BBR Weekly Character Discussion #16: Mr. Game & Watch

Mr. Game & Watch would be top tier if he had a mustache.

One dimensional character (see what I did there?!....even though he's two dimensional but whatever). He's strong and has the tools to shut down a lot of characters, but people have started to figure him out and he's plummeted in results. Personally, I think he needs to drop on the tier list more. Somewhere just below R.O.B. He doesn't have any type of good tournament results to back up his current placement, though a lot of that has to do with the flood of his bad matchups being very popular characters. But what is a tier list but just a measurement of the viability of characters in the tournament scene?

G&W is a solid character with good kill power, great survivability via bucket breaking and his recovery, good damage wracking, and some very interesting and applicable gimmicks. He's one of the best teams characters, and still among the more formidable singles characters, despite recent metagame developments exposing him as a bit less than stellar.

I would put G&W above ROB for sure, and I don't really think he should drop. I suppose he could, but his crazy kill power and survivability make me think he should still be rated above "C" characters like Pit, Kirby, ROB, etc.

I think he's pretty solid about where he is, maybe the "good" C characters who will likely move up, like ZSS and Toon Link, just need to move up with or above him in B tier.

I think G&W should drop because Zero Suit Samus and Toon Link will rise and he's stuck on his metagame compared to them, but he is a solid character overall. By the way, ROB isn't better than him in my opinion.

I believe he should stay above ROB.
Te issue is that some of his best tools like Bair are punished on hit.
he's become very very simple and several characters including those below him can take advantage of his weaknesses.
he's good but i do think that he may need to drop considering how poor his results are now.

G&W needs to stay above ROB and TL. ZSS idk, if your stage list isn't pure EC then he probably should stay higher. His main problem is that his top tier matchups are either even or not in his favor. MK, Falco, Snake, Dedede, Wario, IC's, Marth, Olimar aren't very friendly for G&W. However past that point, he tends to flat out **** everyone else (besides the few that go evenish with him after that point). He's probably one of the top 3 most straight forward counter characters against someone. If G&W beats your character, it's glaringly obvious and simple what he has to do.

I think G&W players are fighting the characters more than they should be fighting the person behind them. His punishment game is good enough that being a better player than the opponent will take you farther than most normal characters.

Without an upB like he has gaw would be garbage.

Mr. Game & Watch is just way too linear, really. A lack of multiple options in various common scenarios kinda makes Mr. Game & Watch suffocate in the current meta game. Mr. Game & Watch lacks decent results, and I just don't see anything happening with him beyond the simple fact that Mr. Game & Watch absolutely destroys doubles if Meta Knight isn't present.

He does, however, like Hylian said, make a great secondary for certain stages.

I think he should move down, but definitely still remain higher up than the likes of R.O.B. and Toon Link.

Yea, G&W usually is picked up by quite a lot of people from low to mid skill because he's very easy to learn and have success with against people of similar level. He's awesome for that. But as soon as the players get better, they lay off G&W because his game is just so limited and one-dimensional (and no, not intending that as pun).
He hasn't advanced like at all since around the second tier list. The only things that are sometimes found are stage shenanigans like rudder camping, UAir stuff and other not really important or match-deciding things.

Yeah, he's probably the single easiest character in the game to play, if I had to put that label on someone.

uhg, G&W users should use up+b a lot more (myself included). He just can't fall into combos and he doesn't have many tools to break combos, so it's 10x times safer to just escape and nothing better than up+b. I'd say that this is the weakest point in G&W: due to his relative low startup on his useful moves, he is terrible at breaking combos by tryng to fight them back, and that combined with his weight = death.

Also, despite G&W is pretty easy to learn, is one of the characters that heavily relies on approach setups+spacing. If you don't play perfect with him, you lose; G&W just doesn't have space for mistakes. And his counters are the most overused characters+several matchups have been starting to get worse, like Falco, Peach, IC... because now everyone knows what to do against bair.

idk I still think he has room for improvement by trying to find better uses for things like uair, up+b and chef, but the popularity of G&W only make things worse (harder to find new tricks). Despite I love this guy to death, he won't be better than just a good secondary, and due to results placement, it's impossible to raise in future tier lists.

People are really WAY too set on the idea that GnW is "too linear" and that he "doesn't evolve." He's a pretty simple character in that he has a couple main ways of doing things that are, though predictable, really solid, however, that's the thing. What character barring Metaknight couldn't you say the same thing of?

GnW relies a lot on your opponent misunderstanding him, but even if someone has a lot of GnW experience, he still has a multitude of ways he can go about things, and he can punish the littlest mistake REALLY, REALLY hard. The biggest problem he has is that people are making less and less mistakes in today's metagame.

PGN just won a tournament with mostly GnW, 3-0'ing Shadow and beating Dabuz, but to be honest and with bias aside, I feel like that's partially due to a lack of experience in the matchup for both of them. That, however, is ALSO the thing; Who does these days with how few GnW there are left? I feel like he's got a nice little niche, but that he couldn't really get that much better. At the popularity level he's at, he can succeed in a lot of ways because of how mysterious he is to most people, but won't ever rise with the current level of attendance we see from them in our community, but if he was to get a lot more popular he'd be figured out more commonly and as such wouldn't gain from more representation.

For the record, I feel like his only impossible matchup is Metaknight, but only one that knows GnW very well and knows exactly what to do to beat all of his tricks. GnW vs a bad Metaknight is one of the most fun matchups in the game for me.

EDIT: I feel like he should definitely stay above ROB and TL as well. Those three are a rare breed that only ever have one or two good players at any time during the metagame, but GnW has the slight edge on them as far as standalone and counterpick viability.

Here's M2K's thoughts on this character. Every time I'm sad or lonely, I can always go back to this thread.

Anyway, I think he's still better than Rob and Toon Link, but he's in a class with those characters. He's been getting worse and worse as the game goes along, which is not a good sign for him. His biggest weakness is all that lag he has after his aerials. Lots of punishment room as people got better at buffering and knowing how many frames of lag he has on each aerial. It's hard to mix it up when all your best attacks lag so much. A smart player can do amazing with him by circumventing this and using great mind games, but if you run into players not falling for thsoe mind games, GW can have a lot lot of trouble. He's still a solid character though.

G&W is bad and people are dumb.

I know I troll and exaggerate about how bad G&W is, and he's definitely better than Peach at this point. The problem is that G&W has few options and is a poor at punishments. Poor run speed, bad grab, slow moveset, extremely unsafe aerials which leave him committed...

G&W thrives off of reads. The way to beat G&W is to memorize his options and pick constant safe choices. There's a lot of things he simply doesn't punish well, and there is a lot of ways to space with each character that simply gives him very few options to respond. Avoiding setting up guessing game situations is the way to beat G&W, and it becomes very difficult for him to kill you.

With MK, this essentially consists of walking away and spacing ftilt. G&W has no safe approaches on MK, and can't punish spaced ftilts on his shield. G&W is also horribly disadvantaged once he leaves the ground against MK, because all MK has to do is walk under him and punish his attempt to return to the ground (he has very few options to do so, and MK can punish almost all of them with a shuttle loop).

Even if G&W has the lead, MK can slowly and cautiously approach with spaced tilts. Again...G&W can't punish it OOS, and if he leaves the ground, MK just has to walk under him and wait.

The mistake most MK's make is challenging G&W in the air. Which is drop dead stupid- G&W's aerials all beat MK's, but MK can punish everything grounded.


People don't punish bair enough (I'm not even talking about on shield. Space away, attack when the head dips with a dash attack or something); people don't SDI out of bair and the first hit of nair enough (c'mon, the startup is long enough...); people don't abuse his poor OOS options (Peach can a lot of moves on his shield in different ways with impunity).



Again, I make G&W sound a lot worse than he is. His redeeming factor is that all he needs is a few good READS to win the match, and he can often force read scenarios on characters whose tech roll isn't fast enough or off of juggling slowfallers with uair.

I think he's more in line with ROB and Toon Link as Edrees mentioned- maybe even just below them.


I'm hoping to crush Vinnie (PGN) and a few other G&W's at Apex (I normally make money by just MMing G&W's in every region I go to; haven't lost one since UTD Zac 9'd me at Genesis T_T though Valdens and I haven't MM'd in ages ), but I haven't actually gotten to play the matchup in 3-4 months and am afraid I might be rusty

G&W is great when you're great at reading people. Past that, not so much.

Also I'll never beat Needle of Juntah.

I like this character a lot, needless to say. I mostly agree with Valdens, but I've never found Meta Knight that scary so much as it's really stage dependent. When fighting Meta Knight, I always saw as G&W that I won if I could take the battle to the air, and I was at the advantage if I could keep us at different vertical levels in general. It generally just means taking him to the least "neutral" stage you can get away with every step of the way and standing in strategic places or exploiting the terrain in other ways. I play game 1 on Pokemon Stadium 1 or Lylat Cruise usually and counterpick Norfair/Green Greens/Rainbow Cruise and play both of those games heavily to the terrain (and if I lose one of them, brace myself for some platform camping fun on Smashville or rejoice when the MK picks something else).

As per coming in on Meta Knight from above, I generally feel pretty good about it as G&W if I still have my up special. I can abort at any time, or I could use the key to get down onto him super fast at any time. Unless I'm really low over him so his i-frames will protect him, key will win against Shuttle Loop more often than not. If he predicts my key and blocks, I get punished, but given how powerful G&W is compared to Meta Knight, I'll take mutual guessing games all day. That's all the situation is all around, and I'm more than happy to create it in general.

Honestly, I feel that G&W would wreck Meta Knight if Shuttle Loop weren't so good at stuffing horizontal aerial approaches, but that is what it is. Meta Knight has an infinitely superior grounded game and is hard to jump in on but loses in the air. You need some cleverness or shenanigan or trick of stage geography to get started on him, but once you do, it's in your favor until he can recreate a neutral position. It's kinda like fighting Olimar in this way; it's painful but possible.

Snake, however, worries me more and more. The risk-reward on Snake is just kinda silly; he does twice as much damage as G&W off a typical hit and has an easier time landing hits than G&W in this matchup and lives forever while having some really dangerous kill moves that take out G&W early. I see how G&W is supposed to win here, but it just seems really uphill. Whenever I play good Snakes, it feels like they aren't even trying while I'm ramming my flat head into a wall.

Sadly, G&W is really underplayed so it's hard to see where he's going. I'm optimistic in his true quality, but he isn't really played enough for me to be able to prove much about him. I hope time will vindicate him as the good character he really is.

I feel like Game and Watch is better than people give him credit for. I don't think he's a top tier character, but he's certainly being given less credit than he deserves.

The problem I see from most Game and Watch players (Zac included) is they make their approaches very predictable. This is an inherent flaw in the character; he doesn't have very many tools to approach with and as a result it's easy for his approach to become stagnant and readable.

Another issue is mixing up your "bag of tricks" when playing as Game and Watch. Most players have a few sets of options they like to use (for instance, down throw setups and up air traps) and there is little variance between the options they select.

I got the opportunity to play against Zac when he was in "beast mode" about a week or two ago. The last few times I've played against him I've felt like I was in complete control, but this time around he beat me like I didn't know anything about what I was doing. What I noticed after playing him and then after watching him play others around him is that he was mixing things up a lot more often. Very few of his patterns and nuances were showing up as frequently as normal.

What this shows me is that variance is a strong key to this character's success, but a very small number of people who play the character capitolize on this properly. His movest, when used properly, allows for a lot more variance than most people can see. I see two pages of jokes about Game and Watch being one-dimensional, but I have to disagree. I really feel like the character has more depth than people are giving him credit for.

I don't think that he belongs below ROB on the tier list like I've seen a few people suggest. In fact, I think he's in about the right spot where he stands now.

I agree with Infinity's assessment.

My statement that he's one-dimensional wasn't a joke though.

That being said, it's interesting to see your statement, and how it might be the players who keep G&W back from being not as flowchart-like as he is at the moment.

GaW is really well placed on the tier list right now. Maybe not 100% perfect, but it's pretty close. What I don't like to see are constant claims that he should drop some more due to match-ups. His match-ups aren't THAT bad. Sure he gets destroyed by MK, but so does marth, DDD and olimar, and they're all highly placed. His only other **** bad match-up is marth, and while it's tough, still not unwinnable. Under the current SBR ruleset (no lgl), GaW would still go even with diddy, and now a days it's commonly agreed that GaW goes evenish with snake. Falco is still pretty close to even, although I'd argue for it to still be in GaW's favor, IC's is tricky to call, because on conservative lists it's pretty bad, but with 7-9 starters the match-up evens out a bit, but I'd still give IC's the slight edge. Olimar and wario are even, and GaW beats out pika easily, and slightly beats DDD and lucario. TL is a debatable bad m/u, and I don't know too much about it, but it's probably his 3rd worst match-up. Other than that, he ***** everyone else pretty badly for the most part. I think he's kind of like DDD in the way that he makes some characters unusable in tournament (jiggs lol).

I know lots of people will disagree with my assessment on his match-ups, but from my point of view, I think his "non viable in tournament" claim is getting blown out of proportion. It's tough with a lot of MK's, but it's doable, and MK is only super **** if the MK is super good at the match-up, so meh.

I_Am_Infinity said:

The problem I see from most Game and Watch players (Zac included) is they make their approaches very predictable. This is an inherent flaw in the character; he doesn't have very many tools to approach with and as a result it's easy for his approach to become stagnant and readable.

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It's true. There are only so many approaches / useful things I can do against MK. Try playing a non-MK character against me and you might get different results

(not being harsh, just saying it's really hard to not be predictable against MK when that character shuts down G&W)

Praxis said:

I'm hoping to crush Vinnie (PGN) and a few other G&W's at Apex

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We ended up MMing in that matchup twice for $5 each. He actually did beat me for $5 the first time 2-1 last hit, but then the next day, I beat him 3-0 on the livestream for $5. Good games though, I figured out how to beat Peach pretty easily (uthrow >>> dthrow, uair and nair juggles, let the kill come to you).

Game and Watch isn't mid tier, he's under-respresented and underrated. He's a solid B tier character.

Good reads and spaced smashes is key for GW

spaced smashes and good chasing is key with GW

Vinnie said:

We ended up MMing in that matchup twice for $5 each. He actually did beat me for $5 the first time 2-1 last hit, but then the next day, I beat him 3-0 on the livestream for $5. Good games though, I figured out how to beat Peach pretty easily (uthrow >>> dthrow, uair and nair juggles, let the kill come to you).

Game and Watch isn't mid tier, he's under-respresented and underrated. He's a solid B tier character.

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I played bad on the livestream. Swordgard Syndrome.

Last hit translates to: I two stocked you and then beat you on your own counterpick.


<3

Praxis said:

I played bad on the livestream. Swordgard Syndrome.

Last hit translates to: I two stocked you and then beat you on your own counterpick.


<3

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Was it not game 3, 109%? Good games regardless, though. And no johns, woman!!! :D

Vinnie said:

Was it not game 3, 109%? Good games regardless, though. And no johns, woman!!! :D

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He's been johning for ages about my judgment comeback in our MM at Genesis. Deal with it :X

HEY. JUDGEMENT JOHNS ISH VALID. And Vinnie and I are 1-1 xP

And G&W should win on Brinstar.

Praxis said:

HEY. JUDGEMENT JOHNS ISH VALID. And Vinnie and I are 1-1 xP

And G&W should win on Brinstar.

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I lose to everyone on Brinstar nowadays... **** sucks. I hate that stage now.

I agree with Vinnie that GW is very highly under represented. The only ones you hear about most days are Zac, Vinnie, and sometimes Needles. Other than those three, GW gets as much rep as Jiggs. People who started with him usually ended up changing to MK or Snake, it's only a few who stick with him.

Most GW don't vary their styles in general and it can be picked up very quickly. Variety and reading are the spices of making a good GW. Sure apporching with bair is the staple of the Watch, but all it takes is a shield and usually ends with shuttle loop to **** him over.

I would say his spot on the last tier list should stay the same in the new one. If the people who mained him would play him and not switch at the last minute because they want to take the easy way out, he would be better off in tournaments than he is now.

ZSS I don't think is better than G&W, but has a higher learning curve to play against that requires powershielding and matchup knowledge of how to punish more individual moves (a LOT of her moves not named Down-smash and spaced SideB are quite unsafe). What she has going for her is extremely specialized and lacks real flexibility.

ZSS is definitely not better than GaW lol. GaW doesn't get beaten by simple things like shield camping, and ZSS has pretty bad match-ups as well (falco lol). ZSS, imo, is far more telegraphed than GaW, it just seems less obvious because of the apparent tools she has, but unfortunately for her, the tools that she has for the most part are really gimmicky and shouldn't work most of the time.

didnt read everything but i did see the usual ignorant comments about G&W so l-o-l ;l

i think he´s pretty much perfect where he is now, for now. We need more people picking him up to have a more accurate placing=(. TOO MANY QUITTERS.=(.

Uh, it's just practically nobody knows the matchup against ZSS since she's not a popular character and the few people who do happen to do anything with her just happen to be amazing. But our best G&W players place better than the best ZSSes as I recall.

And lol no she's not good against Metaknight at all. Watch M2K vs Snakeeee or w/e his name was and yeah...it's pretty awful. She probably has it worse against Snake than G&W as well due to her lack of a good grab.

Yeah she has a few other okay moves. Her tilts are average pokes at best. Her U-tilt is a good punisher but massively unsafe on block. Same with Dash attack. Her Smashes besides D-smash are pretty eh, she can't really do an aerial on you very easily if you crouch. And her grab is pretty awful and has average reward.

But she's a much harder matchup to actually learn by far. I don't claim to understand how to beat ZSS consistently myself.

She'll rise in the tier list maybe, but not above GaW. Falco ***** her harder than any match-up GaW has, and again, shield kind of shuts down ZSS in any match-up >_>.

GaW can cope fine in any position, whether in the air, on a platform, offstage, above or below opponent, probably has the most trouble when he is stuck on the ground in some MU's(not the best ground game ey). He has the tools to get back his game and even though stage control can help GaW, he doesn't need it, and despite the lack of playstyle variation in many Game and Watch players, he can really play any playstyle he wants and there are ways to make it work, except certain match ups of course.

ZSS cant deal if she's above the opponent or offstage, in all MUs she has some trouble getting to a safe place once in these positions. ZSS cant even camp as good as GaW because her moves don't do much for her when she's retreating, and her ranged attacks are easy to get around for chars with good air mobility. I believe ZSS is actually more limited than GaW. She may have more mix ups at times and more moves to choose from then GaW, but I don't think that she has as many playstyle options, and therefore I don't think she can adapt to as many playstyle changes due to her opponent as GaW can.

I don't think you are silly if you think ZSS is better than GaW, I can see a few reasons why you would think that, but honestly GaW is higher than ZSS with the current metagame, despite ours doing jack all for quite a while.

Yes, I'd say that's pretty accurate. GaW also has a much better counter-pick game than ZSS, which I think is worth taking note of.