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Popular Competitive Philosophies: "It's okay to disagree!"

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Vyse

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Popular Competitive Philosophies
A callout to people who problematise the game they love.

When I say ‘Popular Competitive Philosophies’, I refer to discussions relating to common issues in a tournament setting. To be brief, these are issues relating to rulesets employed in tournaments and the way in which they dictate the strategies commonly employed by players in order to win.

Before I talk about a number of different, popular view points, I wish to address a philosophical issue in general that I feel relates to anybody who has ever posted an opinion on a rule regarding Brawl.

I studied Advanced Literature in my final year of high school, and the most important thing I took away from that class was that everybody’s opinion is a valid opinion. What they teach in a standard English class is rubbish. Teacher’s will present you with a magazine ad and ask you to deconstruct it to find out the author’s intent and to that I say “What does it matter what the author intends when we first haven’t established the audience?”.

By audience I don’t mean ‘Stereotypical Female between 14 and 19’. I mean ‘Anglo-saxon, white, middle class female between 14 and 19 that is heterosexual’ or ‘Middle-eastern, tanned, male between 20 and 25 that plays cricket’. The point being that the authorial intent behind the American advertisement designer’s choices lose meaning when presented to a middle eastern man who may interpret the ad in a different way (to the anglo-saxon girl) due to the cultural and ethnical values instilled in him by his development as a person.

Does that make his interpretation wrong? No.

Roland Barthes posited that the death of the author is necessary for the rise of the reader. What matters is not the intent of the author drawn by popular readings of a text, but, the limitless potential readings that can be drawn from readers of different age, sex and cultural/ethnical upbringing.

So take this scenario:

Person A says: I think Port Town Aero Dive is a viable Counter Pick because a potential 40% death caused by the Cars does not create a ban-worthy imbalance in the stage hazard’s risk : reward ratio.

Person B says: I think Port Town Aero Dive is not viable Counter Pick because a potential 40% death caused by the Cars creates a ban-worthy imbalance in the stage hazard’s risk : reward ratio.

Who is correct?

The short answer is both of them.

The long answer is that they are both correct so long as the opinion each person is asserting is backed up by a Competitive Philosophy that supports it.

“Okay, so what are these popular competitive philosophies?”

Overswarm, and KishPrime before him posited two very popular approaches to competitive smash – Originalist and Constructivist: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262937&highlight=originalist+vs+constructivist

I highly recommend reading the whole thread opener, but to quote the main points of the two philosophies (and do no justice to OverSwarm):

The originalist is the philosophy I agree with personally. You'll obviously see some bias in the article because of it, but I'll do my best to be straightforward.

The Originalist wants to keep the game as intact as possible. They open the game, put in the disc, and say "Is this competitive?" and decide after if they need to change anything.

The originalist often goes against the grain of common thought, and opposes knee-jerk reactions vehemently. If there are ten counterpick stages that several characters have good win rates on, the originalist accepts this as the standard of the game rather than attempting to cut them out to make a more "50-50" matchup in all cases.

The originalist is strongly opposed to surgical changes as well; the originalist philosophy doesn't really accept surgical changes except in very very VERY odd circumstances. This means if Dedede can infinite 5 characters, the originalist accepts D3 as a hard counter to those characters and tells those 5 character mains that they need to deal with it.

The originalist also has an open mind when it comes to stages. Instead of banning every stage that might be a problem, they want to wait for actual problems in the tournament scene. If someone says "Hey... Onett is broken! You can just camp the edge and win that way!", the originalist challenges him to abuse this to its fullest. If it turns out to be broken it'll be obvious in the tournament scene quickly and we'll have enough data to justify a ban. If someone asks why a stage is banned, we can tell them. Whoever the person who discovered why it was broken wins some extra money, so there's built-in incentive for testing this stuff at a high level. It won't be someone winning a few friendlies; it'll be someone winning multiple tournament matches against people trying to beat it.
The constructivist comes at the game with a scalpel. They know the game can be better and intend to remove the fluff that creates unsatisfactory results.

The constructivist is a huge fan of surgical changes. If they see Dedede infinite DK, they wonder why anyone would ever allow that technique. It obviously eliminates DK from the game, so why not just ban it and allow DK to play in tournaments without this threat?

The constructivist doesn't necessarily do whatever knee-jerk reactions tell them to do, but they take notice of gut feelings, community outrage, and things that go against the grain of what they feel is competitive. While pictochat's hazards may have no outcome change to a series of sets, they may be unacceptable to a constructivist because they do not fit the standard of play on other stages. While the klap trap on Japes comes on a strict timer, the constructivist may not believe that timing the klap trap is a skill we should ever be tested on.

The constructivist has a very close-minded approach to stages. Instead of taking the originalist approach of "Does this stage take away anything from the tournament scene", the constructivist asks "What does this stage add to the tournament scene". There may be no problems with a stage like PS2 in tournament; it could have consistent results, a clear and obvious pattern, and no balance complaints. This doesn't stop a constructivist from saying "Why should we be playing in zero gravity, on ice, and on conveyor belts?" and banning the stage because it doesn't add substance to their idea of balance.
These two ideologies represent the most common approaches regarding competitive ruleset design and validate most, if not, every single argument I’ve ever seen for and against every stage and questionable tactic in the game.

However, I’d also like to draw the reader’s attention towards one particular quote.

-There's no universal "this is competitive" mindset

This is the worst problem with constructivist philosophy. Two people can have the same mindset, but one can think that something is completely unnecessary in the tournament scene while others don't have a problem with it. This creates a clash of interests. Originalists don't have this, and instead clash over the interpretation of data. Over the course of time, originalists will generally get enough data to sway one side over the other. Constructivists do not. If one feels that infinites are anti-competitive because you can't do anything once you're in their grasp, but another feels they are only anti-competitive if they are near impossible to avoid, you have a clashing of values that can never be resolved.
Specifically, the fact that no one competitive mindset can truly ever be called the correct one. This essay of sorts seeks to not only present a number of popular competitive philosophies relating to Brawl, but to disempower the idea that your reasoning is any more sound than that of others (unless you both subscribe to the same philosophy), and empower the idea that everybody’s opinion matters.

Past these two all-encompassing philosophies are a number of other ones that borrow elements from one or the other, and set them in a different light, though an important thing to note is that they do not necessarily justify ruleset construction mentality, but rather, reflect their outlook on competitive play as a whole. I will touch briefly on two of them since by now you should get the idea of this article.

There are those that subscribe to David Sirlin’s ‘Play to Win’ philosophy that is generally associated with the idea that players who are seeking to win a game should do so, discounting any moral or ethical dilemmas as long as any strategy or tactic they employ is legal within the rules of a competition. I will posit nothing as fact when it comes to this mentality since these players may be originalist in regards to infinites, but constructivist in regards to stage lists.

One of this vein of thinking’s most important concepts to understand is that ‘Fun is subjective’. This means that regardless of whether you think camping is not fun to watch, it should not be factored into any kind of decision based on a ruleset.

The last philosophical approach I wish to address should actually be split into two veins of thought which I shall name ‘Definitive and Providential’. Which I personally believe has represented an important juncture in ruleset design.

The Definitive reader will strive for a smash game that features as few unpredictable outcomes and elements as possible whilst the Providential reader will oppose the removal of these elements without good reason or evidence.

Essentially, the crux of the Definitive argument is that the existence of random elements in the game makes the game less competitive in term’s of a player’s direct influence in the progress of a match.

However, the Providential reader shall discredit this by acknowledging that the existence of random elements that affect characters on a universal scale helps provide balance rather than take it away.

Item play is a key example of this; whilst the Definitivist will assert that items cause unnecessary, unwanted random elements to influence a match unfairly, Providentialists will assert that the existence of a random, universal set of attacks is actually beneficial to the balance of the cast. Arguments for many stages such as pictochat are also similar.

“So now that we know everybody is right and nobody is wrong, how can we possibly create a fair, competitive landscape for Brawl?”

It’s simple, Democracy. In that regard, the BBR has been the right step to make all along. Even if you have an informed opinion, to vote you should also be eligible to do so within your country.

But we shouldn’t be voting on ‘Ban X stage’ yet.
We should be voting on ‘Adopt X philosophy’.


And if you disagree with any of this, remember, it's okay
The point is that you're allowed to
:)
 

DMG

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What?

Oh nvm. Tired late night lol.

Good read
 

Hobobloke

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I remember reading some of this back when OS made the Originalist and Constructivist thread, still a good read.

Without a doubt I'd say I'm an Originalist, Brawl's a bad game competitively (in my opinion) but I still love it. I think we need to accept it as the flawed game it is without going to town on the rules to try and cut and mould it into what some consider competitive.
 
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Just FYI, if you are originalist, you are providential (the opposite is not necessarily true, though constructivists tend to nod towards Definivism). There is no way around this; randomness is obviously a very large part of smash, and no originalist would ever demand its removal.

Also, the fact that originalism has lead the competitive fighting scene for so long is probably a good sign that it's not totally wrong (see also: Sirlin, SonicHurricane, anyone who supports the former).
 

DMG

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You don't hear people arguing for the removal of randomness in Poker. However I bet if you could remove the randomness in Poker and make the game entirely skill based, it would be done.

There aren't many games that have random aspects you can completely remove and have the game still function. Brawl happens to be one of them. Random/luck of the draw/probability aren't the core of Smash, otherwise why can you remove it all and have a playable game? You COULD have every game on FD or BF, no items, etc and random is completely removed with a playable game. Most people don't advocate for that.

The truth is, most people lie in the middle of "ACCEPT THE RANDOM THE FATE IS SEALED!" and "IF IT CAN BE REMOVED, IT SHALL. SCRUB THE DECK OF MATH!". Completely accepting the Random is not the ideal path to go down, just as removing it all completely is not. The very fact that you CAN remove all random aspects however suggests that you cannot say "Accepting the Random is the only logical thing to do because it happens to be the only thing you can do".
 

MetalMusicMan

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Originalism is definitely a better stance. That's not to say it's ALWAYS RIGHT, but it has a much higher likelihood of being correct and, more importantly, an infinitely smaller possibility of "messing something up". Whereas if you are a constructivist and impliment arbitrary rules all of the time, you have a very high probability of "messing something up".

Good read, I hope people stop flaming and start actually thinking / posting things that make sense.
 

Juushichi

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Great read.

The only question I have pertaining to this and a lot of these good threads is this: Why are they all not in places that are easily seen?
 

san.

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Only thing I'm iffy about is the way the two are described, since originalist sounds better in multiple ways.
 

Vyse

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Only thing I'm iffy about is the way the two are described, since originalist sounds better in multiple ways.
The author of the thread I quoted from, Overswarm, is an Originalist and admitted that what he wrote would be biased.

It's also why he is a strong proponent of Pro-ban in the MK debate.
 

Blacknight99923

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I'm somewhere in between, I don't think just knee jerking is a good idea but I wouldn't hesitate to remove things from the game if after it was sufficiently shown that I would believe the game is better without
 
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This thread is amazing, kudos to Vyse for the good read. I'm with Vocal, I wish this thread attracted more attention.

By the way, I liked MMM's post too.
 

z00ted

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Great read. This brought up alot of good points and examples.

The sad part is most of the people who are complaining are not going to read this or won't soak in the information given to them.

I'm an Originalist.
 

Vyse

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Thanks for the kind words.
If you see somebody post that should read this, you should link them to it :)
 
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After getting very ambitous and not wanting to read BPCs infinite about of quotes, I have read all of this. I question if this was the least amount of work lol

It is interesting to take a look at how one thinks and dismantle how arguements come about. I have walked away from this thread slightly enlightened on how I would like to form my future opinions. Well worth the time spent reading this enoumoursly, long essay.

Are you majoring in english by the way vyse?
 

Vyse

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Currently I am studying a Bachelor of IT, since I did a year of Network Administration as a traineeship after I left school. One day maybe I'd like to further my studies into something like creative writing or linguistics. I've always wanted to write a novel.

I usually enter Smashboards' 'Write With Your Power' story writing competitions in the 'Creative Minds' sub-forum, but I've just been too busy to enter lately :(
 

-Vocal-

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How is it that Constructivist theory is to be held as as valid as Originalist when Originalist has been the functional method behind competitive gaming since the 90s?
Name another 2D fighter in which the stage significantly affects the outcome of a matchup.

I say this confident that there isn't one, but very welcoming to a suggestion if such a game exists.
 

luke_atyeo

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You don't hear people arguing for the removal of randomness in Poker. However I bet if you could remove the randomness in Poker and make the game entirely skill based, it would be done.
it already has been lol, its called chicken.
 

Zero

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Name another 2D fighter in which the stage significantly affects the outcome of a matchup.

I say this confident that there isn't one, but very welcoming to a suggestion if such a game exists.
Some levels with exceptionally wide walls can often make a difference when a character relies on corner game to win.

So, most 2d fighters, theoretically and with a massive generalisation.

Good read Vyse.
 

MetalMusicMan

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Whether it's a 2D fighter or a 3D fighter is irrelevant. Whether it's a fighter or a shooter is irrelevant. You can compare the process of stage striking, character selection, and the like quite easily between games.

There are PLENTY of games where the stage affects the outcome of a match, whether they are 2D fighters or not means absolutely nothing. Smash isn't even a "2D fighter". It's a game on a 2D playing field, but it combines the elements of a fighting game and a platform game. It is not a "2D fighter" at all, and referring to it as such is incredibly off base.

Quake, Counter Strike, Unreal Tournament, and any good shooter has stages that affect the outcome of the game.

Many of them also have various weapons to choose from, some of which are inherently superior to others. Many of which are totally useless. That doesn't warrant a ban and it doesn't stop them from playing and having a VERY healthy competitive metagame. There are AWP-banned servers in CS, but that's no different than jo-schmo TO running a DeDeDe infinite banned tourney for Brawl. It's not the standard and it isn't warranted or necessary, but some people will do it anyway.

There are games that not only have various character / stage combinations, but even more still. A great example of this is Mechwarrior, where you can have hundreds of different Mechs with thousands of weapon combinations. Many of them are, inevitably, worthless. Many are not. Nonetheless, no arbitrary rules are necessary to artificially buff the "bad" weapons and mechs or "nerf" the good ones.

I'd elaborate on this more, but I already did here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283011&page=9





The point is that we are not so unique and different and in need of "special rules" as so many people say we are. We have not "molded this game and made it what it is today" all on our own. Honestly, we have hardly done anything at all.

Brawl is a lot better "out of the box" than anyone in this community gives it credit for. It's DESIGNED to be played many ways. One of those ways is competition. This is why the game offers timed (newbie) coin (goofy) and stock (serious) game modes. Often, it is looked at as time being "the default" so if we "just go by what the game says, then we should all be playing timed with items on".

This is not correct. In smash, there are many options. All of them within the game. We are not "ignoring the game rules" when we turn off items and set it to 3 stock 8 minutes. We are using the game rules as they were intended.

Stocks are the preferred method of play for anyone who is "more serious". Sit 5 new people down in a room for a day and let them experiment with stock, time, and coin matches. If they want to play seriously, they will end up on stock matches. It's designed to be that way and self-evident.

Almost every single option that we pick is given to us as options from the game itself. Stage Select, stocks, time limit, the removal of items; these are all options that the game presents us. We did not make these things up, we are merely making the choices that the game offers us.

Many people view it as, "well, we removed items, so we should be able to make ledge grab limits or ban infinites too", but those are two very different things. There is no option in the game to remove an infinite, there is no option in the game to add a ledge grab limit.

Think about how many "fake" options we have really ever imposed on the game, exterior to "real" in-game options. The answer is, very very few. The only notable one being the choice to ignore Sudden Death.

Only in the most dire of situations should you take that approach, and only after making sure it is absolutely necessary.
 

-Vocal-

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Tekken and Soul Calibur. Technically 3-D fighters, but still. Same principles.
Dude. Not the same principles AT ALL. I would rather you answer the question I ask or give a logical argument as to why you didn't.

Smart things that MMM said
I agree with some of what you said, but not on the point that 2D and 3D games can be compared. The reason being that there are three dimensions in 3D games. Let me elaborate.

In 2D fighters, if you do move "A," then its hitbox will always cover a certain area (angled tilts would each get their own letter, of course). You cannot change where A will hit relative to your character - this is a fact. Let's say "A" is a punch that hits directly in front of me and observe what this means in relation to stages.

For the first example, I and a opponent are standing in the middle of Final Destination (I'm going to use Brawl stages as an example). If a person is 2 lengths in front of me and "A" will hit up to 3 lengths away, if I use "A" I will hit the person.

For the second example, we are standing on the slope in Yoshi's Island: Melee, and I am further up on the slope than my opponent. He is still 2 lengths in front of me, but he is now also 2 lengths below me as well. If I use "A," I will not hit him because he is below "A"'s range only goes in front of me, not below. I cannot change "A" to reach him - I can only change my position.

Now, let us turn our attention to 3D games, and let's use shooters specifically. "B" is a gun.

First, I and my opponent are standing in the middle of a flat room, facing each other. If I use "B," I will hit my opponent.

Moving on, we are still in this room, but I am now standing on a box that lifts me half a character's height off of the ground (we are both still facing each other). If I were to use "B," I would not hit him, but because this is a 3D game I can simply adjust my aim downwards and then shoot him.

This is the reason I asked for a 2D example and not a 3D example. Interaction with stages is extremely different in the two.
 

-Vocal-

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Because they are established for a different type of game. If you would like to prove that they are NOT for a different type of game, then I invite you to answer my original question: can you name another 2D fighter in which stages greatly affect matchups?
 
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I don't have to prove that they aren't not intended for smash or similar games because the stage has nothing to do with it. The principles are designed to be as far-reaching as to games like Starcraft or Super Puzzle Fighter, not just street fighter and co. Originalist theory has never been shown to be wrong on any competitive game. Better yet, seeing as you're challenging the existing standard, how about you name a game where constructivism, as opposed to originalism, has provided a significantly positive result?
 
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I'd say Halo 3.

Even though MLG stripped the majority of the weapons and stages, the game that is left over is still amazing, takes a lot of skill, and brings enormous hype.

It could be much better if they didn't strip the game so much, but for what it is, IMO, I say it's successful.
 

-Vocal-

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I don't need to prove that there is another, and quite frankly I don't believe there is one. The point is that stages have never had such a large and unavoidable impact on a 2D fighter (I say 2D fighter since 2D fighter moves are always in the same position relative to the initiator) before, and that is the reason Brawl must be set aside from them. As soon as you can name another 2D fighter where stages have such a large impact, THEN you can use that game as a basis for saying Brawl should follow the standard of 2D fighters. Until you do, the comparison is not valid.

@Action Panda: Halo is a 3D game, and I have already explained why comparison to 3D games are meaningless in this type of discussion.

I agree with some of what you said, but not on the point that 2D and 3D games can be compared. The reason being that there are three dimensions in 3D games. Let me elaborate.

In 2D fighters, if you do move "A," then its hitbox will always cover a certain area (angled tilts would each get their own letter, of course). You cannot change where A will hit relative to your character - this is a fact. Let's say "A" is a punch that hits directly in front of me and observe what this means in relation to stages.

For the first example, I and a opponent are standing in the middle of Final Destination (I'm going to use Brawl stages as an example). If a person is 2 lengths in front of me and "A" will hit up to 3 lengths away, if I use "A" I will hit the person.

For the second example, we are standing on the slope in Yoshi's Island: Melee, and I am further up on the slope than my opponent. He is still 2 lengths in front of me, but he is now also 2 lengths below me as well. If I use "A," I will not hit him because he is below "A"'s range only goes in front of me, not below. I cannot change "A" to reach him - I can only change my position.

Now, let us turn our attention to 3D games, and let's use shooters specifically. "B" is a gun.

First, I and my opponent are standing in the middle of a flat room, facing each other. If I use "B," I will hit my opponent.

Moving on, we are still in this room, but I am now standing on a box that lifts me half a character's height off of the ground (we are both still facing each other). If I were to use "B," I would not hit him, but because this is a 3D game I can simply adjust my aim downwards and then shoot him.

This is the reason I asked for a 2D example and not a 3D example. Interaction with stages is extremely different in the two.
 
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I don't need to prove that there is another, and quite frankly I don't believe there is one. The point is that stages have never had such a large and unavoidable impact on a 2D fighter (I say 2D fighter since 2D fighter moves are always in the same position relative to the initiator) before, and that is the reason Brawl must be set aside from them. As soon as you can name another 2D fighter where stages have such a large impact, THEN you can use that game as a basis for saying Brawl should follow the standard of 2D fighters. Until you do, the comparison is not valid.
Yes, except you're forgetting something. Sirlin's competitive guidelines are not 2D-fighter-exclusive. They apply to any game. And almost every one follows them. Chess, Starcraft, Magic: The Gathering, Poker, every 2D Fighter...

I'd say Halo 3.

Even though MLG stripped the majority of the weapons and stages, the game that is left over is still amazing, takes a lot of skill, and brings enormous hype.

It could be much better if they didn't strip the game so much, but for what it is, IMO, I say it's successful.
But would it be better if they had gone at it with an originalist philosophy?
 

-Vocal-

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Yes, except you're forgetting something. Sirlin's competitive guidelines are not 2D-fighter-exclusive. They apply to any game. And almost every one follows them. Chess, Starcraft, Magic: The Gathering, Poker, every 2D Fighter...
How is it that Constructivist theory is to be held as as valid as Originalist when Originalist has been the functional method behind competitive gaming since the 90s?
This was your question to me, and I can only assume that this was concerning Brawl, as anything else doesn't matter to this threads conversation.

I have explained to you why the Constructivist theory can be held as valid. Unless you can provide another competitive 2D fighter in which stages have such a large impact on matchups and in which the Constructivist theory was entirely invalid.
 
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You have? Is it in this thread? I must have missed it (or I'm forgetting it).

When I say "Originalist has been the functional method behind competitive gaming since the 90s" I'm not reducing competitive gaming to 2D fighters, or even to fighters. I'm saying all games played competitively. This is why A_P's example with Halo 3 is relevant, and why I deem it worthwhile to question that further.

EDIT: Yeah, hard to tell... But I don't know :(
 
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