder than Mario, has more range on certain moves, and Mario has a slightly harder time severely punishing Olimar's kill moves. It's odd to be saying this, but I believe Olimar should in fact be approaching Mario. Mario's strengths are in his camp and spacing game, and Olimar wants to shut that down and force Mario to take more risks which are not in his favor.
I've been playing a lot of Olimars recently, including a pretty nasty one from Las Vegas called Xero the ITG Penguin, who beat my Mario through more aggressive tactics. In my experience, the campy Olimars are much easier for Mario to deal with.
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
I'm so glad that someone has finally told me how to play this matchup. I wasn't exactly asking, but I definitely needed to know. No wonder I always get fireball *****
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Yeah, I meant to say that it was even instead of completely even. I've played a LOT against Xero (The Mario, not the Olimar), who knows the matchup incredibly well, and I feel the matchup is roughly 55:45 or 50:50.
A2ZOMG
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Yeah Vocal, I remember beating you pretty badly on the AiB ladder and then giving you tips in the chat LOL.
Next time you play me I expect improvements. =)
Next time you play me I expect improvements. =)
-Vocal-
Smash Hero
Oh, so you know just how much I suck at the MU Don't worry, I'm bringing my A game next time
Don't worry, I'm bringing my A game next time
Tin Man
Smash Hero
are Hilt & Rich Brown the only Olimar mains in the Backroom?
DtJ Hilt
Little Lizard
Yeah, we're the only two.
Marcbri
Smash Lord
I'm sorry, I didn't want to write snake outcamps olimar, I wanted to say Olimar doesn't camp well vs Snake, because he approaches easily, my mistake.
Snake does win the match-up though, he has all the tools to beat his camping game and racking fast damage on him ( Snake's throws are soo good vs him)
Snake does win the match-up though, he has all the tools to beat his camping game and racking fast damage on him ( Snake's throws are soo good vs him)